Need for Speed (mostly what this post is about) with a couple suggestions
Another day, another hour wasted trying figure out how to fix something that's not working as it should in Logos. Only to get to the end of that hour and find out in a forum that this has been a problem for nearly a decade, and no one's wiling to fix it.
I'm spending a lot of money every month paying off Logos, and will continue to...
...but I'm sure glad I kept Accordance after I "switched" a year ago. I'd love to remove those air quotes from "switched," but I never really switched—I have to keep Accordance open the whole time I'm using Logos. Logos runs way too slow on the $2000 MacBook I bought for the purpose of having a computer fast enough to run Logos — so slow I'm constantly app switching over to Accordance in frustration to copy a verse or run a simple search. (2018 MacBook Pro Touchbar Quadcore 16GB)
By slow and buggy I mean Logos is by a long shot the slowest and buggiest app of all I have on my computer. Menu button presses, very basic searches are sluggish. With a few other apps open, I can get the spinning beachball with simple screen scrolls! Right mouse clicks that don't even register because Logos was still busy thinking about the fact that I highlighted a word.
Logos developers must be frustrated by how slow their own app runs. Can the developers at Faithlife actually point me to an app on their own Macs that runs slower than Logos? This is a serious question. I've never seen an app on my Mac run this slow in 11 years.
Maybe it's just a different approach to computing. As an Apple user, I'm used to well designed apps that simply work — basic functionality is a must. Sure, slow down when you're doing difficult tasks, but Apple apps don't feel like they're falling apart simply driving down the road. Logos feels like its always on the edge of getting hung up on the most basic things.
Logos is looking more and more like it's designed to be a well-featured toy aimed at enthusiasts — not a tool for professionals to bang out their work.
Not a hater. I want Logos to work, to win. Fix known bugs, and make up for missing basic features (see my posts on copy/paste). Almost more than anything, I need SPEED from Logos for my weekly exegetical and research deadlines. SPEED! In my life, I won't be able to learn all the advanced features that Logos presently has, but every single minute I'm wishing Logos had more SPEED on the most simple and basic user interface items.
Suggestions for speed:
1. Do what Apple does. They devote every other hardware and software release to SPEED. Like screen scrolling speed. Window opening speed. Since Logos needs to catch up, how about Logos 9 and 10 just for SPEED. I'd buy it. Just get marketing to repackage and rename some of the hundred features that people haven't even touched in 8 and it can even seem like new features.
2. Buy Accordance. The company. Maybe the reason Logos lacks SPEED is because Accordance owns it. Start a Go-Fund-Me to hire away their top engineer. Who bought the Bibleworks patents? I remember that being a fast program.
At the end of the day, I'm ranting against a software application that I greatly appreciate made by people who are excellent and talented. At the end of the day, my beef is likely caused by carefully considered business decisions at Logos OR simply some app design strategies I don't share.
Thanks for anyone who's listening!
Comments
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phrogger said:
At the end of the day, I'm ranting against a software application that I greatly appreciate made by people who are excellent and talented. At the end of the day, my beef is likely caused by carefully considered business decisions at Logos OR simply some app design strategies I don't share.
And to keep things in perspective, I don't mind that Logos runs slow with the exception of the drop-down pick-lists. What puts me in a rant is the incomplete datasets and nearly non-existent support for lectionaries/multiple passages. I have seen progress, although slow, in bother the areas of your concerns and mine. As for the Apple/PC debate ... I've stayed out of that ever since the promised compiler for the first Mac failed to materialize.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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phrogger said:
By slow and buggy I mean Logos is by a long shot the slowest and buggiest app of all I have on my computer. Menu button presses, very basic searches are sluggish. With a few other apps open, I can get the spinning beachball with simple screen scrolls! Right mouse clicks that don't even register because Logos was still busy thinking about the fact that I highlighted a word.
Logos developers must be frustrated by how slow their own app runs. Can the developers at Faithlife actually point me to an app on their own Macs that runs slower than Logos? This is a serious question. I've never seen an app on my Mac run this slow in 11 years.
Greeting phrogger...
It is sad to read of your experiences with Logos. I am, admittedly a light user of the programme on my MacBook Pro which is similar to yours. I experience none of the problems that you are highlighting.
It might be useful for you to post your 'logs' on this thread (using the paperclip in the tool bar above) and let one of the techs see just where the bottleneck is occurring.
Although your experience I think is atypical there was some concern about slow running a few months ago across all platforms and that was eventually ameliorated by a cull of inefficient collection rules that were hogging processor time. You might like to check this area of the program on your machine.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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phrogger said:
By slow and buggy I mean Logos is by a long shot the slowest and buggiest app of all I have on my computer. Menu button presses, very basic searches are sluggish. With a few other apps open, I can get the spinning beachball with simple screen scrolls! Right mouse clicks that don't even register because Logos was still busy thinking about the fact that I highlighted a word.
No-one here will argue that Logos is speedy, but it's worth you knowing that slowness to this extent is very unusual. It's likely that there is something specific about the way that your machine is reconfigured, or the way that you're using Logos that is triggering the problem. When Logos is as slow as you describe, very often, it's possible to see significant speed improvements with some simple changes.
If you want us to try and help you with that, we're willing to do so. Just say so, and I'll follow up with some questions that will help us diagnose what's going on.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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phrogger said:
1. Do what Apple does. They devote every other hardware and software release to SPEED. Like screen scrolling speed. Window opening speed. Since Logos needs to catch up, how about Logos 9 and 10 just for SPEED. I'd buy it. Just get marketing to repackage and rename some of the hundred features that people haven't even touched in 8 and it can even seem like new features.
There are ways of speeding Logos up, well ok make it run as fast as it can. For instance if you use one of the guides you can close down all result areas in the exegetical guide and then open up the particular area you want to look at things move along a lot faster. Also I use the information pane a lot but I have set my system so that I have to click instead of hover on a word before logos searches. Also I am not sure if your machine has a SSD. If it hasn't I would really recommend this because it makes a massive speed increase.
I am upgrading soon to a 8th Gen i7 but the general performance on my 4th gen i7 doesn't seem that bad when clicking menus, scrolling etc. It can always be faster of course but clicks cause pretty much instant responses from the computer unless I am searching. If you are getting a big lag on basic operation it may be worth speaking to Faithlife support because it seems to indicate something unusual may be going on.
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phrogger said:
devote every other hardware and software release to SPEED
I can vote for that.
One of the ironies of the software is that some of the designed features have to be deleted or removed because they slow things down (fully admitted by FL), like having visual filters built even if they are not used at the time, or having a lot of collections built. At one point, I had to delete dozens of collections after I was told the fact they are resident slows the software down. That was a bummer.
So I'd vote for some attention paid to making the features (that are resident but not being used) not slow things down.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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phrogger said:
$2000 MacBook
Dave Thawley said:Also I am not sure if your machine has a SSD.
Kidding?! 😜
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Mark B. and others, I appreciate that you've taken the time to respond!
I've run at least two versions of Logos across at least two machines, with many updates in between — all slow — so I have a hard time thinking it's some wrong config on my machine. Especially with all the other complaints of general Logos speed problems.
We are really past the era of laggy software. The eras of phones and tablets has killed people's patience for that.
Are there any former Accordance users that don't think Logos runs dog-slow?
Can anyone point to another app in the Mac App Store that runs slower than Logos?
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phrogger said:
I've run at least two versions of Logos across at least two machines, with many updates in between — all slow — so I have a hard time thinking it's some wrong config on my machine. Especially with all the other complaints of general Logos speed problems.
Logs?
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:
Logs?
I'm not really interested in being a beta-tester.
I think what I'm asking for is a culture change at FaithLife. Make your app as fast as your competitor's.
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phrogger said:Mike Binks said:
Logs?
I'm not really interested in being a beta-tester.
I think what I'm asking for is a culture change at FaithLife. Make your app as fast as your competitor's.
Yes, on not auto-logs (no offense to Mike)! Can't a self-respecting coder, ask the app to read/diagnose? Assist the user without the user joining Ignatius in the lion's den?
How many apps have a cadre of users who know error logs better than the app itself?
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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phrogger said:
I think what I'm asking for is a culture change at FaithLife. Make your app as fast as your competitor's.
Unfortunately, other Mac users have responded quite favorably about speed. My $US600 Windows laptop is an i5-8250 with SSD, 8 GB RAM and it runs both L7 and L8 very well. So it's not about having the fastest, high-end computer available, even amongst Windows users with similar issues about speed.
If you don't want to post logs (which is about problem-solving, not being a tester), see if Customer Service can assist you.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for responding to my post!
You're right, it's not about having fast computers. Before this, I had a slow MacBook Air — Logos ran dog-slow on that, too.
The Mac users I'd love to hear from are former Accordance users who now use Logos for their work—meaning they need it to perform well, within certain time constraints and the kind of deadlines that make sluggish apps frustrating.
Talking to Customer Service is an option. But why not rather let the good people at FaithLife spend that time working on a plan to make Logos faster, for everyone?
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HI phrogger,
I'm sorry you're not getting the performance from Logos you're expecting. I've reached out to you over email.
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I'd be interested to know what using Logos is like on an iPad Pro. I can't imagine the mobile version of Logos could be slow, as well. There's even less tolerance for slow apps in iOS.
Maybe this is a generational thing. What's the average age of a Logos user? Like one user said, speed is relative. What's fast for one user might be slow for another user. I'm old enough to remember when most apps ran slow, but I don't have any apps like that now (except Logos).
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phrogger said:
I'd be interested to know what using Logos is like on an iPad Pro
It's fine - in general - but it is a very different (reduced functionality from the desktop) app
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phrogger said:
Mark B. and others, I appreciate that you've taken the time to respond!
I've run at least two versions of Logos across at least two machines, with many updates in between — all slow — so I have a hard time thinking it's some wrong config on my machine. Especially with all the other complaints of general Logos speed problems.
Sorry for the delay in replying.
If you have run Logos on two decent spec machines, and it's as slow as you say on both, that means it's likely that it's the way you're using Logos that is contributing to the problem. (I'm not blaming you for that, but because of its flexibility, Logos does allow you to do things that are detrimental to performance.)
I know you don't want to upload logs, but that (and perhaps screencasts) are the only way to diagnose what's wrong, and perhaps suggest ways in which performance could be increased.
phrogger said:Can anyone point to another app in the Mac App Store that runs slower than Logos?
There simply isn't another app like Logos (i.e. there isn't another product that is essentially a collection of dozens of huge multi-gigabyte disparate databases all overlaid on top of each other), that you can interact with using a powerful graphical UI.
phrogger said:We are really past the era of laggy software.
Yes, and no. Certain apps will also be designed to push the limits of currently available hardware. Games are the obvious example. Video-editing is another. And database servers are a third.
phrogger said:Are there any former Accordance users that don't think Logos runs dog-slow?
I have Accordance, and whilst I do tend to find it a bit faster than Logos, I certainly wouldn't describe Logos as dog-slow. That's why we think it worth diagnosing the issue.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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phrogger said:Mike Binks said:
Logs?
I'm not really interested in being a beta-tester.
I think what I'm asking for is a culture change at FaithLife. Make your app as fast as your competitor's.
People are wanting to help you because the vast majority are not sharing your experience. That's why logs are necessary to try and get to the bottom of your issue.
That being said, you stated that they should make their app as fast as their competitors. That assumes that their competitor's apps do the same things that Logos does and I assure you, they do not.
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phrogger said:
Can anyone point to another app in the Mac App Store that runs slower than Logos?
Yep: iTunes.
Years ago I was guilty of comparing the L4 experience to iTunes, But hey, back then it kind of was the same! While iTunes hasn't improved much, Logos certainly has. Good grief. I have L8 on 3 machines of various vintage and they are all reasonably fast--better than iTunes by a country mile. I want to say "snappy" but I can't really say that yet.
In short, I am seeing offers to help you have the kind of happy experience I and others are enjoying. Help us help you.0 -
Thanks Mark. I appreciate the dialogue.
Mark Barnes said:Certain apps will also be designed to push the limits of currently available hardware. Games are the obvious example. Video-editing is another. And database servers are a third.
Great examples — Logos is none of those. It's doing nothing that should push the limits of hardware.
Mark Barnes said:a powerful graphical UI.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I know what you mean. Pie charts? Lists of words? The graphics in Logos are extremely basic compared to a game. Like your above example, there are apps out there that should push the limits of hardware — word search and sorting isn't high on that list.
And, I can't emphasize enough — I'm not really talking about intense searches. My biggest problem is that Logos is slow with most basic things.
Here's a short list of the functions that Logos should be able to do eye-blink-INSTANTLY
Typing a resource into the top search bar, with suggestions showing up — INSTANTLY
Hover over a word to see corresponding word colored — INSTANTLY
Right clicking a word and seeing more info — INSTANTLY
Scrolling — INSTANTLY
One word Bible searches — INSTANTLY
Two word Bible searches — INSTANTLY
Double clicking a word to open a new resource — INSTANTLY
Logos does none of these instantly. Some of them take 1 second, some take 2 seconds. Some initially work well (like scrolling or word hovering), but do it aggressively and Logos will stutter, then stall.
All of these are eye-blink-instant in Accordance. Because that's the argument, right? "You're complaining that Logos is slow doing things that Accordance can't even do." No, I'm complaining about things that almost all apps are expected to do instantly.
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phrogger said:
Thanks Mark. I appreciate the dialogue.
Mark Barnes said:Certain apps will also be designed to push the limits of currently available hardware. Games are the obvious example. Video-editing is another. And database servers are a third.
Great examples — Logos is none of those. It's doing nothing that should push the limits of hardware.
Mark Barnes said:a powerful graphical UI.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I know what you mean. Pie charts? Lists of words? The graphics in Logos are extremely basic compared to a game. Like your above example, there are apps out there that should push the limits of hardware — word search and sorting isn't high on that list.
And, I can't emphasize enough — I'm not really talking about intense searches. My biggest problem is that Logos is slow with most basic things.
Here's a short list of the functions that Logos should be able to do eye-blink-INSTANTLY
Typing a resource into the top search bar, with suggestions showing up — INSTANTLY
Hover over a word to see corresponding word colored — INSTANTLY
Right clicking a word and seeing more info — INSTANTLY
Scrolling — INSTANTLY
One word Bible searches — INSTANTLY
Two word Bible searches — INSTANTLY
Double clicking a word to open a new resource — INSTANTLY
Logos does none of these instantly. Some of them take 1 second, some take 2 seconds. Some initially work well (like scrolling or word hovering), but do it aggressively and Logos will stutter, then stall.
All of these are eye-blink-instant in Accordance. Because that's the argument, right? "You're complaining that Logos is slow doing things that Accordance can't even do." No, I'm complaining about things that almost all apps are expected to do instantly.
None of us can really help get to the bottom of your isolated (most people are not having these issues) problem unless you upload your program logs.
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Thanks, GaoLu,
I don't use iTunes much (Spotify is my go to), but I opened it and gave it a try for a few minutes. I didn't notice much that seemed slow. Mouse clicks registered, menus opened and closed instantly. I did notice that some resources took a half second to open, but I think that's because they're not stored locally on my computer.
Yes, snappy is what Logos should be with the most basic user interface features. Absolutely immediate in some things. Kind of like Accordance!
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Isolated?
It seems like there's been quite a lot of people over the years that admit that Logos is not "snappy."
Logos is slow. And I don't even care if it's slow for complicated searches.
I care that it's slow doing very basic things that all other apps do instantly.
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phrogger said:
Logos does none of these instantly. Some of them take 1 second, some take 2 seconds. Some initially work well (like scrolling or word hovering), but do it aggressively and Logos will stutter, then stall. ...
Mark and Dave know about this more than I do (software history), but going back to 2008 before Logos4, the software is largely hand-coded against a graphics base. I'm over-generalizing. But at one time, you could visably track the inefficiencies in the code. Each update, you could also often see a peter-paul balancing, the net being little. Apparently they did more on L8, but after 4 previous 'this is better!' I'll stay.
On my set up, Logos5 was the most efficient (I think the last 32bit). Since then, worse, especially searches (start to 1st stop-able).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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phrogger said:
Isolated?
It seems like there's been quite a lot of people over the years that admit that Logos is not "snappy."
Logos is slow. And I don't even care if it's slow for complicated searches.
I care that it's slow doing very basic things that all other apps do instantly.
Yes, Isolated. We aren't talking about over the years, we are talking about Logos 8 and MOST people have reported significant speed increases. Obviously, mileage will vary based on your system. But it is not excruciatingly slow like it used to be which is why we have asked several times for your logs.
Something with your installation seems to not be working as it should but nobody can diagnose the issue if you don't send the logs. I'm not really sure why the hesitation to send those. Do you need help getting the logs?
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🙂
I probably will need help getting them.
My hesitation has been that I really don't think it's the job of the user to fix the app for the developer.
I do appreciate the kind offers to help, David T. and others.
And even though I hope my puny comments might influence development plans for L9 or L10, in reality, I want Logos to run faster THIS WEEK.
So, sure — how do I do this log thing? I might not be able to respond right away, but I'll try to fit it in over the next few days.
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phrogger said:
My hesitation has been that I really don't think it's the job of the user to fix the app for the developer.
This is true to a point, but if they don't know what the problem is (not everyone experiences this) they can't know how to fix it. That's why they ask for logs so they can see what is going on.
Here is a link that tells you how to upload logs: https://wiki.logos.com/Diagnostic_Logging
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phrogger said:Mark Barnes said:
Certain apps will also be designed to push the limits of currently available hardware. Games are the obvious example. Video-editing is another. And database servers are a third.
Great examples — Logos is none of those.
It is. Logos is a database (or rather, a collection of hundreds of databases, totalling many gigabytes in size).
phrogger said:The reference to a powerful graphical UI was in comparison with other database software. When I use SQL Server Management Studio, for example, I have to type in SQL commands by hand, and I'll get the results in a simple table. Compared to that, Logos has a powerful graphical UI. In fact, it's UI is so good, you didn't even recognise it as a database!
I'll say again, Logos isn't quick. It isn't as quick as Accordance, and it certainly isn't as quick as Bibleworks. That said, in normal use, on decent hardware (like yours) it isn't terribly slow either. That's why lots of us think something is out of the ordinary for you.
phrogger said:All of these are eye-blink-instant in Accordance. Because that's the argument, right? "You're complaining that Logos is slow doing things that Accordance can't even do." No, I'm complaining about things that almost all apps are expected to do instantly.
Logos and Accordance have a difference philosophy in lots of areas. For example, in my opinion, Accordance is ugly. No matter what I do with the text display settings, I can't get anywhere near the same standard of typography as I get out of the box with Logos, even though I've much more control in Accordance. Neither can I get any of the Logos custom highlight styles in Accordance. None of that might matter much to you, but to some people (including me) it makes a huge difference to how well I read on screen. But the trade off is that the technology Logos uses to display all this is significantly slower than the very basic technology that Accordance uses. It might make the difference between Accordance displaying the text instantly, and Logos displaying the text in 0.25s. To me that 0.25s is well worth it. To you it might not be. That's the choice we both make. But we have to choose. We can't have world-class typography and world-class speed at the same time.
I could say similar things (for example) to the speed of the right-click menu. Logos has chosen to load the right-click menu with all kinds of data. I can see, at a glance, the lemma, the root, the sense, the LN number, the strong's number, the people speaking or mentioned, not to mention all kinds of labelling. The vast majority of that simply isn't available in Accordance, but it does slow Logos down. I'll be honest in saying that I think the right-click menu is overloaded. I'd love a leaner right-click menu that (for example) shows the lemmas and roots, but didn't show the labels, and therefor was quicker. But my point here is simply to say that Logos and Accordance are doing different things. Logos' right-click menu in a Bible probably queries at least 10 separate databases, and a couple of online databases. I don't think Accordance's right-click menu queries any databases at all.
None of this is to say that Logos is necessarily superior to Accordance (although it's certainly my preference). But generally, when the Logos developers are faced with the choice of adding functionality or quality at the expense of speed, then nine times out of ten, they'll choose to add the functionality and quality.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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phrogger said:
Here's a short list of the functions that Logos should be able to do eye-blink-INSTANTLY
Typing a resource into the top search bar, with suggestions showing up — INSTANTLY
Hover over a word to see corresponding word colored — INSTANTLY
Right clicking a word and seeing more info — INSTANTLY
Scrolling — INSTANTLY
One word Bible searches — INSTANTLY
Two word Bible searches — INSTANTLY
Double clicking a word to open a new resource — INSTANTLY
Logos does none of these instantly. Some of them take 1 second, some take 2 seconds.
Almost none of these will happen “instantly” in Logos, even on the fastest hardware. Almost all these operations load data from disk, and if the target is “instantly” then performing any I/O at all means you've already missed the goal.
If your complaint is that they take 1–2 seconds, not 1–2 milliseconds, then we probably don't need to see logs, because your system sounds like it’s performing as designed. As Mark said, many operations in Logos are designed to take a little bit of time in order to bring back more information.
(Scrolling should be instant; if you’re seeing beachballs, something may well be wrong. One-word Bible searches should be as quick as ¼ second; if they’re significantly slower, something may be wrong there, too.)
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Thanks, Mark. I appreciate your response.
I mean, I really don't know these things, but when I hear about people needing fast computers it's typically for gaming or video editing, not database processing.
And you almost lost me with the mention of SQL Server Management Studio. I had to look it up. I agree — Logos is light years ahead of that thing! What I'm thinking is that we shouldn't be even comparing Logos to things like SQL Server Mana....
Accordance is pretty ugly, agreed.
Logos has a nice look. I'm so glad you mentioned the importance of typography, and couldn't agree with you more.
Mark Barnes said:We can't have world-class typography and world-class speed at the same time.
Really? Is this the heavy graphics Logos is bogging down on? The (admittedly) pretty letters? Should great typography need to be slow?
Mark Barnes said:But generally, when the Logos developers are faced with the choice of adding functionality or quality at the expense of speed, then nine times out of ten, they'll choose to add the functionality and quality
Yes, it's all trade-offs. But when the "functionality" you offer causes your speed to lag in the most basic things (screen scrolls, double clicks, hovers, resource opening, etc.), you've chosen poorly. Or, at least you've made a design choice that I don't prefer (which is what I said in my initial post).
Logos reached out to me (as have other forum users for log help). I'm going to find some time next week to submit to that process.
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Thanks for your reply, Bradley!
By "instantly," I mean faster than I can get my finger off the button I just pressed. Instant-enough. I'm sure there's stuff out there about when lag time becomes noticeable and annoying for users vs. when it's fast enough. Like, as I'm typing this, the letters are appearing "instantly."
I think 1 or 2 seconds is a problem when it comes to some things like scrolling, or right click even registering, or hovering for corresponding word.
The problem is exacerbated because Logos seems to get stressed more easily than other apps. Again, I have no complaint about Logos taking 10 seconds to run a search that took me 10 minutes to design. My concern is that Logos is the first of all my apps to bog down and then go beachball over core functions, such as highlighting a word, or triple clicking a resource, scrolling, etc.
Why can't Logos be designed so that these the most basic user interface functions stay fast — always. When I compare Logos to Accordance, my comparison is not in areas where Logos is designed to do more, what I'm asking is why can't Logos be just as fast as Accordance in the most basic user interface functions?
[A good person from Logos and other forum users reached out to me about logs, and I will give that a shot next week to see if the problem is my computer. I'm skeptical, as I've run multiple versions of Logos on multiple computers, with the same observations]
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