Angry God

(stretching the forum guidlines, if this gets deleted, I understand)

I'm studying God's grace, and the question of God's anger has been coming up. Below are 2 resources from L4 - one a book quote, one a list from a search.

The question - can a loving God that has my best interest at heart really be angry enough to pour his anger out on a person or group of people.

I am not the crazy man on TV that says God is punishing Haiti for sins with an earthquake, not inferring that, in fact, I guess I am asking how do you intellectually debunk that crap . The question might be asked - how is God's love shown when he floods the whole world and kills everyone except Noah and crew?

Maybe a list of resources that you have read that have helped you deal with this would keep it inbounds.

Couple of resources I've looked at (I've looked at a lot more, just throwing something in).

libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL:0<CAT891.B.2.C>.0.0|res=LLS:COLLINSTHESBBL

libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL:0<PT.1.2>.2.0|res=LLS:40.170.4

If you think this is out of bounds let me know, I will delete it.

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Kevin Becker

My response to this would probably stretch the forum guidelines too far. drop me a line at beckerkr AT gmail dot com

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104528#Comment_104528

I can offer a book that helped me a lot with this question (hardcopy only, not Logos format - sorry) -

"How Big Is Your God?: The Freedom to Experience the Divine" by Paul Coutinho

http://www.amazon.com/How-Big-Your-God-Experience/dp/0829424814/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268743545&sr=8-1

it's a very easy read, but very inspiring...

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104534#Comment_104534

Logos has this Carson work:

http://www.logos.com/products/details/4482

actually, that is a collection, and his title is: "How Long, O Lord?" It deals with pain and suffering. Two other works I appreciate: (not in Logos-Yet)-- "Disappointment with God" by Philipp Yancey and "the Problem of Pain" by CS Lewis. These should at least get you started.

From a positive perspective, I like Robert Webbers approach to telling the story of God: creation/incarnation/re-creation. That comes up in a number of his books, whether The Divine Embrace (not Logos) or "Ancient Future WOrship" (in Logos) and others. You balance the very narrow "what do you do about suffering" with seeing God's overall heart and personal investment in his rebellious creation.

Another book most here will consider "heretical" is John Sander's "the God who Risks." you may not agree with much, but he does give some interesting, and I think valuable insights into the side of God that experiences pain and sadness (among many other things)

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104544#Comment_104544

I'm not sure what an appropriate "non-rule-breaking" answer is but one thing to remember (at least from my perspective) is the relationship between what we deserve, and what we get from God.

If we start from the idea that God owes men nothing, that every breath is a merciful gift...then when things go wrong, we are thankful...we see that He is God and we are not.

I'll look around my Logos library and see what resources i can come up with...

As far as the Haiti thing? Ah...no comment....I've not really thought about that aspect of it...

EDITED TO ADD: I just did a search on "natural disasters" in my systematic theology collection and that would seem a good place to start...I got a few good relevant hits.

I have Robert Reymonds systematic theology, Wayne Gruedems, and Shedd's, and a few others.

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104550#Comment_104550

Hesitant to say thank you yet, because I would like even more input and thank you might infer that I'm all settled on this.

But thank you all for your input. Good input on the searches, and books, all things I had not touched yet.

Keith Larson

Michael,

All the suggestions you have gotten so far are really good ones, the only thing I could add is to suggest you get into the habit of questioning your own pre-supposition's as well. For example: "Does a loving God love everyone the same way?" "Does God really have everyone's best interest at heart?" "Is anger incompatible with love?"

Question everything, but most of all question yourself. Your goal is to get your presuppositions in line with the God's revealed truth, not society's.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104559#Comment_104559

Question everything, but most of all question yourself. Your goal is to get your presuppositions in line with the God's revealed truth, not society's.

[Y]

Mark Barnes

The question might be asked - how is God's love shown when he floods the whole world and kills everyone except Noah and crew?

This came up in our Bible study the other week from 2 Thess 1:8. I think the only answer is that:

God loves justice and righteousness, and therefore justly punishes what/who is wrong.
God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. In relation to Christ and those punished in the flood, see 1 Peter 3:18-20 (though that is admittedly tricky to interpret). The important points are: the message of repentance was proclaimed, God was patient, but righteousness must prevail.

When we studied 2 Thessalonians last week, one of the things that came up was that God was promised to put things right at the end. In his patience and love he was willing to let the church suffer persecution in order that he could exercise patience towards the persecutors. I think it is in this context that Paul elsewhere talks about sharing in Christ's sufferings.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104559#Comment_104559

All the suggestions you have gotten so far are really good ones, the only thing I could add is to suggest you get into the habit of questioning your own pre-supposition's as well. For example: "Does a loving God love everyone the same way?" "Does God really have everyone's best interest at heart?" "Is anger incompatible with love?"

Question everything, but most of all question yourself. Your goal is to get your presuppositions in line with the God's revealed truth, not society's.

very well said [Y]

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104559#Comment_104559

Michael,

All the suggestions you have gotten so far are really good ones, the only thing I could add is to suggest you get into the habit of questioning your own pre-supposition's as well. For example: "Does a loving God love everyone the same way?" "Does God really have everyone's best interest at heart?" "Is anger incompatible with love?"

Question everything, but most of all question yourself. Your goal is to get your presuppositions in line with the God's revealed truth, not society's.

Good points. Yes, my anger is incompatible with love, but I'm not God - and Jesus was obvious angry at times. Lets avoid the predestination/choice discussion here. [:)]

Actually the reason I am asking the question is I am challenging my presupposition's. I can answer my own question in seminary speak (that's kind of a sad comment on me), I can say, God sees the big picture I don't. I can quote "God brings rain on the just and unjust".

But to practically answer the question - If God loves and pursues us, explain the flood - I'm struggling with that. I think struggling with this is a good thing.

Just to keep from getting too our of bounds - besides searching for angry God (95642 results in .54 sec) natural disasters (5770 results in .88 sec), what are some other things you would suggest I search for to help with this study?

Thank you all for input, it's been very helpful. L4 is so great for this type of study and search.

But that does not mean stop posting on this!

Dr. Charles A. Wootten

Below are 2 resources from L4 - one a book quote, one a list from a search.

The question - can a loving God that has my best interest at heart really be angry enough to pour his anger out on a person or group of people.

I'm not sure why this question keeps popping up among biblically literate people, but it does.

That said, before anyone gets upset about the "poor, picked-upon, abused" Canaanites to start another thread, check out Deuteronomy 9:4-6 then work out the fact that there were only 7 people groups that met God's criteria for annihilation. And that He gave them about 650 years to repent before Joshua went in. But, Joshua didn't succeed.

And that said, one of the coolest answers ever to this question was made by Christopher J.H. Wright (2008) The God I Don't Understand, Zondervan, ISBN 978-0-310-27546-6. I'll quote a short selection, but it must simply be read in its entirety to understand his premise. The italics in the paragraph are the author's, not mine. (He even addresses natural disasters, too!)

"God with his infinite perspective, and for reasons known only to himself, knows that we finite beings cannot, indeed must not, "make sense" of evil. For the final truth is that evil does not make sense. "Sense" is part of our rationality that in itself is part of God's good creation and God's image in us. So, evil can have no sense, since sense itself is a good thing."

He goes on, "Evil has no proper place within creation. It has no validity, no truth, no integrity. It does not intrinsically belong to the creation as God originally made it nor will it belong to creation as God will ultimately redeem it. It cannot and must not be integrated into the universe as a rational, legitimated, justified part of reality. Evil is not there to be understood, but to be resisted and ultimately expelled. Evil was and remains an intruder, an alien presence that has made itself almost (but not finally) inextricably "at home.' Evil is beyond our understanding because it is not part of the ultimate reality that God in his perfect wisdom and utter truthfulness intends us to understand" (p.48).

So, where is the sense in the results of evil? It's not that God doesn't give us an answer, Wright says. In fact, "we get no answer. We get silence. And that silence is the answer to our question. There is no sense."

And, boys and girls, that gives us the right to stand before His throne and yell and scream and cry and kick when horrible things happen. Don't believe me? Read the Book of Psalms very slowly and carefully. We are allowed to yell at God and God even gives us the words to use in our anger, pain, etc.

It is not that He pours out His anger on individuals or people groups, evil simply happens. He hasn't deserted us; it just ain't time for the second Parousia. Until then we simply trust the primary reason Jesus came: to destroy the works of the evil one (1 John 3:8b) at the Cross. That done, now we simply occupy until He comes. Then comes God's righteous anger and punishment. The interesting thing is that the world gets a fair trial first, unlike the Flood...

God bless

{charley}

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104659#Comment_104659

Actually the reason I am asking the question is I am challenging my presupposition's. I can answer my own question in seminary speak (that's kind of a sad comment on me), I can say, God sees the big picture I don't. I can quote "God brings rain on the just and unjust".

yeah, it is pretty easy to "answer" it. It is another thing to live it.

Btw, HOW do you quote multiple people in the same post? I have seen that done, just not how it is done. Is it by Edit? (that is another thing. I don't get . . . how I type things in the "edit" box and they don't appear.)

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104770#Comment_104770

And that said, one of the coolest answers ever to this question was made by Christopher J.H. Wright (2008) The God I Don't Understand, Zondervan, ISBN 978-0-310-27546-6.

i did not know about this book, but I like Wright quite a bit. And I have noticed he contributed several articles I have read in the ABD.

Read the Book of Psalms very slowly and carefully

It was during an extremely difficult time for me that I grew to love the Psalms. Ps. 88 was a wonder for me: pretty dark, start to finish. And that was where I was. It was comforting that an inspired writer "felt" like I did. The Psalms gave expression to my inner turmoil and longing. Ps. 130. etc.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104788#Comment_104788

HOW do you quote multiple people in the same post?

Here's one way... Have a 2nd copy of the window open in another tab... start answering / citing multiple folks there, & cut-and-paste the quoted text into your "real" answer here...

Blessings!

Jeremy White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104790#Comment_104790

I think it would be also worthwhile to look at passages that talk about our jealous God and examine why He might be so.

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104770#Comment_104770

I'm not sure why this question keeps popping up among biblically literate people, but it does.

Charlie, I do not think I was clear at all. I have a good grasp on good and evil in the world, and the consequences of that. I understand "why" I did the funeral for one of my closest friends last year who was killed by a stray bullet while driving home with her daughter and mother-in-law. Why - some sinful person with a gun was being stupid, and it caused her death. I don't like that answer, and it does not make any sense (to reference your quote), but it's not hard to understand sin and evil, just hard to accept.

The way you word your quote above .... I take it as a little condescending (but I am kind of thin skinned for some reason). I would say "thank God people are asking questions, deepening their faith."

The question I am trying to ask, and what the quote you attached does not reference this (unless I am missing your point), is why God kills. God sent the flood. He did not say sin and evil have their natural consequences, He did not say it's a "natural disaster". He said, enough, time for them to die (that would of course be taken from the Mike Birney paraphrased translation - not to be trusted) libronixdls:jump|ref=bible.82.2.5|res=LLS:1.0.710 2 Peter 2:5 says it well - 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;.

God brought the flood - and I even say He has the right to do that - I'm not complaining (as if He needs my approval). But how does Love (God is love) fit into flood. I think is is about finishing this sentence - For God so loved the world that he flooded it killing all but 7 because -

Maybe that is the wrong question, or maybe there is an answer for this, I need to settle it in my mind. I am willing to do more study - just needed more direction in that study.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104790#Comment_104790

for me, answer didn't mean a whole lot. Answers were too trite, too simple. I read a ton of things, including CS Lewis' "A grief observed", Ecclesiastes, biographies, 1/2 Kings, pretty much the whole Bible looking for nuggets, looking for the unknowns,the uncertainties, seeing how people dealt with life and God when things didn't work out as they expected.

I did a lot of shouting, cursing, crying, whimpering, withdrawing, searching, freaking out, all the while just saying somewhere in the middle of all that: "God, if you hear me, hold on to me." And somehow, building blocks of trust where set in place in a variety of ways, over time. There is often no "one answer." (yes, ultimately God, but no one "pat answer). It was the steady example of faith of some, the small reminder of tenderness (even in the harsh/capricious world I was seeing), a portion of scripture, a momentary "sense" that God was there with me amid the chaos, a return of small pieces of joy, a biography of someone like George Muller (place your community pricing bid!) or E. Stanley Jones etc etc. In the end, you grow (or, "I" grew) to reaffirm scripture, to reaffirm God's goodness, and just learn to trust in Him when it pretty much all sucks or doesn't make sense. Yes, and the incarnation and crucifixion played an eventual role, too, balancing out the "unfairness" and cruelty I saw happen in God's "good" world. Lately it has been re-creation that has captured me (renewal, restoration, etc)

I will add that I also uncovered the powerful force of emotion to color ones grasp or interpretation of "facts." When you are bitter, all hell breaks loose, and you don't trust anyone. Let alone Anyone.

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104795#Comment_104795

I think it would be also worthwhile to look at passages that talk about our jealous God and examine why He might be so.

I'll add that too my study. (the notes on this are getting a little out of hand - is this a good place to complain about notes in L4? [:P] )

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104792#Comment_104792

HOW do you quote multiple people in the same post?

Here's one way... Have a 2nd copy of the window open in another tab... start answering / citing multiple folks there, & cut-and-paste the quoted text into your "real" answer here...

Blessings!

duh!! thanks! [:D]

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104564#Comment_104564

The question might be asked - how is God's love shown when he floods the whole world and kills everyone except Noah and crew?

... I think the only answer is that:

God loves justice and righteousness, and therefore justly punishes what/who is wrong.

God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. In relation to Christ and those punished in the flood, see 1 Peter 3:18-20 (though that is admittedly tricky to interpret). The important points are: the message of repentance was proclaimed, God was patient, but righteousness must prevail.

Keying off Mark's excellent comments, here's my $.02 answer... In other words, a just God--like a parent--will eventually have to deal with persistent rebellion, no matter how much he loves us... Apparently God can see the point beyond which a culture or individual is beyond redemption, which as Charlie pointed out happened over 600+ years after warnings in Canaan, & even longer before the flood. It then becomes a mercy to OTHERS to prevent that culture or individual from dragging them down, too.

Since it's fair that each die for his own sins... Since the penalty for all willful sin is death (per Nu 15:22 & Lev 4 ff only unintentional sin has a remedy; per Nu 15:30 intentional sin has no remedy, with "cut off" as a euphemism for death penalty--soon executed in Nu 15:32-36 on a willful sabbath breaker)... And since we've all sinned willfully, we're all under a death sentence. God shows Himself loving in that Jesus came to rescue all who will accept God's proposition of grace.

Apologies for contributing to an off-topic thread, but I couldn't resist... No offense intended to anyone... apologies in advance if inadvertently offered.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104659#Comment_104659

I can say, God sees the big picture I don't. I can quote "God brings rain on the just and unjust".

I'm sure Joseph & Daniel had a hard time understanding their particular circumstances. imo: It is OK to ask God "WHY?" just so long as we trust Him and accept His authority as Creator to do with His Creation as He sees best. Remember, God can not commit evil, make mistakes or be unjust. God is intimately aware of the needs of each and every one of us. David, Job, Elijah and believers through the ages have fallen on their faces before God asking, "WHY?!" You are in good company.

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104550#Comment_104550

If we start from the idea that God owes men nothing, that every breath is a merciful gift...then when things go wrong, we are thankful...we see that He is God and we are not

Thank you, sir, for this answer. it lines up beautifully with the Word of God.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104798#Comment_104798

The question I am trying to ask, and what the quote you attached does not reference this (unless I am missing your point), is why God kills.

I see I didn't really address that in my anecdotal answer. I don't know that we can always know the answer. And perhaps still, I might ask: is the question "why God kills" or "what do I do with my trust in Him when some of the things he does, or allows, blow my mind"? We can come up with some reasons why he "kills". But there are times when our own sense of security and trust are shaken because of what we see happen around us. It is both simple: evil and justice/righteousness, and complex (was this targeted by God, was it the devil, was it human--accident or purposeful, was it coincidental, a "freak accident", force of nature, or a combination of any of those?). We don't always have (ever?) 20/20 vision. And when we don't: "WHY???!!!!"

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104814#Comment_104814

and you have to wonder, does physical death= spiritual death? are all those he kills eternally damned? Maybe, maybe not. I am sure some are. But it is a point that enters the mix.

Suffering is not the worst thing in the world. Death is not. Eternal separation is.

Sharon

The question - can a loving God that has my best interest at heart really be angry enough to pour his anger out on a person or group of people.

Perhaps you might ask a different question in order to get an answer for the one you are asking. Start at the beginning and study God, HImself. And then study who man is. These two truths are where we all alike tend to go wrong in our thinking. Only when we see God for Who He is (and at best that is only a glimpse) can we see why He does certain things. And only when we catch a glimpse of God can we see ourselves for who we really are. He is incomprehensible, yet trying to comprehend Him (through what He says about Himself) puts us closer to seeing the truth.

The fact of the matter is that we cannot put God and ourselves on the same scale. There is no scale in the universe large enough. God's exalted being is larger than His universe and definitely larger than man. If we put God on a scale, intending to mark a dot on that same scale for man, we could not go low enough - man if off the scale from God. LIkewise, if we put man on a scale and tried to mark a dot where God would be in relation to man on that scale, we could not go high enough - He is off the scale from man!

If one of the Asian beetle bugs that witnessed me vacuuming up one of his fellow beetle bugs today in order to destroy it were to ask why I was so cruel. It wouldn't be the right question. I wasn't cruel, even though I destroyed the beetle bug and would have destroyed the onlooker if I had seen it.

The questions should be, "What am I, a beetle bug?" and "Who is this vacuuming lady?" The answer is that the bug is nothing and I am so far above the bug in honor and worth that the bug could never understand it. The bug has no worth. I, as a human have great worth. I can do as I want with the bugs and the bugs have no right to question me. The fact that I have different interests than those of the beetle bug is of no consequence to the bug once it realizes who I am and what it is.

To transfer my silly analogy to your dilemma, man is nothing and God is everything. He is far greater in worth over me than I could ever be over that bug. In fact, in order to try and focus an imaginative wide angel - a lens wide enough to see where the bug would fit (on the scale that I could not fit God and man at the same time), I would have to back up so far that I would find that the bug and I would become almost the same dot (long before I ever came anywhere close to seeing us in relation to God) because our worth would be so similar IN COMPARISON to God's worth.

There is no problem in God doing whatever He wants. We are but dirt. The problem has always been that man has elevated himself and that man has abased God by lowering Him in their eyes. Alas, it will be so until the end time. But, in the final days God will abase and humble mankind, except those who are saved from His wrath. In the final days God will exalt Himself and bring HImself all the glory He deserves, and wonder of wonders He will exalt the saved with His Son.

One way to begin a study on God is simply to mark everytime your Bible tells you something about Him (I underline these in purple). And then do the same with what God says about man. It's a humbling subject - but oh, so much better to be humbled now than in the Day of HIs Wrath.

Of course, Logos can help you search your Bible on these two subjects. AW Pink has some wonderful books on the sovereignty of God, the attributes of God, the godhood of God, etc. along with the depravity of man.

One other aspect of this glorious majesty of our God is seen in Philippians 2. To paraphrase - Jesus became an 'asian beetle bug' and even died as one, even a horrible humiliating death, so that I might live and become like Him...amazing Grace!

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104847#Comment_104847

an is nothing and God is everything

I really didn't want to get involved in this one, but I would like to interject something and then I will wander off.

I am a creation of God, and to put it as I saw on a poster one time "God doesn't create junk". My value derives from the the price that God put on my redemption (when I had no innate value because of my fallen state). (Romans 5:6-10)

God is Sovereign and he may do what he wishes, but please do not denigrate a creation (Humanity) that God was willing to pay so dearly to return to it's original state.

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104798#Comment_104798

The question I am trying to ask, and what the quote you attached does not reference this (unless I am missing your point), is why God kills. God sent the flood. He did not say sin and evil have their natural consequences, He did not say it's a "natural disaster". He said, enough, time for them to die

May I humbly try to explain what I believe the Bible teaches?

God existed in His glorious glory before He created. He created His creation so that His glorious glory would be seen. (Glory is doxa - to seem - to give the same weight as, in other words to show off God for Who He is.) Man was given a special opportunity to bring God His glory; he was made in the image of God and told to reproduce himself and populate the world - in other words fill the entire earth with His glory. But he rebelled, God's Spirit left man and marred the image of God. All flesh was now corrupting. So, to put it simply God decided to throw away His first self-portrait because it was ruined; it did not resemble Him anymore. He then started over with Noah's family and actually gave Noah the same instructions when he departed from the ark. "Multiply and go and cover the face of the earth." The purpose - the same as originally - to fill the earth with God's glory. (of course, God's plan is much more complicated than this, but I believe His Glory is the answer to your question above.)

God brought the flood - and I even say He has the right to do that - I'm not complaining (as if He needs my approval). But how does Love (God is love) fit into flood. I think is is about finishing this sentence - For God so loved the world that he flooded it killing all but 7 because -

May I try once more?

"For God so loved the world that He flooded it, killing all but 7 because" - God is Holy. He is set apart unto Himself; only His attributes, character and nature are acceptable. No one can be with God unless they are like Him. The only way man and God can live together in unity is if one of them changes. Either God has to change and become like man (unholy) which can never happen - God is immutable. Or man has to change and become like God - man can't; he has no ability to be holy, or pure or righteous or like God in any of God's ways in and of himself. But God had (has) plans to dwell with mankind, eventually and finally in the New Jerusalem, but mankind needed to be holy. Mankind was not holy - all flesh was corrupting because of sin.

The only answer was for God to change man to be like God. (I am not saying at all - "Be God"!!!) This is the promise God made to Adam (Genesis 3:15). God promised to send One, The Seed, Who would bring life - union with God. God's promise was still in effect when He flooded the earth, but so was His holiness, and so was His plan to bring Himself glory. The reason He saved some was because God graciously favored Noah to be the carrier of the line of The Seed. Everyone else was destroyed because they robbed God of His glory. Noah, who was robbing God of His glory (as a child of Adam) was saved because God's plan could not be thwarted by mankind. God would see to it that His glory would be seen in His creation - Christ in you, (The Promised One, The Seed) the Hope of Glory! God loved mankind and spared mankind in order to produce the progeny that would someday be called the Sons of the Living God!

I know you must know all this, but sometimes, seeing it put simply can light up parts where shadows dwell. I offer these posts as nothing more than a simpleton's effort to help you, a sister who sees that you are earnestly waging war against all untruth. I pray that you keep seeking Him diligently. He is a rewarder of those who seek Him - and the reward is Himself - keep drinking of the Living Water, He will answer you. He doesn't keep secrets from those with whom He is in Covenant. May the Lord hear your heart's cry...

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104856#Comment_104856

an is nothing and God is everything

I really didn't want to get involved in this one, but I would like to interject something and then I will wander off.

I am a creation of God, and to put it as I saw on a poster one time "God doesn't create junk". My value derives from the the price that God put on my redemption (when I had no innate value because of my fallen state). (Romans 5:6-10)

God is Sovereign and he may do what he wishes, but please do not denigrate a creation (Humanity) that God was willing to pay so dearly to return to it's original state.

Yes, Terry, we most certainly are God's creation, in fact He takes some of mankind and makes them into His poema, a work of art, or craftsmanship like a poem. (Ephesians) But the truth is that we, when born in the flesh, are but dirt. (And by the way, our flesh is not yet redeemed - it is paid in full, but not delivered till later--our flesh is just as corrupt now as ever.)

God Himself is the One Who says we are nothing. (Isaiah) Over and over again, in fact. And it isn't just in Isaiah, we are to humble ourselves, it is those who are humble (who recognize what they are) who will enter the Kingdom, etc.

I quoted God because that is His estimate of us, apart from the value He places on those who are His Own. We are worth nothing. God chooses to value us because He decides to, not because we are worth it. I am not denigrating humanity. I am placing the proper priorities on both God and on man. And the price Christ paid actually positions us in a better state than Adam ever had; he never had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit, nor the Covenant we are in when saved.

I really don't want to debate anything, I was trying to help a man who seemed earnestly seeking. And I gave him the answer from the Word of God - as God sees it. What God created was good, but what God destroyed was corrupt (Genesis) and remains corrupt apart from regeneration (Romans). I am sorry you took offense. There shouldn't be any. My whole point, which I believe was clear, was that God is higher and us - and we are lower than God - by an unimaginable amount. And I believe this is the key to MIchael's dilemma.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104894#Comment_104894

. I am sorry you took offense

Sharon, if I took offense at everything that i challenged, I wouldn't have any time left for Bible Study [:D] (Humor for no offense taken)

I really don't think we are disagreeing, I believe that you are speaking of Humanity in their fallen state (Which is what is being addressed by Isaiah). I have no quibble with our actions being worthless as is pointed out in Romans. I just think that we need to pair that with where we started and where God would have us end up. Not to mention the price that he was willing to pay in order to get us there.

DHG

I am not the crazy man on TV that says God is punishing Haiti for sins with an earthquake, not inferring that, in fact, I guess I am asking how do you intellectually debunk that crap .

If you're seriously looking for an answer, reconsider your presupposition. If you're looking to support how you already think/feel about it, no doubt you'll find what you're looking for.

Search and read the puritans on the fall, sin, wrath, suffering, etc. And while you're at it, please bid on all those puritan works that haven't made it out of pre-pub!

Sharon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104907#Comment_104907

Terry, where we started was in the image of God, but still sooooooooo far below Him that we could never be on the same scale - He is WAYYYYY off the charts! We are nothing in comparison to Him! To venerate the Most High God is not to degenerate the dust of His creation. To venerate the Creator is not to degenerate His creation!

You quoted a poster that said, "God doesn't make junk". That poster has two connotations. One is 'man is good'. The other is 'man's Creator is Good'. I applaud that man's Creator is Good! But I don't think that poster does much except exalt man. Perhaps a new poster is in order - how about "God redeems junk!" That places God in His position and man in his.

It is not just our actions that are worthless - it is US! Mankind is evil and depraved, unable to do anything about his wickedness. We are sinning by our very existence. We are not holy. (Until we are born by the Spirit, that is)

Maybe we are not really disagreeing, yet I wish you had chosen to venerate the Son alongside of me rather than to defend humus! That falls into place with what I was saying to Michael. Man has elevated himself and lowered God until both are distorted. Don't let the rocks cry out while you are defending man.

(Just so you know, I challenge your challenge.) [:)]

How about let's agree on something we know that we can agree on - that God is the Living God, the True God, The Everlasting King and there is NONE LIKE HIM!!!!! Yes??? Amen and Amen!!!

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104921#Comment_104921

How about let's agree on something we know that we can agree on - that God is the Living God, the True God, The Everlasting King and there is NONE LIKE HIM!!!!! Yes??? Amen and Amen!!!

[Y]

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104925#Comment_104925

Wow, watched american idol, got back on here, now I am way behind. Going to take me awhile to process everything written. It's good to see how others are dealing with, or maybe avoiding this question.

Whoever asked if I was really interested - yes, I was never trying to start anything - I am not stepping in to any argument, just wanted some direction for study, and I got a lot of ideas.

I know we now very much in violation of the guidelines, I was pushing them when I asked the question, and, well .... Anyway, I would ask at this point if you have anything else to add, please add it in the form of - here is a resource that you might look into, at least that gets us back on track.

Thank you everyone that has responded.

Dr. Charles A. Wootten

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104798#Comment_104798

I'm not sure why this question keeps popping up among biblically literate people, but it does.

The way you word your quote above .... I take it as a little condescending (but I am kind of thin skinned for some reason). I would say "thank God people are asking questions, deepening their faith."

Apologies .... My wife always said that there are times when I brilliantly communicate and there are times when I just say things. This was one of the latter. There are several really good responses to this thread here in spite of me [{]

I wandered back to Genesis 6 to see (again) what there was to see. It seems that there were several prohibitions violated during the 120 years that He allowed mankind to come back to their senses, and, subsequently, to Him. One of His first laws was that kind reproduces its kind. Well, not only were human beings being sexually immoral but so were supernatural beings. This also violated the Law of the Sabbath Rest, although that term isn't used until much later around the time of the giving of the Law to Moses. Eating of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was punishable by death (Ge. 2:17) so perhaps there is a link between that Law and the tremendous amount of wickedness on the planet at that time. Since there were none righteous they all deserved the death penalty as the only way out of it was to be declared righteous by none other than Himself.

"By his own evil intention, then, man corrupted the pure nature he had received from the Lord; and by his fall drew all his posterity with him into destruction." MacArthur, J. (2001). The battle for the beginning : The Bible on creation and the fall of Adam (190). Nashville, TN: W Pub. Group. See also the remainder of the comment at libronixdls:jump|pos=LLS-AOL:0<P...190>.721.0|res=LLS:43.10.13. And this among the other superb references given in this thread.

Then we could get into the whole blood thing, expiation, etc., and really get technical. But, my thinking is that until God's demands are satisfied then He has to handle the situation according to what He has declared.

So, God did kill all those folks. Why? What was His other choice in meeting His Laws? Why did Noah and family get the favor to be declared righteous? Only God knows.

However, I do not see a relationship between that and innocent people dying every day for disease or fools. My first daughter died at 6 months as that was the way God chose to heal her of a serious debilitating disease. The same as your friend dying by the fool who fired the stray bullet. (Fool is defined by "the fool says in his heart there is no God.") Both instances are the result of sin that has corrupted God's universe and all we can do is weep and continue to trust that God knows His grand design.

If there is an answer to your original question I am not smart enough to answer it.

God bless

{charley}

[edit] I neglected to say that questioning one's faith is an absolute must. It is truly a biblical thing to do.

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105014#Comment_105014

Apologies .... My wife always said that there are times when I brilliantly communicate and there are times when I just say things. This was one of the latter. There are several really good responses to this thread here in spite of me

This post was one of the former - thanks.

Mike

DHG

Michael,

Jesus answered a similar question (Luke 13:1-5); his response is startling and worth considering.

Jack Caviness

The question - can a loving God that has my best interest at heart really be angry enough to pour his anger out on a person or group of people.

I wanted to stay out of this off-topic thread, but I am weak—I can't resist.

The question misses the point that God is holy. You might try The Holiness of God by R C Sproul (a Logos resource). As others have pointed out, God gives sinful man ample time to repent. When they fail to repent, they merely reap the harvest of their own decisions.

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105167#Comment_105167

I need to find a place to "argue" or "chew on" what some of you said and mean in a few of your posts, and here is not the place to do this. A little back and forth would be good for me to continue work this out - again here is not the place.

I've used much of what you have said, and resources you have said to search, and I feel better about this - not totally settled, but I'm not sure it's a totally settled kind of thing. I am not posting my conclusions, I feel that invites debate, and we've taken this thread too far off-topic already.

Thank you all for your input. Thank you Logos for your patience.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105321#Comment_105321

Michael,

If you want to chew on this Q I'd love to continue...there is nothing better than mulling over/hashing out God's attributes and his word...

You can email me if you like at

rpavich (at) gmail (dot) com

Alan Macgregor

The question - can a loving God that has my best interest at heart really be angry enough to pour his anger out on a person or group of people. … The question might be asked - how is God's love shown when he floods the whole world and kills everyone except Noah and crew?

Michael

Just came across your post and thought that I would respond. (Just to let you know where I'm coming from. This is not for me just an interesting question; it's one I am faced with from angry/hurting people. As a parish minister, i.e. someone who is responsible for the pastoral care of a whole community, not just my church members, this is something that I am asked quite regularly.)

However, in order to answer that I need to have prayed/thought/read through. (And it is an ongoing issue, as I seek to come to a better knowledge of God. Indeed, it is only there – in the heart of God – that we can find any meaningful answer.)

I think you are asking two questions. One is about God's anger. Try a library search. I searched (wrath OR anger) AND God and came up with 481,528 results in 30,283 articles. (Wow!!) The other is about why bad things happen to good people? Classically: how can a loving God permit suffering? This is the question of Theodicy. Try a library search of theodicy and you will be pointed to a wide range of resources. I came up with 596 results in 409 articles. (A fair number to be going on with.)

Some scriptural references as a starting point:

Genesis 3:1-24 esp. Genesis 3:17. Cf. Romans 8:20-21. This is a fallen world where pain and suffering are the order of the day, as a result of the Fall. This is not the world God created and called good. This is a world cursed by God – and yet a world which God has never given up on. Cf. John 3:16. It is important to grasp, because liberal theologians are obliged to try to jump through all kinds of hoops in order to avoid this scriptural/spiritual reality. Psalm 73:1-28 is an absolutely honest, personal struggle, where the Psalmist reveals his doubts and and deals with them, ultimately finishing in a statement of unshakeable confidence in a loving God who permits evil and suffering, yet who will take us into glory, because of His love for us revealed in Jesus Christ His Son, who suffered and died for all those who will simply trust in Him. Cf. Acts 16:31.

A couple of books to consult (not theological tomes but short, readable, insightful books which have helped others who are going through painful experiences):

Watson, Thomas All Things for Good, Edinburgh: Banner of Truth,1986 (ISBN 0 85151 478 2) This is worth it's weight in gold. A solid Puritan work first published in 1663.
Edwards, Brian H. Not by Chance: Making Sense Out of Suffering, Durham: Evangelical Press, 1982 (ISBN 0 85234 170 9) This is a solid book of only 123 pages which many have found useful.

The pastoral reality: I sat today with a woman dying of terminal cancer in a hospital room and she isn't looking for answers, she just wanted me to pray with her. I then went to visit a man in his home, who also has terminal cancer. His questions are more oblique but his wife is close to tears and the strain is telling on her. Again, they wanted prayer, not answers at this juncture. But the point is that I can only pray meaningfully and with integrity with them because I am convinced that God is right there alongside them in their suffering, and wants to draw them closer to Himself. That may mean physical healing; it may not.

For me Romans 8:18 has become a precious text to meditate upon. There are others, I know, but this one to cling to when our world may be crashing around us.

Remember, God is good all the time!

Every blessing

Alan

DHG

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105409#Comment_105409

True shepherd's wisdom. Thank you Alan.

Mickey Marks

Hi I am new to the site. Some very good points and honest answers and thought provoking questions. My persective on the question is that all of the evils or bad things that happen in our world today are a direct result of the fall. Man is a fallen being living in a fallen world and everything is decaying and passing away.

Jesus came to live and die for whosoever will believe. The redemption of mankind and this world were paid for at Calvary.

Blessings,

Mickey

(‾◡◝)

The question - can a loving God ... really be angry enough to pour his anger out on a person or group of people.

Perhaps the original question would be more intriguing if it were phrased like this:

Can a just and eternally consistent God who has declared "In the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die" and "The wages of sin is death" and "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" and "There is none righteous, not even one"

... really save eight people?

As someone once said, The amazing thing is not, "Esau have I hated" ... the amazing thing is "Jacob have I loved."

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105706#Comment_105706

The question - can a loving God ... really be angry enough to pour his anger out on a person or group of people.

Perhaps the original question would be more intriguing if it were phrased like this:

Can a just and eternally consistent God who has declared "In the day that you eat thereof, you shall surely die" and "The wages of sin is death" and "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" and "There is none righteous, not even one"

... really save eight people?

As someone once said, The amazing thing is not, "Esau have I hated" ... the amazing thing is "Jacob have I loved."

And therein lies the crux of the whole ball o' wax....the starting assumption.... you nailed it.