What is God's love

Love is obviously a misused word - of course we often talk about God's love being "agape" love - (which of course explains everything right Big Smile ) How might I use Logos tools to better illustrate from the Bible to someone who may not even believe in God what it is I am saying when I say that God *loves* them? Rabbit trails allowed - as long as the answers relate to using Logos as a tool to study the Bible.

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Friedrich

So, what do we get for writing your sermon (book? thesis?) for you. [:P]

this can go hand in hand with the other current thread on his anger . . .

I have been especially drawn toward love expressed in grace--such as when Peter's denial is known and foretold, and Jesus looks beyond that, giving Peter a purpose and task (and value and worth) "when you have turned back." Surely words of affirmation and calling amid a very despairing time in Peter's life.

Been reading a book called "Reading the Bible with the Damned" by Bob Ekblad (great for Logos!!). He recounts experience after experience of reading everything from the Torah to Prophets to the Gospels and Paul--and how the "marginalized" hear and see Jesus reaching out to poeple like them. It may just transform how many of us read and speak about Good News! (it has to be both "news" AND "good" for that to work on hearts.)

Terry Poperszky

we often talk about God's love being "agape" love

Well, here is where I started lemma:ἀγάπη@N????, but I believe this is not the right place. Your question contains a presupposition: "God's love is Agape". Is it? How do you know? Prove it.

To prove it, I believe that we would have to do a search on all forms of both greek words for love (I don't believe we find Eros in the NT). Then we would have to see who they are attributed to. Then if we find God exhibiting love other than agape, or Man evidencing agape apart from God we have to reconcile these.

Or just look in up in TDNT for both Koine and Classical usage.

Kevin Becker

You might consider using a syntax search like this one to see how God relates to love. (the last word in the title should be "love", not "loved") This search should gives some contexts to consider for understanding this issue.

Jeremy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104945#Comment_104945

Pick up the short but highly useful book by D.A. Carson, "The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God." It is in Logos format. Carson also wrote a series of journal articles in Biblioteca Sacra on the same subject which are in the Logos journals package.

Chris Thompson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104945#Comment_104945

I would suggest that our finite minds are incapable of even knowing the logical questions about an infinite God.

This thread seems to be based on the premise that love is something that God does...I suggest that the love we see exhibited by Him is not so much what He does...but what He is...Twice in 1 John it says "God is love"...God said "I Am"...Jesus said "before Abraham was...I Am".

I will attempt to disguise my stump preaching as a request that Logos offer a great little book by J.B. Phillips, titled "Your God is too small".[:)]

Jeremy White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104935#Comment_104935

So, what do we get for writing your sermon (book? thesis?) for you.

Don't worry Dan - I'll give you a mention in the credits [;)]

this can go hand in hand with the other current thread on his anger

Yes, in a way that was the inspiration for this post. and I looked at that book you suggested - looks very interesting.

At this point though I'm looking primarily for things that engage directly with Biblical text versus just more reading. I don't need Bob Ekblad's book in Logos (although it looks like it would be something I would consider getting if it was available) format in order to benefit from it but doing something like what Kevin B suggests (Syntax diagram) is Logos' bread and butter and really want to understand that process better and apply it in meaningful ways to my personal explorations as well as what I prepare to share with others.

BTW, I'm volunteering to take as many of these suggestions and expanding them into useful tutorials - so don't think I'm trying to freeload here [:D]

Jeremy White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104969#Comment_104969

I will attempt to disguise my stump preaching as a request that Logos offer a great little book by J.B. Phillips, titled "Your God is too small".

[Y] Nice save.

Thanks for your contribution - and while I think I understand what you are saying I do need to play Devil's advocate a little - what searches or cross references or other Logos tools would you use to back up what you are saying - for instance - you keep putting underlining emphasis under certain words - why would you do that? Is it just due to limitations or certain idiosyncrasies in the English language that the verse "God is love" is rendered in that way? And if so, what does "God being love" - versus "God being loving" mean? And does it really make any difference?

Chris Thompson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105004#Comment_105004

I will attempt to disguise my stump preaching as a request that Logos offer a great little book by J.B. Phillips, titled "Your God is too small".

Nice save.

I do need to play Devil's advocate a little - what searches or cross references or other Logos tools would you use to back up what you are saying

I think you have put your finger on the issue...In my opinion...playing devil's advocate is in direct conflict with spreading the Word.

As to what i use to back up what i say...i invite you to re-read my post...i cited scripture to back up my theory, that God is love, and until we are willing to let God inspire our questions, no software will lead us to the truth. ...Garbage in...Garbage out.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105017#Comment_105017

..In my opinion...playing devil's advocate is in direct conflict with spreading the Word.

In my opinion (a) playing devil's advocate is a necessary step in developing good apologetics and (b) bring the conversation back to how to use Logos to generate support for a statement is a fundamental element of the forums' purpose - helping people use Logos to it's full potential..

Jeremy White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105017#Comment_105017

I'm sorry Abi, without knowing anything about you I can only assume that the phrase "Devil's advocate" perhaps means something different to you than my intended meaning. To me all it means is that I am intentionally taking a contrary position, not to be obstructive but to encourage further analysis. Jesus used a similar technique when He asked the disciples "who do you say I am?" I don't doubt the Bereans sat around studying the scriptures and "as iron sharpens iron" challenged each other to back up what they were saying with more that just pronouncements or opinions.

I do see that you've used Scripture to undergird your statements but to be frank what you have done is *interpreted* those scriptures into a certain teaching (or theory as you call it). Now while, most people on this forum would believe in the inspiration of scripture (at least to some degree - otherwise why bother studying the Bible except as some sort of niche academic exercise), I for one don't believe that *my* interpretation of scripture (or anyone else for that matter) is infallible and I am thankful for a tool such as Logos that has made a lot easier for me to engage with God's Word at much deeper level than was previously possible for me.

I agree that Logos or any other software will not lead us to the truth - it is merely a tool for us to discover more about the truth and the point of these posts is to help myself and others learn more about what is possible with this tool (as well as what's not possible I guess). For instance, the Bible was written from various cultural contexts and used certain phrases and sayings that would seem foreign to most modern people (threading a camel through the eye of needle for instance) - the whole "devil's advocate" thing is example of how a cultural idiom can perhaps be interpreted in ways unintended by the original communicator. So how can Logos help me learn more about the cultural context of that time and how it relates to Scripture.

Back to the God is love statements - I actually agree with you and I think we often focus too much on what God does versus who He is. For me personally, that is why I call Him Lord, not because of what He has done for me (although I am very grateful for what God has done) but simply because of who He is. ..... and so as I result I want to learn as much as possible about what He has said in His Word, how it applies to me and how I can share it with others. So that while I can never be wholly certain in my own flesh that my understanding of Scripture is unobstructed; I can be confident that I can be blessed in the same way as the man in Psalm 1 and can help people study the Scriptures like Jesus suggest in John 5:39 in order that they may discover the testimony regarding Him.

So I ask again - if someone was to ask you why we can interpret "God is love" in a such an all encompassing way how might one do that. It could be for instance that it is simply one of those things that people need accept in faith (so we come to an obvious limitation of software and human logic) or maybe there are other ways to show that this (and more) was the God's intention to communicate to us.

Chris Thompson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105033#Comment_105033

So I ask again - if someone was to ask you why we can interpret "God is love" in a such an all encompassing way how might one do that

If someone just read that, without scrolling up to check,they might assume it was your original question. Fact is the title of the post is..."What is Gods love". The question you asked is "How might I use Logos tools to better illustrate from the Bible to someone who may not even believe in God what it is I am saying when I say that God *loves* them? "

The fact that your question has now evolved into one about "God is love" demonstrates the very point i was attempting to make. I am aware that i have offended someone here by speaking my mind...so i will give you your thread back...God Bless you in your studies.

Gary O'Neal

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104945#Comment_104945

You might consider using a syntax search like this one to see how God relates to love. (the last word in the title should be "love", not "loved") This search should gives some contexts to consider for understanding this issue.

Kevin

This search won't find instances like John 15 that use the subject 'Father.' How about using the LN domain?

Jeremy White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105059#Comment_105059

If someone just read that, without scrolling up to check,they might assume it was your original question. Fact is the title of the post is..."What is Gods love". The question you asked is "How might I use Logos tools to better illustrate from the Bible to someone who may not even believe in God what it is I am saying when I say that God *loves* them? "

If someone just jumps into a discussion without first getting an understanding about what's going on then of course they're going to potentially misunderstand what is happening.

But Abi I don't believe anyone is at all offended by anything you've said - least of them me - if anything, I'm inviting you to say more. I think the passages that you have brought up are very pertinent particularly in the sense that so often we hear statements like "if God was a loving God then "x" wouldn't happen or He would do something about it". (In fact there is an entire thread going on at the moment that speaks to some degree about that) Again the focus being what God does / or doesn't do as opposed to *who* or what He is.We can use Logos to help us explore further these passages to see how they fit into the whole counsel of God's Word

For instance, you mentioned Jesus talking about "before Abraham I am" - using Logos as an investigative tool - is it possible to link John 8:58 with Exodus 3:14?(beyond just looking at the footnotes) Admittedly it's a little bit of a diversion from the original question I posed but it's just another opportunity to show how we can use this tool to assist us in our study.

I do thank you for your blessing and while it's not really "my" thread you're welcome back anytime.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105080#Comment_105080

First--mea culpa, I really didn't address "how would I use Logos" in my initial reply.

Now, on to how I would, or have, used Logos.

1. Bible Search. I absolutely believe in "concordance" work. It is important to look up words like agape and phileo. (and note that there is not the neat distinction between the two that most of us were brought up believing).

real live example: when doing a series on John 3:16 (inspired by Max Lucado's book), I picked apart the verse, and did Bible searches on key words: love, world, believe, eternal life, etc.
- I took note how important some of these words were to John (by number of times used in the gospel and epistles
- I took note of the ways in which love was explained (he loved us first, he loved the world--especially when one understands how "world" is used in John to refer to rebellious/hostile humanity. This gave some color and definition to love.
- I first try to confine my study to how a word is used by a particular author (eg, John). This helps me focus on his use and intent. I begin to look for relationships (between words and concepts, like Love and world) and argument (flow of thought).
- I try to immerse myself into the story itself, imagining I were Jesus, or the world, or Peter, etc. This helps me "feel" a bit more subjectively and think through the implications of the text. How would it be for Jesus to come into the world that he loved and be rejected? How does it feel for Peter to have all that failure and yet still be called on to lead? etc. Of course I can't imagine it perfectly, but as I read through these passages and ponder them (and pray), thoughts and feelings do emerge.
- Context is very important. So, instead of just looking at verses, pay attention to why that verse is there. This may lead to other words that give color, in this case, to "love." (I have already alluded to that above, as in the "nearness" of "world" to God's love in 3:16, and what "world" refers to in John's thinking (rebellious humanity, in essence).
- This kind of work, not extremely technical, gets me into the text. All the while I am thinking of my own life experience, the world I know, to think of examples of how this relates in "real life."

There is more, but I am needing to move on. Briefly, other thoughts:

Louw/Nida, is useful to break out of thinking only about one word or two (like agape and phileo). Look up the semantic domain of "attitudes and emotions" and see what other words fall under that category that might give us more texts to search for examples of God's love, even if "love" is not a word that is present.
concordance work helps us to quickly find passages related to that topic, but there is so much more that could be said about that beyond just performing a word search.
I like "big picture" thinking. Therefore, Logos works like "Ancient Future Worship" by Robert Webber, or reading about "promise theology" by Walt Kaiser give me a (to use a word en vogue) narrative framework into which to cast the wider drama of God's love, and how that is carried out. Webber shows the creation/incarnation/re-creation intent of God, that he is not so willing to throw away this world he loved/loves so much and created "very good", but actually enters into it, becomes human (not just play acting human) and recasts/recreates (in the New earth and heaven) it all into a wonderful, eternal life of love and beauty and peace. Kaiser shows the consistent unveiling of God's promise, and gives a more solid, historical example of God's love (exemplified supremely in Jesus), that is not "fly by night" or something "new" but actually there from the foundation, (actually before the foundation!) when sin was introduced.
Reading journal and dictionary articles (Anchor Yale, Dictionary of biblical Imagery, etc) all open up other blind spots I may have on a topic.

some thoughts.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/105063#Comment_105063

This search won't find instances like John 15 that use the subject 'Father.' How about using the LN domain?

Good idea Gary. I'd also add LN 93.139 (Jesus) to it as well.

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/104969#Comment_104969

a request that Logos offer a great little book by J.B. Phillips, titled "Your God is too small".

Abi,

That book is an absolute gem. I was looking through it just earlier this evening. Yes, it would be a very good addition to the Logos catalogue! [Y]