The future of Logos and Faithlife: Help us make the right decisions!

Here are some of my thoughts:

1) As a lay person, I am not in a direct position to have much influence whether my local church subscribes to your proposed "church business" software offerings.  I don't see myself as a target customer (although if my church adopted this, as a Logos user, I'm sure I would be happy to jump on board with the integrated services).

2) Lets be honest and acknowledge that Logos Bible Study software is complex.  It takes a lot of effort to learn how to use the tools, especially with the limited up-to-date documentation on how the software works.  You have to devote hours of study on how to use the software and many use third party services to get training.  It is evident in browsing the forums that many (myself included) often struggle figuring out how to use the basics of the software.  Lets extrapolate this to the proposed church services offerings.  Will churches have the stomach to learn how to use the Logos based systems (especially if the included documentation/training/support is as weak as it is with the Bible Study software)?  Large churches with dedicated IT staff may be able to pull it off, but my guess is that the majority of smaller churches won't want to deal with the technology.

3) My biggest concern as a Logos customer is that I see this initiative as a resource drain away from improvements that I would like to see with the Bible study software.  There are a ton of features "in development" that I'm afraid will never be implemented if Logos resources become stretched into other areas.  For example, the "new notes" sounded like a great concept, but there is some very basic functionality that I would expect in a polished product that we are still waiting for.

Thanks for asking for input and I'll pray for wisdom for you and your staff in the decisions ahead.

As always Bob I appreciate your transparency and candor. Having been a Logos customer going back to the old Libronix days, I have benefitted from the evolution of the software tools and features. Over the years I have tried other products, but remain convinced that Logos is the Premier bible study software on the market.

Last year I also became a Proclaim customer. I pastor a small church and we had been using PowerPoint for many years. I liked many of the features in proclaim, especially the integration with Logos. However the church did not have an extra $200 in the budget to spend on presentation software. So I bought our first year's subscription. I am hoping to get it in the church budget this year, now that they have had a chance to see it work. If not, I'll likely cover it again.

We recently switched to Faithlife sites from another website provider. We are currently using the free site. The premium plan is twice the cost we were paying before. That is the problem with many of the additional services and tools Faithlife is offering. The quality of the products is good and continuously improving. Many are feature rich, but many of those features are not needed for a small church like ours, with the demographics of our congregation.

I would not presume to tell you, or even suggest, an appropriate price point for any of your products. I would simply say that for a church like ours it is unlikely that we would spend $100 a month for access to Equip. Most in my congregation would not use them. The staff consists of me and a part-time minister of music. Lest we be considered unique, I took a look at the churches who are members of our local denominational association. There are 34 churches in that group. Maybe 6 of them would be of a size and congregational makeup that would be attracted to something like Equip. I would guess that if I were to include the churches in my area who are outside my denominational association, the percentages would be about the same. 

Bottom line is that while your products and services are great, they are only appealing less than 20% of the market. In many areas that is probably far less. For example, I have been in the "bible belt" for last twenty years. Prior to that I was part of the same denomination in Northern California. There our association was about half the size, and covered five Northern California counties. The largest church in our association probably averaged about 70 people on Sundays.

Again, I would not presume to try and tell you how to run the business, You get enough of that on these forums already. But it seems to me that you have to decide if targeting less than 20% of your potential market will bring the desired results. If so, you are probably on the right track, and I would not change direction. But if you think it's a good idea to expand your market reach, then there probably needs to be a strategy that offers the kinds of tools and services the majority of the market needs, at a price that will be budget friendly to the church that is working with very limited budgets. One example that comes to mind in the church management arena is ChurchTrac. They offer a feature rich church management program at a price point most church can easily afford.

I'm an outlier, so much of this isn't in my purview, but on this point...

Should the message focus on: Integration with biblical content / education? The integrated platform (no more five accounts to manage)?

I'm assuming you are referencing Logos/Verbum/Faithlife Ebooks/etc. (if not, let me know and/or ignore my comment). I never really liked the separation, and would like one search to bring up everything that is within FL's stable. I'm just not going to run 2-3 or more searches for titles I'm looking to purchase.

The main thing I'm looking for is...to paraphrase Neo..."Titles...lot's of titles." There are numerous series from a variety of publishers that I would like to see available in Logos. I realize De Gruyter titles were offered at one time and they didn't gain much traction, but there are STUPENDOUS monographs on SPECTACULAR topics published by De Gruyter and they should be available in Logos format. The necessary ingredient to make it all work would be to get the publisher to follow the Bloomsbury path of offering their nose-bleed-priced-resources for 80-90% discounts to a market that will otherwise NEVER purchase their titles. Make their $100-300 titles available for $10-30 each and I will buy tons of them. But up to now, and for probably EVER, I won't buy a single book for $100 or more. I WILL BUY thousands of dollars worth of books, though, if I'm getting great value.

Get Eisenbraun's Siphrut series. Get the many SBL monograph series. Their are tons of great monograph series...GET THEM.

GET VETUS TESTAMENTUM & NOVUM TESTAMENTUM (and tons of other serious academic journals)...which are quoted thousands of times in Logos resources. Yeah, I know Brill doesn't want to...BUT CONVINCE THEM OF THE ERROR OF THEIR WAYS. The utility of these journals is ratcheted up geometrically, even exponentially, when they are hyperlinked to citations. I OWN the Bloomsbury collection...tons of Sheffield and T&T Clark titles...BECAUSE they were made affordable IN LOGOS. I don't own a single copy of VT or NT (even though I would love to and would benefit from them) because they are stupidly expensive and a serious pain to acquire...and they aren't searchable or linked to my library.

I'm probably way off topic, but you are asking about what would get us to "invest" more in FL and on that account I am very old school. I want MORE HYPERLINKED TITLES.

Hi Bob 

Thanks for sharing and asking the questions.

I believe that tools to help with ”church management” are important but I’m not sure that the fully integrated model you seem to be outlining here is something I would recommend to our church. I like the concept but its not starting from “where we are”.

Looking at the pricing page it seems that churches can get access to a lot of functionality for a ”bundled price” but they may already have a lot of the components in place.

For example, the starting price point is $104-125 per month but a church may already have a website, and a sermon repository and simply want to add in church management software. One of the leading companies in the UK offers this for £45-£46 per month.

Implementing this in a previous church it was very easy to link their calendaring tool to our main website and it is these sorts of integration that I expect will be important.

Do you intend to “break things up” into smaller components even at the risk of easier integration?

One essential requirement in the UK (and across Europe) is that any tools are GDPR-compliant, otherwise I expect the takeup to be very limited or non-existent.

Graham

Mark Barnes has already hit some of the issues with small churches (and done an excellent job of communicating our concerns as well). Additionally, we are in a rural community where cell service and broadband are sketchy at best. Our people are not the native users of technology that the upcoming generation is reported to be (even our high school is pitiful in the use of Social media  because it is not the "go to" method of communication that our teens use.

We are "all in" on Faithlife. I use Logos, we are loving Proclaim, We are on Faithlife Giving (as a trial for our first year of Proclaim), we host sermons on our Faithlife site and we are currently entering data into Ministry Tracker as our first attempt to get this church on a ChMS. Honestly, the Faithlife TV and Mobile Ed offerings do not add value to what our people want and (While they offer content that some may want) they add cost and put the Faithlife Church Packages out of reach for a rural congregation under 100 people.

I think Mark Barnes is on to something with his modular ideas.

(Bonus: as a small church we don't need to integrate midi lighting cues that seem to be a considerable demand on the Proclaim customer support people [:D])

I agree wholeheartedly with Graham’s sentiments. I would add that our church uses Proclaim and I use Logos, but we will not be moving our website any time soon even if you said, “here’s all you need for free for life” just because what we pay is so low and so under utilized by the congregation and pure area that. I’m a single staff church member and we have no one to enter info into a church management website so same holds true for that. When you have a small number of people, you can keep track of them informally or using what you already have with an excel spreadsheet. To add something else without a person dedicated to maintaining this just adds one more responsibility to an already over worked congregation trying to maintain everything but the pastoral duties with volunteers.

Thanks however. 

As always, Bob, thanks for allowing the users to give input. Here's my assessment:

We are a church of about 200. If I recall correctly, the majority of churches are 100 or smaller. Even at our church size, we don't need a lot of the products in equip. We use a hodge-podge of software; mostly free stuff, not as integrated as equip but definitely cheaper. I wonder if the whole package is more gear towards the mega-church? I can see all the staff using the professional services of FL. However, I personally think the services for the "whole church" will be a hard sell. People are fickle and like to go with the most popular software (Facebook, Instagram, YouVersion App, Kindle...). Churches are also evangelistic and want there people to be on these platforms to reach unbelievers.

Logos: A couple of the leaders use Logos. The learning curve on Logos as a professional geared service makes it hard to get the whole church on board.

Logos Mobile Apps: This is where most of the "whole church" would use your Bible software. It has a lot of potential, however it is just not there yet in its ease of use and bells/whistles that people would want to give up their YouVersion app (More audio bibles, better reading plans). The app is definitely ahead of most in different areas. Just needs lots of polishing. Some suggestions: Easier 1 Click Word Studying and Copying https://community.logos.com/forums/t/180147.aspx#1040358 https://community.logos.com/forums/t/181522.aspx Reference Scanner Exports: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/156244.aspx Read Aloud Andriod: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/178938.aspx

Courses: More Academic than most church members could stand (from what I've seen).

Proclaim: We have considered using Proclaim, however it wasn't the right timing since we invested in upgrading another software. Though, we will probably move to Proclaim eventually. Logos and Proclaim are both "professional" software. That is an easier sell in a church because only the leaders or tech people have to adopt.

Sites: This is a good idea for smaller churches. Seems like it is still in beta, though, with not a lot of ways to customize.

FL TV: In a service like FLTV content is king. Churches will use the services that have the discipleship content that they want to go through with their church or their people want to watch...etc.

Those are my ramblings. I hope they are helpful!

Bob,  thank you for the opportunity for input here. Since much of the input given so far has come from the perspective of smaller attendance/budget churches (which is the overwhelming majority), I will speak to this from the perspective of a senior pastor of a church with 600+ in attendance and $2 million budget.  Larger established churches will tend to have long histories with a particular church management software that handles their people, financials, and scheduling.  They will be very reluctant to move away from these platforms due to history, investment, and the availability of support and infrastructure from those companies. 

I will say that for what you are offering, if all of these services are excellent, your pricing would be a steal even if it were double the initial pricing.  You will have to sell value.

In my opinion, the two types of churches that you are most likely to have sign up for this service are smaller churches who get a tremendous amount of services in one place for a low price and churches that are growing into "mid-size" who have seen the need for church management software and other services but who haven't yet gotten into the ecosystem of another company.

Finally, as a loyal, ten year Logos Bible Software user, I hope that these new ventures do not ultimately erode the viability of that core business and my personal investment in it.  That is always in the back of everyone's mind. However, business models change. We all understand that.

I think the easiest thing to cut would be the web app.  If someone has the money to purchase Logos, chances are they will have a desktop, laptop, or mobile device with Logos installed, making the web app superfluous.  Honestly, I only used the web app once, and only for a few minutes while I was reinstalling Logos onto a new computer...  I really can't think of a reason why anyone would use the web app on a regular basis if they already have it downloaded.

I really appreciate the transparency with which Bob runs their business, and I understand the need to adjust to changing market conditions.

This is going to come across more negative than I intend it, so try to read this generously...

I've got well into 5 figures spent with FL (the vast majority on Logos resources), and I have the FL Now subscription. I love Logos, use it almost daily, promote it, try to help where I have time, etc. So I'm financially and mentally / emotionally invested.

When I read Bob's post about their plans and where they're trying to make decisions,...
and when I couple that with the new products / markets they've ventured into over the last ~5 years,...
and when I couple *that* with the enhancements they're making to the Logos product itself...

It makes me seriously consider switching to Acc*nce. I'm a pastor, and none of those products / markets are of any interest to me. (I looked into sites and online giving, but they weren't competitive). I don't believe I'm using any of the major features from L8. I love the desktop product, but it's being taken to places that I don't think I'll ever go with features that I'll never use. I should also add that I love the mobile app - I read from it to the tune of hours per week.

I'd like to think I'm FL's target market - seminary grad, pastor, daily/weekly working in original languages, sermon prep each week, regularly reading books and journals, plus a technologist for 30+ years. But maybe I'm really not.

My $.02 ...

Donnie

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Bob,

I enjoy your transparency with everything y'all do at Faithlife. However, most of the newer changes for the church I pastor, which is small (50-70 on Sunday Mornings) are a moot point for us, because our internet service where we live is almost non-existent (satellite internet, which really cannot fall under the realm of "high speed" as it claims). 

So, I am going to keep reading and looking at all of this, and once REAL high speed internet gets here, maybe integrate these into our local church. 

-Jon

Bob, it seems that you want to sell stuff, including websites, to churches. OK. As you know, the most efficient way to do this is to sell to a large number of churches all at once.

One good question to ask is, "Where do I find large groups (hundreds or at least dozens) of churches--especially those with no website or terrible websites--in pre-assembled groups with a central decision-making entity that can sign up and pay for every single one of those churches all at once?"

Oooh! I know the answer! It's painful, but I do: the Catholic Church in the USA and Canada. Market to bishops and their dioceses.

Talk with your Verbum staff. Most Catholic parishes presently have either no website or a terrible website and/or a website that doesn't get updated because it's a pain to do so... and/or even the pastor and current staff don't have the relevant password(s).

Right now, Equip ‘Early Access’ is an amazing deal… and I’m surprised every Logos user hasn’t gotten their church onto Faithlife TV for Churches (https://faithlifetv.com/church), because it’s worth it for the Mobile Ed courses alone… and Faithlife Giving (https://giving.faithlife.com/) is fantastic and will be super-well integrated with the whole platform. I hope you’ll check it out.

If our church subscribes to the FaithLifeTV, how does each user log into the content? Does each person have a separate log-in? I am wondering if there is a way to allow each user to bookmark content, not having to start over mid viewing of a video, etc. Possibly the new users would purchase the Basic Logos and set up a login. BTW, what is included in the Basic package? I don't see any listing for the content.

I am facilitating a college age class starting in August, and would like to use the FaithLife TV and Mobile Ed content occasionally.

This might seem negative, but it is not intended that way.

I question some of the things that you throw development resources at and wonder if there isn't a bit too much bloat at Faithlife. Do we really need a web version of the software? I have never used it and probably never will. Desktop and mobile, yes.

On a similar note, I tried to use the Sermon Editor this week for my sermon prep and found myself frustrated by a lack of basic formatting options. It seems half-baked to me. Why develop a tool if you aren't going to do it right? I wonder if anyone is using the sermon tool. I finally gave up and exported my work to Word. One has to question the value of trying to recreate a Word processor and Presentation tool inside Logos. Microsoft has already done a pretty good job. It would make more sense to integrate with those tools.

Canvas? Do I really need a drawing/diagramming tool in my bible software when there are so many good options on the market?

I like the idea of a church management system, but I would like to see it functioning before I recommended it. Do you support online giving / payment transactions in Canada? This is becoming a crowded space, but Logos has a good base to build on with all it's bible focussed resources.

Hi Bob,

I started using Logos when I was in seminary (1992-1995). I remember buying the diskettes and taking them home to install them. Faithlife has certainly come a long way since those days. For the most part I've been happy with the changes. 

While my undergrad was in Math and Computer Science from the University of Waterloo, I often feel at a loss when using the functionality of Logos. I know it is more powerful than my knowledge base on the product allows.

I more than understand the need for businesses to grow and develop -- the church does and seems to be awful at realizing that at times.

I think the direction you're going in is great. Integrating the events in my congregation's Faithlife community into Proclaim and the Digital Signage saves me a lot of time. Being able to embed the Digital Signage into my own website allows for our page to seem up to date without much effort. Being able to write sermons in Logos (not an original feature) and export them into Proclaim (not an original product) saved huge amounts of time. I'm happy.

I serve a very small (by American standards) congregation in the Greater Toronto Area. Average weekly attendance about 70. My administrative assistant works 12-15 hours per week. Anything that saves time is a god-send.

My congregation is also very aged. We're working with a consultant to determine what our future will be. There's no guarantee that the future won't be "lock the doors and sell". I think there's other possibilities in the rapidly changing church landscape, but it is a congregational decision and not mine to impose.

We've had very little uptake with the additional services you offer. We tried running a couple of online bible studies through the Faithlife community with almost no success. I've tried to get people to download the Proclaim app to push notifications of events to their devices -- one person has (other than me.)

Checking in for us doesn't require an app -- we're so small that we can look around the room and see who is here.

Our music comes almost entirely out of our denominational worship book (I'm not saying that's a good thing just describing the reality), and I often the songs accessible in Proclaim are not ours (I've entered ours and they are saved for reuse).

My sermons are nothing great. I have no following (other than the few Luddites who are my members) who would want to read / listen to my thoughts.

In five years of online giving being available for us, we've had one donation that way.

We're so small that our facility use is literally written on a wall calendar -- and I can't remember a time in 13 years that we've double booked something.

I would love better integration of events across calendars and email however when we used Faithlife to send out newsletters we had very few takers (we had to revert to our previous provider but we're small enough that we don't need to pay a bill in bananas.)

I would be ecstatic with shared reading plans, and digital bulletins, but again my people just don't engage in that way.

Some of the Community features of Equip look interesting to me -- but given our history, I'm not sure how many people will engage that way.

As I review all this, it is sounding horribly negative, and that wasn't my intent when starting my response. I really do think you do an excellent job (and at one point really wanted to apply for a job at Faithlife but the whole green card thing is a problem). I hope and pray that you will continue to grow the business and meet the ever changing needs of the church.

Forgive me for not replying to each and every reply so far in this thread. I have had this item on my things list for a couple of weeks but I wanted to give it more than a brief look. 

1. I use Logos, along with other tools. 
2. My church uses an older "presentation" program. By older I mean the buy/own mode. Old also means in need of upgrade. We also use a common congregational communication's program. It  costs roughly half what Faithlife Equip would...but is a single use tool.
3. I like the comments about modularity. that would allow us to pick what we need now with the option to add more as it becomes needed. The price for our size congregation is in line with what other venders offer. Not every product is apples to apples, but when there is a valid comparison the prices are all in the same ball park.
4. We do have a lot of people who would leverage some of the other tools. About a third to a half of our church will be on phone/tablet during Sunday School and or Church.
5. Using Bob's tactful comments I did some research. (That's why it took me while...needed free time to look). Because I don't run a company I can be somewhat less gracious than Bob. (though I'm Bob too). Venture Capital is mounting a hostile take over of the CMS industry. What was particularly enlightening was reading comments on Glassdoor and similar sites. Employee's feel abused, misled, and directionless...
6. The Equity/Exit model of Venture Capital creates a dynamic space for technology companies to grow. CMS technology companies comprise a vertical market with, honestly, limited room for certain kinds of innovation. The venture model is great for individuals who are willing to make a high-stakes wager on themselves. (other shoe falling) It is not so great when you have other stake holders who may possibly gain if the bet succeeds, but who will be immeasurably harmed should it fail. For example...if I as a small church pastor sell my Elders on a CMS solution only to discover that the company is a subsidiary of a VC firm that, having gobbled up the competition is now in a position to raise prices with little threat to their business....I might get fired, we stop using a CMS...And having exited it may be years before my gun-shy board ever uses such a product again. The VC chokehold on the CMS conglomerate will likely hurt churches.

I am grateful that Bob has not only been transparent but that he has provided tools that have helped my preaching, teaching, and study. Yeah, I have had some gripes over the years...as I have had with my wife as well. (lol) At this point I don't know if our church is ready to make a move to Faithlife Equip...But I do know that when we do we've got a friend and champion in the business.

Working with a small church plant now (about 20 adult members to start and many more kids). This intro pricing seems like a steal. initially, my goal was to create a website. Looked at three church website providers, ranging from $30-$50/month. One of them offered integration with a ChMS solution—but only one(!) specific ChMS provider for integration. We’re seriously considering Faithlife Equip at this price point. i Already started playing around with the free website builder. First impression: not bad; nice simple interface and easy to learn; training videos and articles are easy to follow and helpful; not as robust as other church website providers, but certainly covers the necessities.

The content offering is pretty incredible (scaled down version of Logos [relative to what any serious logos user owns], access to all Mobile Ed videos(!), etc.), Proclaim, and online giving is great. The People/member management functionality is still in beta, but seems like something we will definitely utilize to some degree (though definitely not fully). The Faithlife Church Group aspect is also interesting to me. At our current church (from which we are planting), member outreach with news, events, prayer requests, etc. is all done by a secretary by email, which complicates managing, organizing, and following up on all that data. So I see Equip not only potentially reducing disparate data silos, but also potentially fostering simpler, more convenient contact and communication throughout the week.

I did have an issue with a bug on video widget on the website I’m playing around with at the moment, but support has been great. tech Support was helping me on Independence Day! In fact, I had initiated a chat with a tech support gentleman who was more than happy to help answer questions outside his role as support (his name was Slav), AND i lucked out and there happened to be a product specialist who (for some reason) showed up to the office on his day off and decided to help answer some questions for me about the Equip suite of products (His name was Alex). That level of of support is unmatched by the other three providers I’ve been looking into (each of which only specializes in church websites).

All that to say, I really think this is an enticing solution at an enticing price. im hoping to move forward with it as a church plant, and I see lots of room for growing into the array of functionality and content available, if we decide to move forward.

in any case, kudos to Faithlife!

P.s. Personally, Logos is my greatest concern, and I hope none of this results in any diminishment of Logos enhancements down the road!

Hi power users:

Many interesting posts. I  see the whole bit from a different angle.

When reading about chaplaincy, I was surprised by the Corporate type. Working there in the trenches of daily work life, a corporate chaplain is not only helping the people there (many times over burdened with all kind of problems), and that are in dire need of knowing the Savior Jesus Christ in a more real way.

We all know that companies appropriate the surplus of value production, very little goes into corporate social responsibility that makes a real change.

The way I see it, It would only be great if FL could get involved closer with the development of excellent corporate Chaplains, and see if through networking, the same could be hired to provide a very needed service in modern corporate America.

Persons in need of good counseling and help with life planning and management could be reached, and introduced to Logos and some of the "for real life" resources and tools that can be used to get right with God, and start enjoying the blessings that He may bestow as He wishes.

There are persons struggling with addiction, compulsions, illness, aging relatives, misbehaving children, debt, exploration, past abuse, in work abuse and harassment, etc. 

A well trained chaplain can really make a difference in such situations.

Once the value of such initiatives is realized by corporate America, then partnership can be formed, where they can give back to society by backing FL, to continue developing tools, resources, personnel  as they will allow trained Chaplains to:

Be of help in making moral business decisions.

Help in the labor relations where godly due process systems can be a boost to moral in the workforce, and a blessing from God's point of view.

Truly help persons find proper and effective help from God to learn how to navigate through the difficult times in life when tough situations arise.

Help the Glory of God fill the Earth, as predicted in the Bible.

Allow persons to learn more about Christian responsibility and stewardship, and to appropriate of the wisdom God has revealed in the Bible.

Eventually, multiply the chaplaincy corps, as persons that receive help, decide to be a tool of help eventually in gratefulness to God.

Just a very different angle for further research, reflection and constructive comment as needed.

Corporate America, business profit, corporate social responsibility, and the like, are not inherently bad. No body more appropriate than Christians to help redeem the bad parts of it, and help expand the Kingdom, and help the sheep get back to the flock.

Peace and grace.

Bob,

I tried to give a quick read-through of the other responses, so my response might not be too redundant.  I would affirm what many people have said.  Your customers appreciate the ability of giving you direct input.  However, I suspect that there are several who feel like I do, that the direction you are taking the company just happens to be different than what would best work for me, so my input may not be very helpful. However, you asked...

As a pastor, I would agree with those who say that most smaller churches won't want to wade into the water to try your church software, because it actually requires the church to jump in.  You have replied to these responses about cost.  However, when you say, "A lot of the functionality is 'free to test', but a small church can live in that zone just fine," I think you are missing some pieces of why many churches won't engage.  From you perspective, much of the software is "free to test," and your intention will be to keep the cost down fore very small churches.  However, that misses a couple of major issues for the average pastor/church.  Maybe first and foremost, many of the pastors on this forum appreciate figuring out and using more complex software.  However, most pastors I know are far too busy and disinterested to take the time to explore complex software. 

In my opinion, this has become a major problem with Logos.  I've been with Logos since 1996.  Back then, you marketed your software as a way to access (mainly scholarly) books, and it was very good at that.  Up to and through Libronix, I found myself talking up Logos to Pastors and Missionaries, without even trying.  I unintentionally converted dozens of ministry people, and even whole church staffs to Logos, because any pastor who knew the basics of computer software could begin saving huge time accessing their study material, right away.  While Libronix had begun to get more complicated, by version 4, most people I knew in ministry were no longer talking about how great and easy Logos made studying, but how they didn't have the time to put in, to get significant value from the program.  A common response to this by Logos has been "more training," often at a cost (and in fact you mentioned this in this thread, talking about access to training videos).  The problem is, that adds considerably MORE time required, so that I can potentially benefit from the software.  Also, many of the features I might learn how to use, if I don't use them regularly, than I forget how to use them, and have to spend hours going back and trying to find instructions/training on how to use those features, in the middle of trying to prepare a sermon, for instance.

I was always surprised because whenever I visited these forums, I read lots of pastors heralding all the new features of Logos, but I only knew a couple of pastors who felt that way.  Interestingly, a short time ago, there was finally a thread on this forum that addressed this, and I was surprised at how many of these same people who love the new features of Logos were expressing frustration about how complicated it is.  Also, when you moved to version 4, cost began to be a major factor.  I've had many pastors and missionaries tell me that the won't even consider Logos because of it's cost.

Sorry if this feels like a rant.  It is not intended to be.  I'm including all this because I think this is the very reason that you might have problems convincing many churches to try your church management software.  Like Logos, it takes time to learn and gain real value from a lot of new software.  Smaller churches have little to no paid staff. You mentioned that you'd like to make Equip as easy to use as Excel, which would be great.  However, you have to remember that for non-business people, Excel is often too complex to use.  However, it is so widely used in business that a significant amount of people already know how to use it's basic function.

So, even with "free to test" software, I have to take the time to figure out how the software works, and what value it would add to the church.  Then I need to train whichever office staff (mostly volunteer) to use it.  And, I'm doing this with "free to try" software, that might become no longer free at any point.  Or, if we grow, and use more of the capabilities, we will then have to pay an unknown future amount, and if we can't afford it, or the features aren't great for us, we will need to learn and retrain people to use some different software.  This is why churches (and pastors) particularly like buying/owning software, and specifically single purpose software.  It's not that we unsympathetic to your company's financial needs.  It's that the realities of ministry make spending large amounts of time, energy and money on software a negative, not a positive.  After all, the intended purpose of software is usually to REDUCE the amount of time, energy, and money it takes to minister.

Last thing.  For some of us long-time Logos users, the very thing that drew us to Logos is what is now concerning to us about the direction of Logos, and also makes people like me more hesitant to try this particular package from Faithlife with our churches.  I and many others bought Logos, and spend considerable money adding books in electronic form, because we were sold the idea that, "we are not selling software, we are selling books in an easier to access manor, and it won't cost you more to use them."  That's not exact wording, but that was the idea.  As Logos set it's sights on more advanced software capabilities, it required more staff, more costs on your end.  Like other software companies, there became a need for greater, and perhaps more perpetual revenue streams to keep the process going.  This lead to discussions of moving to subscription based use.  It also lead to massive, very expensive Logos programs, requiring cutting edge computers to work properly.  Add to that the practical need for constant internet connection for Logos to work well, and potential loss of ownership of purchased material, and many people in ministry are getting much more skeptical of Faithlife software.  What you are offering might well be beneficial for churches.  However, the nature of Logos, and potentially this church management software system, is that very quickly, one can feel trapped - it would be to hard/costly to go another direction.  While it might be easier to have the church's website, management software and sermon prep software under "one account," that means that if costs increase, or it quits being so beneficial for the church, it has already hitched it's whole wagon to that one account.  It would be much harder to switch for even one part of that process.  You could easily get too far in to make it worth looking at other options.

Sorry for the long post, but I appreciate your desire to get input for your customers, so I wanted to be really clear (I hope I was) 

So, all of this to say, for most churches, mine included, the software would have to be very quickly useful (of value), and not trap us into a particular direction in the future.  It's a brutal task to try to have software be of significant value and easy to use for a small church, and of great value for a much larger church as well.  I think the suggestion for modular options makes great sense here.  If I could get the church to try a thing or two that worked well, we would be more inclined to try more things from Faithlife as our needs increased.  We would not feel like any particular purchase puts us in a potentially tough place down the road.  Over all, we would much prefer to support a company that provides many specifically church based resources, with our business.  I very much appreciate that Faithlife's intention and perspective of truly aiding churches in ministry.  I hope that you guys can make the software more useful for us than what we currently use.

Thanks.

Hello Bob:

I'm just a lackey at our church, but we are a very large church of over 20,000 people who worship at something like 11 campuses.  I know that when I teach, our church prefers Pro Presenter (BIG learning curve) and has really been pushing all teaching leaders to switch from power point to pro-presenter.  Leaders and layman have access to online giving, child check in, accounts to Right Now Media, yada, yada yada.  I guess something to look in to (as I'm sure you already have considered) is how could you entice churches that already have much of what FL is offering to switch.   I know that "relationship" is big to churches and I would agree that even in our church, having someone to call who is a "personal rep" is a big deal.  Further, ease of use for layman (which I think has been an issue for FL, and certainly in Logos).  I don't think it's all about price point, unless it something completely out of budget no matter what.  Those are just come thoughts floating around in my head, for what it's worth.

Wishing you and FL all success as you seek to honor Him in all you do.

Cynthia Feenstra

P.S.  Al Het:  GREAT POST!

Bob,

That was a long and thoughtful post. Without spending a lot of time, might I add a suggestion that might help achieve your goal?

I have been with logos for over 10 years and it seems that 95% of the features added to the software are for Hebrew scholars (which the masses will never use) or church-wide software such as proclaim or equip (which many churches such as mine, which has 300 members, will not spend $125/mo for a subscription).

Here the profile of 95% of the people in my church and probably every other church:

1. Can't read Hebrew

2. Probably isn't interested in Hebrew

3. Probably isn't interested in the desktop full version of Logos

4. Desires the "best" mobile bible tool on the market

5. Happy with existing free ways to connect with church members (text messaging, facebook, a phone call)

I think your team should spend a LOT more time improving the features of the mobile apps to make them more layperson-friendly (while retaining the advanced features). I think there have been some wonderful advances such as the "reference scanner". But there are also glaring problems that probably do you more harm than good. The biggest issue is something I've already identified ad nauseam (ex., https://community.logos.com/forums/t/176232.aspx) which is a fundamental flaw.

I don't know if you are trying to "make more money" or just maintain the status quo, but the answer isn't through advanced Hebrew features which 95% of the church population isn't going to use. It also isn't through these social applications such as proclaim or equip because smaller churches, such as mine, will never pay the monthly fee. The way to make more money is to get your app to rank #1 on the app stores when people search "Bible" and make sure it's the best dog-gone mobile bible app on the market. If you do those two things and focus 100% on those two things for a while, your lay-users will start buying more resources and FL will make more money.

To be honest this software is so expensive, cumbersome, troublesome, and difficult to use that I keep it for one reason....because I have had it.  I use other less expensive, easier to use, and closer to my theological training for exegesis in my counseling ministry.  Nor would I recommend this mess to another christian, a local church congregation, or a client to use in their own personal devotions.  Want me to spend more...than clean this interface up...lower its cost...add an option to get rid of predigested data basis...make the library easier to use (only the Divine knows how I am suppose to manage the pathetic library I have)....and perhaps be less "premiere" in advertising-yes I know I need just one more bundle to be able to fully use the product.  In the end my gut tells me, although I have no proof, that my license will one day be in the hands of a conglomeration that will try to sell me my favorite Kindle books along with a hefty discount on their newly acquired bible engine. 

Forgive this scattered brain dump; but I really wanted to share. I apologize if I ramble a little off-topic.

I've been using Logos since 1996. When I first began using it, only one professor at my Christian College had ever heard of it. Within two years, I had gotten ~12 professors and ministerial students to adopt Logos. At seminary I continued to promote Logos, and have ever since.

Almost all my family, friends, and clients are using Logos as per my recommendation and demonstrating for them. I've created a manual that moves slowly from basics, into more advanced, and finally into doing inductive bible study using paid versions of Logos' with advanced tools. Many of these folks are not necessarily more tech-savvy than the average person their age; and some of them are in their 70's. I created the manual so it imports nicely into Personal Books, and many of them enjoy using it that way. I've also used Logos as a powerful evangelistic and apologetic tool -- folks are blown away when they visually see the breadth, depth, and history of Christianity. Walking someone though Logos sparks so many valuable questions and interesting revelations for folks.

I think Logos is for everyone. It's simple enough for a newbie to the software (or to Christianity) -- but complex enough for theology professors. In recent years, Logos has done a great job of putting out high quality, easy to follow, beginner training videos. The first thing I point out to a newbie is the robust help files ([F1]) and the online videos.

I truly believe that Logos can, and does, cater to all audiences. It's akin to Microsoft Word or Excel in this way -- easy to use with a tiny bit of demonstration -- but incredibly complex and robust for heavy end-users. I think that segmented marketing, branding, and training is the key to get many more to adopt this amazing tool -- i.e. LOGOS.

With respect to church products / services / technologies -- I've done a great deal of implementing many various systems in different non-profits and churches. I've often been disappointed with many of the vendors I've used (whether talent management, online giving, church database, etc) -- I've rarely found entities that are both Christocentric in their values, beliefs, attitudes -- AND competent in their products / services. In fact, it pains me to say, most vendors I've worked with have lacked the values and the competency (compared to secular companies). That is to say, I'd love to see Logos become the leader in every service, product, and industry that fits within your call and capacity.

Since 1996 I've had a continued excellent relationship with Logos and have always been able to recommend you from both a competency stand point, and a customer / technical service standpoint.

On a personal note, I do understand why Logos has so many different divisions / brands. I really wish it were just one consolidated entity (e.g. "Faithlife" -- bible software powered by Logos... sort of like buying a Dell computer that has Intel inside). For myself, it's not a big deal... but for all the people I get to adopt Logos -- it's always a bit confusing for them.

Thanks for all you do. Logos has literally changed my life. One of my greatest joys is working with 2nd and 3rd world Christian business leaders and pastors -- and equipping them to enhance their ministries with Logos.

We’ve been building Logos Bible Software since 1991. It’s the heart of everything we do, and of accomplishing our mission:

We use technology to equip the Church to grow in the light of the Bible.

Logos is the premiere tool for people who are serious about Bible study. It’s heavily used by pastors, scholars, seminary students, and lay people.

But people who are serious about Bible study -- and want to use a powerful, dedicated tool for study -- are a small percentage of most churches. We want to serve everyone in the church, and we know that many people ‘grow in the light of the Bible’ through classes, small groups, video, and free content on the web.... 

This is the best Bible study tool I have ever used, hands down! I would be very lost if something were to happen and we did not have this tool any longer. 

We’ve been building Logos Bible Software since 1991. It’s the heart of everything we do, and of accomplishing our mission:

We use technology to equip the Church to grow in the light of the Bible.

Logos is the premiere tool for people who are serious about Bible study. It’s heavily used by pastors, scholars, seminary students, and lay people.

But people who are serious about Bible study -- and want to use a powerful, dedicated tool for study -- are a small percentage of most churches. We want to serve everyone in the church, and we know that many people ‘grow in the light of the Bible’ through classes, small groups, video, and free content on the web.

Faithlife Equip is our platform for helping everyone in every church grow in the light of the Bible. We believe an integrated platform (one account!) is of great value to the church, and that the more we integrate the daily ‘mechanics and logistics’ of the church (member management, communications, calendar, giving, website, etc.) with biblical content (sermons, curriculum, Bible study, videos, etc.) the more likely it is that we can engage and serve the whole church.

My church, Trinity Bible Church, Phoenix, AZ, uses material from 9Marks and The Gospel Coalition.  Both of these organizations are very supportive of expository preaching.  Our belief is that preaching directly out of the Bible text week after week will benefit our congregation by emphasizing the importance we should be putting on the Word of God.  These sermons also serve to train the congregants in the basics of hermeneutics.  Historical and cultural context is dealt with, as well as an appreciation for the effort that goes into exegesis.  It is an opportunity for the preacher to provide training by example.

I suggest that if Logos were to pick up the mantle of championing expository preaching, you would be helping pastors to awaken their congregations to the necessity of opening their Bibles during the week.  This could help to increase the percentage of those interested in serious Bible study.

You have very good book resources available on this topic.  However, the mobile training is a bit on the expensive side and is somewhat limited.  The least expensive offer, which does mention expository preaching, is over nine hundred dollars.

Hi Bob,

Somewhat late to this, but here goes:

• Make it modular with separate prices.  We cannot migrate wholesale (or afford the whole package if I am paying for other services) but I would love to use the educational part of this and maybe in time other parts.
• Allow integrations into other platforms as you have done with Planning Center and Proclaim.  It helps enormously.

I've been using Logos since v1.2 and not been disappointed so far!  Keep going brother.