Welcome to the Messianic Jewish Products forum!

Wonderful, I'm super excited about this!!

Please move this forum into the appropriate spot in the list of forums.

David Roberts said:

I was quite disappointed to see so much reformation theology books

Goodness! Bad humor, but maybe either (a) they renamed a reformation package from years back, or (b) are wanting MJ's to reform.  It does sound quite disappointing. Maybe that's why all the reform Logosians were so excited?

Daniel Motley (Faithlife) said:

Hi Mr. Roberts,

Thanks so much for your feedback. We're always looking to improve our offerings for the future. You mention that there are "lots of Reformation books in the Messianic base package". Are there specific resources that you find problematic? Understanding which ones you find troublesome will go a long way to help us increase the quality of base packages for the future.

Thanks!

Thank you for being open for feedback. I'm truly touched. I'll make a list when I get home from work and I'll explain all the rationales.

I don't know if you know, but I'm the original poster from way back in 2015 who compiled a list of resources and posted in suggestions for a Messianic Base Package.

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/99280.aspx?PageIndex=1

Regardless of what I believe are some shortcomings, you've placed some great resources in there.

I hope word gets around in the Messianic community about it. You might want to go to Messianic conferences with a table and showcase what Logos can do to get word out.

Hi Mr. Motley and Mr. Roberts,

Just wanted to say that we are very excited about the new Messianic Jewish base packages!!

In response to Mr. Roberts' posts and your comments regarding potential changes to the packages in the future, I just wanted to point out that there is as much diversity within the Messianic communities as there is within any other theological-denominational grouping (consider the many groups of Jewish or Evangelical adherents). There are those within Messianic Jewish communities that would agree with aspects of Reformation theology and even with parts of Calvin's teachings. As such, it would seem better to include a wider variety of materials rather than to remove materials. If we limit ourselves to only those resources with whom we completely agree, we will have very small libraries indeed.

Many thanks to Logos for the new base packages! We can't wait to pick one out and begin reading.

Greeting DAL, and other posters of this thread.

DAL, hope you do not mind using your post to have some questions posted, as the thread originator does not have a reply button.

First question (anyone's input welcome):  What is the best way to have a collection with all the MJ resources included for searching? Do I have to tag each resource, or just write in the rule box "Messianic Jew", "Messianic Judaism"?

Or is there a MJ package collection somewhere in FL group?

Another question: Do you know of any resource that compares the Evangelical worldview to the "largest MJ group" worldview?

Quickly browsing the net I see that there are many groups within MJ, and they have different views on different topics.

Some topics I would like to see compared:

In general what is the most common view of MJ about creation? and how does it compares to that of evangelicals?

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/171640/a-john-haught-reader-essential-writings-on-science-and-faith

Trinity: Some bible studying believers think that is wrong to refer to God and His Hypostasis as "persons", because God is way above and beyond our contextual understanding of person.

What is MJ view on God's Hypostasis (Divine Substantive Realities) that are perceived by us as persons, because of our limited ontological status?

Sovereignty of God and free will: some believers think that because God could in His omniscience foresee what each creature would do with his / her free will, He was able to assign a Wheat or Tare status to each respecting what was the leaning in the heart: was the person after being created use free will to accept God as Lord and Savior, and accept the adopted children status or not.

What would be MJ view on this? How in their view one person gets to be Wheat or Tare?

Deification (Theosis): Being a living stone part of the New Temple of God (body of Christ), does not mean that that living stone is the Spirit that indwells such New Temple. Thus true sheep of God know that creatures will never have self-existence (aseity), as that is a non-communicable attribute of God, and precisely what makes Him worthy of Worship.  We will always depend on Him for our continued existence because we are creatures.

What is MJ view on this?

Entrance into the New Covenant: just as there were pre requisites set by God to enter the OT, the New Covenant has its own God set pre requisites:

Read / Hear, understand, repent, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior (accept Him and His sacrifice for us for salvation), baptize as per Acts 2:38, receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, walk humbly with your God doing as He tells you: good works in gratitude for a freely bestowed salvation, not to be saved by such works.

Without the prerequisites done, and the gift of the Holy Spirit who is our seal, one remains in the foolish virgin category liable to go through the tribulation, while those that comply with the prerequisites and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, are to be raptured to the supper of the wedding of the Lamb.

Many MJ are of a charismatic leaning, but what is their take about the rapture?

Authority in the Church: God is the ultimate authority on His church. The Holy Spirit communicates who He wants, for what purpose, and other details.  Man made choices are usually not in accordance to God's will.

What is the take MJ have on this important matter?

Healing and miracles: true believers know that the miracle worker has always been Jesus Christ, and as He makes Himself present in services (as promised, to be with us to the end), He continues to do good because God is good and his h: heed is forever (not until the closing of the Canon).

Do many MJ agree with the above?

There are a myriad other important topics, so that takes us to a key question: is there a MJ Systematic Theology?

I assume that MJ and other posters are very interested in the topics above, remember I write to obtain information on their worldview, and not to start polemics.  The main aim is to promote further research, reflection and constructive and appropriate comment.

Thanks ahead of time for useful input.

Peace and grace. Shalom.

Rob Lambert said:

With that said, one weakness is that Logos doesn't seem to have much to help some stand alone guy learn Hebrew.  I can listen to Dr. Futado and his course is great.   I can also continue to use Dr. Heiser's videos on how to use the hebrew interlinear bibles (very good resource, just expensive and out of date in that it uses Logos 6) but, there is nothing for me to hear any real Hebrew.  How bout a Hebrew audio bible and some resources on the actual pronunciation of the language.   

Hebrew is difficult to learn with only my eyes and my brain.... i sure would like to involve my ears.

Almost anything you hear is going to be based on Modern Hebrew, which has some considerable differences for about 40-50% of the phonemes (consonants & vowels). This has been discussed before on the forum. I've also pointed out that Futato, and pretty much all the other "experts" as well, give pronunciations in their grammars that are demonstrably wrong (i.e. non-historical)...and most openly admit it. Logos has a Hebrew Audio resource, voiced by Randall Buth, I believe. He's pretty well-known for his reconstruction of Koine Greek, but I have grave misgivings about much of his Hebrew pronunciation. Often I hear people say "I don't care if it's historically legit...I just want to know how others pronounce it now." There is a set of mp3 files available on the internet of a rabbi reading the entire Tanakh:, for what it's worth. Just be aware...practicing Jews of today have WIDE variations in their pronunciations. In other words, what you will end up with is basically a crap shoot, and I fear the dice are loaded.

Rob Lambert said:

What a wonderful new package.   

It has much of what I want and need; and, as soon as it goes on a big sale I am going to snap up the Diamond package if I can swing it.

......

Now, let's get that big introductory sale going!!!!!

Same for me. Just waiting for the sale. Hope it comes soon.

One other short comment.

I'm very appreciative that Logos is trying hard to provide Messianic base packages; it's a wonderful sentiment and I'm sure it'll get all ironed out, but....You really need to remove "Martin Luther: A Guide to His Life and Writings".

Luther, yimach sh'mo, is a truly detestable enemy of the Jewish people who sewed the seeds of the holocaust with writings such as "On the Jews and their Lies" where he called for the burning of synagogues and claims "G-d will judge Christians for not killing more Jews".  Happy to acknowledge heroes of the faith like Wycliffe, Jan Hus, etc. but the guy who wanted to delete James and Hebrews from the Apostolic writings is just a little too much to bear in a "Messianic Jewish" set.

I realize he is a hero for my protesting-Catholic friends, but he's not our hero. Please receive this with love, it's a beautiful thing you guys do over there at Logos and I'm very grateful to have these tools.

-Jeremiah

NB.Mick said:

Jeremiah said:

it turns out, if you scroll down past the first 2 entries that make it seem like you're getting this product "LHBOTS 382 volumes" to the part where individual items are listed, there's a little icon of a semicircle.  I thought "what's that?"

If you hover over it, an alt tag popup says,

"109 out of 384 resources in this collection are included".  

This looks like a serious error. Moreover, if I go looking up the complete serious, it tells me that the product is included in the Messianic Jewish Diamond Base Package which - as you found out - seems not to be the case.

Let's be cautious here, please.

I never bought LHBOTS separately (or any other package that contained it), but I happen to own that entire collection since purchasing Messianic Jewish Diamond last month.

I randomly checked about 10 of the LHBOTS monographs that didn't show up within the LHBOTS 109 volume partial collection, and I not only own them, but they were added to my library on the day I purchased the base package.

The reason is that many of the LHBOTS monographs are not grouped under "Library of Hebrew Bible / Old Testament Studies (LHBOTS)" where you'd expect them, but show up within the more general "Old Testament Studies" collection.

Confusing at first to list many LHBOTS monographs separately? Definitely. But as other product pages confirm, the entire LHBOTS does appear to be included in Messianic Jewish Diamond package.

Thanks Daniel and PetahChristian.

That's great news!

OK, so looking more closely, it seems that all the items LHBOTS are actually listed in diamond, they just are spattered around outside of the LHBOTS folder so they look like individual items appearing in other sections of the listing. 

It makes it kind of hard when doing a valuation to separate out items mixed in when the myriad of listings from LHBOTS, many of which have their own folders as well.  It also makes it look like someone is getting LHBOTS + those hundreds of items listed elsewhere in the Messianic Diamond descriptions.  Just be aware folks. I took a few hours and combed through; often when I found interesting things in Messianic Diamond which I don't have, I cross checked with the Logos listing for the LHBOTS product (the separate listing for it on its own page) and I found that item was in LHBOTS.

It'd be nice if there was an easier way also to search on the Neusner products which are in the diamond package as they are spattered around; since I'll be on a payment plan I may like to add a few more Neusner items before checking out (I noticed a couple Neusner packages I had in my cart were removed when I added Diamond but not everything in those packages are in Diamond). 

For anyone interested, this was answered for me very well by Denise and PetahChristian in my post over here.

A resource that I use to help me with pronunciation is www.bibleinhebrew.com

Blessings,

Rabbi Steve Sheek

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