Perspectives on discipleship type resources.

Hi power users:

Is there a resource that touches upon different denominational perspectives about discipleship?

I am interested in a comparative study of the different ways denominations see discipleship, and what they consider to be key elements of it.

What is similar in all different denominational angles, what is different, why they think certain items are more important than others and how that compares with Biblical theology about discipleship.

In the development of doctrine, there may be particular thrusts that are important but not necessarily treated in detail in the Bible.

e.g. Can there be disciples even though there is no presence of Jesus and the Apostles in flesh? How about the presence of the Holy Spirit, does He take the role of mentor due to Jesus order to do as He prescribed?

What do you consider to be the key passage for it (e.g. Mat 28:19)?

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Hamilton Ramos

Regardless of denominational view on discipleship, there are authors that are extracting interesting principles from the Bible that merit closer study:

"Coordinating Sherman’s conclusions with my findings from the previous chapter on the offices of Christ in Matthew and with Cooper’s discussion, a discipleship reading of Matthew emerges where the first third of Matthew emphasizes royal discipleship and baptism, the middle third emphasizes prophetic discipleship and the life-giving Word, and the final third emphasizes priestly discipleship and the Lord’s Supper."

Dukeman, J. A. (2019). Mutual hierarchy: a new approach to social trinitarianism. Eugene, Oregon: Wipf and Stock.

So discipleship under the different optics of: King (royal member of God's family for us), Prophet (stewards of the gifts of the Holy Spirit), and Priest (devotional and doctrinal aspects).

Wonder how that would jibe with metrics?

"Jesus counted, and the early church kept track of numbers. Therefore it is not unreasonable to expect churches today to use metrics to increase their effectiveness in doing God's work on earth. This book is designed to help churches increase their ministry effectiveness by helping church leaders measure the right things, in the best way, for the right reasons. This book deals with more than the mere how of measurement. Each chapter delineates a theology and philosophy designed to ensure that churches are measuring the right things for the right reasons."

Hoyt, W. R. (2011). Effectiveness by the numbers: counting what counts in the church. Nashville: Abingdon Press.

Together there could be something of value to systematize efforts at making disciples. Denominational perspectives on discipleship in turn could bring focus on particular aspects of the full equation, allowing to define better KPI (key performance indicators).

Thoughts, ideas, experiences and the like welcome, feel free to share your mind.

Peace and grace.

Allen Browne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1079556#Comment_1079556

Hi Hamilton

I read your question earlier, but wasn’t able to provide any guidance towards an answer. Perhaps we could help you think about the question?

Based on what you asked, you might need to start with, “What is discipleship?” That might take you to lexicons on mathētēs. You could use Logos’ Bible Word Study on μαθητής. You could run a Bible search for <Lemma = lbs/el/μαθητής>. That will leave you searching for what other word(s) could be used for the same concept after the gospels and Acts. Or is the word limited to Jesus’ apprentices?

You may want to look at other models of training new disciples in church history. Was the Didache an early attempt? The rule of faith? The creeds? Differences between East and West? Differences over who says (e.g. the magisterium vs sola scriptura). What about the catechisms offered by the various churches: are they basic discipleship?

Your question also has a teleological aspect, i.e. what do you see as the goal of discipleship (or whatever other word you choose for it)? That might help you decide the Holy Spirit’s role in forming the life of Christ in the people he regenerates, and how we might participate with him in that process.

Or perhaps only some of those questions are of interest. There are heaps of books on discipleship. Hopefully this post helps clarify the question, so you can decide which ones will help develop your thinking.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1079650#Comment_1079650

Hi Allen:

Thanks for the input. Good ideas to investigate further.

I have been looking at different resources.

Goal: Christlike formation in believers maybe?

Jesus words: go and make disciples... teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

Should not that be a direction path?

So we could probably start with what has He commanded, how it differs from what was commanded in OT?

Teaching is a big word, do we know what He implied when Jesus mentioned it? Is teaching in His cultural context same as ours?

How about discipling in the East vs. our own West conception?

Did discipling in the East in Jesus' times included clarifying the correct worldview according to Jesus (i.e. supernaturalism), or is it meant to be adjusted to a different dominant worldview according to context? (i.e. now modern naturalism).

Many discipling books do not consider the above and thus are really in the dark.

Then you have groups that have experiences that run counter their fabricated worldview:

Some missionaries gave Bibles in the native language to persons in Camboya, and left. Lo and behold as no worldview was given with it, they adjusted to the one in the Bible, and miracles, healing, and the like started to happen.

It just happens that the group was cessationists, and forgot to tell the people in Camboya about it.

So what do we make of such experience?

A discipleship program teaching cessationism is congruent with the Scripture?

If the analysis of the author in: Dukeman, J. A. (2019). Mutual hierarchy: a new approach to social trinitarianism. Eugene, Oregon: Wipf and Stock.

is correct, then doors are open for crafting a better process for discipleship.

Jesus as King in 1st third of Matthew: we as little brothers in preparation for royal family living need to know about proper baptism Acts 2:38, baptism of the Holy Spirit (born of Spirit), Stewardship of Assets, management of conflict and relations, Spiritual Warfare, making a living and safeguarding the institutions that help preserve order, morals, means of making a living, etc. which may include curtailing the influence of big biz on politics, etc.

Jesus as Prophet (2nd third of Matthew): God is naturally supernatural, thus when He shows up, supernatural things are bound to happen. How can someone say that Jesus is not around when persons of the stature of Jonathan Edwards had a personal experience with Jesus in 1737?

Jesus is not a man to lie, if He said He was going to be around to the end of time, He will.

In Being in line with Jesus as prophet, and we as looking for Christlikeness, then is logical to take Paul seriously and seek for the higher gifts of the Spirit so the Body of Christ can be edified.

Jesus as Priest (3rd third of Matthew): "Priesthood of all believers", sound familiar, if the fire come from above (Holy Spirit) has to be kept burning, then we have to develop our devotional and doctrinal knowledge, and application to eventually irradiate Holiness, Power from above, and effective witness to start multiplying the disciples Jesus wants.

We must bear fruit in all 3 areas, some will have a calling to excel more in some, and become specialists, but all should master the basics.

This is a fascinating topic, and many have written about it, but the Jesus as model in a King, Prophet, and Priest role, seems to me to give the best didactic conceptual framework.

Peace and grace.

Hamilton Ramos

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1079650#Comment_1079650

Hi again Allen:

Did some quick research on what you suggested.

Some of the angles seem problematic. To classify disciples as those actually having a relation with Jesus while He was around in flesh, would right up rule Paul out, which we know is not the case.

Then we have Jesus Himself saying that Disciples were to make more disciples in the context of nations. He seems to imply that the new disciples will have a different type of relation with the mentor: instead of Him, it would be the Holy Spirit.

Now, a neat angle I found:

The New learning left by Jesus for us to explore jibes with Isaiah saying that God was going to come and explain straight up how it really is.

Following the Priesthood of all believers (after Jesus' work), then we see that studying the explanation of what OT really means (explained in NT), we could together with guidance of the Holy Spirit, understand what God really wants (mercy, love of God in Heart Romans 5:5, weightier matters of the Law, etc), and would be empowered by the HS to carry such out.

Jesus promised that the one who did His will would be visited by God and He Himself would manifest to such person, and there seems to be no temporal limitation on that.

Note that the foremost command is to love God, and that can only be done by prescribed way: Romans 5:5.

Jesus also told the inquiring human to search the Scriptures and to try to understand what it said, at no time He referred the inquirer to the creed of Saducees, nor doctrine of Pharisees, nor insights of Gamaliel.

So even though groups try to teach interpretations, we have the duty to see if things are so.

Thanks for the input and good ideas, God Bless.