Is Logos still the best? (disappointment with Journal of Biblical Literature pre-pub turns into grip

WARNING: WHAT FOLLOWS IS A GRIPE SESSION; IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR THE TEMPERAMENT, PASS OVER THIS.

I am somewhat disappointed that the Journal of Biblical Literature is still stuck in the Pre-Pub gathering interest stage. I was really looking forward to having JBL incorporated into my Logos library but it still hasn't happened yet. I know there is another thread that talks about the merits of JBL in hopes of getting more interest, but still it hasn't garnered any more interest. Now another bible program (Accordance) will be releasing the exact same set of JBL on its platform (thanks to Rick Mansfield for posting this).

I have recommended Logos for Bible software exclusively to friends/colleagues/etc. because only Logos had the plethora/breadth of resources. Now others are catching up. I was excited that Logos is releasing Zondervan titles, but that other bible program will be offering the exact same titles also. Logos used to offer Westminster/John Knox titles, but no more (I know this isn't Logos' decision, but what can we do to get WJK to switch back to Logos?)

I think all this amounts to lower pride in my Logos library. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy using Logos and still do recommend it, but it is no longer the only program I recommend. Does anyone feel the same way I do?

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Comments

Douglas McMasters

Ok, you convinced me. I placed a pre-pub.

I, too, get frustrated with some of the prepubs languishing. Unfortunately, they are market driven. And let's face it, the primary buyer of Logos material seems to be of the conservative/evangelical nature. I've also had JBL on prepub for a long time - in fact, one of my prepubs has been sitting there for four years! And it won't get better, I'm afraid.

On the other hand, I was quite pleased when the Harvard Classics collection and the Fortress Pastoral Care series went to prepub when I didn't expect that it would happen.

However - Logos is still the program I recommend and will continue to recommend. There is much I don't care for in Logos offerings, but there are also many things that I do appreciate. Now if we could only get the ICC at a lower price. Sigh.

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108504#Comment_108504

Ok, you convinced me. I placed a pre-pub.

[Y]. For those interested here is the link to the product page http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/3625

Edit

Tom Reynolds

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108509#Comment_108509

Good job Paul, you're two orders closer to production!

Paul Knopf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108511#Comment_108511

Woohoo!

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108516#Comment_108516

I am surprised to hear some others are catching up with Logos, I don't keep up with others, but I always thought Logos had more resources than others.

What we don't know is what the model is that economically justifies Logos publishing a new work on prepub or community, does it have to breakeven from the initial orders? Does it presume some model of purchases over the next year? Does it presume that if say there are 50% more titles published a year from now, overall Logos revenue goes up because they "win"customers to their platform?

I only hope Logos has and keeps the "big picture" on their economic model. Being too granular in their publishing decisions could hurt us all severly in the long run.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108522#Comment_108522

Ironically, as Logos gets bigger, it costs more for them to offer resources than it does their competitors. We expect references to other material to be properly linked, if that other material exists in Logos. The more that exists in Logos, the more links are required, and the greater the cost of creating the links. For something like JBL, that's an awful lot of potential markup that needs to be done to things like lexicons, technical commentaries, Church Fathers, Qumran scrolls, Philo and other intertestamental literature, and so on. This is not something that can be done by someone on minimum wage - it would need a seminary graduate to manually create and check all these links. That costs $$$.

Those links will make the Logos offering more valuable to me than the competition, but I suppose it could theoretically mean sometimes we don't get the resource because the expense is just too much.

David A. Peterson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108526#Comment_108526

Is Logos still the best?

Yes.

William

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108542#Comment_108542

Ok I am in....Thanks TED!!!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108526#Comment_108526

The more that exists in Logos, the more links are required, and the greater the cost of creating the links. For something like JBL, that's an awful lot of potential markup that needs to be done to things like lexicons, technical commentaries, Church Fathers, Qumran scrolls, Philo and other intertestamental literature, and so on. This is not something that can be done by someone on minimum wage - it would need a seminary graduate to manually create and check all these links.

I was under the impression that a certain amount of this can be automated now, but someone with the proper training would still need to proof the results, and/or do some pre-processing proofing to bring the references into some consistent standard. Not all books use consistent abbreviations and references for ancient titles they are citing, etc. It is still a labor intensive job, and indeed gets somewhat more time consuming the more resources Logos has the ability to link to.

Rosie Perera

WARNING: WHAT FOLLOWS IS A GRIPE SESSION...

Ha! I was setting myself up for a massively negative spewing of complaint language, given your warning, but your post was very gentle and tame compared to some I've seen in these forums. Thanks for your restraint. [:)]

I am somewhat disappointed that the Journal of Biblical Literature is still stuck in the Pre-Pub gathering interest stage. I was really looking forward to having JBL incorporated into my Logos library but it still hasn't happened yet.

I ordered this back in November. I'm looking forward to it too. Journals are excellent resources for searching out particular interpretation questions on passages of Scripture. JBL is highly respected and this is a great price. The SRP is unrealistically inflated (it's probably what Libraries and Institutions have to pay for the print edition because all their patrons can use them, but no individual would ever buy them at that price). Nevertheless, the pre-pub price is half of the eventual price Logos will sell this for, and that is among the best deals to be had in the pre-pub program.

Paul Knopf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108660#Comment_108660

One bonus of the Logos version, if it can get to production, is that the pre-pub price through Logos (currently $149) is cheaper that the published price of the other program ($200).

Thanks for the kind words...been thinking about this for a while, finally posted it.

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108725#Comment_108725

I had ordered this ages ago and then cancelled last month in a fit of economy (I had to spend £2000 having the car fixed), but I have rebid today for several reasons:

It is really a bargain.
It is really useful
I want be able to access it on ATLASerials after the summer
I am just a soft touch and you folks had me almost in tears. [:'(]

Whatever – I'm back in.

HJ. van der Wal

I think all this amounts to lower pride in my Logos library. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy using Logos and still do recommend it, but it is no longer the only program I recommend. Does anyone feel the same way I do?

The only reason why I wouldn't recommend Logos to anyone is that Logos is tempting me to spend more and more money (and yes, I have already placed a pre-pub for JBL). Besides, my impression is that most students/ministers here in the Netherlands have never heard of either Acc....nce or Logos/SESB. The dominant academic Bible program is B....W.... which doesn't offer any journals at all.

There is only one module for which I envy Acc....nce users and that is the tagged Kaufmann Hebrew Mishna. It's a pity that even a great pre-pub like Jastrow's Hebrew/Aramaic dictionary can't make it into production, much less a tagged Hebrew Mishna.

Still, Logos is by far the best!

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108526#Comment_108526

We expect references to other material to be properly linked, if that other material exists in Logos. The more that exists in Logos, the more links are required, and the greater the cost of creating the links.

That is not totally true. While some work must be done hands on, some of this linking is done with a special program Logos created.

Blessings

Nick Watson

One more order on pre-pub just went in...

Pam Larson

This one is my oldest pre-pub that's not yet under production. At least I saved a little money by ordering it almost 2 years ago, as I see the price has gone up since then.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109130#Comment_109130

This went on prepub in Jan of 2008 and covered issues up through 2006. Now that two years have gone by I'm hoping Logos will update the collection by a couple of more years.

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109130#Comment_109130

One more order on pre-pub just went in...

[Y]

Bob Pritchett

Good news:

A) As we produce more content, our cost per page generally goes down. (Efficiencies of scale, etc.)

We've committed to even more content this year. Last year we aimed for (and got close to) 2,000 new "volumes" published. (A book is one volume; a 42 volume commentary is 42 volumes.) This year we're aiming for 4,000.

C) The pre-pub program is designed to keep us from losing money, and to keep us out of debt. We aim to break even by the time we ship, which means we don't have to borrow money in hopes of earning it back in the coming years. We earn it back when the pre-pub ships, which is much sooner. Some pre-pubs never really sell much after the initial release, and others turn into steady sales streams. As we gain more experience and historical data, we can make better predictions about what books will do what business. As a result, we're sometimes "flipping the switch" on a pre-pub when it has, say, 70% commitment, because we can predict that it will continue to get orders and sell into the future.

This lets us smooth out the production stream. We always prefer doing titles at 100% commitment, but because of varying sizes, different skills available on the team, etc. we sometimes have gaps. Doing books before they hit 100% smooths out the gaps and makes production more predictable for us and our partners, lowering costs per page.

Don't get me wrong -- we still need and want books to hit 100%! -- but if something makes it over 70%, there's a good chance it's going all the way, and possibly sooner than you'd predict from the graphic thermometer. (We really do want to cover costs, because borrowing money to do pre-pubs would just raise our risk and our expenses. And we need the "post-cost-recovery" sales to subsidize the software development and the rest of operations...)

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108824#Comment_108824

There is only one module for which I envy Acc....nce users and that is the tagged Kaufmann Hebrew Mishna.

They also have Catena Aurea. I am a long term user of both applications, and I heartily recommend both. However, with the release of L4, I personally think that Logos has moved ahead.

Alan Macgregor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109635#Comment_109635

with the release of L4, I personally think that Logos has moved ahead.

You're not the only one Jack. My PhD supervisor has been a long-term Mac user and uses the Voldemort (He-who-must-not-be-named) Bible App. However, when he came back from the SBL conference where they had a demo of VBA and Logos 4, he stated that Logos clearly had the edge. In addition he noted the real enthusiasm of the person who was doing the demo.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109648#Comment_109648

uses the Voldemort (He-who-must-not-be-named) Bible App.

LOL That's just too funny.

Stephen Paynter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109569#Comment_109569

Good news:

...

C) .... As a result, we're sometimes "flipping the switch" on a pre-pub when it has, say, 70% commitment, because we can predict that it will continue to get orders and sell into the future.

This lets us smooth out the production stream. We always prefer doing titles at 100% commitment, but because of varying sizes, different skills available on the team, etc. we sometimes have gaps. Doing books before they hit 100% smooths out the gaps and makes production more predictable for us and our partners, lowering costs per page.

This is indeed good news ... I thought I noticed something like this happen with the Themelios pre-oub, and can only hope that the Journal of Biblical Literature will soon follow suit. I'm guessing that journals have a good steady sales stream to them.

Can you give us any hints as to whether we will see any more top-notch academic journals in pre-pub soon? Is part of the problem, many of these are published with publishers that don't currently have a relationship with Logos?

Rev. D.

WARNING: WHAT FOLLOWS IS A GRIPE SESSION; IF YOU DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR THE TEMPERAMENT, PASS OVER THIS.

I am somewhat disappointed that the Journal of Biblical Literature is still stuck in the Pre-Pub gathering interest stage. I was really looking forward to having JBL incorporated into my Logos library but it still hasn't happened yet. I know there is another thread that talks about the merits of JBL in hopes of getting more interest, but still it hasn't garnered any more interest. Now another bible program (Accordance) will be releasing the exact same set of JBL on its platform (thanks to Rick Mansfield for posting this).

I have recommended Logos for Bible software exclusively to friends/colleagues/etc. because only Logos had the plethora/breadth of resources. Now others are catching up. I was excited that Logos is releasing Zondervan titles, but that other bible program will be offering the exact same titles also. Logos used to offer Westminster/John Knox titles, but no more (I know this isn't Logos' decision, but what can we do to get WJK to switch back to Logos?)

I think all this amounts to lower pride in my Logos library. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy using Logos and still do recommend it, but it is no longer the only program I recommend. Does anyone feel the same way I do?

My brother, Paul:

I trust your recommendation and passion regarding this resource that I failed to even notice. I've added myself to the pre-pub list and thanks for sharing as I would have hated to miss out on this resource.

Regards,

Christina

Paul Knopf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110146#Comment_110146

Hi Christina,

Thanks for ordering. I believe the JBL is a work that can stand on it's own, without my recommendation. If you would like to see a sample article from JBL, I can send one to you so you can evaluate it on your own.

Peace,

Paul

HJ. van der Wal

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/109635#Comment_109635

They also have Catena Aurea. I am a long term user of both applications, and I heartily recommend both. However, with the release of L4, I personally think that Logos has moved ahead.

I still haven't lost hope that the Catena Aurea will make it into production one day.

Although I am still "on the dark side" most of the time, I also own an old Mac since 2008 (thanks to the missionary activity of a fellow elder in my church and my curiosity about the Logos 3-beta back then). The free trial demo of that other application looks and feels much better than BW, but I still prefer Logos.

Paul Knopf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/110254#Comment_110254

JBL is so tantalizingly close to going into production. Does anyone else want to preorder JBL? It's definitely worth it, IMHO.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163631#Comment_163631

JBL is a bit like Barnes Notes on the Community Pricing Page. They have become landmarks on the website and we would lose our way if we didn't have them as a reference point on the website... 'oh yeah... surf to this page and take a left at JBL and then straight ahead keep left of Barnes Notes.' You see what I mean? It would be disastrous!

BTW, I have placed orders for both!

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163639#Comment_163639

JBL is a bit like Barnes Notes on the Community Pricing Page. They have become landmarks on the website and we would lose our way if we didn't have them as a reference point on the website... 'oh yeah... surf to this page and take a left at JBL and then straight ahead keep left of Barnes Notes.' You see what I mean? It would be disastrous!

BTW, I have placed orders for both!

ha ha, why must we do this to ourselves!!

Dan Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/108824#Comment_108824

my impression is that most students/ministers here in the Netherlands have never heard of either Acc....nce or Logos/SESB

I just sent a tweet to all 16,000 or so Logos followers on Twitter to drive some more sales The Journal of Biblical Literature (26 Vols.) in hopes that Hendrik will give us some good tips on how to spread the word about Logos in the Netherlands. [:D]

http://twitter.com/Logos/status/21778056145

Just a few more orders needed, and The Journal of Biblical Literature (26 Vols.) gets underway! http://bit.ly/cswjPV

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163645#Comment_163645

my impression is that most students/ministers here in the Netherlands have never heard of either Acc....nce or Logos/SESB

I just sent a tweet to all 16,000 or so Logos followers on Twitter to drive some more sales The Journal of Biblical Literature (26 Vols.) in hopes that Hendrik will give us some good tips on how to spread the word about Logos in the Netherlands.

http://twitter.com/Logos/status/21778056145

Just a few more orders needed, and The Journal of Biblical Literature (26 Vols.) gets underway! http://bit.ly/cswjPV

[Y]

Just saw it come through via twitter Dan

Mathew Voth

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163652#Comment_163652

I am very excited about this resource...can't wait for it to go through!!!!!!!!!!

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163718#Comment_163718

I've been keeping an eye on the pre-pub list and am beginning to see some positive response to the tweet it seems!

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163645#Comment_163645

I just sent a tweet to all 16,000 or so Logos followers on Twitter to drive some more sales The Journal of Biblical Literature (26 Vols.) in hopes that Hendrik will give us some good tips on how to spread the word about Logos in the Netherlands.

Dan u da man! Can you throw a tow rope from JBL onto Barnes Notes as it rises to new heights?!?

Carmen Gauvin-O'Donnell

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, Paul... but how does people not signing up for a pre-pub have anything to do with the quality of the Logos product (which wins hands down for sheer power of search capability). After all, Logos can lead the horses to water, but it can't make then drink...

Isn't that sort of mixing apples and oranges?

Just my .02 cents worth! [:)]

Praiser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163847#Comment_163847

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, Paul... but how does people not signing up for a pre-pub have anything to do with the quality of the Logos product (which wins hands down for sheer power of search capability). After all, Logos can lead the horses to water, but it can't make then drink...

Isn't that sort of mixing apples and oranges?

Just my .02 cents worth!

EXACTLY!!!

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163847#Comment_163847

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, Paul... but how does people not signing up for a pre-pub have anything to do with the quality of the Logos product (which wins hands down for sheer power of search capability). After all, Logos can lead the horses to water, but it can't make then drink...

Isn't that sort of mixing apples and oranges?

Just my .02 cents worth!

Hmm, my post must have been misread. I was merely stating the fact that JBL is moving up on the pre-pub list since the tweet was sent out or that the tweet is working. I'm all for this thing making it into production!

...I'm not sure how else the post could have been taken

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163847#Comment_163847

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, Paul... but how does people not signing up for a pre-pub have anything to do with the quality of the Logos product (which wins hands down for sheer power of search capability).

I don't think Paul meant it that way. At least it did not sound like a "quality" complaint to me.

I see you were replying to the original poster Paul Knopf, not the more recent poster Paul. We failed to check who you were replying to. For everybody's enlightenment: You can see which person a poster is replying to by clicking on the link word "replied" between the current poster's name and date stamp in the top left of the current post panel. It helps to keep things sorted out if there are three "Amy"s, two "John"s, and four "David"s all posting in the same thread.

After all, Logos can lead the horses to water, but it can't make then drink...

My pastor and late friend Orville Evans used to quote the saying like this:

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink But you can put salt in his oats!"

(I really miss that old Kansas preacher.)

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163867#Comment_163867

For everybody's enlightenment: You can see which person a poster is replying to by clicking on the link word "replied" between the current poster's name and date stamp in the top left of the current post panel. It helps to keep things sorted out if there are three "Amy"s, two "John"s, and four "David"s all posting in the same thread.

Great tip Matthew.

Hapax Legomena

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163956#Comment_163956

I just put my order in. Let's get this one over the top!

Paul Knopf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/163847#Comment_163847

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, Paul... but how does people not signing up for a pre-pub have anything to do with the quality of the Logos product (which wins hands down for sheer power of search capability). After all, Logos can lead the horses to water, but it can't make then drink...

Isn't that sort of mixing apples and oranges?

Just my .02 cents worth!

Logos Bible Software is great! No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It's search capabilities and even book offerings (reverse interlinears or HDNT) help Logos stand out against the myriad of other bible software.

But what happens when another program has search capabilities that are slightly slower than Logos, but includes resources like JBL? Can Logos still be called "the best?" I don't think it's apples and oranges because no matter how quick or specific a search can be, if there is only a limited number or limited quality of resources, it's value will suffer.

I love Logos! I chose logos circa 2002 based on the fact that logos had more resources than the competitors. Others, particularly one mac offering, seems to have caught up with Logos in offering quality resources. They will be offering JBL in addition to the many resources that Logos has. My gripe is that Logos is/was the leader in quantity of and quality resources. If Logos is not publishing resources like JBL while others are including them, in my mind, Logos' value suffers, hence my question "is Logos still the best?"

Didn't mean to sound defensive, just want JBL to cross into production.

Paul Knopf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/164255#Comment_164255

just checked the status bar on the prepub page...it's even closer, but not there yet.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/164256#Comment_164256

just checked the status bar on the prepub page...it's even closer, but not there yet.

It's now under development [Y]

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/164344#Comment_164344

It's now under development