A bit of Negative about Logos

A bit of a negative. I like Logos and I understand that Logos needs to make money and sells everything in "Packages" and puts some things in the "higher cost packages" to get people to buy them. I came from WS and no matter how many books I owned... I was arbitrarily stuck in "Basic" for whatever reason. I did choose to upgrade to Starter mainly because of the 50% discount given to WS owners.

So, here I am in Starter package... and poorer than most folks on here and never could afford higher priced packages... so here I am with Sermon Builder and not Sermon Manager... In fact there are many such things in Logos. While I understand making money.... I find the pricing outrageous. I remember when Bill Gates came out with Windows 3.0. He could have priced it at $400 or more. He owned the market back then. Instead he priced it at $49. He said he'd get more money by getting more people on windows (great marketing ploy because it worked). And he did. I think this would be a good lesson for Logos to consider doing. People like me, who can't afford thousands of dollars to upgrade, might consider upgrading for a cheaper and fairer price. And I would think there would be a lot of people in my category. But then, if Logos is all about money and doesn't have a heart and not trying to help people get into God's Word... well that appearance does not set well with anyone. Just my 2 cents.... but I'm like Paul.... my friends may go to hell, but at least I've told them about Jesus Christ. Hope I don't get banned for writing this.

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Kevin A

There is always going to be something just out of our price range we want, what is important is how we deal with it.

Paul didn't have Sermon Manager either, but he did have everything God decided he needed.

The Flanary's

I came from WS and initially suffered from "sticker shock" as well, not to mention a resistance to change.
However, Word search will continue to function until Operating Systems update past its current capabilities, even after that there will probably be some techo-workarounds on the net. Once those stop working then WS will be officially dead and we would have had nothing, but Faithlife Logos took us on free of charge and is fully unlocking our libraries. The base engine for Logos is free so we will always have access to our books. That is a win for us. I can recall software in the past, especially in games, that go out of business and you're left with nothing, thats why you agree to a EULA on installation.

I understand budgets well, but, if you never spend another penny you will still have your library and the features you were given.

Now, there are 2 options that may be useful to you
1. Faithlife Connect- Has 3 packages that vary in library and features

2. Payment Plans- One option I used with Logos that I never used with Wordearch is payment plans, and they are reasonable.

But, if they're out of your budget, you still have everything you had before the transition, and more.

Bob Soule

Have you looked at just buying a feature upgrade?

The Flanary's

Just a quick add: I don't know if you can look up old comments, but I assure you my early comments weren't the nicest even though I tried to be nice.

Two things changed my outlook. The wonderful community here that is always available to help and learning the power of what I had been given. (For me that began with the Quickstart guides and Morris Proctor's free webinar series)

Ken McGuire

Unfortunately bills have to be paid. And we are free to not pay Faithlife's bills if we choose not to. But to create the datasets they need to do the "magic", it takes detailed work. And Faithlife has decided that they will support all their customers via a toll free number for life. And that takes more money.

For me, I find that joining Faithlife connect and "renting" these resources makes more financial sense than "buying" the resources, and so I joined "Logos Now" years ago, which has now merged into Faithlife connect. I don't see my actual plan listed, but you can call sales to see what they can do for you.

David Thomas

if Logos is all about money and doesn't have a heart

There is a difference between "all about" and "strategically profitable". I have a stack of discs from software that did not remain profitable. Logos has many different levels of resources and features. I don't resent those who are able to purchase more than I am able. I don't want to "shame" Logos into giving away what THEY HAVE PAID to produce. If they move into "negative profits" I would be forced to add my DVDs of Logos resources to the stack of unsupported and defunct programs. As Bob has written, there are many free alternatives (with lesser features) if you find

I find the pricing outrageous

Feel free to use one of those alternatives, but please don't accuse Faith life of being "all about the money". Some of us find value in investing in a sustainable company.

Peter Ryan

Xnman, I would agree with those who are suggesting Connect. The value is really high there if buying the more expensive packages is not an option.

You get absolutely all the features with the Essentials level and two free Mobile Ed courses per year (6 months access per course)

Plus once you have the Connect subscription the starter libraries are very good value for money - don't be put off by the name! $35 I think and 20% off that presently for Connect subscribers.

DMB

Hope I don't get banned for writing this.

You have to really troll-ify to get banned. Usually, after the Logosians have had their supper.

Most of what you're observing is true; assigning motives (money, no heart), then no. But I wouldn't get excited at the packages ... they seem to try to get you just enough hooked to pull the buy-trigger. But at a certain price-point (hefty), they ARE bargains. The key is to get enough resources, for the dynamic price to come down.

Getting resources cheaper in Logos largely involves patience ... waiting for this and that sale ... a publisher blowout, and the specialty packages (not so much bloat). I don't think I've ever bought an upgrade package. I have just what I want (5,000 books over about 15 years). And works great.

SineNomine

$35 I think and 20% off that presently for Connect subscribers.

The extra 5% discount is only for Connect (and Verbum Now) subscribers who subscribed before Logos/Verbum 9 was released.

Simon’s Brother

He could have priced it at $400 or more. He owned the market back then. Instead he priced it at $49. He said he'd get more money by getting more people on windows (great marketing ploy because it worked).

It was a model that worked for his business but FL has to pay royalties to book publishers - they are not going to accept Logos selling a packge of their books for $49.

But then, if Logos is all about money and doesn't have a heart and not trying to help people get into God's Word... well that appearance does not set well with anyone.

FL is not all about money but it does enable the company to have be there for us all next week, next month, next year and into following decades of our life (depending upon the milage we have already done).

Hope I don't get banned for writing this.

While I will defend FL on this point, there is much I have said about their approach to other things and I have been open and honest and said much more than you have and I'm still here posting. FL are not a greedy company, there are simply trying to ensure they are looking after their employees and are here for the long term.

I hope we see more posts from you xnman.

Peter Ryan

The extra 5% discount is only for Connect (and Verbum Now) subscribers who subscribed before Logos/Verbum 9 was released.

You’re absolutely right - thanks for that correction [Y]

Kolen Cheung

A bit of a negative. I like Logos and I understand that Logos needs to make money and sells everything in "Packages" and puts some things in the "higher cost packages" to get people to buy them. I came from WS and no matter how many books I owned... I was arbitrarily stuck in "Basic" for whatever reason. I did choose to upgrade to Starter mainly because of the 50% discount given to WS owners.

So, here I am in Starter package... and poorer than most folks on here and never could afford higher priced packages... so here I am with Sermon Builder and not Sermon Manager... In fact there are many such things in Logos. While I understand making money.... I find the pricing outrageous. I remember when Bill Gates came out with Windows 3.0. He could have priced it at $400 or more. He owned the market back then. Instead he priced it at $49. He said he'd get more money by getting more people on windows (great marketing ploy because it worked). And he did. I think this would be a good lesson for Logos to consider doing. People like me, who can't afford thousands of dollars to upgrade, might consider upgrading for a cheaper and fairer price. And I would think there would be a lot of people in my category. But then, if Logos is all about money and doesn't have a heart and not trying to help people get into God's Word... well that appearance does not set well with anyone. Just my 2 cents.... but I'm like Paul.... my friends may go to hell, but at least I've told them about Jesus Christ. Hope I don't get banned for writing this.

I understand the frustration for people new to Logos and not understand their pricing strategies. I think over time you'll make more peace with it.

I just want to point out something minimal to frame the picture correctly.

In Logos, your "OS", "Windows", is the Logos engine. It actually is free. (It is better than the free Windows 10 because the manufacturer has paid and transferred that cost to you.) They didn't advertise it but after a few months people can obtain the Logos 9 engine for free.

Now, here's the tricky part in Logos: some features might require extensive "tagging", sold in the form of a "dataset". Making an analogy of physical book sale, this is no different from selling you a printed concordance. You may say, "all those bible words are already in my bible, your concordance is just a feature that reshuffle things, why are you charging me for content I own?" That might sound ridiculous, but essentially is what happening to datasets. It is a labour intensive, creative (as in you created something of value) process, that cannot be done without $$ and obviously they need to make it profitable to stay in business (or not deliver that feature at all if it would have been free.)

So, a feature in Logos is more like a software running in Windows. Logos is your "OS", but on top of it you might want to expand its functionality and add "Word", "Excel", etc. that is produced by the same company but they charge you extra if you need that.

So in this perspective, if you find the pricing outrageous (which is not a surprise from someone coming from WORDSearch), then just don't buy it. It means the extra convenient gained does not worth your money. Speaking in the economical sense, the potential time saved via this feature does not worth that much.

And in a certain sense it is true that you don't need that. Without Sermon Manager you thrive all these years. Why bother you can't get it now it is available but not affordable? As in many new toys in the market, you really don't need it. In some cases, owning it is a trade off between time and money. In many more cases, it is just a waste of time and money.

xnman

I hope I didn't give the wrong message. I do like Logos. In fact I had written to WS and asked for many of the functions that Logos has.

Already, Logos is my "goto" Bible program and tool. It's just that the pricing in Logos was a bit of "sticker shock".

Thanks to all for your kind remarks.

Kolen Cheung

Already, Logos is my "goto" Bible program and tool. It's just that the pricing in Logos was a bit of "sticker shock

Probably more people feel the same than the reply here may suggests. I understand rationally why, but I still feel like that, especially after buying Logos 8 (I have a few Logos 8 packages and its full feature set already), the full feature set for 9 alone still cost me ~$192 (even with academic pricing.)

May be Logos is trying to make us feel poor so that we can "enter the kingdom"

MWW

It's just that the pricing in Logos was a bit of "sticker shock".

I remember thinking the same thing when I first started buying Logos library packages years ago. But I found that after purchasing a number of library packages over the years, the price of upgrading becomes incredibly cheap. For this Logos upgrade I paid less that $1 per book in average, and some of the resources I received were higher dollar items - like the full Carta package. If you learn the art of purchasing items at the right time in the right packages the return on investment is very good.
I have been subscribed to Faithlife Connect since it first was offered so I don't pay extra for upgrades, which I find is a great approach for me. Generally I don't like software subscriptions, but in the tools that I use every day, I find that value returned is worth the price paid.

Ronald Quick

There is definitely the potential to spend a lot of money getting the resources you want. As others have already stated, building a library can take some time. However, you can get 3 free books every month (Logos, Verbum and faithlife ebooks). In addition, there are usually several add ons that are heavily discounted. Logos also offers a number of sales throughout the year.

I would recommend visiting the forums regularly as that is how I usually find about them.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

While I understand making money.... I find the pricing outrageous.

Thread => Logos Is Too Expensive started on 28 Jul 2012, which had recent replies in 2020 (includes profit margin insights along with "cost" of free support, which includes Faithlife fixing typographical resource issues at no cost to user). Another thread => Why So Expensive?

Thankful for a personal book Bible helping me appreciate effort & value of resource tagging by Faithlife => American Standard Version 1901 - Personal Bible without Chapter and Verse #'s Thankful for a later Logos release having ability to hide chapter & verse numbering in most Bibles.

Thankful for amazing Bible Study capabilities available for $ 0.00 (my demonstration account order total) along with a purchased library. Actually been somewhat surprised by amount of demonstration account usage (primarily Bible reading and searching).

Keep Smiling [:)]

Daniel Eichelberger, Providence Baptist Church

Hi,

I understand your pain. Logos packages and books are expensive. It would be nice if Logos gave away their packages for much less like you say Gates did with his software. However, here's where that analogy breaks down. What typically costs so much with Logos is not the software. In fact, Logos gives that away, at least a basic version. What's expensive with Logos is the books. And Logos can't give the books away for free because they don't get the books for free. They pay for each and every license that they sell. Had Microsoft Windows came with a hundreds of newly released books and older copyrighted books, then it would have cost much more than $49. I hope that makes sense.

Mike Binks

Hi,

I take it, Daniel, that you didn't notice that the post before yours was a couple of years old? I think that the conversation may have moved on since then.

Gregory Lawhorn

But then, if Logos is all about money and doesn't have a heart and not trying to help people get into God's Word... well that appearance does not set well with anyone. Just my 2 cents....

Just my 2 cents, but I don't understand why people (not just the OP) have the idea that if something is "Christian" it should be free, as though those involved in producing it should donate their time, or are just greedy if they ask more than someone wants to pay.

There are reasons that so many Bible programs have gone the way of the dodo while Logos remains. One of those reasons is that Logos has a reasonable – yes, reasonable – pricing structure. They are able to pay for licensing resources AND pay employees AND provide the company's owner a fair return on his investment.

Logos IS too expensive for some, unfortunately. But pastoral ministry is not a cheap profession. Before moving to Logos I had a print library of about 400 books, and close to $25,000 invested. I think I paid close to $1,000 for Kittel alone. I spent close to $15,000 by the time I graduated from Talbot School of Theology in 1993. I remember paying close to $100 for a Greek New Testament. Theological books are expensive (I assume that all academic materials are expensive but I have no experience with other disciplines).

And you know something? Not one of those books was cross-referenced with the others, or tagged, or could be found in a search that took seconds. It took me hours to do a fraction of the research I can do now in minutes. Forget trying to find a lemma in commentary or compare ten translations.

Edit: I now have many thousands in invested in Logos, but I have over 10,000 resources, and magnitudes-easier use of them.

Thanks for listening.

MWW

Logos has a reasonable – yes, reasonable – pricing structure.

Truthfully, value per dollar… Logos is a bargain!

xnman

I understand your pain. Logos packages and books are expensive. It would be nice if Logos gave away their packages for much less like you say Gates did with his software. However, here's where that analogy breaks down. What typically costs so much with Logos is not the software. In fact, Logos gives that away, at least a basic version. What's expensive with Logos is the books. And Logos can't give the books away for free because they don't get the books for free. They pay for each and every license that they sell. Had Microsoft Windows came with a hundreds of newly released books and older copyrighted books, then it would have cost much more than $49. I hope that makes sense.

I came from QuickVerse then a couple of others, then WordSearch... now Logos. Without a doubt, I built my library on the cheap by coming through the previous softwares... and I am thankful for that.

But now, I have been converted - lol !!! I believe I have the "best" Bible Software Program available to man. I have had opportunity to play with Accordance for 2 weeks (because of a friend)... and while there may be a couple of things I like with Accordance (maybe Search - lol) I have become a die hard Logos fan. Let me explain why...

1. Hands down, the support team is by far and above anything I have worked with. They are responsive... and respond... they have responded to me and I have seen them do so with others. I have had my problems in trying to make the transition from WordSearch to Logos... but the support team has been there. When I came to Logos... I had a huge problem in that, for me, things didn't work because I was not given the right "package" or tools and it limited me. I posted such in the forusm... and ... I personally got a phone call... and an email follow up... we discussed the issue and they promptly straightened it out. I give the Logos support team resource a 9 out of 10.

2. The help on the forum is nothing more than great! Besides the support from the Logos team... the people on the forum have always been willing and eager to help with questions etc. I don't know how many questions and problems I've asked about on the forums and always, I mean always, get a helpful reply or suggestion. Read through the forums and I am sure you will see what I am saying is true and will come to the same conclusion that the people on the forums (other users of Logos) are a hidden asset to helping you with Logos. Go to the forum home page.. type in a search in the search bar... and you'll generally find where someone has answered about how to take care of it. I give that resource a 9 out of 10 also.

3. About the pricing of resources in Logos... I do think some things are high.. but I am a penny pincher to the highest degree. I live on the idea... it's not how much you get... it's how much you keep... and I fight to keep it.... so when I look at resources on Logos I grinch. But I have also come to realize that with QuickVerse, WordSearch and others.... they are not around now, and Logos is; which says that Logos must of had a better marketing strategy than they did. And I do get to use Logos... because of that.

Also, I have learned that Logos puts almost all their resources on sale at some time or the other... and I wait for the sales of the things I want. And I am slowly building a bigger library and other resources on Logos because of that. The sales I have experienced, I feel, are good sales... and make the resource to appear like a real bargain to me... So my suggestion is... wait for the sales... and they will come.... On pricing and sales... I give Logos a 6 out of 10.

4. The program itself (I think) is the most powerfullest program on the market today. There is a learning curve and I'd still classify me as still learning...but when I open Logos up and open one of my "layouts" ... I'm ready to study with all the resources for that study right in front of me. My suggestion is to spend time going through the many free videos about Logos... experiment, try, play with Logos to learn it better... experience comes from doing.... so get into Logos and do... and I am sure you will come to realize Logos is the most powerfullest program around. I give the Logos program 9 out of 10.

3. Add to that the Mobile App and you have tools that you can take with you wherever you go. The Mobile App is one of the things that sold me on Logos... I love having my resources with me when I am teaching a class, preaching... having a Bible Study.... and it's all right there on my phone or my tablet! And you don't have to pay extra for it!! I give the Mobile App another 9 out of 10.

4. Why only 9 out of 10? Because as great a program and resource as Logos is... it was built by man... and as such ... there is always room for improvement.... somewhere in these forums I have a list of things I would like to see done in Logos 10...as I am sure most of the people on these forums have their list also. While Logos is great.... and I am thankful for it.... I am really looking forward to how they will improve it with Logos 10.

In my humble opinion.... [8-|]

skypeace

There have almost always been free and open source Bible programs. I have never used one I liked as my favorite translations have for the most part always been proprietary. Having served as a Bible software consultant I have seen many products, some most excellent ones, come and go. Kudos to Logos for the WS transition.

I have learned with Logos, to establish a good foundation with a base package and search constantly for books I desire that are included in other packages. It is always like a scavenger hunt, kind of makes it fun. Just today I found a Bronze Legacy 5 package with a book I wanted and saved stupid mad money on it and 34 other books. Package cost me $10 and change.

I budget between $12 to $35 a month for Biblical resources now that I am retired. When I was active the budget was much higher like in the car payment neighborhood. I believe in His Providence thus we get what our hand calls for, "That the man of God might be equipped..."

Mike Childs

I want to add my thoughts about this, and I am only speaking for myself. Electronic books are expensive, but so are paper books. I have found having my theological books in Logos format to be far more useful to me than having them in paper, and generally they are more economical. You also never have to worry about them wearing out or getting lost.

Over the 48 years I have been a pastor, I have never been rich. My first church paid me the enormous salary of $325 per month. My wife and I raised four children, and God always provided. My churches were generous when they could afford to be.

About 30 years ago, I first bought Logos Bible Software. I had bought a CD-ROM Bible program called CDWORD, and it went out of business. But Logos bought the rights to the CDWORD resources and offered CDWORD customers an upgrade deal. I am so thankful that they did.

I didn't have a lot of money to spend, but over the next 30 years I consistently made most of my library investments in Logos Books. I generally used payment plans to do this. Over that time, I built a Logos library that has blessed my preaching / teaching ministry. I would never have built a library with some best language tools and commentaries available anywhere without Logos Bible Software. It was always the library that drew me to Logos.

I do not consider Logos overpriced. I consider it a bargain. Build your library with patience and persistence. Logos gives us free books every month. And some of them are high quality books. They also have excellent and frequent sales. Take advantage of those.

Also, I highly recommend learning to make personal books. There are thousands of wonderful Christian resources available for free on the internet, which are not under copyright. You can make these books part of your Logos library for free.

(Opps. I didn't notice the original post was a few years old either. Must be my old age.)

Robert I Clark

iTS A RIP OFF

Robert I Clark

iTS A RIP OFF

MJ. Smith

Welcome to the forums but please don't use all caps. It is more difficult to read. If you were unsatisfied with the produce, did you try to return it. I've not heard of any difficulties with returns. If you didn't try to return it, where did you turn to try to learn to use it? The forums are usually quite response and patient in walking you through the learning process. You also might wish to post in the forum of software that is currently maintained i.e. the active desktop app where you will get current advice. As it is, you have responded to a thread a year-and-a-half old with no details as to what kind of help you might need.

Nick Cole

MJ does Logos have a tool, or program for phrasing the Greek NT alongside an Englisdh Bible?

Nick Cole

MJ does Logos have a tool, or program for phrasing the Greek NT alongside an Englisdh Bible?