How do I get a commentary to follow my position in the text more closely
Hi there
I have a situation where I link a commentary to a bible using a link set. As I move through the text using page up/page down, or by scrolling the text and commentary follow one another. However with larger commentary sets the verse I am looking at in the bible text is often not visible in the commentary.
For instance in the screenshot below I am wanting to see the commentary on verse 21 but this is not visible in the commentary.
Whatever I do I cannot get the commentary to follow my position in the text, I've tried clicking on the verse number, or selecting a word but the linked commentary doesn't move. Am I missing something obvious?
thanks
Paul
Comments
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Paul, what happens if you scroll your Bible text so that verse 21 is physically/positionally at the top of the text display area? If positioning it there doesn't work, try scrolling the text so that the 2nd line of verse 21 is at the top of the page. If that doesn't work, try setting the visual filter for your Bible text to "one verse per line" and making verse 21 the active verse.
Part of the problem may be that the last part of your commentary section is tagged as verses 18-24 and the commentary won't scroll until the top verse of your Bible text is verse 25.
If still no success, try changing the column setting for your Bible text to "None". That should change your Bible text format to a single column. I noticed your Bible text is in a two column format. I have had trouble in the past with linked commentaries when the Bible text is set for more than a single column.
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Greetings Paul,
I wonder if the accuracy is affected by the use of multi-column panels?
I find scrolling with such panels virtually uncontrollable.
If however, I type 'John 14:22' into the reference box it the two move together.
In single (or none) column displays the references seem to work as expected*
*I don't think I have the exact commentary you are using so the problem may be within it.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Rick Ausdahl said:
Paul, what happens if you scroll your Bible text so that verse 21 is physically/positionally at the top of the text display area? If positioning it there doesn't work, try scrolling the text so that the 2nd line of verse 21 is at the top of the page. If that doesn't work, try setting the visual filter for your Bible text to "one verse per line" and making verse 21 the active verse.
Part of the problem may be that the last part of your commentary section is tagged as verses 18-24 and the commentary won't scroll until the top verse of your Bible text is verse 25.
Typing 14:21 into the search box in the bible moves the commentary to 14:21 (it has a specific section on this).
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If still no success, try changing the column setting for your Bible text to "None". That should change your Bible text format to a single column. I noticed your Bible text is in a two column format. I have had trouble in the past with linked commentaries when the Bible text is set for more than a single column.
This doesn't seem to make any difference, it appears that the only way in which a bible can drive the location of a linked commentary is when it is at the top of the screen or by typing in a reference. It doesn't seem possible to advance to a specific verse which is displayed on the screen - unless I'm missing something?
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Thanks for the reply Mike. Just to make sure I understand what you mean, if you wanted to view the comment on verse 28 which is visible in the bible but not visible in the commentary you would either have to 1) scroll to v28 which is a bit hit and miss as you say OR 2) type 14:28 in the search box. Is that right?Mike Binks said:Greetings Paul,
I wonder if the accuracy is affected by the use of multi-column panels?
I find scrolling with such panels virtually uncontrollable.
If however, I type 'John 14:22' into the reference box it the two move together.
In single (or none) column displays the references seem to work as expected*
*I don't think I have the exact commentary you are using so the problem may be within it.
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OK I've done a bit more analysis on this and can report the following:
In both single column and multi column modes when you click on a verse the reference box changes to the reference clicked. However this has no effect on the linked commentary which stubbornly remains on the first verse on the page. This is close to working if the link between the bible and commentary were correctly honoured.
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Paul Meathrel said:
if you wanted to view the comment on verse 28 which is visible in the bible but not visible in the commentary you would either have to 1) scroll to v28 which is a bit hit and miss as you say OR 2) type 14:28 in the search box. Is that right?
That is what works for me.
I find that scrolling multi-column panels is too inaccurate so always view resources with columns set to 'None'.
With that setting, I find that both the when moving the bible, the commentary stays in sync and when moving the commentary the bible keeps in sync.
SR2 on Mac
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Thanks Mike, I am using Windows. What happens when you click on a verse does the reference section change and does the commentary follow this reference?
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Paul Meathrel said:
Thanks Mike, I am using Windows. What happens when you click on a verse does the reference section change and does the commentary follow this reference?
I think I understand now [8-)]
The syncing doesn't work like that.
As one scrolls the bible, the commentary lines up with the top verse of the section you are using.
This works well with resources like study bibles etc where the sections are finely divided.
It is less helpful in publications such as Lexham Context Commentary New Testament where the syncing can seem arbitrary until one gets used to it.
There is no movement if you just click on a verse.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:
I think I understand now
The syncing doesn't work like that.
As one scrolls the bible, the commentary lines up with the top verse of the section you are using.
This works well with resources like study bibles etc where the sections are finely divided.
It is less helpful in publications such as Lexham Context Commentary New Testament where the syncing can seem arbitrary until one gets used to it.
There is no movement if you just click on a verse.
I guess what this seems to be boiling down to is that there is no way of reliably selecting a reference from a bible in order to access the linked commentary section (if available) without actually typing the biblical into the reference box. Is that right?
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Paul Meathrel said:
I guess what this seems to be boiling down to is that there is no way of reliably selecting a reference from a bible in order to access the linked commentary section (if available) without actually typing the biblical into the reference box. Is that right?
There are three (ish) methods that come to mind...
1. Type the reference into the box.
2. Select the position from the Table of Contents
3 Move the verse you want to look at to the top of the display
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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What is at issue as has already been mentioned is that not every individual verse is indexed in every commentary. Commentaries that do verse by verse analysis of text will have every verse analysed. Commentaries that analyse a group of verses will only be index by that grouping. To get the behaviour you are expecting would require someone to read through those commentaries and make arbitrary decisions about where to insert the index point for every individual verse and sometimes in discourse on a group of verses this will it be clear. I‘m fine with the behaviour of the software as it is currently. If an author has adopted a commentary style of writing on groups of verses I’d much rather read those comments contextually as a group rather than have someone arbitrarily decided where to break up their discourse based on verse markers which were arbitrarily assigned in the first place.
I do understand what you are asking and can see someone who wants to study one verse at a time and maybe I’d preparing a lesson, homily or sermon to be delivered in that way. But personally don‘t want large discourses in commentaries being broken up on arbitary markers.
You are not doing anything wrong or missing anything other than that the resources are not tagged in a manner that would drive the software to behave in this manner. And the commentaries were not written with them intended to be read in that way, hence they are not tagged that way.
Paul Meathrel said:Mike Binks said:I think I understand now
The syncing doesn't work like that.
As one scrolls the bible, the commentary lines up with the top verse of the section you are using.
This works well with resources like study bibles etc where the sections are finely divided.
It is less helpful in publications such as Lexham Context Commentary New Testament where the syncing can seem arbitrary until one gets used to it.
There is no movement if you just click on a verse.
I guess what this seems to be boiling down to is that there is no way of reliably selecting a reference from a bible in order to access the linked commentary section (if available) without actually typing the biblical into the reference box. Is that right?
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DIsciple II said:
I do understand what you are asking and can see someone who wants to study one verse at a time and maybe I’d preparing a lesson, homily or sermon to be delivered in that way. But personally don‘t want large discourses in commentaries being broken up on arbitary markers.
I agree with what you are saying, completely, as I said in my post there 'no way of reliably selecting a reference from a bible in order to access the linked commentary section (if available)'. In the examples I've given there is a specific section available and already marked but no way of reliably selecting it as outlined above. If the verse is not specifically marked in the resource I have no issue with it simply selecting the broader section containing the verse.
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Does anyone else have any suggestions or keyboard shortcuts to simplify what ought to be a straightforward process?
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Paul Meathrel said:
what ought to be a straightforward process?
Unfortunately, the variation in approaches by the commentaries means that it cannot be a straightforward process - verses are arbitrary late additions not thought units of the text.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I think using the commentary section in the passage guide or explorer works best for keeping commentaries and the Bible in sync.
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MJ. Smith said:
Unfortunately, the variation in approaches by the commentaries means that it cannot be a straightforward process - verses are arbitrary late additions not thought units of the text.
Thanks for the reply MJ. I think the issue lies with the navigation process rather than with a specific resource and the way in which verses are handled in the commentary. For instance if I select the predefined bible and commentary (which has both in a link set) I can easily click a verse number in the commentary and the bible moves in line. However the reverse is not true, unless either you manually select the verse using the contents or type into the reference box. My problem would be solved by being able to select a verse from the visible bible text and have any linked resources move to that location. (I completely understand that different commentaries divide up the text different, some with text for every verse and others with text for a pericope / chapter / etc).
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John Fidel said:
I think using the commentary section in the passage guide or explorer works best for keeping commentaries and the Bible in sync.
Thanks John, that is where I normally start, however once working in a given piece of text with a more substantial commentary I find myself wanting the text in question on the screen but having an easy way to navigate to a specific section of the resource (whether that be verse specific or a chunk of commentary pertaining to more than one verse).0 -
Paul Meathrel said:
I think the issue lies with the navigation process rather than with a specific resource and the way in which verses are handled in the commentary.
I think you're badly under-stating the problem.
Out of curiousity, I checked the Logos version 20 years ago (Libby) ... it's also as you describe. But ignoring the title of the present software, the software has always had trouble making the Bible as centric (vs just one more line in your library). For years, it was possible to have the linkage as many as 8 verses off. The tool panels (with a verse change) 'might' drive Bibles, and then might not. Even today, on the mobiles, in the layout-view, resources flash blank, if the verses aren't resource-contained. Whoo-hoo!
So, don't expect too much change. Myself, I use the multiview (which wouldn't resolve your issue).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Wow
Denise said:I think you're badly under-stating the problem.
Out of curiousity, I checked the Logos version 20 years ago (Libby) ... it's also as you describe. But ignoring the title of the present software, the software has always had trouble making the Bible as centric (vs just one more line in your library). For years, it was possible to have the linkage as many as 8 verses off. The tool panels (with a verse change) 'might' drive Bibles, and then might not. Even today, on the mobiles, in the layout-view, resources flash blank, if the verses aren't resource-contained. Whoo-hoo!
So, don't expect too much change. Myself, I use the multiview (which wouldn't resolve your issue).
Wow, I can't believe that, what is probably the leading bible software in the world, cannot operate in a text-centric way like this. Are you sure we aren't missing something?
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Paul Meathrel said:
Are you sure we aren't missing something?
Last week, we replaced our midi keyboard; a reviewer warned the weighted key-edges would hurt our fingers, and so indeed, Immediately, we wonder how a keyboard designer would make that mistake ... and it's how our brains work. The brains just can't believe it. We concluded CAD instructions.
But I suspect Logos is similar. The code has to generalize across thousands of books, and specialized code for 'a few' is expensive (coding, buggy, execution, multi-platform). I bought Bibleworks late, but it's an interesting design on Bible-centric ... you just aren't going to use it and go down any rabbit-trails. The Bible, it is, all crispy and snappy.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Paul Meathrel said:
My problem would be solved by being able to select a verse from the visible bible text and have any linked resources move to that location.
That could be a nice setting to be able to enable.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:Paul Meathrel said:
My problem would be solved by being able to select a verse from the visible bible text and have any linked resources move to that location.
That could be a nice setting to be able to enable.
It is clearly possible, since with the Information panel and a bible open you can click on the bible text (without it moving) and the info pane adjusts. Similarly with the Cited by pane open, I can click on a verse in the bible text without it moving, and Cited by adjusts. Also a lexicon, when linked, will follow the word selected in the biblical text again without it moving! So clearly it is possible...
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I've added this to Feedbear if anyone feels minded to support it: https://logos.feedbear.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/linked-commentaries-should-follow-bible-text
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Sorry Paul
I still don't really understand why the following method is not suitable for what you want to accomplish...
'Move the linked bible verse you want to study in the linked commentary to the top of the panel.'
I want to study John 1:6 the commentary jumps there...
As I scroll my bible up the commentary remains at this section until the first verse of the next section is reached at which point the commentary moves to keep the place.
and so on...
If I scroll the commentary then the bible moves to keep place.
It might not be ideal but I find it a reasonable way of working.
Have I misunderstood the question?
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:
Have I misunderstood the question?
Yes I think so. Imagine that you want to Study John 1:1-6, you put this on the screen so you can easily view the whole passage in one go. This is important because as you are studying individual verses you want to be able to view the whole too.
Now as you move through commentary, reading on 1:1 you reach the boundary between comments on 1:1 and 1:2 (the same applies regardless of where a given commentary's verse boundaries are drawn). At this point the bible will jump to 1:2 so John 1:1 is no longer visible:
This is the problem in essence, it seems impossible to retain the pericope that you are interested in visible on the screen whilst also having linkage with the commentary. The frustrating part is that cited by, information and linked lexicons all work such that you can click on a verse and they pick this up without a problem - why not commentaries?
Hope this helps
Paul0 -
Paul, I too would like to see what you're asking for. Another option regarding the positioning of linked bibles and commentaries that might work, is having a "one way" link between them, where the commentary follows the Bible but the Bible doesn't follow the commentary.Paul Meathrel said:Mike Binks said:Have I misunderstood the question?
Yes I think so. Imagine that you want to Study John 1:1-6, you put this on the screen so you can easily view the whole passage in one go. This is important because as you are studying individual verses you want to be able to view the whole too.
Now as you move through commentary, reading on 1:1 you reach the boundary between comments on 1:1 and 1:2 (the same applies regardless of where a given commentary's verse boundaries are drawn). At this point the bible will jump to 1:2 so John 1:1 is no longer visible:
This is the problem in essence, it seems impossible to retain the pericope that you are interested in visible on the screen whilst also having linkage with the commentary. The frustrating part is that cited by, information and linked lexicons all work such that you can click on a verse and they pick this up without a problem - why not commentaries?
Hope this helps
PaulOne thing I've done in the past as an attempted work-around to your problem, is to have two Bible tabs (each in it's own pane/panel) open to the desired pericope but only have one of them linked to the commentary. That way if I scroll the Bible in the linked Bible tab, the commentary will follow--but if I scroll the commentary to another verse, the entire pericope is still visible in the unlinked Bible tab.
I know--it's sloppy... it's kludgy... it wastes screen real estate... and it won't work if the pericope is so large that it won't fit twice on your screen. In that case you could have both Bible tabs in the same pane/panel and keep the unlinked Bible as the active tab as you scroll through the commentary until you're ready to make the linked Bible the active tab again.
Not a solution. Just a thought as a possible mitigation strategy for while things are as they are now.
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Rick Ausdahl said:
One thing I've done in the past as an attempted work-around to your problem, is to have two Bible tabs (each in it's own pane/panel) open to the desired pericope but only have one of them linked to the commentary. That way if I scroll the Bible in the linked Bible tab, the commentary will follow--but if I scroll the commentary to another verse, the entire pericope is still visible in the unlinked Bible tab.
Yes I had thought of this, but as you say its awkward. A product the quality of Logos hsould have an easy way of centring the text. Thanks for the reply, if you want to support this suggestion, why not vote on the feedback site...
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Done!Paul Meathrel said:Thanks for the reply, if you want to support this suggestion, why not vote on the feedback site...
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Hi Paul
Given the constraints in which we are working this might provide a reasonable solution until (and if) the program is altered to meet your requirements.
I would naturally use something a bit bigger and with floating panels on second screens/workspaces.
If you have limited space with which to work you might try something like this.
You will see that I have a very small, almost one verse, panel at the top left which I can use to control the commentary and an unlinked copy of the percope in question in the panel below that. This way the complete text is always in view and the actual verse I am studying is outlined in the top panel. Should I scroll the commentary panel such that the verse that I want to study is lost then I would re-enter it in the search bar from the clipboard.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:
Given the constraints in which we are working this might provide a reasonable solution until (and if) the program is altered to meet your requirements.
thanks again for the reply Mike, I'd hope that this was more than just my requirement! Keeping the text central ought to be what the software strives to do!
Mike Binks said:You will see that I have a very small, almost one verse, panel at the top left which I can use to control the commentary and an unlinked copy of the percope in question in the panel below that. This way the complete text is always in view and the actual verse I am studying is outlined in the top panel. Should I scroll the commentary panel such that the verse that I want to study is lost then I would re-enter it in the search bar from the clipboard.
Yes I can see that this might work, although its a bit of a kludge. For reference I have 3 screens and when I am studying I find that I do run out of space fairly quickly.
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