How Logos works - Computer Question
I am evaluating a potential computer upgrade, and have been in discussions with a friend who is most knowledgeable re: computers. Following are his comments:
"In early computers, you inserted a floppy disc, ran a program and waited for 30-300 seconds while it loaded the program from a floppy disk into RAM memory. The program size as well as the working files were limited by RAM size. Once hard drives became affordable, software still loaded the same way with a single exception: RBASE, DBASE and Oracle were written in such a way that the program was loaded into RAM, but the data was accessed from the hard drive making the database size limited only by the size of your hard drive. Finally, some software beyond databases (word processors, GIS, Inventorying software) followed suit allowing the data to be stored on the hard drive making document sizes, and other files to be as big as possible. Then the OS became a limitation: hard drives were quite large, but the single database file that you could write to could only be a certain size as limited by the OS. Finally, with SSDs, the software began to buffer and swap information on ram with that on the hard drive to give you performance, and capacity. Today we see the emergence of AI, where the computer looks at the way you work, and then optimizes the information to load to boost performance.
WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING is an old program that takes a long time to load because it puts everything into RAM, and then is blink of an eye fast once loaded. If this is the case, the program, not the computer is always going to be slow to load and have RAM memory limitations. The only time I see this is in old software that was developed under older systems and has not been upgraded/re-written. Thus I suggested thinking about a MAC or an Ipad to test my theory as the program would have to have been re-written for those platforms and the base code would be newer regardless of versioning.
Another thing that happens with software, and I verified this looking at one of the complaints, is that when the software starts is goes to the internet to verify if there are any updates and may automatically apply those updates. The process of contacting, logging on, checking/verifying your information can be slow if they have slow servers plus this is a privacy concern. Is there an option you can select to stop this? Often it is just a matter of opting out of automatic updates, and only updating when you tell it to. Other software wont start unless it can login and verify you have a valid license with the remote server and you cant stop this. And still other programs do this in background. This is very likely where your slow down is".
Is his assessment correct - is the program loading to RAM and RAM access limited (which would include motherboard pathways) -. legacy not AI design? I have an SSD, but older (e.g. 500MB/sec transfer - new ones several thousand). My I7 is fourth generation with 4 cores. For this program, would it make any sense to upgrade - e.g. new SSD and 10th gen. with 6 or 8 cores? Does the graphic card come into play at all for this program in terms of speed/response - e.g. in terms of playing courseware videos? Finally, is his assumption re: Mac programming correct - is Mac version noticeably faster - is it the same or feature limited?
Greatly appreciate anyone who can answer my questions! Thank-you!!
Comments
-
Sorry, you lost me. I do understand that you are wanting to get a new computer.
You will want a fast SSD. It should be more sufficient in size than what you need for Logos. You will want 8GB Ram at a minimum. Having a fast processor is good.
You were asking about Macs being faster... For Logos purposes, a similarly equipped Mac will run about the same as a similarly equipped PC. Your decision to buy a Mac over a PC should not be made based upon your use of Logos. You should buy a Mac because they are better computers. If you aren't sold on that, then save your money.
You should also be aware: Apple just released some brand new computers this week. They are eventually moving their entire line of computers from Intel chips to their own "apple silicon" chips. You would be best advised to wait to make a purchase if you are looking at Mac. At a minimum, you should see what FL has to say about compatibility.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
Hi Roger
Have you having performance problems with Logos that are behind your question?
If so, please provide some details about what you are seeing
Graham
0 -
The first part of your friend's comments are historical, but:
Roger Kadeg's friend said:Finally, with SSDs, the software began to buffer and swap information on ram with that on the hard drive to give you performance, and capacity. Today we see the emergence of AI, where the computer looks at the way you work, and then optimizes the information to load to boost performance.
This is misleading. Programs and data are stored on SSD (Solid State Drives) or Hard Drives (HD) and loaded into memory (RAM) to be executed by the Operating System (OS). SSD's are now affordable at the same high capacities as HD's, and are much faster. But SSD's are not as fast as RAM.
AI (Artificial Intelligence) is "the theory and development of computer systems able to perform tasks that normally require human intelligence", so that doesn't cover the predictive and algorithmic behaviour of the software OS and/or the hardware CPU/GPU (main processor and graphics processor) when executing your app.
Roger Kadeg's friend said:WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING is an old program that takes a long time to load because it puts everything into RAM, and then is blink of an eye fast once loaded. If this is the case, the program, not the computer is always going to be slow to load and have RAM memory limitations. The only time I see this is in old software that was developed under older systems and has not been upgraded/re-written. Thus I suggested thinking about a MAC or an Ipad to test my theory as the program would have to have been re-written for those platforms and the base code would be newer regardless of versioning.
I would disregard this. It is inaccurate if he was answering to your description of Logos. The choice of Mac/Windows is personal.
The following remarks regarding authentication with the server and checking for updates happens with Logos on both OS. It can't be changed. Some features of Logos are executed on the server e.g. the Cloud search and Fuzzy search (from Basic Search), and the Morph Query (Docs menu). You may not think any of this is slow IF you have a good internet connection. And you can manage internet features by not using them or electing not to automatically download updates (in Program Settings).
Roger Kadeg said:- is the program loading to RAM and RAM access limited (which would include motherboard pathways) -. legacy not AI design?
Yes, all programs load into RAM. The rest depends on the hardware and OS, both of which you can select (more so on Windows). Windows 'legacy' restrictions related to the management of peripherals like HD and GPUs, and to the amount of RAM it would use for a program and its data. This is gone or much alleviated with 64 bit CPU's and larger memory capacities.
Roger Kadeg said:I have an SSD, but older (e.g. 500MB/sec transfer - new ones several thousand). My I7 is fourth generation with 4 cores. For this program, would it make any sense to upgrade - e.g. new SSD and 10th gen. with 6 or 8 cores? Does the graphic card come into play at all for this program in terms of speed/response - e.g. in terms of playing courseware videos?
500 MB/sec isn't the fastest but is more than adequate for Logos. A faster CPU and faster SSD would be great for indexing, but get a CPU with 8 threads (4 cores with hyperthreading); typically an i7 or even an i5. If laptop, 11th gen is available, but 10th would be cheaper; meaning you could afford the same performance. A separate graphics card may not be a choice with 11th gen. But it isn't needed with 10th gen (I have an NVIDIA GPU but have never selected it for Logos).
I run 8th gen i5 laptop (8 threads) with SSD and 8 GB memory. It is not slow! Get 16 GB for running more apps at once
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Thanks Graham. No more than "normal" issues. That is, it loads slowly and very slow indexing. Resources also take time to come up. I have it installed on several computers - the one described (old HP ZBook) is my best laptop, used as a desktop. After a refresh (i.e. boot the program, allow it to sync up, then close, then reboot), it takes about 15 seconds to load (sometimes longer). On an older Dell XPS (2nd gen I7 at 3.8ghz, 2TB hard drive almost empty, 16GB memory) it took 5 min 50 sec to boot - on refresh it took 2 min 10 sec. For comparison to a good indexing program boot, note what my friend wrote (using a newer computer):
"I have used a document indexing program for many years. Just last year, I indexed 7.9 terrabytes of documents, photographs, CAD drawings, emails and databases. It took 43 hours of constant processing for the program to index the entire collection, and developed an indexed database file of the documents that was over 500 mbytes. Once this was created, loading the program was less than 2 seconds, and finding words, phrases as limited by file type or date or author or other things was instantaneous and that included a preview of the text in the document and document info all displayed simultaneously. " (My current Logos data file runs about 80GB, about 9,500 resources comprising 13,000 files and 95 folders.)
Additionally, booting/playing the Mobile Ed videos from the courseware textbook takes time, and on the XPS I have to pause the video to allow it to further load to avoid choppy video. Still see some video issues on the ZBook, although not as pronounced. On the Zbook, Factbook also takes some time to populate - but love the expanded feature in version 9.
All in all, it appears we are dealing with legacy programming in order to maintain backward compatibility and accessibility with the most minimum of computing power. As my friend noted, I am not sure a computer upgrade will show any significant improvement or be worth it for this program - it may for other applications I am using. With a newer computer, I could get more RAM, and opt for faster RAM as well as faster SSD, more cores and motherboard pathways/upgrade. (I use Logos for library and personal growth - I am not a pastor, do not prepare sermons, occasionally teach, and have not delved deeply into the program's many features).
I now note that some are seeing Logos problems with the new 11th gen Intel CPU, which also gives me pause about upgrading (although was thinking of a 9th or 10 gen CPU). Thank-you for your interest!
0 -
Thank-you Dave. Most helpful!! Saw your post after I responded to Graham's comment. Am running Windows 64bit. Would appreciate additional thoughts on choppy video - more RAM (i.e. more than 16GB)? Faster more expensive RAM? (Was considering a computer with a T2000 video card). My internet is typically at 450-500+MPS, with uploads of 15-18MPS - although at the moment download appears to be down (another problem to research). Perhaps my impression of legacy program was based on misunderstanding or misinformation. Thanks again!
0 -
Roger Kadeg said:
Am running Windows 64bit.
Yes, you need 64-bit Windows on a 64-bit computer to eliminate the 'legacy' issues I described.
Roger Kadeg said:Would appreciate additional thoughts on choppy video - more RAM (i.e. more than 16GB)? Faster more expensive RAM?
I run Logos Couseware Media video with no issues (see my specs above) and my internet download speed is not as fast as yours. I did get choppy video after I switched my wi-fi off then on, but it recovered and I could see the 'streaming' indicator bar moving ahead quite rapidly.
Your computer Wi-Fi will not be as fast as today's laptops and your Wi-Fi Modem may not be much better (assuming you still use wi-fi). But its performance may be hampered by distance, too many walls and/or too many neighbours with wi-fi!! If you can eliminate interference and distance/walls, wait until you get the new laptop. If the issue still occurs, the modem may need to be upgraded as well!
If Ethernet connected, the problem could well be the modem. If you don't use Ethernet, try it with a borrowed cable!
EDIT: full motion (scenery) video was not completely smooth, sometimes jerky. But my TV streams movies without a problem, It could be that Logos Media videos are not streamed as effectively.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
0 -
Most programs look at the internet at startup to see if any updates exist. Depending on computer speed, internet connection speed, etc., this can take a little time, but usually just a couple of seconds, and it's done while other operations are taking place anyway. By default, Logos will automatically download updates, but you can change this in the settings. In settings where I have no internet, Logos doesn't start up significantly faster.Roger Kadeg said:Another thing that happens with software, and I verified this looking at one of the complaints, is that when the software starts is goes to the internet to verify if there are any updates and may automatically apply those updates. The process of contacting, logging on, checking/verifying your information can be slow if they have slow servers plus this is a privacy concern. Is there an option you can select to stop this? Often it is just a matter of opting out of automatic updates, and only updating when you tell it to. Other software wont start unless it can login and verify you have a valid license with the remote server and you cant stop this. And still other programs do this in background. This is very likely where your slow down is".
It seems to me that you're overthinking this issue. The older the hardware you use, the more your experience using Logos will be affected. It's generally known around the forums that the biggest speed improvement with Logos is an SSD drive, since Logos is so data driven. After that processor speed and RAM affect the user experience, but only to a limit (that is, 16GB RAM is better the 8GB, but having 32GB probably wouldn't change anything).
Comparing Mac and Windows specs to try and gauge speed isn't going to get you anywhere, because there are so many other variables involved. The thing to do is to actually compare what a given machine can do; the Geekbench website provides a comparison of overall system speeds.
Finally, Apple has released a new processor, the M1, which seems to be surprisingly quick. I have a MacBook Air ordered and set to be delivered next week. I'll be loading Logos and Proclaim, and reporting on how they function. I'm going to try to upload some videos to YouTube showing a comparison between my current MacBook Pro 16" (fairly maxed out) and the MacBook Air.
0 -
Roger Kadeg said:
On an older Dell XPS (2nd gen I7 at 3.8ghz, 2TB hard drive almost empty, 16GB memory) it took 5 min 50 sec to boot - on refresh it took 2 min 10 sec.
Upgrading hard drive to SSD would noticeably improve Logos (and Windows) responsiveness. Hard drive is like driving on a single lane country road (one way at a time) while SSD is like driving on a multi-lane highway (lots of traffic flowing in both directions at the same time).
Roger Kadeg said:on the XPS I have to pause the video to allow it to further load to avoid choppy video.
SSD upgrade should allow smooth video playing: SSD speed of 500 MB/s is noticeably faster than ~80 MB/s on a hard drive
Roger Kadeg said:I am evaluating a potential computer upgrade
Logos Help Center (LHC) most popular articles include:
Roger Kadeg said:Another thing that happens with software, and I verified this looking at one of the complaints, is that when the software starts is goes to the internet to verify if there are any updates and may automatically apply those updates. ... Is there an option you can select to stop this?
The Internet section of Program Settings (in Logos & Verbum) has several user selectable options:
Apple has new Mac M1 information (Apple Silicon) => https://www.apple.com/mac/m1/ that includes CPU description "Our high‑performance core is the world’s fastest CPU core when it comes to low‑power silicon." with footnote:
- Testing conducted by Apple in October 2020 using preproduction 13‑inch MacBook Pro systems with Apple M1 chip and 16GB of RAM measuring peak single-thread performance of workloads taken from select industry-standard benchmarks, commercial applications, and open source applications. Comparison made against the highest-performing CPUs for notebooks commercially available at the time of testing. Performance tests are conducted using specific computer systems and reflect the approximate performance of MacBook Pro.
Geekbench shows new Mac M1 single core is 36% faster than 10th Generation i9 => https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks while the 8 core M1 has 19% slower multi-core benchmark than a 10 core 10th Generation i9 in an iMac. New M1 Macbook Pro is the fastest MacBook Pro model for both single-core (36% faster) and multi-core (7% faster) benchmarks. New M1 Macbook Air (MBA) single-core 1702 is a little bit slower than MacBook Pro 1719 (not humanly noticeably) while also being faster than all previous MacBook Pro models. Compared to the previous fastest MBA, the new Mac M1 MBA single-core is 50% faster and multi-core is 234% faster. Geekbench processor benchmarks => https://browser.geekbench.com/processor-benchmarks shows fastest 11th Generation i7 single-core benchmark of 1423, which is a little bit fastest than 1410 for 10th Generation i9 (both are 36% slower than new Mac M1 single-core). Noticed fastest AMD Ryzen 9 5950x single-core benchmark of 1636 being 5% slower than new Mac M1 while the 16 core AMD Ryzen 9 5950x multi-core 15877 is 215% faster than 7377 for new 8 core Mac M1 in the MacBook Pro (hints of multi-core performance increases coming in future Mac M# chips with more cores so Apple Silicon should be viable inside desktop PRO models within two years)
Keep Smiling [:)]
0 -
Gregory Lawhorn said:
After that processor speed and RAM affect the user experience, but only to a limit (that is, 16GB RAM is better the 8GB, but having 32GB probably wouldn't change anything).
I have a desktop with 32 GB RAM and a laptop with 8 GB RAM and both seem to have the same speed. Both have 512 GB SSD, but now I would by 1 or 2 TB SSD.
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
0 -
Roger Kadeg said:
Is there an option you can select to stop this? Often it is just a matter of opting out of automatic updates, and only updating when you tell it to.
I don't think anyone answered this part of your question set.
You can customize Logos to do nothing, to download updates but not install, or to download and install. You can pick the times of day when the download/install will occur. So I suspect you can find something to your liking.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
0 -
Since I've been dealing with how Logos works--or doesn't--on some aging machines and a more recent machine, I would like to note the following.
1. Because Logos relies to some extent on your internet access, one of the best things you can do is either use a wired connection or at least an AC wireless rig. I switched from N to AC router about a year ago once I had an AC tablet and it made my whole life much easier.
2. There's a huge memory gobble when Logos loads. That's one of the reasons why an SSD works better and why it loads a whole lot faster the second time around.
3. I load Logos very fast by simply turning off the automatic download, load last layout, and no longer use the notification bar.
4. A smaller library loads much faster. Some of my dinosaurs work much better with a curated library than my full one.
5. Logos recommends 12 GB or more RAM, an SSD and an i7 or equivalent or better processor. When I was buying my last computer, I decided to buy up. I can only tell you that having more is decidedly better since the computer has no bottlenecks. Everything works and I can run stuff in the background while doing something else. I thought I would have to get a custom desktop to do that, but a well-equipped laptop is more than enough and Logos doesn't present any obstacles at all. Logos has greatly improved enough that no longer even think about it being all that demanding. The one difference however is the size of your library. A big library will use everything to load, index and manage.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
0 -
Others have given you good answers; I will give you short ones.
Roger Kadeg said:My I7 is fourth generation with 4 cores. For this program, would it make any sense to upgrade - e.g. new SSD and 10th gen. with 6 or 8 cores?
Yes. A new SSD and a 10th gen i5 or i7 will make Logos run much faster for you. 8 GB RAM minimum, 12-16 better.
Never ever purpose-buy a laptop for use with Logos if it doesn't have an SSD.
Roger Kadeg said:Does the graphic card come into play at all for this program in terms of speed/response - e.g. in terms of playing courseware videos?
Not really.
Roger Kadeg said:Finally, is his assumption re: Mac programming correct - is Mac version noticeably faster
No.
Roger Kadeg said:is it the same or feature limited?
Essentially identical, although some bugs only affect one version or the other.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
0 -
Just a quick word of thanks to all who have responded so far. The information has been most helpful, and greatly appreciated!!
My primary computers are hardwired to the router, where I typically get between 475-550 MPS download and 17-18 MPS upload speeds, so the internet should not be a significant constraint. (Due to location, the older Dell relies on Wi-Fi, and is much slower - do not plan to upgrade that one).
It is obvious the program is moving significant amounts of data between RAM and the SSD, so a newer computer with latest SSD should show improvement. Ditto for faster RAM (and at least 16GB), and multi core hyperthreading newer CPU. The motherboard (data pathways) corresponding to the CPU/RAM would also come into play.
The real question is how much do I gain, and is the price point worth it. A few seconds faster loading time may not be, minutes (hours?) faster indexing and smooth courseware video while other applications are open might be. My other concern is to keep current - there is a period where I fell behind with my hardware. I do not need/could not justify a $5,000+ state of the art tricked-out unit (or perhaps even a more modest $2,000 machine). But, I use my computer daily. I am trying to match my needs/uses to the computer. To quote my friend - much like buying a vehicle - do I need a Corvette, a Volkswagen, or a RAM truck, and with which options? There are many ways to configure the base computer.
it appears one sweet-spot cost/benefit option (considering additional programs besides Logos) might be with some of the refurbished units with 9750H or 9850 (or 10750/10850) CPU, T2000 video card, and later SSDs (or self installed additional SSD), including manufacturer's warranty as sold by some of the reliable resellers on E-Bay. (I am historically wedded to PC/Windows).
Trying to gauge which is best based on CPU timing specs seems somewhat futile. As noted, there are so many variables. One would need to run the same Logos program/resources set under various search/test scenarios on each computer under consideration to get a clear picture. However, these specs would come more into play if considering overall performance on a number of programs/applications.
Again - thank-you for your comments!!
0
