Logos and the MacBook Air M1, compared to a maxed out 2019 MacBook Pro 16"
Comments
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Mike Prewitt said:Dan Lioy, Ph.D. said:
For those debating between the 13” MBP w/ 8 gigs vs. 16 gigs of RAM, the following video comparison is informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP1_4wek4nI
More RAM doesn't make your machine faster. But it helps you run more apps and switch back and forth with less paging to the SSD. So, the 16-MB model would do better at running multiple apps, which the guy in the video doesn't test.
There’s no question about what you’re saying. That’s just old facts. I haven’t seen the video yet. The other side of the coin is if the RAM is over utilized, it will slow the system down.
Wilson Hines
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Mike Prewitt said:
More RAM doesn't make your machine faster. But it helps you run more apps and switch back and forth with less paging to the SSD. So, the 16-MB model would do better at running multiple apps, which the guy in the video doesn't test.
Too true. Even at 8GB the Air was the match of the Pro. I think 16GB would provide modest gains, but not major ones.
"The Guy In The Video"
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Testing is so often linear but people using them are so often working in a non-linear fashion that defies traditional tests.
The M1 appears to operate like its siblings on an iPad. I never notice that I have a half dozen apps open unless I look. On a traditional computer, that often becomes a big headache but not on the iPad.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Jon Varner said:
Do both machines have the same amount of ram and same sized SSD?
If you mean the Air and Pro in the original post, no: the Air has 8GB and the Pro has 32GB. Was that your question, or did I miss it?
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mab said:
Testing is so often linear but people using them are so often working in a non-linear fashion that defies traditional tests.
That's true, and the reason I didn't just do a benchmark test. Even my testing was limited, clearly. My experience with the Air over the past several days, though, convinced me to pick up a 13" Pro and trade in my 16" Pro.
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It'll be a few weeks before my 13" Pro gets here, but I'll repeat the same tests I did in the video, and compare times. I probably won't upload a video, unless it's dramatically different, but I'll get the results listed.
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Gregory Lawhorn said:Mike Prewitt said:
More RAM doesn't make your machine faster. But it helps you run more apps and switch back and forth with less paging to the SSD. So, the 16-MB model would do better at running multiple apps, which the guy in the video doesn't test.
"The Guy In The Video"
I was referring to the YouTube video posted by Dan, and not yours.
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Ah - I didn’t understand, thanksMike Prewitt said:I was referring to the YouTube video posted by Dan, and not yours.
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So you own a MacBook Air and a MacBook Pro? If so, which do you recommend for Logos?
I’m thinking of getting the MacBook Air (M1, 2020) based on this thread, but noticed it doesn’t have a graphics card. Logos recommends a graphics card. How will no graphics card on the MacBook Air effect speed?0 -
Gregory Lawhorn said:Gregory Lawhorn said:
I'm starting to give serious thought to Ebay'ing the Pro and picking up a 13" Pro with the M1.
I’m a quick thinker. I’ve ordered a 13” MacBook Pro with 16GB RAM and 1 TB storage. $10 a month with the 16” as a trade-in.
So you own a MacBook Air and a MacBook Pro? If so, which do you recommend for Logos? I’m thinking of getting the MacBook Air (M1, 2020) based on this thread, but noticed it doesn’t have a graphics card. Logos recommends a graphics card. How will no graphics card on the MacBook Air effect speed?
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Mike Prewitt said:Dan Lioy, Ph.D. said:
For those debating between the 13” MBP w/ 8 gigs vs. 16 gigs of RAM, the following video comparison is informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP1_4wek4nI
I was just able to watch the video. This is remarkable, just like he said it several times. It is remarkable. The temp was remarkable as well. The thing for me is buying for the future. While 8 is probably more than I'll use now, these developers (especially Logos) are going to reach for the sky!
Wilson Hines
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John Morgan said:Gregory Lawhorn said:Gregory Lawhorn said:
I'm starting to give serious thought to Ebay'ing the Pro and picking up a 13" Pro with the M1.
I’m a quick thinker. I’ve ordered a 13” MacBook Pro with 16GB RAM and 1 TB storage. $10 a month with the 16” as a trade-in.
So you own a MacBook Air and a MacBook Pro? If so, which do you recommend for Logos? I’m thinking of getting the MacBook Air (M1, 2020) based on this thread, but noticed it doesn’t have a graphics card. Logos recommends a graphics card. How will no graphics card on the MacBook Air effect speed?
Just to help here, his 16" MBP is an i9, not a M1. The i9 was about $4,000~ and his Air has very similar performance for almost 1/4 the cost.
Wilson Hines
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Wilson Hines said:
Just to help here, his 16" MBP is an i9, not a M1. The i9 was about $4,000~ and his Air has very similar performance for almost 1/4 the cost.
[Y]
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John Morgan said:Gregory Lawhorn said:Gregory Lawhorn said:
I'm starting to give serious thought to Ebay'ing the Pro and picking up a 13" Pro with the M1.
I’m a quick thinker. I’ve ordered a 13” MacBook Pro with 16GB RAM and 1 TB storage. $10 a month with the 16” as a trade-in.
Logos recommends a graphics card. How will no graphics card on the MacBook Air effect speed?
John, be sure and watch Gregory's video. You do not need a discrete video card, it's built right in the M1! It works wonderfully.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p8wtfzRzfs&feature=youtu.be
Wilson Hines
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Get a load of this. Education only, 128 GB M1 Air for $799:
https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/20/128gb-m1-macbook-air/
I know exactly what my daughter will be getting for her January 9th, 18 birthday to get her started in college.
Wilson Hines
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Thanks Wilson Hines
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Pastor Gregory,
I deeply appreciate your timely video which has convinced me to purchase MBA. However, I have a couple of questions. First, if I buy MBA with 1 TB SSD, must I buy 8 GB unified memory OR 16 GB unified memory? The difference is $ 200. In other words, how much RAM do I need with 1 TB SSD? Knowing that I mostly use MS Word and Logos all day long (no video editing and no games). Second, for the first time, I will be buying an external monitor to use with my new computer (and for Logos), what do you recommend? Your help is greatly appreciated.
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Waad Haddad said:
Pastor Gregory,
I deeply appreciate your timely video which has convinced me to purchase MBA. However, I have a couple of questions. First, if I buy MBA with 1 TB SSD, must I buy 8 GB unified memory OR 16 GB unified memory? The difference is $ 200. In other words, how much RAM do I need with 1 TB SSD? Knowing that I mostly use MS Word and Logos all day long (no video editing and no games). Second, for the first time, I will be buying an external monitor to use with my new computer (and for Logos), what do you recommend? Your help is greatly appreciated.
Thank you for the kind words, Waad. The amount of RAM doesn't have anything to do with the amount of storage. Based on your use, 8GB RAM would be fine.
I have two ViewSonic external monitors, a 32-inch and a 43-inch. The 43 is REALLY big on a desk. If you can get a piece of cardboard that is 28 inches wide and 16 inches tall, you can see how big the 32 inch would be on your desk. The 43 inch would be 37 inches wide and 21 inches tall.
The M1 laptops only have two USB-C ports, so I recommend using a hub if you can, so that you can use more than two peripherals.
If you are going to use an external monitor, I recommend using an external keyboard and mouse/trackpad as well. You'll have the laptop plugged in to power and the monitor (or a hub) and it isn't going to be easily moved on your desktop.
I hope all this is helpful to you.
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Wilson Hines said:
Get a load of this. Education only, 128 GB M1 Air for $799:
https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/20/128gb-m1-macbook-air/
I know exactly what my daughter will be getting for her January 9th, 18 birthday to get her started in college.
[Y]
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Gregory Lawhorn said:Waad Haddad said:
Pastor Gregory,
I deeply appreciate your timely video which has convinced me to purchase MBA. However, I have a couple of questions. First, if I buy MBA with 1 TB SSD, must I buy 8 GB unified memory OR 16 GB unified memory? The difference is $ 200. In other words, how much RAM do I need with 1 TB SSD? Knowing that I mostly use MS Word and Logos all day long (no video editing and no games). Second, for the first time, I will be buying an external monitor to use with my new computer (and for Logos), what do you recommend? Your help is greatly appreciated.
Thank you for the kind words, Waad. The amount of RAM doesn't have anything to do with the amount of storage. Based on your use, 8GB RAM would be fine.
I have two ViewSonic external monitors, a 32-inch and a 43-inch. The 43 is REALLY big on a desk. If you can get a piece of cardboard that is 28 inches wide and 16 inches tall, you can see how big the 32 inch would be on your desk. The 43 inch would be 37 inches wide and 21 inches tall.
The M1 laptops only have two USB-C ports, so I recommend using a hub if you can, so that you can use more than two peripherals.
If you are going to use an external monitor, I recommend using an external keyboard and mouse/trackpad as well. You'll have the laptop plugged in to power and the monitor (or a hub) and it isn't going to be easily moved on your desktop.
I hope all this is helpful to you.
So, you recommend an external keyboard and mouse/trackpad because its easier to use an external monitor with them? Is that what you are saying? If so, I'm curious how the mouse/trackpad make using an external monitor more efficient. Can you explain?
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Gregory How about Logos indexing? have you tested the time for a full index using the MacBook Pro 16 vs the new MacBook Air M1?
I am looking at getting the MacBook Pro M1 with 16GB and the 1TB SSD, but with the Covid issue I will not be returning to the USA until some time next year.
L4 BS, L5 RB & Gold, L6 S & R Platinum, L7 Platinum, L8 Baptist Platinum, L9 Baptist Platinum, L10 Baptist Silver
2021 MacBook Pro M1 Pro 14" 16GB 512GB SSD, running MacOS Monterey iPad Mini 6, iPhone 11.0 -
John Morgan said:
So, you recommend an external keyboard and mouse/trackpad because its easier to use an external monitor with them? Is that what you are saying? If so, I'm curious how the mouse/trackpad make using an external monitor more efficient. Can you explain?
A picture is worth 993 words (inflation). You have to forgive the mess of my desk. This morning as I'm starting sermon prep for next Sunday, this is what I see." I find it much, much easier to use a full size keyboard and trackpad when I am connected to my external monitor. I prefer not using a palm rest for a keyboard, and I like having the trackpad or trackball (you might see the Kensington Expert Mouse on the desk – I go back and forth) to my right instead of right in front of me.
Incidentally, behind the MacBook Pro is a CalDigit T3 hub that connects everything up. There is just one USB-C cable plugged into my MacBook. The piano keyboard is a Yamaha MODX 8. There's another 32 inch monitor on the wall above that, which is off at the moment. And bats live behind the white door, so I never need to go in there.
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Another extremely positive review of the Mac Air M1:
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Lee said:
Gregory How about Logos indexing? have you tested the time for a full index using the MacBook Pro 16 vs the new MacBook Air M1?
I am looking at getting the MacBook Pro M1 with 16GB and the 1TB SSD, but with the Covid issue I will not be returning to the USA until some time next year.
Hi Lee. Indexing is a brutal operation. I didn't do an exact comparison, but the M1 took about 30 minutes longer than the Pro for the initial, full index. The Pro was about 2-1/2 hours, and the Air about 3 hours.
I just downloaded the November free book and compared indexing times. The MacBook Pro 16" was right at 5 minutes. The Air was about 7 minutes. Because the Air has no fan, it throttles the processor to keep heat under control. I have a MacBook Pro 13" M1 on order, which has a fan. I'll repeat these tests once it comes, and I expect that it will index more quickly because it has a fan, and can deal with heat more efficiently.
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Gregory Lawhorn said:Lee said:
Gregory How about Logos indexing? have you tested the time for a full index using the MacBook Pro 16 vs the new MacBook Air M1?
I am looking at getting the MacBook Pro M1 with 16GB and the 1TB SSD, but with the Covid issue I will not be returning to the USA until some time next year.
Hi Lee. Indexing is a brutal operation. I didn't do an exact comparison, but the M1 took about 30 minutes longer than the Pro for the initial, full index. The Pro was about 2-1/2 hours, and the Air about 3 hours.
I just downloaded the November free book and compared indexing times. The MacBook Pro 16" was right at 5 minutes. The Air was about 7 minutes. Because the Air has no fan, it throttles the processor to keep heat under control. I have a MacBook Pro 13" M1 on order, which has a fan. I'll repeat these tests once it comes, and I expect that it will index more quickly because it has a fan, and can deal with heat more efficiently.
how many resources do you have? I have over 9000 and I cannot wait to do the indexing on my new Pro. I’m sure it’ll be a lot faster than the Air because of the throttling
Wilson Hines
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Wilson Hines said:
how many resources do you have? I have over 9000 and I cannot wait to do the indexing on my new Pro. I’m sure it’ll be a lot faster than the Air because of the throttling
I'm sorry, I should have said; I have around 9,800 resources. I don't know if the number of resources affects the indexing of a single new resource, but obviously would impact the full index time.
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Gregory Lawhorn said:Wilson Hines said:
how many resources do you have? I have over 9000 and I cannot wait to do the indexing on my new Pro. I’m sure it’ll be a lot faster than the Air because of the throttling
I'm sorry, I should have said; I have around 9,800 resources. I don't know if the number of resources affects the indexing of a single new resource, but obviously would impact the full index time.
not the individual books.
Wilson Hines
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Gregory Lawhorn said:John Morgan said:
So, you recommend an external keyboard and mouse/trackpad because its easier to use an external monitor with them? Is that what you are saying? If so, I'm curious how the mouse/trackpad make using an external monitor more efficient. Can you explain?
A picture is worth 993 words (inflation). You have to forgive the mess of my desk. This morning as I'm starting sermon prep for next Sunday, this is what I see." I find it much, much easier to use a full size keyboard and trackpad when I am connected to my external monitor. I prefer not using a palm rest for a keyboard, and I like having the trackpad or trackball (you might see the Kensington Expert Mouse on the desk – I go back and forth) to my right instead of right in front of me.
Incidentally, behind the MacBook Pro is a CalDigit T3 hub that connects everything up. There is just one USB-C cable plugged into my MacBook. The piano keyboard is a Yamaha MODX 8. There's another 32 inch monitor on the wall above that, which is off at the moment. And bats live behind the white door, so I never need to go in there.
Thanks. That is very helpful.
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Gregory Lawhorn said:
Indexing is a brutal operation.
When I purchased L4 (my first real foray into Logos), I had a brand new Mac. The indexing took more than12 hours!
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
JT (alabama24) said:Gregory Lawhorn said:
Indexing is a brutal operation.
When I purchased L4 (my first real foray into Logos), I had a brand new Mac. The indexing took more than12 hours!
I’m honestly not trying to one up you, but when the whole Indexing thing started, I think I had an old AMD processor in a custom box that wasn’t very new at that time. maybe a gig of RAM or something. It took 18.5 hours and I may have had 1,500 books.
Wilson Hines
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Indexing is one area where the Mac traditionally ties up all one's RAM. My old Mac has 16GB of RAM which goes to near zero during indexing even with L9. I really wonder how well it goes on in the M1.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Wilson Hines said:
I’m honestly not trying to one up you
No worries! [:)] I don't know how long it took, 12 hours may have been a conservative underestimate! I do know that I started in early evening and it was still going when I left for work.
The biggest point is that indexing IS a "brutal operation," but in perspective, 3 hours for nearly 10,000 resources is nothing compared to 12+ hours for less than 2,000! [:O]
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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mab said:
Indexing is one area where the Mac traditionally ties up all one's RAM. My old Mac has 16GB of RAM which goes to near zero during indexing even with L9. I really wonder how well it goes on in the M1.
On my existing MBP (2014, i7, 8 GB RAM), if I buy a book or a dozen books or a dozen or more get updated, the indexing is so intense, near the last 20% or so, I can't even get Safari page refreshes LOL
Wilson Hines
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Mike Prewitt said:
I picked this up yesterday from Amazon, 20% off for Black Friday. More for the future than anything else.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08C9HZ5YT/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Wilson Hines
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Mike Prewitt said:
I neither have the room or the monitors but the one caveat I noticed is that you weren't necessarily getting 4K either. Pioneers are known for the arrows in their backs.[8-|]
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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mab said:
The M1 appears to operate like its siblings on an iPad. I never notice that I have a half dozen apps open unless I look. On a traditional computer, that often becomes a big headache but not on the iPad.
In this case the memory management behavior is a property of the OS, not the processor. While the emphasis has evolved over time, at a first order iPadOS (like iOS, etc) focuses on working well with smaller amounts of ram. So apps / parts of apps that are not currently running may have their memory footprint drastically reduced through a whole variety of means.
In contrast, MacOS will very much assume that apps desire to remain in memory, at least partially so. There are strategies to reduce memory requirements when necessary, but for the most part the goal is to use whatever memory is available in some useful way.
So I would propose two quick conclusions-
- memory (ram) requirements for an m1 Mac will more closely resemble an Intel Mac than an ipad
- buy as much memory as reasonably fits in your budget.
The exact mix of of ram vs ssd will depend on what you do, but it's worth keeping in mind that small, sturdy and fast portable ssd are relatively cheap and can be added at any time, while the ram simply cannot be expanded, ever.
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Maybe you can help me with something.
I use Proclaim and Logos, too and I agree they run on the Apple M1 chipset just fine.
But here is my problem, I also use Ecamm live to live stream and while it works on the intel based CPU to Send Proclaim to Ecamm Live, it does not with the M1 chipset.
First of all the NDI scan converter crashes every time. a No Go.
Second I bought the scan converter from Sienna, which was supposed to work. No Go.
Can't Proclaim build NDI into its software like Pro presenter does?
I am reluctant to switch to the M1 if this cannot be fixed, either by Newtek, or Faithlife proclaim.
Anyone out there have the same experience? Any solutions?
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Hello,
we ordered a M1 Mac Mini and launched proclaim with it. Everything seemed to work fine, we just have one issue which I wonder other M1 users have as well:
When displaying a bible passage within proclaim everything is butter smooth in the "edit" view. But as soon as I enter "preview" view or "on air" the bible passage stutters a lot. Slide transitions are all smooth, only the bible passage feature doesn't seem to work smoothly.
Do others also experience this? Any setting I need to adjust?
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Florian Schoffke said:
When displaying a bible passage within proclaim everything is butter smooth in the "edit" view. But as soon as I enter "preview" view or "on air" the bible passage stutters a lot. Slide transitions are all smooth, only the bible passage feature doesn't seem to work smoothly.
Do others also experience this? Any setting I need to adjust?
Hi Florian - I presume you're using "On-Screen Bible," and I see the same thing on my MacBook Air. I don't use On-Screen Bible, just the plain old Bible slides, so I never though to test it in my video. I apologize for that.
My guess is that in spite of the movie "play" button in the preview window, Proclaim isn't generating a movie file for the slide ahead of time, but animates it on the fly during the presentation. The small version in Edit mode is much, much smaller than the projected version. If you resize the preview window in Edit more (drag the vertical bar to the left to make the preview bigger) you'll see it stutter there, too.
The preview size on my MacBook Air is 565x317, which is 179,105 pixels. If Proclaim's On-Air size is 1080p HD, that would be 1920x1080, or 2,073,600 pixels, which is 11.5 times bigger. 1280x720 is 921,600 pixels, more than 5 times bigger. Proclaim is already hitting the GPU hard, and adding an HD on-the-fly animation is more than Rosetta 2 can handle.
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Hi Gregory,
thank you for your reply, we use the on screen bible. The one which contains the animations and such
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Florian Schoffke said:
Hi Gregory,
thank you for your reply, we use the on screen bible. The one which contains the animations and such
I edited my answer, and you had already answered, so I'm pasting it in again to make sure you see it.
Hi Florian - I presume you're using "On-Screen Bible," and I see the same thing on my MacBook Air. I don't use On-Screen Bible, just the plain old Bible slides, so I never though to test it in my video. I apologize for that.
My guess is that in spite of the movie "play" button in the preview window, Proclaim isn't generating a movie file for the slide ahead of time, but animates it on the fly during the presentation. The small version in Edit mode is much, much smaller than the projected version. If you resize the preview window in Edit more (drag the vertical bar to the left to make the preview bigger) you'll see it stutter there, too.
The preview size on my MacBook Air is 565x317, which is 179,105 pixels. If Proclaim's On-Air size is 1080p HD, that would be 1920x1080, or 2,073,600 pixels, which is 11.5 times bigger. 1280x720 is 921,600 pixels, more than 5 times bigger. Proclaim is already hitting the GPU hard, and adding an HD on-the-fly animation is more than Rosetta 2 can handle.
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Thank you for your answer!
So I also tested that with a 13" Macbook Pro from 2015. With an i5 and 8GB Ram, so nothing special. And that one delivered also a smooth experience on the projector.
So would you assume that a M1 optimized version would improve that? Have you heard of any plans to develop that?
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Florian Schoffke said:
Thank you for your answer!
So I also tested that with a 13" Macbook Pro from 2015. With an i5 and 8GB Ram, so nothing special. And that one delivered also a smooth experience on the projector.
So would you assume that a M1 optimized version would improve that? Have you heard of any plans to develop that?
I do think the M1, or "universal" app, will solve the problem. Final Cut Pro is native to the M1, and there is no stutter. It drives the GPU harder than Proclaim does; the fans on my 16" MBP run all the time in Final Cut, and never in Proclaim.
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Florian Schoffke said:
Have you heard of any plans to develop that?
Sorry, forgot the second question. No one knows Faithlife's timeframe, ever. The first official word on Logos 9 came the day it was released. Faithlife will obviously create M1 versions of Logos, Proclaim, etc., but they won't even promise that until it's at least at the beta stage, and maybe not then. I did my video test partly because Faithlife's official answer is that Logos is not designed for the M1 processor, and you're on your own if you install it on one. I'm not complaining; it's better to not promise, than to make a promise and then not deliver. And, the issues with the Intel 11 chip are proof that tech advances can and do break things.
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For your info I did some testing of Logos and other Bible apps on my MBP M1. All are linked here.
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/196433/1140597.aspx#1140597
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Gregory Lawhorn said:
Faithlife's official answer is that Logos is not designed for the M1 processor, and you're on your own if you install it on one.
You are not "on your own"; support is provided for customers running Logos on M1 hardware.
(Edit: This doesn't mean that the program works flawlessly or that all problems can be fixed by contacting Support; for example, there are known performance issues with CEF-based features. We plan to fix them in a future update, but until then there are no known workarounds.)
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Gregory Lawhorn said:
Faithlife's official answer is that Logos is not designed for the M1 processor, and you're on your own if you install it on one.
You are not "on your own"; support is provided for customers running Logos on M1 hardware.
I stand corrected - thanks for posting that.
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Just FYI:
A couple of weeks ago I mentioned ordering a MacBook Pro 13" and trading in my MacBook Pro 16". The trade-in would have almost covered the cost of the 13", but in the end I decided to hang on to my 16", primarily because our Sunday streaming needs require more than 2 USB-C ports (power, mic, camera). I would have taken a $2,000 loss on the trade-in for a computer I've had six months, and just couldn't justify it. When the larger M1 MacBook Pro is released, I'll certainly be looking to eBay my current machine, but for now I'm keeping things as they are.0
