So, I wonder how well Logos9 will run on a Mac Mini with the new Apple Silicon M1 chip?
https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/
Thanks
If it is running on Rosetta, I am sure it will work. Nothing about native so far as I have heard.
I wonder how well the Logos App will run on the Apple Silicon.
There must be a question as to whether is would be 'better' to move the desktop to native or develop the mobile app for the desktop?
Given the choice, I'd resort to using the web app on the desktop, rather than the mobile app.
I wouldn't mind if the desktop wasn't native to start, providing that resources didn't take longer to load, and smooth scrolling wasn't impacted.
Apple claims that Intel apps will run faster on M1 with Rosetta 2 than natively on Intel. I confess that I am sorely tempted to pick up a MacBook Air (which has always been grossly underpowered for my needs/desires).
OK, so I took the bait and order a MacBook Air. It's set to deliver in a couple of weeks. I'll get Logos and Proclaim installed, and report.
Yes!
[Y]
With trading in my old MacBook and using my education discount, I can get the new air for $12 a month for 12 months at 0% interest. I’m not sure how long I can refrain from clicking purchase
Apple claims that Intel apps will run faster on M1 with Rosetta 2 than natively on Intel.
I just watched the video last night. They did not say such. They said SOME intel apps run faster.
Anyone who is interested in a new Mac for Logos purposes would be well advised to wait for official pronouncements from FL.
The delivery date is November 17-18. I'll get Logos and Proclaim installed the same day, and report back.
Apple has a pretty good return policy in the first couple of weeks (check the details). Since delivery is out a couple of weeks anyway, if you ordered now you'd get your place in line, and be able to return it if it doesn't meet your needs.
Apple is currently under the Holiday Return Policy. Machines ordered in the Apple Online Store can be returned up to January 8, 2021. See more details here. That should leave plenty of time to test these out before having to rush to send it back if they do not meet expectations.
OK, so I took the bait and order a MacBook Air. It's set to deliver in a couple of weeks. I'll get Logos and Proclaim installed, and report. The delivery date is November 17-18. I'll get Logos and Proclaim installed the same day, and report back.
Someone has reported problems with 11 gen intel chip PC. Please also try several other programs in addition to Logos. We need to know if any problems are generic to M1 or Logos only. Thanks. [[And enjoy your new "toy"]]
OK, so I took the bait and order a MacBook Air. It's set to deliver in a couple of weeks. I'll get Logos and Proclaim installed, and report. The delivery date is November 17-18. I'll get Logos and Proclaim installed the same day, and report back. Someone has reported problems with 11 gen intel chip PC. Please also try several other programs in addition to Logos. We need to know if any problems are generic to M1 or Logos only. Thanks. [[And enjoy your new "toy"]]
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but the new Apple machines do not have Intel chips - they are custom made ARM chips produced by Apple.
Apple made some bold claims about performance... and Anandtech (a deep tech site) says "Apple’s claim of having the fastest CPU core in the world seems extremely plausible."
https://www.anandtech.com/show/16226/apple-silicon-m1-a14-deep-dive
You misunderstood. The new intel chip in PCs is an 11 gen intel not used in Apple machines. The new Apple M1 chip is not used in PCs.
Both new chips, one in Macs and one in PC, have both just been released. There is a report of the PC 11 gen might have a problem in a PC only.
I just am asking that any reports of problems with Logos on the new chips be reported by customers that have also checked out other non FL programs. That is: is the problem with Logos or is the problem with the new chips?
[Sorry that I did not better explain the first time]
I read the Intel 11th gen. post; I'm really interested to see how well Logos/Proclaim run on the M1.
Logos and Proclaim will be my priority, but I'll also check out Word and Excel, Scrivener, Photoshop, BBEdit, FileMaker Pro 18, Keyboard Maestro, OBS, Notability, OmniOutliner, and perhaps some others; those are my most commonly used apps.
I read the Intel 11th gen. post; I'm really interested to see how well Logos/Proclaim run on the M1. Logos and Proclaim will be my priority, but I'll also check out Word and Excel, Scrivener, Photoshop, BBEdit, FileMaker Pro 18, Keyboard Maestro, OBS, Notability, OmniOutliner, and perhaps some others; those are my most commonly used apps.
Sorry for putting you [and the others] though so much work but we need to know if it is the chip or the programs.
I would love to hear an official reply on this!Technically, unless it's changed, Logos is a C# app sitting on top of Mono on the Mac. Mono supports ARM (https://www.mono-project.com/docs/about-mono/supported-platforms/arm/) so it seems technically feasible to have a native version for the M1.The real question, is FL actually doing it?
I need Logos for my seminary studies - fortunately I have both a PC and an Intel mac in case it doesn't perform well on my probable future Mac mini But "Yes we're making an ARM version" would make the decision easier!
so it seems technically feasible to have a native version for the M1.
Question: Would that mean that FL would have to support two versions of FL programs on the Mac: one for Native M1 and one for older Macs??
so it seems technically feasible to have a native version for the M1. Question: Would that mean that FL would have to support two versions of FL programs on the Mac: one for Native M1 and one for older Macs??
This, I believe, is FL's quandary now. Can FL support both?
I don’t think so. Apple has something called “Rosetta” (as in “the Rosetta Stone” that translates the non-native Apple silicon apps to something useable. Apple did this previously when it changed from Power PC to Intel. Down the road, Apple will drop Rosetta, but when it does, the change over will be complete. We are years away from that. FL will have to pivot to Apple Silicon support only.
My quandary is that my MBP and Macbook air are 2012 and need to be replaced. I keep computers a long time. I can still get an intel processor, but what happens when the software no longer supports it? If I go with the new chip, what do I do with programs that are not ready. I had to go back to a microsoft based laptop... maybe just get the batteries replaced for not and see how the transition goes.
Universal binaries would contain native code for both Intel and Silicon M1. From a user’s perspective, there may just be one program which can run on either chip.
so it seems technically feasible to have a native version for the M1. Question: Would that mean that FL would have to support two versions of FL programs on the Mac: one for Native M1 and one for older Macs?? I don’t think so. Apple has something called “Rosetta” (as in “the Rosetta Stone” that translates the non-native Apple silicon apps to something useable. Apple did this previously when it changed from Power PC to Intel. Down the road, Apple will drop Rosetta, but when it does, the change over will be complete. We are years away from that. FL will have to pivot to Apple Silicon support only.
Looking at it from FL's perspective, then... If the current FL apps will run well on Rosetta, then wouldn't it make sense for FL to support just the Intel-based apps for now, and then have time to make the transition before Apple drops Rosetta? Otherwise, FL would have to support both versions in the meantime, regardless.
Down the road, Apple will drop Rosetta, but when it does, the change over will be complete. We are years away from that. FL will have to pivot to Apple Silicon support only.
We are many years away from that point, but even after Rosetta is dropped, there will be customers who hold off upgrading to the non-Rosetta OS. FL will likely move the older Logos version to Maintenance, rather than directly to Unsupported.
(Even though support for Libronix has ended, there are still a few people on the forums who are running Libronix. I imagine far more customers will still manage to use the Intel version of Logos well after support has ended, if the Lord hasn’t returned by then.)
I'm in a similar boat - 2011 iMac, 2013 MBP, neither of which can run Logos 9 (surprise!) and a 2019 MBP. I also have a couple of Windows boxes, but those aren't ideal for study.
If it helps with your decision, we should know shortly even in this forum how well Logos 9 works on the new M1 chips. It probably runs fine through Rosetta 2. If Logos is designed the way I think it is (and I have no special insight), making an ARM version should not be a huge technical hurdle.
Although Macs running on ARM is new, pretty much all smartphones and tablets do. So Apple has many years of experience programming for the architecture. It's less risky than, for example, when they switched from PowerPC to Intel. The only reason why I have concern is it's impossible for Apple to test against all third-party apps, and it is new, so I think a little prudence is worth it. And FL saying "yes, we're developing for the M1" would be a huge step in the right direction. If Logos runs slow now, you know it's just until the ARM version comes out.
But yes, even though universal binaries put both versions into one app, there still is some risk from a business perspective, and potential for bugs in one that aren't in the other. You see that today with PC-only and Mac-only bugs. The difference would be an additional category of Mac-ARM bugs.
Hope this helps
wouldn't it make sense for FL to support just the Intel-based apps for now, and then have time to make the transition before Apple drops Rosetta?
Rosetta 2 going away could be 7 or 8 years from now. (Rosetta 1 continued for 5 years after the transition to PowerPC was complete.)
Down the road, Apple will drop Rosetta, but when it does, the change over will be complete. We are years away from that. FL will have to pivot to Apple Silicon support only. FL will likely move the older Logos version to Maintenance, rather than directly to Unsupported.
FL will likely move the older Logos version to Maintenance, rather than directly to Unsupported.
I concur. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I just meant that I don’t see FL producing two versions.
Being that Apple Silicon has been anticipated for a long time, I am surprised there has nothing been said from FL about this yet, particularly as it relates to L9.
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/196163/1134738.aspx#1134738
I saw that, but it isn’t really does say much.
FL will eventually say more, but they don't chime in regularly to these kinds of questions.
That's probably a good thing. If there were critical issues that impacted Logos, they'd probably have given us a heads up.
I suspect we'll hear more from early adopters at this stage of testing, than from FL.
There's nothing wrong with being on the cutting edge, assuming a customer has another PC to fall back on should problems arise on the new OS and new hardware.
I have ordered the MBP 13 as my 2012 MBP is slowly dying, so I will let you know how it is, though my comparison will be with the 2012.
Because this is such a major development in the computer tech ecosphere, I think that Faithlife should make a clear statement regarding this, even if it were only to read, 'Our initial analysis shows some compatibility issues (or no compatibility issues) with the new Apple processors and Big Sur OS'. Followed by a disclaimer to protect themselves.
For what it's worth, I have a MacBook Air on order, and should have it in my hands November 17-18. My first task will be to install Logos and Proclaim and see how they run. I will upload my experience as soon as I can (I'm even thinking of creating a short video demonstration).
I'm purchasing this MacBook Air to handle Proclaim for our Sunday morning services, freeing up my MacBook Pro for live-stream duties, so it's crucial to me that Proclaim works well on it.
I read last night that the new MacBook Air's Geekbench score is almost as high as my MacBook Pro (https://bit.ly/3pl6CKj), which is an encouraging sign.
what do I do with programs that are not ready. I had to go back to a microsoft based laptop...
A fate only slightly preferable to death [:P] [:D]
what do I do with programs that are not ready. I had to go back to a microsoft based laptop... A fate only slightly preferable to death
A fate only slightly preferable to death
True, but I get tired of Apple making thing obsolete and requiring reinvestment in tech before I am ready. It is not just software, but printers, scanners etc.
For all practical purposes, we are doing the same work regardless of the hardware. I have a desire for one of these machines, pent up because my Mac is from 2012, but there is no tangible benefit beyond speed and convenience. My time in Logos is time in His Word. Should I really be in a hurry?
To clarify, Apple never requires reinvestment - what you have will continue to work as it does for a very long time - your software, hardware, peripherals all work together fine and will never be forced into not operating by Apple. It is the user who 'requires' reinvestment, not Apple - typically people who say this want to choose to upgrade one thing (the software, or the computer) and wonder why other things (hardware, software, peripherals) no longer work.
There is always someone unhappy with the decisions companies like Apple make, but in general most users and the overall market are very happy that companies like Apple aren't forced to 'bring along' and support user investments from so long ago. If they did, our solutions would be minimal advancements, crippled with least-common-denominator improvements because of all the old junk that can't handle new functionality or features. It just depends on a user's perspective I guess.
Hi Peter,
I was half kidding. I appreciate your comments. I have 2 2012 Macs that have battery issues. The timing of the change and the questions about how it impacts the programs and hardware I currently have is the issue along with being to continue to update the OS for security. I am sure longterm this change will be beneficial.
I also got a shipping notification. With the trade in and edu discount, I can get the Air for 12$ a month for 12 months on the Apple Card (and it only taxed the difference instead of full amount). So with the holiday return period, not having to send in the old MBP right away, etc. I made sense to me to see how it goes. I can also make a side by side video.
i can’t wait to see more benchmarks. Would love to see if ram makes a big difference.
I wasn’t a logos user when Apple switch from PPC (though I was a Mac user then). Seems like if they were willing to program for the small percentage back then wouldn’t it make sense to do so again today considering how many more people use macs during this tradition compared to the 2006 transition?
No worries! 😛
I have 2 2012 Macs
Just think of the multitude of hours you have saved in 8 years by not having to wait for your PC to restart.[Y]
How does it run?
These threads should be interesting to you:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/196433.aspx?PageIndex=1
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/196254.aspx?PageIndex=1
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/196476.aspx?PageIndex=1
I did some videos and a post about it and linked to the in this post here on the forums.
