Updating library catalog - persistent annoyance

I am not sure what is the official term for this problem although I assume everyone knows it.

I think now it is good time to discuss about this when the L9 smoke is settling and the Covid alleviated Christmas frenzy has not started yet.

I mean the orange/yellow line in the picture saying "Updating library catalog, list may be incomplete". It appears and disappears unexpectedly and often right before I press the mouse button and then something annoying might happen. Someone else might be able to describe it better (more accurately, more vividly, more emphatically etc...).

I've been using Logos for many years and I think this problem has been there all the time. I can even recall some discussion about it but I am not sure which words to use in the search string so I thought it is best to start a fresh thread.

I guess the origin is that some summer trainee designed it while in the original Logos garage, and it is hard coded and nobody braves to touch that code. But I assume no user is happy with this "feature" so it is time to fix it.

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Comments

Stephen McCracken

Veli, I actually don't mind it as it it means my reading on my iPad is updating with my desktop, etc. Most of the time I never see it as its only when you open Library and my desktop always opens with where I closed the programme and that's where I start working. But everyone has their preferences.

Rosie Perera

It happens whenever you have downloaded new books into your library, or have changed the tagging or other metadata on any of your books. The catalog must be updated at that point.

I suppose we could request a feature that delays such catalog updates until late at night or something, so they won't disturb you. But the problem is, you need the catalog to be updated or else the Library won't work properly.

For example, suppose you had ordered a pre-pub book by a particular author, and it suddenly arrived today. And suppose you were filtering your library to show the books by said author. Well, the new one wouldn't show up in that list until the catalog had been updated.

Or suppose you were going through doing a bunch of tagging of some new resources, and you wanted to check your work partway through, so you filter your library to show rating:2 ANDNOT mytag:* (that's my quick way to see what new resources have downloaded that I haven't applied tags to yet, since as soon as they download, I rate them all "2" which means new and unrated (0 stars means I haven't even marked them as new yet)). Well, it wouldn't work properly if the catalog hadn't finished updating, because the catalog wouldn't incorporate your most recent tagging changes.

I wish this step could be made quicker so we'd barely see the orange bar flashing by. Or perhaps you would rather not ever see it at all? Well, then you wouldn't know if what you were seeing in the Library was accurate or not. At least when we see the orange bar, we know we still have to wait a bit for the Library to show accurately what's in there.

I hope that makes sense.

Stephen McCracken

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1140775#Comment_1140775

I realise now that this feature is bigger than my first response. I highlight a sentence from commentary and it immediately its start updating (in this case in the Sermon Starter). I still don't mind, but I realise now that it affects more than simply Library. And working in dark mode I can see why it can be distracting for others.

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1140779#Comment_1140779

Well, the bar itself is not annoying, but the movement of the whole library list and panels when the bar is coming and going.

For example, if I am about to delete mytags for a selected group of books, the panel moves at the moment I click and I then delete wrong tag without knowing it. Finding the books again takes time as the useful tags are gone [:|]

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1140784#Comment_1140784

I finally found the right description: it is like trying to hit a moving target!

I could think it as a computer game or software virus, but when it is in a professional program for productive work, it should be fixed some day.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1140847#Comment_1140847

Now, Veli. Let's be just a little objective:

1. It's only been doing that for about 11 years. Try being patient.

2. It's not Logos' fault, the crazy customers preferred 'faster than molassas' speed, making the target-line progressively harder to predict.

3. Liven up your porch ... put a target on your screen and see if you can dodge the library-lines-moving hit.

4. View the repeated oops-wrong-line as just another cute Logos feature.

5. Or training support from Whatcom Community College.

More seriously, I agree ... and the UI not that hard to fix.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1140784#Comment_1140784

Well, the bar itself is not annoying, but the movement of the whole library list and panels when the bar is coming and going.

Agreed. I would much prefer a notification that didn't move everything on me.

Veli Voipio

But I assume no user is happy with this "feature" so it is time to fix it.

It came to my mind that the baseball fans among Logos users might actually like the up-and-down movement of the library lines [:D]. But the rest of us perhaps not.

I look forward to seeing comments from the FL software team.

John Kaess

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1141608#Comment_1141608

I agree that the process of updating the library needs to be fixed. I don't mind that it notifies me that this is happening, but the real problem is that when it appears and disappears it MOVES the contents of the library up and down, which is NOT NECESSARY. In addition, when it completes the update it unselects any resources I had selected. This is truly frustrating. The process of updating tags is fraught with danger because of the library contents moving and resources being unselected.

Mattillo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1141665#Comment_1141665

I agree. Anytime you tag a new book the banner pops up and you are playing whack a mole adding tags to multiple books. I don't remember it being this annoying. Also, even if I don't add any books, any time I restart Logos that banner will pop-up and sitt here from anywhere to 45 seconds to 2 minutes. Not quite sure why that has to happen every time

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1141687#Comment_1141687

Also: Why does it need to update the catalog everytime the program is restarted?

Timothy Beining

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1141738#Comment_1141738

Also: Why does it need to update the catalog everytime the program is restarted?

That is something I often wondered myself.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1141738#Comment_1141738

Why does it need to update the catalog everytime the program is restarted?

To the best of my knowledge, it doesn't - preparing library is setting up what needs to be accessible in memory or otherwise on your device.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1141738#Comment_1141738

Also: Why does it need to update the catalog everytime the program is restarted?

It doesn't, or shouldn't anyway. Only needs to if you've downloaded new resources and that's why you restarted the program. I got into a state a while back where it had to update the catalog every time I restarted the program, but that got fixed somehow. I don't remember how. So if you're seeing this every single time, even when you didn't download any new resources, then it's a problem and I'd ask Faithlife to look into it.

Timothy Beining

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142061#Comment_1142061

It doesn't, or shouldn't anyway. Only needs to if you've downloaded new resources and that's why you restarted the program.

I agree with the "shouldn't" and "Only if it needs to" parts. But it does every time I start the program up and has been doing this for years. It is quite annoying.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142097#Comment_1142097

It doesn't, or shouldn't anyway. Only needs to if you've downloaded new resources and that's why you restarted the program.

I agree with the "shouldn't" and "Only if it needs to" parts. But it does every time I start the program up and has been doing this for years. It is quite annoying.

Something has probably gotten corrupted. I would ask for help from Faithlife Tech Support.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142097#Comment_1142097

It doesn't, or shouldn't anyway. Only needs to if you've downloaded new resources and that's why you restarted the program.

I agree with the "shouldn't" and "Only if it needs to" parts. But it does every time I start the program up and has been doing this for years. It is quite annoying.

Hmmm. As a test, what happens if you let it completely index, with all updates and everything, then close the program (bearing in mind that some updates trigger things that require indexing that only begins after restart), and then restart it shortly thereafter? If you do this a couple times in a row, does it eventually stop indexing on launch? It will always try to sync, so make sure that you don't accidentally confuse the two.

Timothy Beining

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142109#Comment_1142109

Hmmm. As a test, what happens if you let it completely index, with all updates and everything, then close the program (bearing in mind that some updates trigger things that require indexing that only begins after restart), and then restart it shortly thereafter? If you do this a couple times in a row, does it eventually stop indexing on launch? It will always try to sync, so make sure that you don't accidentally confuse the two.

Indexing is not the problem I have. My program was recently reinstalled and is fully indexed. My problem has to do with the Library Upgrading the Catalog for no reason every time I start the program. I could understand it doing that if I added a resource.

It has done this for years. Did it on the iMac computer I had before this one. The one I'm using now is a PC running Windows 10. Come to think of it, it does this on my MacBook Pro. It does this on both Verbum and Logos.

I am one of those people who go straight to the Library when I fire up Verbum. It doesn't and shouldn't need to update something that is already up to date.

Tim

Timothy Beining

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142120#Comment_1142120

I have to agree with Veli and Mattillo. It is a moving target and just like whack-a-mole. It does get really annoying when you are in the Library trying to do tagging and such.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142120#Comment_1142120

Before we call Tech Support, can someone from FL please comment on whether "updating library catalog" happening on program startup is normal, expected behavior, or abnormal behavior?

I also have the Library as one of the tabs in my default layout, and I often go to it first at program startup.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142097#Comment_1142097

This may be due to updating Community Tags and Ratings. Even if your library hasn't changed, community tags and ratings have, and are being integrated into your library. You could try disabling them in Program Settings to see if that helps.

Timothy Beining

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142142#Comment_1142142

This may be due to updating Community Tags and Ratings. Even if your library hasn't changed, community tags and ratings have, and are being integrated into your library. You could try disabling them in Program Settings to see if that helps.

Bradley, I don't have Community Tags and Ratings turned on in the settings and it still does this. Any thoughts?

Tim

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142142#Comment_1142142

Thanks Bradley for commenting!

But please don't lose my original point: the up-and-down movement!

This may be due to updating Community Tags and Ratings. Even if your library hasn't changed, community tags and ratings have, and are being integrated into your library. You could try disabling them in Program Settings to see if that helps.

For me it is ok, if it indexes and if it notifies about it.

I begin to feel that everyone in FL knows about this problem, but for some reason it is not fixed.

fixed

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142122#Comment_1142122

I don't mind it at all. Generally. at least with me, the orange line isn't there that long and it does go away.

Me and my simple mind don't see this as major. I am sure when push comes to shove, we would all rather FL work on other things right now than allocate resources to this orange line.

Coming from WS... I vote to get all WS resource in before working on the orange line whereby all Logos people can be on the same page.

Just my 2 cents... which with $2.50 will buy a cup of coffee in some places. [8-|]

Mattillo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142195#Comment_1142195

Minor annoyance yes... definitely not a major issue.

I have a new macbook pro from earlier in 2020 and each time I restart Logos it takes about a minute to two minutes to sort through whatever it sorts through. As mentioned earlier, tagging is a pain. I try to get 3 tags in real quick and then wait until it finishes because the updating library bar forces a refresh.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142159#Comment_1142159

But please don't lose my original point: the up-and-down movement!

We have a case in our bug tracker for this problem, so it's not lost. (I didn't realise no one from Faithlife had replied about your original point.)

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142147#Comment_1142147

Bradley, I don't have Community Tags and Ratings turned on in the settings and it still does this. Any thoughts?

The other explanation would be updated metadata downloaded from our servers. (You can't disable this except by running completely offline.)

The frequency of this is a factor of how many books you have and how frequently we update metadata. I'd be surprised if it's happening every single time (since the intersection of a metadata update with your library shouldn't be happening constantly). A log file might show what the cause was for a given session; collecting dozens of log files might help show a trend.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142251#Comment_1142251

Bradley, I don't have Community Tags and Ratings turned on in the settings and it still does this. Any thoughts?

The other explanation would be updated metadata downloaded from our servers. (You can't disable this except by running completely offline.)

The frequency of this is a factor of how many books you have and how frequently we update metadata. I'd be surprised if it's happening every single time (since the intersection of a metadata update with your library shouldn't be happening constantly). A log file might show what the cause was for a given session; collecting dozens of log files might help show a trend.

If I tag a book on one Verbum installation and then open Verbum in another installation, that should trigger an update too, I would think. Likewise customizations of titles, short titles, series names... possibly changing reading percentages, too, since the Library can sort on that, too. Or am I way off? It's happened before!

Timothy Beining

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142251#Comment_1142251

(You can't disable this except by running completely offline.)

Bradley, thanks for getting back to me. I do have a question for you though. Is there some way this can be hidden so that it does not make the library listing jump around when working in there or maybe move that to the bar to the top where downloads show up?

That would make me and probably a lot of other people very happy.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142248#Comment_1142248

But please don't lose my original point: the up-and-down movement!

We have a case in our bug tracker for this problem, so it's not lost. (I didn't realise no one from Faithlife had replied about your original point.)

Concur Library notification with up-and-down movement combined with automatically resetting Library focus is persistently annoying, which has interrupted my library customizations numerous times (no warning refresh is about to happen plus any scrolling in Library view disappears during refresh). Would greatly appreciate user selection & focus being saved immediately before refreshing library tab(s) followed by restoring user selection & focus (suspect resource id's would be useful for saving & restoring since user cannot modify id's).

Keep Smiling [:)]

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142254#Comment_1142254

Is there some way this can be hidden so that it does not make the library listing jump around when working in there or maybe move that to the bar to the top where downloads show up?

The case in our bug tracker is to address this annoyance.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142253#Comment_1142253

If I tag a book on one Verbum installation and then open Verbum in another installation, that should trigger an update too, I would think. Likewise customizations of titles, short titles, series names... possibly changing reading percentages, too, since the Library can sort on that, too. Or am I way off? It's happened before!

You are correct. (In my reply, I may have read too much into the question "Why does it update the catalog every time Logos is restarted [when I haven't changed anything]?" If you are changing tags, ratings, or titles (or those are syncing from your other computer) then the Library Catalog will need to be updated.)

Veli Voipio

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142378#Comment_1142378

The case in our bug tracker is to address this annoyance.

Good! YES!!

From Kenya, 1985:

Mattillo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142142#Comment_1142142

This may be due to updating Community Tags and Ratings. Even if your library hasn't changed, community tags and ratings have, and are being integrated into your library. You could try disabling them in Program Settings to see if that helps.

Mine updates the library catalogue on every restart, no questions asked. I could start logos and let it index (if a new book) and add a tag. Wait for update. Exit and restart right away and it still comes back.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142385#Comment_1142385

Mine starts about 10 seconds after I open the library for the first time after closing the program and then runs for a minute and a half. L9.1 Mac running OS 10.14.6. Community tags and notes are turned off.

Timothy Beining

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142378#Comment_1142378

The case in our bug tracker is to address this annoyance.

Thank you Bradley!

Mattillo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1142389#Comment_1142389

Mine starts about 10 seconds after I open the library for the first time after closing the program and then runs for a minute and a half. L9.1 Mac running OS 10.14.6. Community tags and notes are turned off.

This is similar to me as well. Latest MAC OS and Logos update.