Logos and the piracy battle.

Exire said:

None of this helps when you can use logos offline, without the account. It suddenly becomes useless..

#8) is never rendered "useless" and is the most powerful deterent in the list.
I only enumerated a few simple facts to help keep "tempted users honest." Those who know how to write KeyGenerators, use packet sniffers, edit account files and spoof networks are already on one side of the fence or the other. If such a person isn't in the loss-prevention side they are probably not going to actually use the software for Bible study and certainly won't profit much from selling it to people who do. Therefore there is really not much loss of sales to the bottom line. Yes, there are still external ways for thieves to get Logos. But I seriously doubt anybody would be blessed by God studying His Word while knowingly & willfully disobeying it.

Like any law enforcement sting operation, Logos can allow the ongoing log of violations to accumulate before taking action. (See John Graves comment about seminary students.) This can also work in your favor. If you are interacting online with Logos.com while you are accused of allegedly doing a misdeed elsewhere, the server logs can vindicate you. (I know.) And the bandwidth question is moot nowadays. Logos' distribution system capacity is beyond your wildest imagination!

Exire said:

Floyd Johnson said:

Curious as to why Chris started this thread earlier today?  Did he see something specific - or was it meant as just a general question?

This whole topic actually can be summed up in whether or not it's okay for a company, or people, to profit on the word of God. I can see a lot of reasons as the why it's not a good thing to make money on the word of God, as Jesus wants us to reach as many as possible, and logos can be an invaluable tool in this matter, but not everyone can afford buying it. So, what about all those out there coming from third world countries, wanting to know the bible better, but not being able to afford it because it costs about a years worth of income? Jesus said that we we received the gospel and grace for nothing, and for nothing we should give it to others again! What about those words. How do they fit into this system?

You're confusing me.  I'm not following the link between your suggestion to have better encryption and this question here about the validity of making money with Bible software.  They're antithetical questions, no?

Without people getting paid to devote their time to the development of tools and books, we would not have them.  1Cor 9:7-12 , Galatians 6:6

Exire said:

With other words: don't make generic license files

 There isn't anything generic about Logos 4 licenses. As time goes on, and Version 3 fades away...[:'(], there will be less and less use of stolen Logos software. But to implement hardware dependent licenses is a backward step that Logos won't take.  I think it would hurt many times more legitimate users than the number of "circumventors" it stops. Logos will likely keep sowing the seed on fertile ground, rocky ground, weed patches and for bird food. Many will grow & reproduce while others die. My bet is the thieves won't grow spiritually.

Bob Schlessman said:

Bill Gordon said:

I doubt if piracy is that big a problem for Logos. People that want the type of books sold by Logos don't tend to be priates. Of course, I did have a Bible stolen once, so I might be wrong.

Actually, you might be surprised at the number of Christians who share software, cds, sheet music, and numerous other copyrighted materials. I am constantly reminding members of my congregation that it is illegal to do such things. One lady actually asked me if she could borrow my copy of Office 2007 because she had accidentally deleted her copy of Office 2003 and could not find her disc. She was honestly surprised when I told her no because it would be a breach of the license agreement and theft. It most of the cases I encounter, people are simply ignorant of the law and copyrights. The CCLI license agreements do cover most situations in our church events but there are still members who bring audio and video cds from home that are obviously copies not the originals. I usually just gently remind them that it is illegal to copy such items and let it go at that. I trust that once they are made aware of the breach of ethics and law (both civil and God's) then it is up to the Holy Spirit to convict and guide them.

This is a good point. When I first ever heard of Bible software, I was
so excited. A friend and I in church went halves to buy what we could.
That was back when versions were sold separately on 3-1/2" (make that 5-1/4" )floppies. He
and I had no clue of copyrights of software. We thought we were doing
the prudent thing as good stewards. Now of course we would have never dreamed of going into that store at night and taken them. But in effect that is what we were doing. Some time later I paid for his half
just because I wanted it to be mine and I used it more. It had nothing to do with moral obligation. 

I later went through another
phase that it was not immoral but only a technical legal issue
concerning both software and music. It wasn't until recent years that I
came to a clear understanding of the realities of it all. I still have
people all around me that just don't get it. In fact I would venture to
bet that 8 out of ten people don't see anything wrong with it. God went
to some pretty incredible measures to bring me to an understanding that
it is stealing. I think God will do the same with anyone who belongs to
Him. And those that don't would lose interest and not use it in the long run.

But there are a lot of militant pirates out there on this issue who believe, or at least proclaim strongly that it is the Bible Software companies that are in the wrong because they sell what some can't afford. They have the "Robin Hood" mentality, instead of looking to God for providing it to them if they really need it. 

I think Bob said it well here. 

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and
against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Exire said:

Well, their problem is that the people stealing their software doesn't use the accounts, so there is NO WAY logos can ever see if they use legitimate or not licenses.

The reason is simple: the hackers (or whatever you would call them) disable everything there is in L4 that communicates with logos. That means both software updates, check for new version, crash reports and everything else in the system that "talks" with the servers. They also choose to work offline as that doesn't require a login, thus bypassing the whole account system, blocking communication with logos servers through the HOST file and last but not least, license files are added when in offline mode to prevent the license file from being transferred to the logos servers and then blacklisted.

So there is ways around the system. Therefore I propose that they tied their software to machine specific hardware like iTunes does for example, and also changes logos so that it won't allow adding/changing/updating the license files WITHOUT first connecting to logos to verify it, your account and also that the computer is legitimate.

With other words: don't make generic license files that only unlock the resources, but make them the essence of your whole account and make them contain information about hardware IDs, your account, resources you have bought etc. and then hash it all up into a user SPECIFIC license file that is different for every user and every computer you have logos installed on. That way it gets REALLY hard to circumvent the system.

As long as logos allows offline login and editing of license files without first passing the license file to their systems for verification, it will still be easy for people to hack the software.

I'm puzzled here. Isn't the license in L4 already tied to an account? As far as I know, when I install L4 I have to be online to get my license otherwise nothing happens. And if you try to sniff out some files, doesn't the program installed on your computer first needs to know where to connect to? If I don't have a license for L4 it doesn't do anything. How will a packet sniffer then sniff out any download locations?

As far as I'm concerned, the protection in Logos 4 is quite good enough for now. I rather have the folks at Logos spend their energy and resources to finish and fine tune this product, then focusing their attention on protection schemes. It might even bring more frustration for the legitimate users if they added more anti-piracy locks into the program.

Exire said:

Never mind this post. It was stupid of me to post. Did it late at night, without thinking clearly, so much of what I've written in a couple of posts is plain stupid and not logical. That's what you get for trying to write something in a language that's not your mother tongue..

MODS: Please delete the topic!

They don't tend to delete entire threads unless there's been a gross violation of Logos's forum guidelines, which this doesn't constitute at all. There are still posts within this thread which are informative and may be of some value to other readers, even if you regret having asked your initial question.

Bob Schlessman said:

. . .but there are still members who bring audio and video cds from home that are obviously copies not the originals.

Hi Bob,

In today's world with all the technology you will never see my family or I bring an original copy of any CD. I don't use the original disk anymore. When I buy a CD I make a copy of it. I don't use the originals because they get damaged. I use the copies. When my copy gets damaged I throw it out and make another copy. I have trained my children to do this. I hope they train their children to do it. I don't pirate stuff and you'll never find anything pirated on my system. However, I protect anything I buy so I make copies of it and use the copies. I can't imagine how much money I have saved from having to replace originals since I started making copies. My point is I doubt I'm the only one who does this. Just because your members bring copies does not mean they are violating anything. They just can't pass those copies on to anybody though. I am starting to do the same thing with my movies. The movies are not as important as the music though.