https://www.logos.com/wayne-grudem-systematic-theology?utm_campaign=promo-wgtheology&utm_content=141942061&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&hss_channel=fbp-5881874931&fbclid=IwAR1WK42r3Mxrobt2lgsSwJSSb0HNhycs3EBUCO9mOBRcHSZOXoasVG_y124
This headline bothered me back in October and it bothers me more and more every time I see it including (yet another) email this morning.
Am I the only one? To me, the Second Coming is a precious doctrine and to see the term applied in celebration of any theologian's work just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
No, you are not the only one.
Well, per the professional, Mr Piper, it's God's gift. There's sort of an echo there.
Though, I agree, Marketing has a limited sense of the Divine.
Is it a bit crass? I suppose, but this thread also reminds me of the dispute about the use of the term "apostle", which some absolutely insist--despite evidence to the contrary--can only be used and applied to The Twelve. Interestingly, the terminology "the Twelve" actually is used in Scripture to specifically address the twelve disciples chosen for a unique office in alignment with the twelve tribes. However, no one would be taken seriously if he or she started insisting that from now forward when counting we must all count "...ten, eleven, thirteen, fourteen..." because the word "twelve" can only be rightly applied to the disciples/apostles. While I think there is some level of respect due to Yeishuua`'s Second Coming, I don't think it is necessarily demeaned by applying that phrase to other "second comings". That said, could it be? Probably so. In this case? It seems like it is "worrying the fence" a bit, doesn't it? I'm sure part of that sense comes from the fact that it is employed for the sake of marketing a product for sale. Secondly (uh, can I use that word???[:S]), I personally don't consider an updated systematic theology, Grudem's or anyone else's, to be a particularly significant event...not the least reason being that if it was so systematic, why would it need to be updated in the first place? Besides, are we to conclude that Yeishuua will be returning for the sake of fixing earlier errors, filling in gaps and oversights, and otherwise tweaking His First Coming to provide better fidelity to the Truth? No? Perhaps then best to just refer to this effort as a second edition and leave it at that. Ham-fisted? Yeah. Disrespectful or heretical? Not so much.
To sum up my good brother's reply...
Really?
I think there was a thread about this back in October.
I mean... I like Grudem, but he's no King Jesus. Sort of like comparing Brussle Sprouts to Apples.
Well, it‘s a Faithlife thing! Always finding an advertisement that will catch people’s attention. Take for instance the Spanish department they were having COVID-19 flash sales and COVID-19 specials. People are dying from COVID-19 but hey if you can make a buck out of it use it to advertise your sales.
I stopped worrying about stupidity like that because if you complain you run the risk of getting locked out of the forums because your comments will be considered “inflammatory.” Yet the very person that says your post is inflammatory doesn’t mind posting F-bombs on Facebook. Pathetic and ironic in my opinion. But hey more power to that person 😂😂😂
My strategy is buy what I need and upgrade when I can. The less I worry about stupidity like that the better life becomes 👍😁👌
DAL
Brussel sprouts rule! Oh, wait...is that stealing YHWH's glory?? [:#]
Abondaervant,
The F-Bomb was on that person’s Facebook not the forums. In either case, you’d expect a godly behavior everywhere not just here in the forums. Facebook allows all kinds of worldly posts anyway, so no surprise there if the person tries to have fun or vent in Facebook.
Me personally, I’ve also had my negative stretch here, but I have never posted curse words anywhere. I don’t do curse words period! Even if it’s contained in a post I could share. I’m not like some people that share someone else’s post that contains a curse word and then apologize “I’m sorry but this post has a curse word and is not mine.” Hey if it’s got a curse word don’t share it, period!
I don’t like it either.
You know, I didn't even fully read the headline and assumed they were advertising a book he wrote about the second coming. (I am not a fan of Grudem so I tend to ignore anything with his name on it.) I see your point, it is bothersome.
I have no problem with it. It in no way implies elevating anything to divine status. It’s just saying, here’s the update people have been long awaiting, that’s all.
I have no problem with it. It in no way implies elevating anything to divine status
Thanks for bringing some common sense into this inadvertent Rorschach test. I shan't start a riot by admitting how I misread the thread title.
https://www.logos.com/wayne-grudem-systematic-theology?utm_campaign=promo-wgtheology&utm_content=141942061&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&hss_channel=fbp-5881874931&fbclid=IwAR1WK42r3Mxrobt2lgsSwJSSb0HNhycs3EBUCO9mOBRcHSZOXoasVG_y124 This headline bothered me back in October and it bothers me more and more every time I see it including (yet another) email this morning. Am I the only one? To me, the Second Coming is a precious doctrine and to see the term applied in celebration of any theologian's work just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
But it's all personal opinion and I have no problem with those who blow it off and buy the resource.
I didn't really notice it the first time but now that you have brought it up I think it was not the wisest choice of marketing words. I doubt whether Grudem would approve of it either.
It’s ok. With our politically correct culture, it is so hard to word anything. People get offensive on such small things that years ago we would be laughing from that. When I rewatch old comedies, I am shocked how we changed. We don’t use same humor anymore. Humor gets vanished. Read reformers, the words they used, people would drag them through the courts, even Christians if contemporary preachers would use something similar.
For what little it may be worth, it struck me as a bit tacky too. That's not to say that anyone did anything wrong - humor can be hard to get right, and tacky isn't the same thing as blasphemous. Humor's also a matter of taste. For me it came across a bit like the co-worker who thinks he's funny, but isn't. For others it may have come across like one of Monty Python's finest bits.
Ok without offending anybody. What if the ad had read “The catholic mother of all systematic theologies is coming soon — Now in its second edition!”
All it’s really saying is that Grudem’s Systematic Theology is the Universal Mother of all systematic theologies and that now it will soon be offered in its second edition, right?
Tell me if the “marketing strategy” has used a wise choice of words? Would people get offended?
I think the marketing department should stay away from using biblical terminology like they’ve done in the past. I remember their sale of “Biblical proportions” advertisement and I wasn’t really impressed by the sale or the choice of words either.
Anyway, like I said, I don’t let those things bother me anymore. Marketing will always be marketing and there’s nothing we can do about it because they don’t work for us and it’s not our company! I buy their products but that’s it! No need to become bitter over things you can’t control even if there’s a double standard in the way they do certain things!
Meh. I used to work on Madison Avenue and did copywriting for some really famous clients. Look up the word hyperbole and realize that since the phrase did get your attention that was entirely the point.
Would I have used that wording. Probably not, but FL doesn't always vet their material well. But they are hardly alone in the matter.
Meh. I used to work on Madison Avenue and did copywriting for some really famous clients. Look up the word hyperbole and realize that since the phrase did get your attention that was entirely the point. Would I have used that wording. Probably not, but FL doesn't always vet their material well. But they are hardly alone in the matter.
I like how Accordance promotes their sales. Sometimes they sound silly, but they (as far as I've known them) have not used Biblical or theological catch phrases to promote their sales.
The forums need a facepalm emoji.
They really do.
JRS can have yet another face-palm, but I agree. I noticed that years back, Accordance (and OT plus Laridian) seemed to be tuned in a lot better. My impression at the time, was FL was an evangel world ... they talk that way. I'm forever impressed, like naming your dog, 'Dog', that Christianity was a function of the Jews avoiding YHWH. Now days, Christians like to throw the name around with happy abandon. Marcion would be scowling.
But I am a big supporter of 'if it's ok with me' then, everyone else needs to agree.
Facepalm was not directed at DAL or any other individual, rather, at the subject of the entire thread - just another way of saying, "Really?".
Here's a triple face-palm just in case anyone needs one. It only works on those over about 50, though. And, it predates the actual use of the palm...it's more of a face-pincer-grasp.
<rimshot>
(...desperately trying to inject humor into the situation...)
Aaaah...ah...😂😂😂
Ah...aah...😆
I am not for making a big deal out of it, but it is obvious that many people dislike the "second coming" headline. I doubt the use of the phrase attracts many people, and it does turn away some. If I were the author, I would not want my advertisement to be a turn off. Why would any writer?
I would say pointing this out does the excellent writer a favor.
I agree Michael. The "face palms" and telling the OP that his thread lacks common sense, to me is appalling. I have once again been reminded that this is not a friendly forum.
I spent a lot of time in a place where the retort...
'Catch yourself on'
was considered a friendly reminder to review the position you are taking.
I think of it as an attempt to be a cute play on words. I don’t think it was a good idea, given it could be interpreted as equating it to the importance of the Second Coming. But I doubt that this was their intention.
It reminds me of a Rock station back in Dallas Texas where they had a second Corvette giveaway and they called it “The Second Coming.” It was on billboards and radio commercials. Even then people thought it wasn’t a good idea to use those “catch phrases.”
I agree. Also, I thought it was funny/clever. To be specific, the allusion here is to an event--as @Darrell wrote--one that is long awaited. It does not imply any kind of equivalence between this book and the Son of Man whose return all of us here eagerly await, even while were are preparing to celebrate His birth! There some irony there, isn't there.
I would say pointing this out does the excellent writer a favor. I agree Michael. The "face palms" and telling the OP that his thread lacks common sense, to me is appalling. I have once again been reminded that this is not a friendly forum.
I think you are misunderstanding the dynamic of what's been said. I don't think anyone has spoken ill of the OP'er. The face palms have to do with the decision of FL advertising to inject Messianic references into a marketing campaign, not (as far as I can see) Bob B's decision to bring this to the forum's attention.
Since I don't use his first, I'm not concerned about his second or third, fourth, fifth, etc. there are better reads and in my estimation better quality theology books to spend my time with. IMHO
If you don't mind me asking... what are your favorites? I grew up on Grudem so I usually go there first with MacArthur's 2nd
Since I don't use his first, I'm not concerned about his second or third, fourth, fifth, etc. there are better reads and in my estimation better quality theology books to spend my time with. IMHO If you don't mind me asking... what are your favorites? I grew up on Grudem so I usually go there first with MacArthur's 2nd
Good question!
Maybe we can change the course of the thread to something more positive 👍😁👌
My go to first are:
1. Norman Geisler Systematic Theology
2. Jack Cottrell
3. Grudem
4. MacArthur
5. Wilhemus The Christian’s Reasonable Service
6. Millard
7. Bird Evangelical Theology
I did find it somewhat offensive, but +1 to this:
It's kind of infuriating that he's become, to a large extent, the default in the field simply because of the title (though also admittedly good organization). "Pastor, I loved your class! I got a systematic theology book to read!" "Let me guess which one..." [8-)]
Not leaving the broader Reformed tradition, you can do better just in the Bs alone: Barth, Brunner, Berkouwer, Bavinck, even (L.) Berkhof.
A nice newer one: https://www.logos.com/product/187941/christian-dogmatics-an-introduction
Sonderegger's is beautiful.
https://www.logos.com/product/53043/systematic-theology-volume-1-the-doctrine-of-god
Only the first volume is out but the second is in production.
It's kind of infuriating that he's become ...,
You guys are making me nervous. Arizona's economy is heavily dependent on our major industries ... mining, swimming pools, and evangel-propagation. Plus, of course, our Logos-istas for the Mac.
It's kind of infuriating that he's become, to a large extent, the default in the field simply because of the title (though also admittedly good organization). "Pastor, I loved your class! I got a systematic theology book to read!" "Let me guess which one..."
Yeah I will admit that his is quite dominant. It was the first Systematic Theology I experienced even though I don't agree with everything he has to say. I think it is popular because of what you said earlier... great organization. He recently gave an interview and explained that he wrote it as if his parents were in his class reading his book. I've read a few sys theos and had to go back and reread them because I get lost in their writings. His was always right to the point, had review questions, and was easily broken up into small group classes. He talks about some of that here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpIK-vrgbws
I have branched out since but he was definitely my entrance into the field.
Not leaving the broader Reformed tradition, you can do better just in the Bs alone: Barth, Brunner, Berkouwer, Bavinck, even (L.) Berkhof. A nice newer one: https://www.logos.com/product/187941/christian-dogmatics-an-introduction Sonderegger's is beautiful. https://www.logos.com/product/53043/systematic-theology-volume-1-the-doctrine-of-god Only the first volume is out but the second is in production.
Thank you for these! I'm familiar with Berkhof and Bavinck. I'll have to look into Berkouwer. I was told to stay away from Barth because he had some really strange ideas and then something along the lines of he had a concubine or was adulterous. I never looked into it but I'm eyeing up the reformed platinum package so maybe I'll take a look at it someday. 31 volumes though... my goodness
Good question! Maybe we can change the course of the thread to something more positive 👍😁👌 My go to first are: 1. Norman Geisler Systematic Theology 2. Jack Cottrell 3. Grudem 4. MacArthur 5. Wilhemus The Christian’s Reasonable Service 6. Millard 7. Bird Evangelical Theology
I forgot about Geisler! That is a great one too along with Millard. I'm not all that familiar with Cottrell, Wilhemus or Bird. I've seen some Bird interviews though so I'll add that to the wish list
Two others I have flipped a few pages in and liked are: Foundations of Evangelical Theology and the new Reformed Systematic Theology set (2 volumes out thus far)
It's kind of infuriating that he's become, to a large extent, the default in the field
That depends rather dramatically on your theological background.
Were it not for these forums and Faithlife's marketing, I wouldn't yet have heard of him.
It's kind of infuriating that he's become, to a large extent, the default in the field That depends rather dramatically on your theological background. Were it not for these forums and Faithlife's marketing, I wouldn't yet have heard of him.
Oh yes, most definitely; and also one's region. Where I am, it's one of the few works that is widely and cheaply available even at a regular Christian book store, so many people readily pick it up. But I have never seen another work of ST so heavily marketed.
The title also helps a lot; it says what it is. It reminds me of earlier days when my beginning, English-as-a-second-or-third-language students in their "Intro to Systematic Theology Class" would always gravitate to Pannenberg or Tillich in the library because of the title. No, don't start there! Meanwhile a much easier "Dogmatics in Outline" will go unbrowsed.
But I have never seen another work of ST so heavily marketed.
In the theological circles I tend to travel in, no one needs to "market" the Summa Theologiae. The Summa is a given. We just market guides to it.
I try to get folks to read Introduction to Christianity....
Maybe we can change the course of the thread to something more positive 👍😁👌 My go to first are: 1. Norman Geisler Systematic Theology 2. Jack Cottrell 3. Grudem 4. MacArthur 5. Wilhemus The Christian’s Reasonable Service 6. Millard 7. Bird Evangelical Theology
My first was Lectures in Systematic Theology | Logos Bible Software as a textbook at Moody Bible Institute in 1984.
Well... the way I look at advertising is as simple as what Forest Gump would say...
"Stupid is as stupid does my mom always said"
[8-|]
Like, maybe, why churchmen NEED a 'systemic (systematic) theology'?? I thought the post asking about a jewish one was instructive ... as if somehow the Talmud got lost somewhere.
Maybe we can change the course of the thread to something more positive 👍😁👌 Like, maybe, why churchmen NEED a 'systemic (systematic) theology'?? I thought the post asking about a jewish one was instructive ... as if somehow the Talmud got lost somewhere.
I like the Talmud. I wish they had it in Spanish. My dad’s been looking for it but no luck!
