Hebrew Audio Bible - Another Appeal
Comments
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MJ. Smith said:
Can you give me some references for Semitic historical linguistics and Proto-Semitic grammar and dictionary?
Been recently researching this topic again...came across this article on Wikipedia: Semitic Languages
This note basically states what I have been saying for a decade or so--the bgdkpt "transition" is a relatively late phenomenon. In fact, this note dates the development even later than I would have. Maybe they are correct, but at least as concerns the transition of the peh from the regular <p> sound to the <ph> or <f> sound, I could easily see that beginning to take hold within the 2nd to 1st century BCE, taking into account the influence and reach of Hellenization resulting from Alexander's activities in the 330s. My point has always been that when most if not all of the OT was being put to parchment or papyrus, none of these Johnny-come-lately phonemes were part of the mix. I still contend that the original intention of the bdgkpt distinction has to do with the difference between initial and ultimate sound quality of the letters in question, and that the notion of there being a completely different phoneme was not part of the purpose--at least until a significant amount of time had passed.
Nehemia Gordon, the somewhat well-known Karaite, has been trying to sell the notion that the vav is the original pronunciation of the waaw in an attempt to support his pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton. That dog not only doesn't hunt...it doesn't eat, cuz that dog be ded. As I said earlier in this thread, the Greek digamma, which was abandoned fairly early in the history of Greek as a written language (probably before Isaiah was written), was a sixth-position letter that had a <w> sound, just like the sixth position waaw in Hebrew. Semitic influence on Greek is well-known and obvious. Vav is the late bloomer in this drama.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
Been recently researching this topic again
Agree. Greek ditto (Siebeck; Development of Greek)
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Reuben Helmuth said:
It's interesting to note that, almost exclusively, it scholars who don't speak modern Hebrew who downplay it's role and helpfulness in understanding Biblical Hebrew. (I'm not a scholar so I'm "just" making observations!) The scholars I've talked to who do speak modern Hebrew (including Randall Buth), almost universally maintain that speaking modern Hebrew is critical to having a really good grasp on BH. I believe this is due to the "intuition" one develops in conversational language. One anecdote from a friend of mine who learned modern Hebrew as part of her BH studies: During a consultant checking session, the consultant kept insisting that a particular Hebrew structure is used in a certain way and has a specific meaning. My friend disagreed based on intuition, so they agreed to research. Lo and behold, the intuition was born out irrefutably in computer aided research, debunking a widely held assumption.
Wow, that's a long-winded way to demonstrate one of the reasons I support using modern Hebrew pronunciation for an audio narration of the Hebrew Bible.
Aside: It's not for no reason that Buth is running his school in Israel!
I thought I made a comment in reply to these statements some time back, but I don't see them. Possibly they were typed but never posted (it has happened before). If I had posted, my comments would have essentially pointed out that there simply IS NO ACCEPTED FORM OF HEBREW AT THIS TIME THAT IS CONSIDERED STANDARD among (all) Jewish people. That, in no small reason, is because there is no legitimate category of "Jewish people" that is adequately acceptable for describing "Jewish people" as a whole. This is something that has been addressed in the realm of "Jewish religion" in the Second Temple era, when there were multiple variations of belief and practice, many at odds with others, and that situation hasn't improved much if any since. My point is that the kind of responses voiced in the forum that say, "I don't want to know Hebrew as it used to be...I want to know it as Jews use it now" are taking a position that is both ignorant and disconnected. But there's more to it than just that. Figuring out what Hebrew used to be in its Biblical context is not just something that matters to the likes of supposedly persnickety people like me.
As I said above, I have gotten back into this subject again, and in the process came across this page. THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT when I say there is NO SUCH THING as a widely accepted form of Modern Hebrew. To say, "I just want to use the pronunciations that Jews I speak with are using" is to demonstrate a lack of awareness of what the present state of affairs is regarding Hebrew today. That state is this: IT'S ALL OVER THE MAP. However, my primary reason for including this page isn't what is said in the article itself, which is taken from the Jewish Chabad.org website, but to bring attention to what is said in the comments section at the bottom. These JEWISH respondents are indicating not just dissatisfaction with the varieties between Ashkenazic, Sephardic, Yemenite, and whatever else there might be...they are explicitly stating that they are aware that time and distance have taken a toll--and they consider that "toll" to be a PROBLEM that needs to be fixed. If found this comment to be particularly relevant and illuminating:
This sentiment, even if it can be tweaked slightly here or there, is the appropriate perspective. Christians, who don't have the same kind of skin in the game that Jews have, ought to be encouraging this frame of mind and should be promoting those who want to abandon CLEAR AND OBVIOUS ERROR for something that is as close to accurate as all of the available evidence indicates. Sephardim have fumbled the vowels, Ashkenazim have fumbled the consonants, and the Yemeni have stirred things to mush. But a little bit of logic and common sense applied to the textual evidence of the Hebrew and Greek Bibles, along with evidence of other Semitic languages, can get us very close to something that would be familiar to Daawidh and Mohsheh.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
As I said above, I have gotten back into this subject again, and in the process came across this page.
The conclusion of that article says:
[quote]Therefore, the Rebbe writes that he sees no reason why one should change from the pronunciation that he is used to. However, if one does have reason to change his pronunciation, he should make sure to be consistent and pray the entire prayer (including G‑d’s Name) with the same pronunciation, be it Sepharad, Ashkenaz or Modern Hebrew.
The Biblical Hebrew pronunciation wasn't even specifically mentioned.
Perhaps in eternity, where everything is perfect, everyone will speak and understand Biblical Hebrew. Until then, expecting people to listen to how Moses or David pronounced Hebrew isn't practical, since it's not a pronunciation that most observant Jews are used to.
(As an aside, the Ephraimites didn't pronounce Shibboleth the way the Gileadites did. This was ~400 years after Moses, and less than 100 years before David. If there were distinctions back then, why should we accept that there shouldn't be distinctions today?)
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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PetahChristian said:
Perhaps in eternity, where everything is perfect, everyone will speak and understand Biblical Hebrew. Until then, expecting people to listen to how Moses or David pronounced Hebrew isn't practical, since it's not a pronunciation that most observant Jews are used to.
You act like Jews, observant or otherwise, don't have drastically significant change in front of them already (if they want to actually get what they think is coming to them). The step of redeeming their language is small potatoes compared to getting Maashiyahh right. EVERYONE--if prophecy is worth a dime--has UNBELIEVABLE readjustment in front of them...there are NO EXCEPTIONS. The kinds of (as most would see it) radical readjustment that are going to be required would be well served by taking on the relatively benign adjustment of getting the language right. Call it "good practice". You are obviously under the impression that this kind of issue isn't a big deal to YHWH. I expect you will find out otherwise...and like many folks with regard to many things, it may well be too late to do anything about it. Sitting on your lees--whoever you are--is a recipe for the bitterest pills folks can possibly imagine.
Your response reminds me of those Jews who don't necessarily dismiss Yeishuua`, but they look at prophecy and see many unfulfilled Messianic prophecies and refuse to make a commitment. They are choosing to cool their heels until it is obvious that those prophecies have been checked off. The problem with that kind of viewpoint is that there's more than enough prophetic reason to think that kind of wait-and-see approach just isn't going to cut it. But I guess when folks are convinced that the "big stuff" has all been taken care of already, then sitting in the bleachers and being an audience probably seems benign...and maybe even safe. It isn't.
Oh, and regarding Shibboleth...getting it wrong resulted in drastic consequences. PEOPLE DIED. Funny how that part gets almost totally overlooked when it is brought up in this context. When you think the Bible is history rather than prophecy, it seems so much like a warm fuzzy pup.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I only mentioned eternity in regard to Biblical Hebrew. I'm not here to discuss salvation or prophecy or the Messiah.
David Paul said:Oh, and regarding Shibboleth...getting it wrong resulted in drastic consequences. PEOPLE DIED.
Yes, exactly, and I think one group of Israelites killing another group of Israelites is tragic. If you are suggesting that there were spiritual consequences to people using the wrong pronunciation, or it was breaking a specific commandment, please provide Bible references.
David Paul said:You are obviously under the impression that this kind of issue isn't a big deal to YHWH.
I know how Hebrew is pronounced is a big deal for you, but I'm not going to presume what is or isn't a big deal to YHWH, language or otherwise.
David Paul said:When you think the Bible is history rather than prophecy,
It's not one or the other. Both are there for a reason.
The Bible isn't a warm, fuzzy anything. For me, encounters with YHWH produce fear, dread, terror. I only say that because you seem so certain about my thoughts and beliefs.
I don't mind a frank discussion, but when you suggest that I am clueless or ignorant about salvation, prophecy, or "good practice," it simply isn't beneficial, David.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Looks like an audio version of the Hebrew Bible is up for pre-order now (from the Bible Society in Israel)
I'm curious to confirm: is it the audio version found on this site?
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Yes, I believe it is, Kevin. It's the dramatic reading with music.
Thanks for finding that product page, exciting times to finally get a Hebrew audio bible!
Edit: Here's the same pre-order on the Logos store.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Exciting news!
Hans
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Kevin Clemens said:
Looks like an audio version of the Hebrew Bible is up for pre-order now (from the Bible Society in Israel)
I'm curious to confirm: is it the audio version found on this site?
Just saw this on Pre-pub. I wonder if it will be integrated into Logos to make it more worthwhile (e.g., sync with the text of one or more editions of the Hebrew Bible). As I recall, Bible Society in Israel actually translates and narrates some of the Aramaic sections in Biblical Hebrew---including the lengthy section from the book of Daniel.
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Super!
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PetahChristian said:
Yes, I believe it is, Kevin. It's the dramatic reading with music.
Correction: The one in Logos does not include the music.
If you haven't noticed, this pre-pub is included in several Logos 9 libraries, and the resource will download today if you purchase one of those libraries.
Thanks to FL for acquiring this for Logos and for providing early access to it!
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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A second Hebrew audio bible: https://www.logos.com/product/198013/letteris-hebrew-bible
Thanks, FL!
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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David Paul said:
Nehemia Gordon, the somewhat well-known Karaite, has been trying to sell the notion that the vav is the original pronunciation of the waaw in an attempt to support his pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton. That dog not only doesn't hunt...it doesn't eat, cuz that dog be ded....
yeah I often have to field questions about that Charleton with my students. Fortunately, someone shared with me recently this excellent series where the lecturer methodically and definitively destroys Nehemia Gordon's positions. He steps through all of the major texts and any which Gordon claims to use. If anyone needs this, here is their channel on youtube: Hebrew Gospels I only reviewed 2 of the lectures but the lecturer has a clear grasp of Hebrew grammar and the masorah and he decimates Gordon's claims sharing clips of the claim then often demonstrating that the exact opposite is true from what Nehemia Gordon is claiming. Gordon, an unbeliever, basically preys on the ignorance of Christians who don't know any Hebrew, like Michael Rood, using emotion and enthusiasm as if he's discovered something. This has been quite profitable for him by claiming to be a Karaite (usually Egyptian Jews), he positions himself as "anti-Rabbinical" and that attracts many comrades who don't care that Gordon doesn't not believe Yeshua is the Messiah.
Dr. Heisser and Dr. Michael Brown also call Gordon out regarding his "discovery of the name's true pronunciation" ... Heiser on the Naked bible podcast and Brown on Youtube (no links in hand sorry).
Dead languages are my mid-life crisis
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PetahChristian said:
Yes, I believe it is, Kevin. It's the dramatic reading with music.
Thanks for finding that product page, exciting times to finally get a Hebrew audio bible!
Edit: Here's the same pre-order on the Logos store.
Shalom everyone, I wanted to ask you guys has anyone found a way to play starting at the verse being read? For example if you open ESV you can just hit CTRL-R and it will read starting at the verse where you are at. When I open the resource it seems it only navigates by chapter (Bible works had this flaw as well).
Is there a way to do this? I tried from within BHS and LHB. Thanks in advance for any tips;
-Jeremiah
Dead languages are my mid-life crisis
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Jeremiah said:
yeah I often have to field questions about that Charleton with my students. Fortunately, someone shared with me recently this excellent series where the lecturer methodically and definitively destroys Nehemia Gordon's positions. He steps through all of the major texts and any which Gordon claims to use. If anyone needs this, here is their channel on youtube: Hebrew Gospels I only reviewed 2 of the lectures but the lecturer has a clear grasp of Hebrew grammar and the masorah and he decimates Gordon's claims sharing clips of the claim then often demonstrating that the exact opposite is true from what Nehemia Gordon is claiming. Gordon, an unbeliever, basically preys on the ignorance of Christians who don't know any Hebrew, like Michael Rood, using emotion and enthusiasm as if he's discovered something. This has been quite profitable for him by claiming to be a Karaite (usually Egyptian Jews), he positions himself as "anti-Rabbinical" and that attracts many comrades who don't care that Gordon doesn't not believe Yeshua is the Messiah.
Dr. Heisser and Dr. Michael Brown also call Gordon out regarding his "discovery of the name's true pronunciation" ... Heiser on the Naked bible podcast and Brown on Youtube (no links in hand sorry).
I don't particularly think Nehemia is a charlatan, rather, he is just wrong about this topic. He occasionally has helpful things to say, though I do agree he suffers from his association with Michael Rood, who comes much closer to being a charlatan in my book. Nehemia got Rood to reluctantly change his pronunciation from Yahweh to Yahovah a few years back, although Michael has since taken on that pronunciation with aplomb. I remember thinking that much of Rood's resistance came from his not wanting to have to admit being wrong, either in public or at the end of another person's argument even if it was a friend (change in view is much more palatable when it can be passed off as that fruit of one's own individual study, as opposed to outside duress). But he really had no chance of standing up to Nehemia's "evidence" since Nehemia is essentially a native Hebrew speaker (born is the U.S. but trained in Hebrew at a young age and has lived in Israel). Ironically, I think that much of Nehemia's cheerleading for his pet pronunciation is because he also doesn't want to have to claim error on something he's invested so much of his reputation into.
That said, just because the video guy may have a good case for disputing Nehemia's pet pronunciation, that doesn't mean he's right in his own perspective. Haven't listened to the video all the way through, but he said a thing or two in the few minutes that I listened that indicate to me he may have errors of his own. Not surprising as YHWH's name is definitely part of His Unbelievable Work and prophetically hidden until the appointed time. I actually think Nehemia isn't far off, but his pronunciation is Modern Hebrew, not Biblical.
Fwiw, I have disagreements with both Heiser and Brown on certain topics, though I think Heiser is less sketchy. I don't accept anyone's arguments wholesale.
I looked on the Naked Bible website and didn't see anything mentioning Gordon. Can you help narrow down that resource? Thanks.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Jeremiah said:
When I open the resource it seems it only navigates by chapter (Bible works had this flaw as well).
The resource doesn’t have the additional audio sync markers which would support reading along at the verse or word level.
You could try posting a suggestion at the feedback site: https://feedback.faithlife.com/
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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David Paul said:
I don't particularly think Nehemia is a charlatan, rather, he is just wrong about this topic.
Well on the one hand he claims to have proofread Ezekiel yet he either knowingly witholds the fact that אדני is written without a cholem in that entire scroll or he truly does not know it. I've taught Hebrew at the graduate level before and this guy says things that are simply absolutely untrue grammatically very very often. When the videos I mentioned critical of Gordon were sent to me I initially delayed watching any of them for a couple of weeks because I thought they were Gordon himself teaching and I just can't stomache the half-truths any more.
So when I labelled him a charlatan, I was actually being kind (assuming that he does not actually know the tanakhit & masorah on the level he claims I wanted to avoid the l**r title. The resource I'm sharing is for those in the know grammatically who don't want to waste their time sifting through his videos to dissect them; someone has done it for us
I reviewed videos 5,6,7 now from the Hebrew Gospels channel on youtube. You asked about which naked bible podcast sorry I don't remember, it was a year or two ago. I don't think Heisser mentioned Gordon's name directly, instead he alluded to the guy's over-excitement about supposedly having found the divine name... there's only one person well-known for this over-exaggeration of ignoring the masorah (invented ironically largely by karaites). Heiser wryly said something like, "what's he so excited about?" I may try to search for this if I have some time bliy neder (without a vow)
Regarding Gordon being a native speaker, I don't think this is accurate; his pronounciation doesn't sound Israeli. I think he's from Chicago according to his own claims; growing up in some Jewish sect doesn't make someone a native speaker nor does moving to Israel (done both those things and I'm not a native speaker
That said, most Israelis do not understand vast swaths of the bible due to how much has been lost as the language has been bastardized. I'm not claiming though than he knows nothing, only that he pretends to know a great more than he really does (or else it's diabolical and he is intentionally misleading people). If you have the time, check out some of those videos from the Hebrew gospels guys; you'll get it then. They do a great job exposing. They also explain the hebrew grammar issues for those who aren't deep in the language.
BTW it's great you learned some things from him Paul David, "the wise man learns from everyone" - Mishnah Avot 4
Dead languages are my mid-life crisis
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Awww OK. I think I remember their free app kitvei kodesh (search play store for bible society of israel) allows verse level playing. Maybe that database is more expensive to license then the by chapter one (or I'm wrong).
Thanks PetahChristian
Dead languages are my mid-life crisis
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Jeremiah said:
Regarding Gordon being a native speaker, I don't think this is accurate; his pronounciation doesn't sound Israeli. I think he's from Chicago according to his own claims; growing up in some Jewish sect doesn't make someone a native speaker nor does moving to Israel (done both those things and I'm not a native speaker
That said, most Israelis do not understand vast swaths of the bible due to how much has been lost as the language has been bastardized.By "native speaker", I only meant he's conversational due to learning the language at a very young age. His father was an orthodox rabbi, so I'm sure he was schooled early on. I wouldn't expect him to sound Israeli.
I have a year of university level Hebrew--I know enough to know what I don't know. I'll make some time to watch those vids. Thanks.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I made a free purchase of the Hebrew Audio Bible using my Logos account but it doesn't work. When I try to open it I get an error message saying I don't have permission.
Jeff
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