Is Faithlife self-supporting?

Does Faithlife use their own servers to host all of their content? Do our Logos resources reside on Faithlife owned servers or a third party? I'd be real upset if some third party decided they didn't like Faithlife and all of a sudden I can't access any of my Logos materials.

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Bradley Grainger (Logos)

We use a mix of cloud and private hosting. Unfortunately, if you're worried about third parties shutting us down, there's no such thing as having a truly independent service. Just for example, we're critically dependent on the following services provided by others:

Data center hosting, power, and air-conditioning
ISP bandwidth
Allocated IP address ranges
Content delivery network
Payment processor to charge customers' credit cards
Banking
Electricity

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147703#Comment_1147703

I forgot some [:)]

Domain registrars
DNS providers
TLS & code-signing certificate providers
App Stores

Jerry Bush

Does Faithlife use their own servers to host all of their content? Do our Logos resources reside on Faithlife owned servers or a third party? I'd be real upset if some third party decided they didn't like Faithlife and all of a sudden I can't access any of my Logos materials.

I have no inside knowledge here, but it seems like I heard that the content is on AWS. Plus - and my memory on when this happened is fuzzy - I remember once when AWS was having serious problems one day for a few hours, Logos was misbehaving as well.

Take that with one-half a grain of salt.

SineNomine

I'd be real upset if some third party decided they didn't like Faithlife and all of a sudden I can't access any of my Logos materials.

Let's suppose the absolute worst-case of scenario of every single external service provider to Faithlife suddenly blocking/blacklisting them tomorrow. Permanently.

You'd still have indefinite access to everything already downloaded on your laptop(s), desktop(s), and mobile device(s). With virtual machines and various other relevant technologies, you could run your existing desktop installation(s) for a very, very long time.

Donnie Hale

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147712#Comment_1147712

Domain registrars

DNS providers

TLS & code-signing certificate providers

App Stores

Operating system
Compiler tool chain
Framework
Everything hardware-related

Obviously, the list goes on. If a provider of any of these is so inclined as to refuse to provide / license, there will be an impact.

-Donnie

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147727#Comment_1147727

And, folks, Faithlife is located on the West Coast which the next BIG earthquake is going to bury under the sea.!! Yes, I'm joking. It is good to be aware of the outages that can affect you - especially for things like Proclaim and the preaching mode of Sermon/Homily. In fact, I think it is wise to have some basic plans as to how to adjust your services to a variety of potential disasters. Good initial question, ReformedPilgrim.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147767#Comment_1147767

It is good to be aware of the outages that can affect you - especially for things like Proclaim and the preaching mode of Sermon/Homily.

True - but neither Proclaim nor preaching mode for Sermon / Homily (on mobile) require an active Internet connection to function.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147779#Comment_1147779

True - but neither Proclaim nor preaching mode for Sermon / Homily (on mobile) require an active Internet connection to function.

True ... but walk into church to set up for 5:45 Mass on Saturday and (a) find the sound system is out or (b) the electricity is out ... done both, first was easier than the second. Then there was the Ash Wednesday noon service where the priests got plastered ... literally as the earthquake shook the plaster ceiling.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147767#Comment_1147767

And, folks, Faithlife is located on the West Coast which the next BIG earthquake is going to bury under the sea.

I seem to remember something about them having servers and such somewhere in the States that's not on the West Coast, but I forget exactly where.

I think it is wise to have some basic plans as to how to adjust your services to a variety of potential disasters. Good initial question, ReformedPilgrim.

Seconded on both points.

Tony Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147782#Comment_1147782

I'm not smart enough tech-wise to think through everything mentioned above, but I had a simpler and similar thought. The day may/will come when what we believe (and for example a conservative commentary or sermon series on Romans 1) will be called hateful. And while electronic books and software are wonderful, what if the tech companies decided that it was in their best interest to no longer sale/support/host/etc them? I imagine it like Fahrenheit 451 in the snap of a finger.

I obviously don’t like bad stuff on the internet. But I also don't like something like a sweeping mass censorship because someone does something I don’t agree with or might not like. Sorta diff topic, but when I was a kid my stepdad shot my mother in the head and killed her. I found her. But never in my life have I once thought guns or certain types of guns should be illegal. Similar to this week's news, I don't like the thought of one tech company deciding who is the current bad man, because then the other tech companies get pressured and before you know it an account goes from online, banned on multiple platforms in a few days time.

I fear that one day it will be popular to ban the theology I like to read on the technology I like to use.

David A Egolf

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147726#Comment_1147726

You'd still have indefinite access to everything already downloaded on your laptop(s), desktop(s), and mobile device(s). With virtual machines and various other relevant technologies, you could run your existing desktop installation(s) for a very, very long time.

Mobile devices is where we might have the most problem. Several years ago, it was common practice to severely limit the number of resources downloaded to mobile devices.

I did an experiment on one mobile device and downloaded at least one full commentary series. The resulting performance was terrible.

Have things improved? Was the poor performance due to employing a large percentage of the storage? Because one can get much larger devices, now.

I really like reading on my iPad, but I currently do not keep many resources downloaded in the expectation that I will be able to download, at will.

Josh Hunt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147767#Comment_1147767

And, folks, Faithlife is located on the West Coast which the next BIG earthquake is going to bury under the sea.!! Yes, I'm joking. It is good to be aware of the outages that can affect you - especially for things like Proclaim and the preaching mode of Sermon/Homily. In fact, I think it is wise to have some basic plans as to how to adjust your services to a variety of potential disasters. Good initial question, ReformedPilgrim.

Matthew 24:6 (NIV) see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147861#Comment_1147861

Have things improved? Was the poor performance due to employing a large percentage of the storage? Because one can get much larger devices, now.

I gather that things have improved. There are definitely a number of forum users who now have hundreds/thousands of resources on their devices.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147786#Comment_1147786

And, folks, Faithlife is located on the West Coast which the next BIG earthquake is going to bury under the sea.

I seem to remember something about them having servers and such somewhere in the States that's not on the West Coast, but I forget exactly where.

I think it is wise to have some basic plans as to how to adjust your services to a variety of potential disasters. Good initial question, ReformedPilgrim.

Seconded on both points.

As I recall there are two different regions with servers giving some redundancy. In theory, if Bellingham sinks into the sea, the back up servers located elsewhere would seamlessly pick up the slack.

It would be interesting for them to test this, on a monday morning. or whatever their lowest use time is.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148397#Comment_1148397

It would be interesting for them to test this, on a monday morning. or whatever their lowest use time is.

The company that my employer used to backup servers required that we test every six months that we could switch seamlessly. I suspect that Faithlife tests on a regular basis. It should be (nearly) invisible to the users.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148406#Comment_1148406

With the recent "attack" on conservatives by the big tech companies... this discussion is interesting...

I wonder how long it will be that people calling themselves "Believers" or "Christians" ... will be allowed to talk/discuss or share their faith over "Big Tech" companies part of the internet?

Will we be labeled as "Hate Mongers" for teaching Romans 1:27-32?

Will we be labeled as "Hate instigators" for teaching against some demonic worship?

And once we are labeled as such... would it follow that FaithLife is promoting all this "hate" by allowing people like us to use their programs to develop our lessons of "hate"??? Tell me again, what happened to Parler?

The recent events that shut down President Trump... is an eye opening of huge proportions!

imho.

Greg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1147767#Comment_1147767

MJ,

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/07/20/the-really-big-one

It won't be pretty when it happens.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148728#Comment_1148728

With the recent "attack" on conservatives by the big tech companies... this discussion is interesting...

1. Some of us don't believe there has been an attack

2. Some of us don't see how this relates to Faithlife software and its use

i.e. a gentle reminder of the guidelines not because there is a problem but because it's skating on the edge and could incite other forum members to cross the line.

Christopher Bucklin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148839#Comment_1148839

2. Some of us don't see how this relates to Faithlife software and its use

It relates because of Parler. In a single night, this platform was completely taken out, rendered utterly useless, because of politics, and Parler's dependence on services like Amazon. This thread is actually extremely important, and I'm interested in faithlife speaking up about this. I think anyone who takes biblical prophecy seriously has to entertain the idea that this kind of censorship, this kind of intolerance towards Christians, will eventually happen. One day, faithlife as we know it will not be allowed to exist.

I'd be interested in ways to back up my local library onto a flash drive. Heck, I'd be interested in how we can install logos to remote drives so that it can run completely independent of a local instalation. Can we do this? In the event faithlife goes down, and our local computer goes down too?

Kiyah

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148851#Comment_1148851

It relates because of Parler.

this kind of intolerance towards Christians

Parler was not a Christian site and was not shut down for being Christian. That's all I'll say because I'm trying not to violate forum guidelines.

MWW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148839#Comment_1148839

2. Some of us don't see how this relates to Faithlife software and its use

I think it absolutely relates to Faithlife software as Faithlife is fundamentally Bible software, and in today's "cancel culture" we could be moving toward laws being passed that identify and ban the Bible as hate literature. I am sure that I own some Faithlife Resources, especially some of the classical works, that some people or groups would identify as hate literature.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148894#Comment_1148894

Please respect those of us who fail to share your political views even when wrapped in religious language. Faithlife is not the platform for such discussions. If you don't see why for your own behavior, consider it your responsibility to not lead others into saying what does not belong here.

MWW

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148899#Comment_1148899

Please respect those of us who fail to share your political views

My thoughts precisely.

Victor Mendoza

Christopher Bucklin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148882#Comment_1148882

It relates because of Parler.

this kind of intolerance towards Christians

Parler was not a Christian site and was not shut down for being Christian. That's all I'll say because I'm trying not to violate forum guidelines.

I'd respectfully ask that you not cut and paste my comments out of context to make it look like I am saying something that I did not say. Nowhere did I state that Parler was Christian site, nor did I state that they were shut down for being Christian. The point being made is that Parler was a seemingly independent company that was rendered useless because of its dependence on other companies which seem to be growing in their censorship of things which they declare to be "controversial". I'll define controversial in a broad sense here, as something which possesses content which some find to be objectionable.

Likewise, Logos, and the Bible itself, can be seen as controversial in that they 'possess content which some find to be objectionable'. The question of this thread is, to what degree is faithlife dependant on external platforms which have, in the recent past, censored material which they have found to be controversial? This is a valid question, and one which does not have to entail any political affiliation.

Please note that the premises I have put forth here are simply that:

1. The Bible contains things which some find to be objectionable, and

2. Recently, some companies have stopped providing services to platforms which they have deemed to contain objectionable things.

I don't see either of these two statements as political, or devisive, or disrespectful to others.

The future and independence of faithlife is an apolitical issue, and one which seems wholly appriate for these forums.

Greg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148910#Comment_1148910

The future and independence of faithlife is an apolitical issue, and one which seems wholly appriate for these forums.

I agree with your concerns, as they are highly relevant in our digital world.

Amazon has not only refused to sell digital books, but have also removed them from user's devices.

This is one of the major downsides to digital material licensed to the user. Its only "ours" as long as some corporation say its ours. This holds true for Faithlife too. Thankfully we have excellent leadership that heavily supports ownership of the content we purchase.

But, as has been pointed out here, what about those non-Christian corporations who may not like the content sold here but hosted on their servers? Or, what if some day in the future Faithlife comes on hard times and gets sold to a competitor who isn't as concerned with true ownership as Bob is? What can be given digitally can be taken away, with little recurse on our part.

Physical books have shared the same fate, but its generally a lot harder to go door to door and confiscate contraband material. Wouldn't be the first time its happened, if it happens again.

Greg

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148839#Comment_1148839

1. Some of us don't believe there has been an attack

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

- Martin Niemöller

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148925#Comment_1148925

1. Some of us don't believe there has been an attack

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

- Martin Niemöller

Thus spoke the prophet Q....in his drop

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148910#Comment_1148910

The question of this thread is, to what degree is faithlife dependant on external platforms

I agree this is a valid concern.

I believe this was answered in my initial replies: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/198041/1147703.aspx#1147703

I'm happy to discuss the technical nature of our dependency on third-party vendors or whether Faithlife is violating any vendor's Acceptable Use Policy such that our contract would be terminated (answer: no), but I believe anything beyond that is off-topic for these forums, so please keep future discussion focused on the core issue.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1149002#Comment_1149002

Regardless of your politics the deplatforming of Parler (justified or unfair) mean s companies should seriously consider a backup model for hosting their content. Let's say suddenly people who host Logos content believe Blue is an evil color and Greek is almost as bad. So they flip a switch and you're content is no longer hosted. I'd hope there is a method that Logos and Faithlife have a plan to fix the problem even though it could happen next week or never at all. Just wise.

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148899#Comment_1148899

Please respect those of us who fail to share your political views even when wrapped in religious language. Faithlife is not the platform for such discussions. If you don't see why for your own behavior, consider it your responsibility to not lead others into saying what does not belong here.

I'm happy to discuss the technical nature of our dependency on third-party vendors or whether Faithlife is violating any vendor's Acceptable Use Policy such that our contract would be terminated (answer: no), but I believe anything beyond that is off-topic for these forums, so please keep future discussion focused on the core issue.

I would kindly disagree that this is not a valid concern. In China Bibles are forbidden, we are heading toward this direction - CCP. Users are having legitimate concerns and I completely understand them. I don't think it is right to tell them that they have no right to discuss those concerns here as it relates to the software itself. Also, some countries have and will have more restrictions and some countries are less.

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148894#Comment_1148894

2. Some of us don't see how this relates to Faithlife software and its use

I think it absolutely relates to Faithlife software as Faithlife is fundamentally Bible software, and in today's "cancel culture" we could be moving toward laws being passed that identify and ban the Bible as hate literature. I am sure that I own some Faithlife Resources, especially some of the classical works, that some people or groups would identify as hate literature.

[Y]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1149011#Comment_1149011

Let's say suddenly people who host Logos content believe Blue is an evil color and Greek is almost as bad. So they flip a switch and you're content is no longer hosted.

In thinking it through, a distinction needs to be made between hosting agreements (usually contractual) and the use of social media (usually at the host's discretion). Faithlife would lean towards the contractual side.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1149014#Comment_1149014

I don't think it is right to tell them that they have no right to discuss those concerns here as it relates to the software itself.

Let me be clear:

On-topic: "Does Faithlife use AWS?" "If AWS sent Faithlife a letter saying their account would be shut down in 24 hours, how would users access their books?" "What is Faithlife's disaster recovery plan?" "How do I install Logos offline?" "How do I use Logos completely offline so it's not dependent on any Internet services?" "What would be the impact if Internet giants turn off Faithlife servers?"

These are concrete questions about Faithlife's software and your use of it. They are welcome here.

Off-topic: "Tech companies are attacking conservatives" "America is becoming totalitarian" "Parler is the canary in the coal mine" "What if cancel culture cancels Faithlife?" "Do you think it's likely that Internet giants will turn off Faithlife servers?"

These are hypothetical, subjective, and/or controversial opinions that could generate endless debate and violate our forum guidelines: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx

They're important topics and they should be discussed, just not here. There are many other internet forums where these topics can be debated.

Please keep this thread on-topic or it will be locked.

Ronald Quick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1148851#Comment_1148851

I'd be interested in ways to back up my local library onto a flash drive. Heck, I'd be interested in how we can install logos to remote drives so that it can run completely independent of a local instalation. Can we do this? In the event faithlife goes down, and our local computer goes down too?

Logos can be backed up on an external hd and reinstalled without having to redownload and reindex everything. However, I do think that an internet connection is required to verify your account.

https://wiki.logos.com/Quick_Installation_onto_multiple_computers

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1149023#Comment_1149023

I don't think it is right to tell them that they have no right to discuss those concerns here as it relates to the software itself.

Let me be clear:

On-topic: "Does Faithlife use AWS?" "If AWS sent Faithlife a letter saying their account would be shut down in 24 hours, how would users access their books?" "What is Faithlife's disaster recovery plan?" "How do I install Logos offline?" "How do I use Logos completely offline so it's not dependent on any Internet services?"

These are concrete questions about Faithlife's software and your use of it. They are welcome here.

Off-topic: "Tech companies are attacking conservatives" "America is becoming totalitarian" "Parler is the canary in the coal mine" "What if cancel culture cancels Faithlife?" "What if Internet giants turn off Faithlife servers?"

These are hypothetical, subjective, and/or controversial opinions that could generate endless debate and violate our forum guidelines: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx

They're important topics and they should be discussed, just not here. There are many other internet forums where these topics can be debated.

Please keep this thread on-topic or it will be locked.

"What if Internet giants turn off Faithlife servers?" If this question is against forum guidelines, then questions like this which was raised before "what if Faithlife goes out of business" is hypothetical as well because it is clearly not a "concrete" and should violate forum guidelines. Bradley, maybe you have a bad day, but I don't think it is bad for the investor who spends thousands of dollars to raise some hypothetical questions. And I don't think threats are the best options to calm users down. I hope Faithlife has better standards

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1149039#Comment_1149039

"What if Internet giants turn off Faithlife servers?" If this question is against forum guidelines

You're right. That question--as written--is fine. I'll edit my examples. Thanks for pointing this out.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1149041#Comment_1149041

In WS... I believe the books, program, etc. that I had access to was downloaded on my pc.

I don't know how FL works, but I believe it is not the same. All the monies and such that I spend on FL can be gone in a flash if I somehow loose my connection to FL...

That is of concern to me.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1149053#Comment_1149053

I don't know how FL works, but I believe it is not the same. All the monies and such that I spend on FL can be gone in a flash if I somehow loose my connection to FL...

It is the same as WS. For FL, the program is downloaded on your computer, and your books are downloaded on your computer (by default).

You could still use Logos if your internet connection went out (possibly during a severe storm, or during planned upgrades that your Internet Service Provider may do to their equipment in your area.)

There is also an option to not download books, and keep them in the cloud. (Customers would probably only choose this if they did not have space on their computer for all of their Logos books.) This is the only way you'd lose access to those books if your connection to FL went away.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1149053#Comment_1149053

if I somehow loose my connection to FL...

When you have been on the FL forums for a while, you will learn we have several members actively watching that FL not forget that they support missionaries without access to the internet for months on end. It's one of many advantages of our international, multi-denominational community.

Bernhard

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1149014#Comment_1149014

In China Bibles are forbidden, we are heading toward this direction - CCP.

Actually - that is not true. As with everything in China, the situation is complicated, but as it stands, this statement is wrong.

In reality, the biggest printing press printing Bibles worldwide is located in Nanjing, China. It is not only printing Bibles for the Chinese market, but for many other countries as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amity_Foundation#:~:text=The%20Amity%20Printing%20Company%20(APC%2C%20Chinese%3A%20%E7%88%B1%E5%BE%B7%E5%8D%B0%E5%88%B7,a%20press%20donated%20by%20UBS.

The Chinese Bible translation that is printed there is the same that is used by Chinese Protestant Christians worldwide. In China it is used both by the government-sanctioned Three-Self-Church and the non-approved "house-churches". My only problem with that translation is that it is getting a bit outdated. They do print at least one other more recent translation, but there is not much demand for that. They also print Bibles for a couple of minority languages. Smartphone Bible apps and websites with the Bible are also available (and of course Logos can be accessed).

In China the Bible is considered material for internal use of the church and should be distributed only through church-internal channels. For a few years those rules were not enforced and the Bibel was available on all of the big internet shopping sites. A couple of years ago that changed, when the government told those sites to take all sales of Bibles and probably other church-published materials down. It can still be bought inside the official churches. Bible translation in further minority languages is definitely not something that the government will support.

There are a lot of quality Christian books published outside the official church and they can be freely traded. There are Christian book stores in many cities in China (but they might not be able to sell the Bible, at least not officially). Some topics can be hard to publish this way, as one needs approval for each book. With many things tightening in China in the last couple of years, it also getting harder to get that approval.

Overall, it is certainly true that religious freedom is limited in China - but the situation is sometimes better and certainly more complicated than is often assumed in the West. Things are also constantly changing and depend a lot on local leadership - the general direction for the last 3 years or so has definitely been for the worst. At the same time, there is a vibrant church in China that is standing on its own feet.