Christian Family Base Packages - now available!

Let me make sure I understand this correctly. If I purchase Christian Family Library level 1 with six licenses, it means I get all the resources in that Library for six family members.  But since I already have an account, they will also get access to all the resources I currently own?

In general I am excited about a move in this direction! Thinking both about the big picture and longer term about the value for my family, I have some questions comments and some suggestions.

-It was indicated that each family member would not have access to resources I already own, on the flip side would if my family members create a stand alone account later, will each family member have access to the these family resources in their own personal accounts permanently?

 
-Can individual resources be purchased to add to the family package?  

-If not I would much rather be able to find a value purchase for individual resources.

-Highly suggest a tiered approach in pricing in terms of the number of licenses. A family of 6 may find value when a family of 2 or 3 may not so much. 

-Suggest adding NIV and/or NLT to packages as in my experience this is what most of the youth groups I have communicated with use and would be of a benefit for children.   

-I understand it has been decided that there is no discount for Family package if I already own almost all of the resources in a package. I encourage Faithlife/Logos to rethink this. To not receive any existing value even though I have spent $1,000’s vs a family first starting with this without anyone owning any of the resources paying the same price is a big negative to me.

Again I was very happy to see a move in this direction and encourage FL to continue. For what it is worth, for me personally although the idea of it was something I thought I would do, in the current iteration I will not move forward.

1Cor10:31 said:

Graham Criddle said:

Mark said:

But since I already have an account, they will also get access to all the resources I currently own?

No— the idea is you set up separate accounts for them and that you are all in the same Faithlife group.

That will give others in your family access to the resources in this package but not to the resource you currently own

I'm a bit confused Graham. I had emailed Logos in Jan 2019 about my spouse using the resources I own. Here is what they emailed me: "Since you are her spouse, you would be able to share your Logos account with your wife with no problem. However, keep in mind that since you are sharing license, whatever notes, highlights or changes she makes to the software on her computer will also be reflected on your software in your computer."

Thus what I have can be accessed by my spouse already. So what is new that Faithlife is doing? I am sorry I am not able to see the subtleties.

By the way, sharing resources with people living with you under the same roof (including my child) should be allowed. If I buy a book in hard copy, of course, my children and spouse can read the book. Why is it different with digital resources? Maybe, I don't understand copyright laws.

While I’d personally prefer an option to share resources on a group plan, I suspect the counter-analogy FL could for your example of a physical work  is “you family members can also use your Logos on your computer.”

Floyd Johnson said:

I looked at the new packages, but see little I would purchase for my family.  Sorry.

Yes, I had the same thought.

I think this model may be useful to people not yet heavily investing in Logos.  In my case, 5 of my children already have accounts since this was not available.  My wife does not have an account but wants one.  None of the packages and pricing seemed to thrill me. Each family, and child is different.  I would prefer a different family model.

Mark Smith said:

1Cor10:31">

I had emailed Logos in Jan 2019 about my spouse using the resources I own. Here is what they emailed me: "Since you are her spouse, you would be able to share your Logos account with your wife with no problem. However, keep in mind that since you are sharing license, whatever notes, highlights or changes she makes to the software on her computer will also be reflected on your software in your computer."

Thus what I have can be accessed by my spouse already. So what is new that Faithlife is doing? I am sorry I am not able to see the subtleties.

By the way, sharing resources with people living with you under the same roof (including my child) should be allowed. If I buy a book in hard copy, of course, my children and spouse can read the book. Why is it different with digital resources? Maybe, I don't understand copyright laws.

I don't represent Faithlife so don't have an official answer. In the past FL looked the other way when a spouse who was not employed by a religious institution used resources licensed to his/her spouse. In March 2019 FL updated the Terms of Service. The relevant section is this one (the highlighting is my own).

5. Rights and Access Privileges for LBS Licenses.

LBS Licenses may ONLY be used on devices owned by the licensee in whose name the LBS License is registered. Each LBS License is granted for use by one human user only, even where the LBS License is registered in the name of an institution such as a church. We reserve the right to monitor use of the Services subject to LBS Licenses to detect, prevent and disable excessive simultaneous logins on different devices indicating use of the Services by more than one human user. We do not offer site-licenses, shared licenses, co-op licenses, or library licenses.

I don't know that FL wants another discussion of the terms of service agreement (I imagine they do not), but currently the agreement excludes spouses from using their spouse's licensed Logos resources.

FL licenses most of their resources from other publishers. I imagine the Terms of Service agreement reflects the licensing agreements they have with their publishers. 

Your argument about paper books has been raised often, but seemingly to no avail. Publishers seem to treat digital resources differently that print resources. I can't say I am happy about everything in the User agreement, but that is the way it is.

Thanks Mark. That was helpful. The question is whether this Mar 2019 policy was changed compared to what was there earlier as of Jan 2019 when they responded to my email. If the language is exactly the same as of Jan 2019 and Mar 2019, then the definition of "one human user" includes spouse (as per my email correspondence) 

By the way, if one human user implies literally one person, they should sell resources at least half the cost of the print-version (assuming 2 people use the book), isn't it? I don't think they mean literally one person. Here is a hint. The agreement says "for use by one human user only, even where the LBS License is registered in the name of an institution such as a church." This tells me that Faithlife is worried about a church buying one license and then allowing all the staff to use that one license. That is not what they want, which makes perfect sense. My university cannot buy one license of Microsoft Office and let all faculty and staff use it because Microsoft has not priced Office that way because Office is bought both by individuals like me for Home use and my organizations. 

Maybe, I am all wrong and I am happy to hear what Faithlife has to say.

No dynamic pricing goes against FL’s long held commitment that you won’t have to pay for a resource twice. This is a deal breaker IMHO for a lot of existing customers and unless it’s a brand new customer puts me in the position of not being able to recommend this product.

FL is loosing the plot even further with not only deliberately dropping the standards on resource quality but now knowingly throwing aside this promise.

Daniel Motley (Faithlife) said:

Greg Dement said:

In general I am excited about a move in this direction! Thinking both about the big picture and longer term about the value for my family, I have some questions comments and some suggestions.

Glad to hear that!

Greg Dement said:

-It was indicated that each family member would not have access to resources I already own, on the flip side would if my family members create a stand alone account later, will each family member have access to the these family resources in their own personal accounts permanently?

 

Your family members will have to have their own accounts in order to receive the licenses for these packages. Once they create an account and are set up in the family group that you have selected to receive the licenses, they will then have access to a license to the package. And yes, they will have access permanently provided that they stay in that family group.

Greg Dement said:

-Can individual resources be purchased to add to the family package?  

-If not I would much rather be able to find a value purchase for individual resources.

 

Individual accounts can add additional resources to their own account without adding or removing from the accounts of the other members of the family group. So if someone purchased Grudem's Systematic Theology for themselves, it would not add or remove that item from anyone else in the family group's account. It would only add it to the person who purchased the resource.

Greg Dement said:

-Highly suggest a tiered approach in pricing in terms of the number of licenses. A family of 6 may find value when a family of 2 or 3 may not so much. 

 

As we continue to develop the line, we'll definitely find ways to bring better value to smaller family sizes!

Greg Dement said:

-Suggest adding NIV and/or NLT to packages as in my experience this is what most of the youth groups I have communicated with use and would be of a benefit for children.   

 

This is helpful, thank you!

Greg Dement said:

-I understand it has been decided that there is no discount for Family package if I already own almost all of the resources in a package. I encourage Faithlife/Logos to rethink this. To not receive any existing value even though I have spent $1,000’s vs a family first starting with this without anyone owning any of the resources paying the same price is a big negative to me.

 

Unfortunately, we do not have a way to offer dynamic pricing with this type of set-up. Hopefully in the future we will have a way to do so.

" rel="nofollow">Keep Smiling 4 Jesus said:

1Cor10:31">Thanks Mark. That was helpful. The question is whether this Mar 2019 policy was changed compared to what was there earlier as of Jan 2019 when they responded to my email.

Like Mark, I do not represent Faithlife. Official Faithlife Terms => https://faithlife.com/terms were last amended on 15 Mar 2019 so supersedes Jan 2019 email. Internet Web Archive shows substantial changes to https://faithlife.com/terms on 15 Mar 2019 compared with a historical capture on 20 Oct 2018 that did not number sections. New terms on 15 Mar 2019 specified "one human user" for Logos Bible Software Services (LBS) in Section 5 along with noting legal jurisdiction change to Delaware in Section 1:

Faithlife Terms">

1. General.

By establishing an individual User (defined below) account or registering a Community (defined below) at Faithlife.com, submitting an Order (defined below) or otherwise using any Faithlife (defined below) products or services (the “Services”), you certify that you have read, are authorized to agree to, on your own behalf, on behalf of your Community, or on behalf of a business, as applicable, and agree to be bound by these Faithlife Terms of Service (“Terms”). By entering into this agreement with Faithlife, LLC, a Delaware limited liability company (“Faithlife”), you represent and warrant that you are of legal age to form a binding contract with us. If you are under the legal age to form a binding contract then your parent, guardian or other legal representative must agree to these Terms on your behalf and you hereby represent and warrant that they have done so. In no event shall the Services be used by persons less than thirteen (13) years of age and the Services are not intended for use by such persons.

 

We may revise and update these Terms from time to time at our sole discretion. The date on which these Terms were last amended is shown above. All changes are effective immediately when we post them and apply to all access to and use of the Services thereafter. However, any changes to the dispute resolution provisions will not apply to any disputes for which the parties have actual notice before the date the change is posted. Your continued use of the Services following the posting of revised Terms means that you accept and agree to the changes. We encourage you to check this page each time you access the Services so you are aware of any changes, as they are binding on you.

 

For the purposes of these Terms, “User” means a person who:

1. establishes a Faithlife account for connecting and transacting with Faithlife as an individual consumer of Faithlife Services (examples: to purchase and use Logos Bible Software, watch Faithlife TV, or take a Mobile Ed course);
2. accesses any Faithlife Services pursuant to a license granted to a Community (examples: a church administrator who uses Faithlife Sites or creates a church group on Faithlife);
3. establishes a Faithlife account for connecting and transacting with their Community or accessing Community Services or resources (examples: to make a digital donation to their Community, post to the Community’s group, read a book shared with the Community, access a members only page on the Community’s website).
4. uses the Services of a Faithlife subsidiary, including but not limited to: Beacon Ads LLC, Faithlife SK LLC, and Church Tech Today LLC.

For the purposes of these Terms “Communities” means faith-based organizations, educational institutions, nonprofit entities, and any other organization that purchases or licenses any Services for use by such Community and its Users.

My unofficial user speculation is a family being a "Community" of users, may have been a preparatory step for Homeschool Families (free starter bundle in May 2019 with promise of future Christian Family Base Packages)

Keep Smiling

Unless you are a lawyer, it is pointless to try and infer what Faithlife means by their user agreement. I am no lawyer so I am not smart enough to try and split hairs. Instead, I’ll ask simple Yes/No questions to know what is and what is not allowed. I would like Faithlife to answer these questions. 

1. Did the policy on Mar 2019 change with respect to who is allowed to use the resources?

1a. Also, specifically, did it become restrictive in terms of the number of users who can use the resources?  

2. Today, Is my spouse allowed to use my Logos resources? (2 people use)?

I use Logos installed on my laptop, desktop at home, and desktop at work. Since there was mention somewhere in this thread about devices, let me ask the following 2 questions:

2a. Is my spouse allowed to use my Logos installed on my laptop while I am using Logos on my home desktop (2-people simultaneous use)?

2b. Is my spouse allowed to use my Logos installed on my laptop when I am NOT using Logos on my home desktop (2-people non-simultaneous use)?

3. If the answer to (1) is Yes, the answer to (1a) is Yes, and the answer to (2) is No (then 2a and 2b are moot ), then shouldn't my spouse be allowed to use resources purchased before Mar 2019 because, otherwise, it would be unethical to change agreement on us after we purchased the product in good faith?

Thanks

Greg Dement said:

RE: Spouses.

I am optimistic that FL in good faith stands by their communication to us customers by their reps.  In late Aug of 2020 before I began utilizing Logos and made a large purchase, I asked about my wife using Logos.  I am paraphrasing but the communication was that although their written policy states that it is for single person use, as long as my wife was not using it professionally they understand and make an exception by extending the courtesy for a spouse to be able to utilize for personal use.  I have spoken to more than one rep about this and the answer has been consistent.  Either reps are going rogue (maybe possible for one rep but not likely for multiple reps) and misleading or they are instructed to communicate this corporately and is a genuine courtesy extended that they will stand by.  

Again, I am optimistic and believe I can trust them in good faith. 

[Y]

Mike Binks said:

Greg Dement said:

I am paraphrasing but the communication was that although their written policy states that it is for single person use, as long as my wife was not using it professionally they understand and make an exception by extending the courtesy for a spouse to be able to utilize for personal use.

Bob is on record somewhere confirming this 'courtesy' to customers.

I object to the word "courtesy." Is it a courtesy that I am allowed to use my resources of all 3 devices that I use during a typical day: work desktop, home desktop, laptop? I don't think so. Why? Because it all depends on what assumption Faithlife use to price their product. When the price of E-books is the same as print books, then it must be the case that they've assumed that the Ebooks will be shared as is the case with print books. Then to call sharing with spouse a "courtesy" is incorrect, and FL is just trying to win brownie points.

Mike Binks said:

Like many 'Terms and Conditions' Faithlife's have to protect the company against the edge cases.

Think, perhaps, of a user with seven wives. The poor bloke probably wouldn't have the energy to make use of his Logos library but his wives with only 0.14 of the housework would have a lot of time on their hands to milk the system.

I'm assuming you meant 0.125 (= 1/8 and not 1/7) [:D]

Daniel Motley (Faithlife) said:

As always, this is a new area for us and we are definitely keeping our eyes and ears open to feedback to continue improving our offerings!

Please consider a family license.  One can purchase a package or anything they want and get a license for one user.  But for families, there could be an option to purchase a family license entitling family members who have not graduated from High School as well as spouse to have access to the library that was purchased by one family member. This license can be renewed every year similar to the FL Connect program. When a child graduates High school, the license is revoked. 

Just brainstorming and idea.

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

These licenses can be permanently assigned to any family member in your family group at any time (right away or years from now), and they'll keep them as perpetual licenses (even after they leave the group), which means future purchases will benefit from dynamic pricing.

Thank you for clarifying!

Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:

Rather than waiting for this more ideal solution, we wanted to keep advancing what we do to serve families who are looking to get everyone equipped with their own copy of Logos and raise up the next generation of serious Bible students. And bulk purchasing and license pooling are compatible and complementary solutions that can build on each other, so starting with one now doesn't preclude the other later.

[Y]

Now... when do we get a Verbum edition? [:)]

Mark Smith said:

Daniel Motley (Faithlife) said:

To learn more or to purchase, check out our Christian Family packages page.

No features or datasets are listed or discussed. Are some provided?

Although this thread announces "Base Packages", it doesn't actually link to any base packages, and I can't find any by other means.

The webpage strangely links the the Christian Family Libraries, but ignores the Christian Family Feature Set.

Note that, unlike the PDPs for the individual Libraries, the PDP for the Feature Set allows prospective purchasers to buy the product in question. The Library PDPs simply return "This product is only available for purchase in one of the collections below." That statement is false; there are no "collections below" in the normal sense, and there are no "collections below" in which the Libraries are found in any sense.

Dave Hooton said:

1Cor10:31"> I would like Faithlife to answer these questions. 

I doubt that is going to happen, as with similar questions in the past.

1Cor10:31">

1. Did the policy on Mar 2019 change with respect to who is allowed to use the resources?

1a. Also, specifically, did it become restrictive in terms of the number of users who can use the resources?  

3.  ...shouldn't my spouse be allowed to use resources purchased before Mar 2019 because, otherwise, it would be unethical to change agreement on us after we purchased the product in good faith?

The FAQ page for EULA (the previous Terms were called EULA) states: [quote]The EULA is the license every user agrees to when he or she installs a copy of Logos Bible Software. In essence, the EULA says the software can be used by one user on multiple devices. Your base package is yours for your own personal use and can be used on your PC, Mac, iPad, iPhone, Android, and other devices at home or at work.

And the 2019 Terms of Service states: [quote]We may revise and update these Terms from time to time at our sole discretion

So any "good faith" (in your context) would only apply to the guarantee of return within 30 days if not satisfied (also on the FAQ page).

I'm sorry I don't see where you answered my question 

1. Did the policy on Mar 2019 change with respect to who is allowed to use the resources?

You say:

And the 2019 Terms of Service states: [quote]We may revise and update these Terms from time to time at our sole discretion

You are perfectly allowed to revise and update, but that cannot be applied retroactively.

If I bought a car that had a 10-year warranty and the next year the car manufactures says the warranty is only for 1 year, it doesn't apply to the car that has already been bought.

Daniel Motley (Faithlife) said:

SineNomine said:

Thank you for clarifying that.

Why does https://www.logos.com/christian-family refer and link only to Libraries, rather than to Base Packages and/or the (presently) hidden Feature Set? Is that also a technical difficulty?

Thank you for the error report, it looks like it only affected Level 1 and I have fixed that. Please let me know if you continue to see an error!

All levels seem to be working as expected now, complete with links to actually buying in. [Y]

Daniel Motley (Faithlife) said:

With five levels to choose from, there's a package to fit every family's study needs.

Now that the PDPs are set up correctly, the level that seems most attractive to me is Level 5. It includes six licenses for the Bronze Feature Set, and at the Library-only level, it includes six licenses for the Encyclopaedia Britannica Collection at a cost of only $50 USD more than said collection at regular price for a single license.

I can see some families, especially homeschooling ones, quite appreciating the above, whether or not they place any value on any of the other resources that it includes, such as a variety of Protestant Bibles (and two editions of the Tanakh), some commentary sets that on the whole will probably be most interesting to lay evangelicals, enough general Bible-related and other reference works to start off with, The Imitation of Christ, a bit of Greek and Hebrew stuff, two sets of the Apostolic Fathers, St. Augustine's Confessions, the eleven-volume G. K. Chesterton Collection, and a bunch of other books that might be interesting to some people (especially if Calvinists).

All in all, not a bad first stab (I think) at FL's apparent core target audience for these packages: families of anglophone American lay evangelical Protestants.

Bodes well for a future Verbum edition *cough*.

Dave Hooton said:

Incorrect! The March 2019 update is much more formal in its expression of the Terms, but it retained the single (one) user stipulation of the earlier Terms (then called EULA). I don't have a copy of that EULA, so I quoted a summary from the FAQ page. They both express the legal position.

I've tried to be patient because I understand people are wired and endowed differently. But there is only so much a man can take of this consistently BS logic. I am tired of it.  

The FAQ is as of today, it is not before the EULA was amended in Mar 2019. So you still can't prove whether anything changed as of Mar 2019. 

Dave Hooton said:

Whilst that may be consistent with what Mark stated, note that he also said "In the past FL looked the other way" and pointed to the (unchanged) legal position in the 2019 update.

Do you even read before posting?FL didn't look the other way was the point I was making with my previous post. So let me repeat one more time. what I said in my previous post. Maybe, you will read this time.

Let me repeat the email I got from Faithlife verbatim: "Since you are her spouse, you would be able to share your Logos account with your wife with no problem. However, keep in mind that since you are sharing license, whatever notes, highlights or changes she makes to the software on her computer will also be reflected on your software in your computer."

Does this email look like "Faithlife looked the other way" as Mark claims? Absolutely not. It is clear that Faithlife expected family to share resources.

Dave Hooton said:

You can continue to justify your position based on the email, but it isn't the legal position (though it may be useful to prevent you being prosecuted!).

Get off your self-righteous horse. Again, do you read? I've said "My wife has NEVER EVER used Logos. I’ve been trying to suck her into it, but have not been successful thus far. Faithlife can look up my account and confirm that."

If you'll ever get to know my theology, you'll understand why it is in your own self-interests to be ethical. 

Also, check out Carson Wentz and his philosophy: #AO1