NAS 2020 and the Importance of Communicating with the Customer
I hope I am not misunderstood as being angry or nasty. That is not my intent. I do however have some constructive criticism.
People are asking my opinion of the NASB 2020, and I have to say that I all I know is from reviews. I have not actually read the version as of yet. It is a fact however that if I owned other software I would already be using it.
About a month or two ago I emailed customer service about the NASB 2020. I mentioned that it seemed like the NASB 2020 was taking a long time in production, and asked if the person had any idea when it would be coming out. The answer in essence was "Sorry you are disappointed (although I didn't say that I was...I simply asked the question). It takes a long time to do a version (although as I mentioned, a competitor has theirs out), and we have no idea when it will be out." I found myself slinking away from the exchange with the thought in my mind, "Sorry that I asked!"
Now I really can't speak to the length of time that it takes to produce this module, but I can speak to one very important element, and that is COMMUNICATION with the customer. Imagine ordering a sofa in 2020 to be delivered in 2021. You are still waiting and it's almost April 2021. There may be a great reason for the delay, but the answer you get from the company is "It is in production and will be done when it's done." You ask them for an idea when you might have it and they don't even have an indefinite answer, such as "a couple more months." What might you think? How might you feel? Wouldn't it be a reasonable thing for the company to communicate with its customers about the situation and let them know how far into production they are, and a ball park figure of when the sofa will be completed? Also, communicating with you what the hold up might be.
I am not trying to cause a stir, but in the same way as the illustration, is it not reasonable to communicate something with the customer about when the version will be completed...even if it is a ball park figure? Again, the purpose of this is to encourage COMMUNICATION with the customer. If I have missed something, please point it out. Thank-you!
Sincerely,
Bob Payne
Comments
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Robert Payne said:
Imagine ordering a sofa in 2020 to be delivered in 2021. You are still waiting and it's almost April 2021. There may be a great reason for the delay, but the answer you get from the company is "It is in production and will be done when it's done."
What am I missing? If my sofa was due in 2021, I wouldn't expect it at the beginning of the year ... it wouldn't occur to me to start wondering if it was coming until late November or early December.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I completely agree with this, and I’m glad you posted. Accordance has had the NASB 2020 out since late 2020, not long after the translation was released to the public. Logos, on the other hand, has had "In Production" on this product for months. This is not the first time, either. Logos seems to take forever to roll these things out. It’s quite frustrating, actually.
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MJ. Smith said:What am I missing? If my sofa was due in 2021, I wouldn't expect it at the beginning of the year ... it wouldn't occur to me to start wondering if it was coming until late November or early December.
So, you are OK with no communication until the end of the year? Sorry, not me.
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Cheryl Sexton said:
I completely agree with this, and I’m glad you posted. Accordance has had the NASB 2020 out since late 2020, not long after the translation was released to the public. Logos, on the other hand, has had "In Production" on this product for months. This is not the first time, either. Logos seems to take forever to roll these things out. It’s quite frustrating, actually.
Agree.
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To be fair, the other version is basically an ebook. Logos puts in a lot more effort to ensure all the tagging and milestones are accurate and in place.
Sure you can buy the little 125cc "moto" off alibaba for 300$. But it won't ever really compare to a Ducati Superleggera ($100k) superbike.
If transportation is the most important part (or biblical text) both will get you there.
Both logos and the other will have the text. But I prefer to wait for the ducati of bible software
. we have bought into logos for a reason, and it wasn't speed (though speed is nice). The reason is the extra things that Logos brings to the table. Things that require human beings to spend time manually adding tagging to the text so that it isn't just another ebook.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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abondservant said:
To be fair, the other version is basically an ebook. Logos puts in a lot more effort to ensure all the tagging and milestones are accurate and in place.
Sure you can buy the little 125cc "moto" off alibaba for 300$. But it won't ever really compare to a Ducati Superleggera ($100k) superbike.
If transportation is the most important part (or biblical text) both will get you there.
Both logos and the other will have the text. But I prefer to wait for the ducati of bible software. we have bought into logos for a reason, and it wasn't speed (though speed is nice). The reason is the extra things that Logos brings to the table. Things that require human beings to spend time manually adding tagging to the text so that it isn't just another ebook.Again, the point of my post is the lack of communication with the customer.
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Robert Payne said:
Again, the point of my post is the lack of communication with the customer.
This is a significant release, it's not just another compilations of essay's or the lastest topical study put out by a scholar. The lack of communicaiton is deafening with this resource.
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abondservant said:
To be fair, the other version is basically an ebook. Logos puts in a lot more effort to ensure all the tagging and milestones are accurate and in place.
Nope you are not being fari to Accordance. They have put out much more than an ebook. It is tagged with Strongs and contains a full set of full tagged cross referenes. You are talking about Reverse Interlinear features. FL could have easily created the bible as Accordance has done and provided the RI at a later date when it was ready with any other addtional tagging so that users could begin working with the text alongside previous NASB versions and other translations in tools such as text comparision. FL choose not to do this. FL are choosing to to communciate with customers. They are fair game for criticism of their choices. You are happy, that's great, but other customers are not happy and they are free to highlight their disappointment. And while your waiting, waiting, wating I am using NASB20 in Accordacne whenever I want to access the text and can do Word Studies and follow cross references, link it to commentaries and other resources, etc. It's definitely more than an ebook, its a funcitoning bible.
FL broke all the rules when they went and dumped all the Wordsearch books as eBooks in everyone's librarys so personally I don't see it would be a big issue for them to put a fully index NASB20 text out now and the provide us with enhancements later when they are ready. To say we should sit quitely and expect no communcaiton until they are ready is ridiculous. The simple truth is FL need to be more in touch with the competiton on relasess of resources like this rather than sitting back and saying nothing to their customers.
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DIsciple II said:
It is tagged with Strongs
I have to laugh at myself for my reaction to your post ... I consider tagging with Strong's a negative not a positive ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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A false claim was made that Accordance was only offering an e-Book when that is not true.
if you think you have responded in an appropriate way then you are revealing a lot about yourself Martha.
Despite your efforts the simple fact is FL has dropped the ball on this and if you think their lack of communication is appropriate then next time you want to gst upset about FL not communicating about why your not seeing the features in Verbum you want then remember how you have responded to the OP. After all the logical thing would be to follow your own advice.
MJ. Smith said:DIsciple II said:It is tagged with Strongs
I have to laugh at myself for my reaction to your post ... I consider tagging with Strong's a negative not a positive ...
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DIsciple II said:
if you think you have responded in an appropriate way then you are revealing a lot about yourself Martha.
Good grief, Charlie Brown. If the ability to laugh at myself for responding to a small and insignificant element of a post rather than the thrust of the post, is inappropriate then I fear at my age, my inclination is to avoid your social circle. And how you got to
is bound to serve as an interesting conundrum given there was nothing about FL communication in my post. But I suspect a gentle shake of my head and throwing my hands in the air is the best way for me to communicate ... unfortunately, you can see neither the shake, the hands, nor the expression so I'm still subject to misinterpretation.DIsciple II said:their lack of communication is appropriate
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'm on the sidelines for this one as I don't really use the NASB at all, and I don't claim to speak for Faithlife.
I suspect that the huge diversion of effort to the Wordsearch resources has probably been one of the main factors behind the delay. Having observed the outcry over the Wordsearch resources being dropped as ebooks, I certainly don't blame FL for not issuing a restricted-functionality version of the NASB either. In the case of the Wordsearch resources I (as a non-Wordsearch user) was very clear on what they were doing, and it was well-communicated by FL, but the howls of protest and accusations of bad faith are only now beginning to subside as we're seeing full research editions landing at the rate of about a hundred at a time.
On the communication point I agree, it would have been helpful to issue some kind of communication as to what can and should be expected.
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GregW said:
In the case of the Wordsearch resources I (as a non-Wordsearch user) was very clear on what they were doing, and it was well-communicated by FL, but the howls of protest and accusations of bad faith are only now beginning to subside as we're seeing full research editions landing at the rate of about a hundred at a time.
There may be lessons to be learned about 'customer communitication' but unfortunately, with the Wordsearch transition, I would think that the lesson, probably not learned but reinforced, is 'that no good deed goes unpunished. [;)]
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Faithlife. Doesn't. Communicate.
They never promise "Such-and-such resource will be available on June 3rd at 3 am Pacific Daylight Savings Time."
They could drop the NAS 2020 tomorrow for all we know.
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Gregory Lawhorn said:
They never promise "Such-and-such resource will be available on June 3rd at 3 am Pacific Daylight Savings Time."
They could drop the NAS 2020 tomorrow for all we know.
Actually, they do provide ship dates, once they have them. See https://www.logos.com/search?limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe&filters=status-prepub_Status. Right now Logos.com shows specific shipping dates for ~150 resources and less specific dates for another ~200 of them.
I suggest that folk who are interested pay attention to https://www.logos.com/product/198302/the-new-american-standard-bible-2020-update, where a shipping date will eventually appear.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:Gregory Lawhorn said:
They never promise "Such-and-such resource will be available on June 3rd at 3 am Pacific Daylight Savings Time."
They could drop the NAS 2020 tomorrow for all we know.
Actually, they do provide ship dates, once they have them. See https://www.logos.com/search?limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe&filters=status-prepub_Status. Right now Logos.com shows specific shipping dates for ~150 resources and less specific dates for another ~200 of them.
I suggest that folk who are interested pay attention to https://www.logos.com/product/198302/the-new-american-standard-bible-2020-update, where a shipping date will eventually appear.
Right. I think most of us are aware of that, but as Cheryl wrote, "Logos, on the other hand, has had 'In Production' on this product for months." Again, not really helpful, and communicates nothing.
I'm really not trying to cause trouble, I just want them to communicate better. Unfortunately with this topic there is more heat than light. If it's going to be the NASB 2222, please let us know.
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Robert, I understand your frustration and have felt exactly the same way at times. I have even ordered some resources before that gave a "specific" release date only to have that date continually extended. Thinking about this and looking through the website there are just over 5,500 books Pre-Pub/In Production. I would imagine the time and resources that would be required to give continual approximations and updates would be substantial and the past business side of me can see why it is prohibitive. I don't use it so not certain it would help but I did see that they have an ability to sign up for Pre-Pub Updates that possibly could help.
All that said, I do think that with this being a major Bible translation update, that perhaps more priority could be given to communication on this.
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Thanks Greg.
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Robert Payne said:
I'm really not trying to cause trouble, I just want them to communicate better. Unfortunately with this topic there is more heat than light. If it's going to be the NASB 2222, please let us know.
I don't know that "not before x" is really something they can communicate on a PDP, and they may well not know themselves. I may be mistaken, but I think that when they themselves have an expected release date, they put it on the PDP. My own working assumption is that if the PDP doesn't show one, they don't have one to show.
Whatever they may or may not know, I hope someone who knows it and is able to communicate it happens to see this thread.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Me too! 😊
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Sent to CS since it seems like no one from Faithlife read this. We will see what happens.
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“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Thanks, SineNomine. Too bad this info wasn't sent to the customers... but at least it's information, and for that I will be thankful! 😊
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Robert,
You make good points with a good attitude. Faith Life would be wise to listen, especially in regard to the need for better communication.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Thanks, Mike.
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So much for late April. Maybe NASB 2022? [:S]
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Don’t forget the LSB. Though only out partially, it is also in the other Software
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That would indeed me another good one. Accordance has had NASB2020 out for some time now.
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I agree with you on the issue of communication; after all, how long would it take for someone at Faithlife to post a one-liner updating the status of their NASB2020 project? Not very long, I think.
I have no concerns at all over this, since Faithlife hasn't (yet) debited the price of the NASB2020 from my bank account. Meanwhile, I continue to read from my NASB2020 print edition... and on Olive Tree as well...
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Agreed. It's possible I don't fully understand the situation, but I personally find excuses this far out becoming less and less credible. Then again, all of this goes back to communication. NASB2020 in 2022?
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Robert Payne said:SineNomine said:Gregory Lawhorn said:
They never promise "Such-and-such resource will be available on June 3rd at 3 am Pacific Daylight Savings Time."
They could drop the NAS 2020 tomorrow for all we know.
Actually, they do provide ship dates, once they have them. See https://www.logos.com/search?limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe&filters=status-prepub_Status. Right now Logos.com shows specific shipping dates for ~150 resources and less specific dates for another ~200 of them.
I suggest that folk who are interested pay attention to https://www.logos.com/product/198302/the-new-american-standard-bible-2020-update, where a shipping date will eventually appear.
Right. I think most of us are aware of that, but as Cheryl wrote, "Logos, on the other hand, has had 'In Production' on this product for months." Again, not really helpful, and communicates nothing.
I'm really not trying to cause trouble, I just want them to communicate better. Unfortunately with this topic there is more heat than light. If it's going to be the NASB 2222, please let us know.
If you haven't been paying attention to the EEC and communication issue this would be a surprise to you. EEC is a flagship product from Lexham Press and trying to get communication from them has been fruitless. Faithlife connects everything together so naturally they are weak on communicating anything about the products coming out.
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Robert Payne said:
Agreed. It's possible I don't fully understand the situation, but I personally find excuses this far out becoming less and less credible. Then again, all of this goes back to communication. NASB2020 in 2022?
This is funny because I made a plan to read my top five bibles recently and NASB2020 will replace my NASB1995 so naturally I want to read it. I plan to read it in 2028 assuming I own it by then in my software.
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Matt Hamrick said:
NASB2020 will replace my NASB1995
While making this transition automatically is your choice, I would personally wait to compare them before relegating 95 to the "once used" bin. If you have any strength of appreciation for the 95, you may have some misgivings about the 20. While I sent about a dozen needed or hopeful edits to Lockman over as many years, there's a chance their slant toward supposed "better readability" may so color the text that I won't be able to enjoy those edits. Personally more hopeful about he LSB, but FL users are still twiddling their thumbs over that one as well.
NASB20? LSB?
[*-)]
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Schedule to ship 6/21/2021!!
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Just read it. Good news.
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David Paul said:
would personally wait to compare them before relegating 95 to the "once used" bin. If you have any strength of appreciation for the 95, you may have some misgivings about the 20.
My favorite study Bible is still the 1978 NASB. But sadly Logos did not update the resource to include full reverse interlinear features (only Strongs numbers from the resource in the old LLS). So I have adjusted to using the 1995 NASB. It will be interesting to compare the "New-New-New American Standard Bible" to the other editions.
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I've been anxiously waiting for this to finally get uploaded into my library but when I check the Logos website it still says ships 6/21/2021. Anyone have luck getting it or does Logos send an email or notification letting us know it's available for download? I've already pre-ordered it months ago.
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Ryan said:
I've been anxiously waiting for this to finally get uploaded into my library but when I check the Logos website it still says ships 6/21/2021. Anyone have luck getting it or does Logos send an email or notification letting us know it's available for download? I've already pre-ordered it months ago.
You will get an email notification telling you it is ready to download. Since I live in the Eastern Time Zone, most of my emails come between 8 pm and 11 pm. I will just download in the morning.
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Ryan said:
I've been anxiously waiting for this to finally get uploaded into my library but when I check the Logos website it still says ships 6/21/2021.
Typically these things get released in the afternoon... in Bellingham (West Coast time).
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You can enter "Update Now" in the Go box to force Logos to download any updates that are available. But I don't expect it until the end of the day.
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I'm guessing part of the problem is that Logos acquired WordSearch last year and had thousands of books they had to rush into production. That pushed everything back I would guess.
I learned a long time ago to just order things and forget about them. Not perfect, but take what I can get.
I read a bit about the 2020 and decided to continue with my 95. I didn't like what I read about gender issues. If you have the 95, what do you need the 2020 for? Same Bible.
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Logos servers seem slow this evening, but the NASB 2020 has now downloaded to my laptop and it is indexing. Looking forward to running the Text Comparison tool in Logos. [:D]
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Harry Hahne said:
Looking forward to running the Text Comparison tool in Logos.
I too was interested in this and have been comparing the 3 NASB versions. I'm very thankful for so many excellent tools in Logos.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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I have downloaded the NASB 2020, but it is lacking some features and Visual Filters.
For example, it does not have the Factbook button, nor the interlinear button.
Is that what others are experiencing?
Maybe that stuff will come later?
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The NASB just released is just the base text. It has not yet been announced if there will be a reverse interlinear but I'm optimistic that it will come later.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Better communication requires either shifting staff from perhaps more important tasks or hiring staff which will increase their costs.
Make the observations and then let them do what they do.
NASB is hardly a resource that the Christian world has been waiting for with bated breath. From what I've read, I'll stick to NASB95.
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I was under the impression that the delay in release was due to the Logos team tagging the resource but I stand corrected. Any idea how long that process usually takes?
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abondservant said:
To be fair, the other version is basically an ebook. Logos puts in a lot more effort to ensure all the tagging and milestones are accurate and in place.
Well this didn't age well did it? :-) Sorry, couldn't resist.
Logos released basically an ebook while the other one is a fully tagged book and has been from the beginning. This release is an embarrassment for Logos.
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Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
No reverse interlinear is mentioned on the product page.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Watson said:
I have downloaded the NASB 2020, but it is lacking some features and Visual Filters.
Could you give more information on this? What Visual Filters is it lacking. I'm not able to repo this.
Kevin A. Purcell said:Logos released basically an ebook
I'm not following this comment. What do you mean by this?
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