Well-known theologians/pastors with no formal seminary training
I'm interested in knowing the names of some well-known theologians/pastors/writers...with no formal seminary training (I have no idea when the first seminary opened) and their backgrounds. The denomination doesn't matter to me at all. If I am not mistaken, Charles Spurgeon, didn't get any special training. The reason that I ask about their background is to see how their experience played a role in connecting dots from the Bible.
If I didn't attend my Men's group but had only a transcript of the discussions with all the speaker identifiers removed, I could still tell who made what comment. This is because we have people with different backgrounds (lawyer, entrepreneur, dance teacher, car repair guy...) and each one has their own angle given their experiences. So it is not tough to predict.
I read from a Faithlife blog that Calvin was a lawyer and, thus, organizing came naturally. As a financial economist, I feel I can connect dots that others can't, simply because our eyes are trained to look for certain angles (example: benefit-cost) that others don't necessarily think of. The frame of reference (or prism or whatever fancy term is used today) is different based on our experience. Hence, I would like to know the background of these well-known Christian theologians/pastors/writers. It will also give a clue to their presuppositions, something everyone has but that we may be blind to. Thus, knowing the background helps understand why they say what they say.
Thanks everyone.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
Comments
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As you know, we like to 'discuss'.
Statistically, the better question would be, (1) who were their parents (perspective growing up), and (2) their close relatives (genetics). Statistical prediction.
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1Cor10:31 said:
, knowing the background helps understand why they say what they say.
D.L. Moody did not have any formal training, yet was not opposed to training because he founded a school. Billy Sunday was another revivalist from the late 19th/early 20th centuries, as I recall was a retired Baseball Player.
Modern era - do you want to poke the hornet's nest that is https://www.logos.com/search?query=Mark%20Driscol&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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DMB said:
As you know, we like to 'discuss'.
Statistically, the better question would be, (1) who were their parents (perspective growing up), and (2) their close relatives (genetics). Statistical prediction.
DMB: Nature vs Nurture is always interesting to me. Logical reasoning has something to do with genes (Nature). People with good logical reasoning skill can sift through the complex cause-effect relationships in the Bible to highlight truths that others can't see.
Of course, God-given nature could be developed/enhanced by nurturing. If people choose their professional career based on nurture-enhanced nature, they would be good in what they do professionally. And this experience is what I had in mind.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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David Thomas said:
D.L. Moody did not have any formal training, yet was not opposed to training because he founded a school. Billy Sunday was another revivalist from the late 19th/early 20th centuries, as I recall was a retired Baseball Player.
Moody is top shelf; thank you.
I found one book of Billy Sunday in Logos. Peeked inside and found a quote I really like: One hundred percent belief in the Christian religion is as necessary to a preacher as knowledge of mathematics is to an engineer. One of the outcomes of my musing over the question that has piqued my interests (why I believe what I believe) is to give certainty to my beliefs. If you asked my beliefs 5 years back, I could tell you what they were, but my confidence was never 100%. Now, I have 100% confidence in many of those beliefs. In some, the confidence went to 0% and were ejected!
David Thomas said:
Modern era - do you want to poke the hornet's nest that is https://www.logos.com/search?query=Mark%20Driscol&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe
In general, I don't like to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Every one of us is screwed up along some dimension, and we all could unearth some truths (which are all from God anyways) and, thus, contribute to society.
Let me also contribute by doing some simple googling:
https://www.challies.com/articles/is-seminary-really-necessary/: Mentions John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, and Martyn Lloyd-Jones; pretty good names. Haven't verified if true but Tim Challies is a well-respected blogger.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10:31 said:DMB said:
As you know, we like to 'discuss'.
Statistically, the better question would be, (1) who were their parents (perspective growing up), and (2) their close relatives (genetics). Statistical prediction.
DMB: Nature vs Nurture is always interesting to me. Logical reasoning has something to do with genes (Nature). People with good logical reasoning skill can sift through the complex cause-effect relationships in the Bible to highlight truths that others can't see.
Of course, God-given nature could be developed/enhanced by nurturing. If people choose their professional career based on nurture-enhanced nature, they would be good in what they do professionally. And this experience is what I had in mind.
Actually, visa viz your point, the Bible most often points to the father/son relationship (daughters not often traced). And so also, Bible scholars look to the Apostle Paul's father .... after his feet-of seminary. Tent making? Have you looked at Luther yet?
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1Cor10:31 said:
(I have no idea when the first seminary opened) and their backgrounds.
I believe the modern seminary arose around the time of the Council of Trent (mid-1500's) but in another sense they go back at least to Antioch and Alexandria in early church history.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DMB said:
Actually, visa viz your point, the Bible most often points to the father/son relationship (daughters not often traced). And so also, Bible scholars look to the Apostle Paul's father .... after his feet-of seminary. Tent making? Have you looked at Luther yet?
Thank you for pointing out Luther. I checked my library and I have lots of stuff on Luther - biography, his life, writings, commentaries, summary of his theology etc. I knew his Galatians commentary is famous. So I checked it out. Here is what he says in the preface: For the one doctrine which I have supremely at heart, is that of faith in Christ, from whom, through whom and unto whom all my theological thinking flows back and forth day and night.
It is clear from the above quote the thread that runs through Martin Luther's theology. That is what I am trying to infer from their experience. Because once you know the glue that holds a person's theology together, it is much easier to read their stuff.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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MJ. Smith said:
I believe the modern seminary arose around the time of the Council of Trent (mid-1500's) but in another sense they go back at least to Antioch and Alexandria in early church history.
Thank you MJ. I wouldn't have guessed 1500's for sure. So there must be plenty of non-seminarian theologians whose writings are well-known and respected.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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Billy Graham has a degree from Wheaton with a major in Anthropology. He also has a degree from a Bible College - but no seminary training.
Blessings,
FloydPastor-Patrick.blogspot.com
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1Cor10:31 said:
If I am not mistaken, Charles Spurgeon, didn't get any special training.
Spurgeon described John Gill (who read lots of books) => The Works of John Gill (19 vols.) in Lectures to My Students:
A very distinguished place is due to Dr. Gill.* Beyond all controversy, Gill was one of the most able Hebraists of his day, and in other matters no mean proficient. When an opponent in controversy had ventured to call him “a botcher in divinity,” the good doctor, being compelled to become a fool in glorying, gave such a list of his attainments as must have covered his accuser with confusion. His great work on the Holy Scriptures is greatly prized at the present day by the best authorities, which is conclusive evidence of its value, since the set of the current of theological thought is quite contrary to that of Dr. Gill. No one in these days is likely to be censured for his Arminianism, but most modern divines affect to sneer at anything a little too highly Calvinistic: however, amid the decadence of his own rigid system, and the disrepute of even more moderate Calvinism, Gill’s laurels as an expositor are still green. His ultraism is discarded, but his learning is respected: the world and the church take leave to question his dogmatism, but they both bow before his erudition. Probably no man since Gill’s days has at all equalled him in the matter of Rabbinical learning. Say what you will about that lore, it has its value: of course, a man has to rake among perfect dunghills and dust-heaps, but there are a few jewels which the world could not afford to miss. Gill was a master cinder-sifter among the Targums, the Talmuds, the Mishna, and the Gemara. Richly did he deserve the degree of which he said, “I never bought it, nor thought it, nor sought it.”
He was always at work; it is difficult to say when he slept, for he wrote 10,000 folio pages of theology. The portrait of him which belongs to this church, and hangs in my private vestry, and from which all the published portraits have been engraved, represents him after an interview with an Arminian gentleman, turning up his nose in a most expressive manner, as if he could not endure even the smell of free-will. In some such a vein he wrote his commentary. He hunts Arminianism throughout the whole of it. He is far from being so interesting and readable as Matthew Henry. He delivered his comments to his people from Sabbath to Sabbath, hence their peculiar mannerism. His frequent method of animadversion is, “This text does not mean this,” nobody ever thought it did; “It does not mean that,” only two or three heretics ever imagined it did; and again it does not mean a third thing, or a fourth, or a fifth, or a sixth absurdity; but at last he thinks it does mean so-and-so, and tells you so in a methodical, sermon-like manner. This is an easy method, gentlemen, of filling up the time, if you are ever short of heads for a sermon. Show your people firstly, secondly, and thirdly, what the text does not mean, and then afterwards you can go back and show them what it does mean. It may be thought, however, that one such a teacher is enough, and that what was tolerated from a learned doctor would be scouted in a student fresh from college. For good, sound, massive, sober sense in commenting, who can excel Gill? Very seldom does he allow himself to be run away with by imagination, except now and then when he tries to open up a parable, and finds a meaning in every circumstance and minute detail; or when he falls upon a text which is not congenial with his creed, and hacks and hews terribly to bring the word of God into a more systematic shape. Gill is the Coryphœus of hyper-Calvinism, but if his followers never went beyond their master, they would not go very far astray.
C. H. Spurgeon, Lectures to My Students: Commenting and Commentaries; Lectures Addressed to the Students of the Pastors’ College, Metropolitan Tabernacle., vol. 4 (New York: Sheldon & Company, 1876), 21–24.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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1Cor10:31 said:
I'm interested in knowing the names of some well-known theologians/pastors/writers...with no formal seminary training (I have no idea when the first seminary opened) and their backgrounds. The denomination doesn't matter to me at all. If I am not mistaken, Charles Spurgeon, didn't get any special training. The reason that I ask about their background is to see how their experience played a role in connecting dots from the Bible.
If I didn't attend my Men's group but had only a transcript of the discussions with all the speaker identifiers removed, I could still tell who made what comment. This is because we have people with different backgrounds (lawyer, entrepreneur, dance teacher, car repair guy...) and each one has their own angle given their experiences. So it is not tough to predict.
I read from a Faithlife blog that Calvin was a lawyer and, thus, organizing came naturally. As a financial economist, I feel I can connect dots that others can't, simply because our eyes are trained to look for certain angles (example: benefit-cost) that others don't necessarily think of. The frame of reference (or prism or whatever fancy term is used today) is different based on our experience. Hence, I would like to know the background of these well-known Christian theologians/pastors/writers. It will also give a clue to their presuppositions, something everyone has but that we may be blind to. Thus, knowing the background helps understand why they say what they say.
Thanks everyone.
Hi there - You might consider A.W. Tozer who was a self-educated pastor, writer and theologian. His ministry over 44 years was with the Christian and Missionary Alliance. His degrees were honorary only. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._W._Tozer
Faithlife has many of his books – and all are worth reading. See https://www.logos.com/search?query=Tozer&sortBy=Relevance&limit=30&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe Keep well Paul
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Not exactly what you're looking for, but Karl Barth never finished his doctorate, which is surprising considering the influence he's had.
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William MacDonald of Believers Bible Commentary had a business degree from Harvard, but no Seminary training.
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Smith Wigglesworth was a plumber. No academic training at all.
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I don't believe Martyn Lloyd-Jones had any formal theological training. In many circles he's regarded as the finest preacher of the 20th Century.
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He was actually a street preacher here in Ybor City Florida for a time, one of my (deceased) bible college professors apparently heard him preach one time as a young man, and remembered this quote: “Listen, I'm against sin. I'll kick it as long as I've got a foot, I'll fight it as long as I've got a fist, I've butt it as long as I've got a head, and I'll bite it as long as I've got a tooth. And when I'm old, fistless, footless, and toothless, I'll gum it till I go home to glory and it goes home to perdition.”1Cor10:31 said:I found one book of Billy Sunday in Logos. Peeked inside and found a quote I really like: One hundred percent belief in the Christian religion is as necessary to a preacher as knowledge of mathematics is to an engineer. One of the outcomes of my musing over the question that has piqued my interests (why I believe what I believe) is to give certainty to my beliefs. If you asked my beliefs 5 years back, I could tell you what they were, but my confidence was never 100%. Now, I have 100% confidence in many of those beliefs. In some, the confidence went to 0% and were ejected!
I like his energy. lol
The more we study the bible, the more our thoughts will reflect it.
. Bible College and Seminary will give you access to men who have spent their whole lives formally teaching, and preaching - basically thinking about and studying the bible. Helps us to stand on their shoulders in ways we couldn't otherwise. I think its extremely valuable - and I think the dearth of this sort of thing can lead to old heresies rising once more unintentionally. I stop short of my former roommate's (now PhD) recommendation that one should only serve in the church with formal PhD level education.
However, you should do what God is leading you to do. If that's full time school, then praise the Lord, if its part time school, praise the Lord, and if its dive right into ministry then praise the Lord.
At the risk of going off topic, and with a heavy heart I write this having just spoken to a dear friend from what seems like a life time ago. Being protestant, he was one of those where to sit with him for long was to hear his testimony, and a clear gospel presentation. He had a year of bible college and no more. He has a very dynamic personality, and kept strangers he'd never met entranced when he spoke. He modeled a lifestyle of evangelism that I deeply respected. Every time we spoke when he still lived here, he was telling us about people accepting christ, forsaking drugs, sexual immorality, and so forth, and embracing the Lord. He was daily in his bible, and had a verse memorized for every situation it seemed like. However he had little formal education (ged, 1 year of word of life), and hadn't really been mentored/discipled that I was aware of. With that level of study, he decided to eschew every system of counseling that exists (Not just secular, he also included nouthetic (Jay Adams and others) in that - all of which he rejected without knowing anything of substance about them), and decided to design his own - new - untested, unrelated system, without having the formal education in counseling to guide him in what works, and without the wisdom that comes from studying long under those with experience in counseling. I warned him against it. Counseling is hard. It isn't for the unprepared. Its dangerous not only to him but to those he wanted to help. Burnout is a very real risk for those trained and mentored in counseling. Suicide is too.
Today I learned he's abandoned his family, and "retired" at 35 (I knew him from 20-25 or so). Left the ministry. Isn't paying child support to his wife for their four kids.
That kind of flame out can happen to any one. But the ones that seem to last longest and make the best most positive impact are (generally, clearly not always) those that have been prepared well by people who have experience in the field, and a deep love of the Lord, and His word.
My dear friend was 10 for passion, 10 for willingness to serve, a 10 in hubris, and a 2 in preparedness for the task.
If you don't seek formal education, find a great mentor(s) who are further down the road you want to travel and go through life with him/them for a time. Its time well spent. One can never underestimate the value of men further down the roads you want to travel investing themselves into you.
I hope you hear this pastors heart, and if your destination is ministry; don't follow my friends example. Spend time in guided preparation with a mentor if you haven't already. And you may have. I don't know. I can only go by what is said in that brief opening post.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Spurgeon (one of my favorites) is also a phenomenal example of the heights that can be reached without (much - just a year of academy, which isn't seminary) formal education.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Florida Bible institute, now Trinity College of Florida. CMA turned Non-denominational. Now largely Calvinistic. Interestingly. All bible centric degrees. Bachelors of Arts in Biblical Studies.Floyd Johnson said:Billy Graham has a degree from Wheaton with a major in Anthropology. He also has a degree from a Bible College - but no seminary training.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Thank you Floyd for suggesting Billy Graham; his wiki seems to suggest that he had some sort of formal training
Thank you Keep smiling 4 Jesus for suggesting Spurgeon (one of my favorites too). The few times that I've read Gill's commentaries, I've come away impressed. I might have picked up Gill's name from Lectures to my Students, though can't recall for sure now.
Thank you Paul for suggesting Tozer. I've read his book on Attributes of God, which is really good. I will try to read other books of his.
Thank you Sean for suggesting Karl Barth. Sometime back, I started reading Church Dogmatics. That is a tough slog and I am not sure I'm going back to it. Charles Hodge's systematic theology is a lot easier. Vos was easy too. Calvin was a little hard; not as much as Karl Barth.
Thank you Mark for William MacDonald. I've never heard of his name, so I'll add him to my list.
Thank you Jan for suggesting Smith Wigglesworth. I've never heard of his name either.
Thank you Paul for suggesting Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Others suggested his name too. It is time to read some of his work.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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John Bunyan?
A.w. Pink?
preachertony.com — appletech.tips — facebook.com/tonywalker23 — twitter.com/tonywalker23 — youtube.com/tonywalker23
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List of oldest universities in continuous operation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_universities_in_continuous_operation
1180–1190[10] Italy
(teaching from c. 1088) University of Bologna1200–1214[15] United Kingdom
(teaching from c. 1096) University of Oxford1209–1225[24] United Kingdom University of Cambridge
1218–1219[24] SpainUniversity of Salamanca
United States
Harvard University 1636
The College of William & Mary 1693 (continuously since 1888)
List of medieval universities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_medieval_universities
C. 1088 (1158 charter granted) University of Bologna
1150 (1200 charter granted) University of Paris
List of Islamic seminaries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_seminaries#List_of_oldest_Islamic_seminaries
737 
Tunis, TunisiaUniversity of Ez-Zitouna 859 
Fes, MoroccoUniversity of Al Quaraouiyine 970-972 
Cairo, EgyptAl-Azhar University 0 -
Hi abondservant!
I truly appreciate your pastor's heart in your message.
abondservant said:remembered this quote: “Listen, I'm against sin. I'll kick it as long as I've got a foot, I'll fight it as long as I've got a fist, I've butt it as long as I've got a head, and I'll bite it as long as I've got a tooth. And when I'm old, fistless, footless, and toothless, I'll gum it till I go home to glory and it goes home to perdition.”
This is a good one. It is going into my Notes.
abondservant said:The more we study the bible, the more our thoughts will reflect it.
. Bible College and Seminary will give you access to men who have spent their whole lives formally teaching, and preaching - basically thinking about and studying the bible. Helps us to stand on their shoulders in ways we couldn't otherwise. I think its extremely valuable - and I think the dearth of this sort of thing can lead to old heresies rising once more unintentionally. I stop short of my former roommate's (now PhD) recommendation that one should only serve in the church with formal PhD level education.As a PhD myself, I totally see what you mean by standing on others' shoulders. Very few papers open up a completely new stream of research. Having had 23 years of schooling, I agree wholeheartedly with you on the value of education.
It is also my experience as a researcher that makes me realize that education can result in groupthink (I have a paper on that topic!), which can get in the way of connecting dots uniquely to unearth God's truths. I'll give you an example of what this means. When we have seminar speakers in an area that is not my specialty, the visiting speaker is sometimes surprised at the constructive ideas that I can give. It is not because I am uniquely smart, but I think this is because I am not seeped in the way people in that area think. You are able to think outside the box when it is not in your area.
abondservant said:However, you should do what God is leading you to do. If that's full time school, then praise the Lord, if its part time school, praise the Lord, and if its dive right into ministry then praise the Lord.
I am not sure what God's calling is for me. My best guess is that I blog on the logic of God: why God chose the doctrines that we believe in, which in turn helps decide what is truth and what is not.
Having said that, last week, I just bought my first 2 books on preaching (by John Piper). When I bought them, I was planning to read from a communication angle, but who knows.
I have considered taking online courses. We have a seminary in our city, so it has crossed my mind to take face-to-face. But there has been no strong pull thus far to go in this direction.
abondservant said:My dear friend was 10 for passion, 10 for willingness to serve, a 10 in hubris, and a 2 in preparedness for the task.
Thank you for taking the time to write about your friend. It benefited me and I'm sure others benefited from this example.
Hubris is related to overconfidence, and I am confident that there is some overconfidence in me! (I have enough overconfidence to recently write a paper that challenges conventional wisdom on overconfidence in my discipline)
abondservant said:If you don't seek formal education, find a great mentor(s) who are further down the road you want to travel and go through life with him/them for a time. Its time well spent. One can never underestimate the value of men further down the roads you want to travel investing themselves into you.
I hope you hear this pastors heart, and if your destination is ministry; don't follow my friends example. Spend time in guided preparation with a mentor if you haven't already. And you may have. I don't know. I can only go by what is said in that brief opening post.Again, I thank you for your thoughts. I would be happy to give up my tenured job in a heartbeat. I am open to getting a seminary education, but I need to be sure that is what God wants me to do. God has abundantly blessed our family, so I don't have to worry about monetary considerations. I ask myself: what is the best way for me to obey 1 Cor 10:31?
I would love to be able to engage with someone who is open to my way of thinking. Iron sharpens iron, but I need to find a willing iron in the first place. What I've met in my church circles has been totally dismissive of what I'm trying to do or they do some hand waving. The way my God is characterized in my church and the broader Christian circles is all very religious sounding and spiritual sounding, but it makes my God look really really small or mean. I could write a blog articles with the title: "My God is not..." some at the top of my mind: My God is not a parasite, not a sadist, not a pimp, not a puppetmaster...I could go on. Nobody believes that our God is a parasite, for example, but the statements made by influential Christian writers/theologians/pastors would be consistent with the behavior of a sadist.
Since you sound like someone with a seminary background, I can add another place where I have difficulty getting through. While systematic theology is better than unsystematic theology, it is just not enough. Systematic theology is not enough to eliminate contradictory beliefs. As financial economists, we would term engaging in systematic theology as partial equilibrium analysis because you are trying to understand the role of, say, prayer, holding all else equal. But all else equal doesn't apply to God who has infinite intelligence. God didn't choose each doctrine, say, prayer, in isolation. Doctrines are chosen jointly to achieve His goal. What we need is general equilibrium analysis: how God chose the various doctrines jointly to achieve His goal. This allows me to ask questions like: why did God choose to reveal Himself as 3-in-1? Why not 2-in-1 or 4-in-1? When I pose this question to people at my church, they'll say God didn't choose, and He was and is always 3-in-1. But when I ask, “how do you know?” there is that "you're nuts" look that comes across their faces.
Apologies to MJ and others in advance because I know this went completely off the rails, but abondservant's thoughtful response deserved a proper response. Probably this is me crying out for some help in finding a partner who will burn up the dross in my theology to let the beauty of God rise to the top.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10:31 said:
Probably this is me crying out for some help in finding a partner who will burn up the dross in my theology to let the beauty of God rise to the top.
Probably a single dialogue partner wouldn't be enough. My studies at Regent College, where I was exposed to classmates from all different backgrounds (most had come from some other career -- carpenter, veterinarian, lawyer, software engineer, doctor, etc. -- some from missions or other ministry-related work), ethnicities/nationalities (South America, Africa, Asia, Europe, Australasia, and plenty from North America), perspectives (a wide plethora of Protestant denominations from high church to low church to charismatic/pentecostal, and also a few Catholics and Orthodox), genders (more than half men, but still a good number of women), and goals (some planning to go into full-time ministry, some into academia, some back into the marketplace, others into other non-profit work, and many not yet sure). It was great to see the breadth in the body of Christ and have my preconceptions challenged at every turn. The faculty were also all over the spectrum theologically, though not as ethnically and gender diverse as some would have liked. But I did benefit from sitting under a couple of really excellent female faculty members teaching, preaching at chapel, leading retreats. It challenged me to use my gifts in ways that I might have let sit under a bushel otherwise with the excuse that "women aren't supposed to do that."
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1Cor10:31 said:
Apologies to MJ and others in advance because I know this went completely off the rails
I can't speak for others but I only worry about those "off the rail posts" that are hurtful to another religious group or misrepresent a group I know well. If there are other posts that I consider off-topic or bombastic, I am free to simply ignore them -- no harm done to anyone.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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There are other fields of theology beyond and around Systematics - Biblical, historical, etc. But I understand your position. Systematics seem to seek to squeeze all of the information in scripture about a specific topic into a handful of pages. Yet God's creation is incredibly complex, our creator even more so.
I think you could benefit from (and these guys have all written systematic theologies which is a bit ironc given the context) John Frame (he has a lot of books in Logos) - he taught at RTS here in Orlando for a time. Berkopf and Grudem (both in logos) were worthy reads as well. I second those who suggested Tozer, and Martyn Lloyd-Jones (whom I love to read). The Puritans (like Bunyan) are profitable as well. I imagine them living in a time when life was a little slower. No email, no cell phone... Just time spent with their Bibles, and with their thoughts as even short trips to the "store", took far longer than they do now.
Regarding your tenure, there is value in having believers in every strata of society. See where God leads you, but you might find that He wants you where you are. Are there many believers in your field? in your institution? Shaping the minds of tomorrows leaders is valuable to the kingdom. We need good Godly pastors; but we also need good Godly men teaching economics (etc).
I love your last line. To the extent that I am able, I'll make my self available. I do not have a PhD though; and I'm on the ten year plan for my M.Div (*chuckle*).
Sorry MJ, If I came across as Bombastic.
Rosie interestingly I had an opportunity to study under someone I deeply respected at Regent for a semester. One of my deep regrets is not taking advantage of that opportunity. My (also ten year) undergraduate experience was much as you described (minus catholics/orthodox) though. It had its weaknesses, but one of its strengths was the diversity in the faculty. I started at Trinity (non-denominational, with CMA roots) as a landmark baptist, charismatic, dispensational, arminian, studied under largely arminian faculty, a presbyterian, a few assembly of God folks, an Evangelical Free church guy, and graduated as cessationist, leaky dispensational, and amyraldian (fully distanced from landmarkism). Then I went to an Amyraldian seminary, and will graduate as credobaptistic, covenantal, cessationist, and full five points calvinist.
I agree that burning away the dross is a lifetime commitment, one I'm not sure we fully complete before eternity.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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abondservant said:
Sorry MJ, If I came across as Bombastic.
Not you, abondservant. But there are a couple of people who often post in contentious threads who do. While I disagree with you theologically, you have earned my respect as have others I know only through the forums.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Certainly, many great pastors and theologians like Charles Spurgeon lacked formal training, but they put in enormous time in preparation, and read well, deeply, and broadly. One advantage of seminary training is being directed toward meaningful resources, and forced to absorb them to some degree. I have deep respect for those who put in the time for preparation before venturing into ministry. There are men today who have done the same thing (Phil Johnson comes to mind). Sadly, there are also many who simply decided one day to be a pastor, and found themselves a pulpit, usually in a very small, often remote church, and had no idea of what they were getting themselves into.
I know of one man who was "made" pastor of a church after being a Christian for three years, without any sort of training whatsoever. Some twenty-five years down the line, he is now the leader of a small midwestern affiliation of churches, and is leading those churches slowly into aberrant and new age teachings, not because he is a heretic, but because he was never properly taught.
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I'm sure we will all be surprised when we get to glory, and God says "... so how did you arrive at that conclusion, weren't you paying attention when I said (...)". *chuckle*MJ. Smith said:abondservant said:Sorry MJ, If I came across as Bombastic.
Not you, abondservant. But there are a couple of people who often post in contentious threads who do. While I disagree with you theologically, you have earned my respect as have others I know only through the forums.
I want to have as few of those kinds of things as possible, but know there will undoubtedly be areas where I am blind to things, and have stood on the shoulders of centuries of people who in the teeth of their exertion to do otherwise, still managed to misunderstood something.
Plenty of respect for you too MJ. L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Granville Sharp (of Granville Sharp's Rule fame) apparently had no formal theological training. From Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (pp.270-271):
"Granville Sharp, son of an archdeacon and grandson of an archbishop, was an English philanthropist and abolitionist (1735–1813). He is known to students of history as “the Abraham Lincoln of England” for his key role in the abolition of slavery there. Though untrained theologically, he was a student of the scriptures. His strong belief in Christ’s deity led him to study the Bible in the original in order to defend more ably that belief. Through such motivation he became a relatively good linguist, able to handle both the Greek and Hebrew texts. As he studied the scriptures in the original, he noticed a certain pattern, viz., when the construction article-substantive-καί-substantive (TSKS) involved personal nouns which were singular and not proper names, they always referred to the same person. He noticed further that such a rule applied, in several texts to the deity of Jesus Christ. So in 1798 he published a short volume entitled, Remarks on the Definitive Article in the Greek Text of the New Testament, Containing Many New Proofs of the Divinity of Christ, from Passages Which Are Wrongly Translated in the Common English Version [KJV]. The volume went through four editions (three English and one American)."
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1Cor10:31 said:
I'm interested in knowing the names of some well-known theologians/pastors/writers...with no formal seminary training (I have no idea when the first seminary opened) and their backgrounds.
Hi 1Cor 10:31.
Not sure, but how about C. S. Lewis?
One way in which I would approach this research would be doing a search in a collection containing some of the "God's generals" resources:
Some of the believers talked about in the books are really amazing stories.
Some basic search with something like "no NEAR ("formal studies", "academic training", "formal training", "academic studies")" maybe?
As far as the pastor theologian issue, in some of the articles about it someone mentioned that theologians are no longer supported in the local church as they were before.
So one answer to that is bivocational ministry. Paul was an example of it: business entrepeneur, disciples, apostle, theologian, he did many roles trying to do the most good.
In a secular book I browsed long ago, the question stood: "all those bright minds, that know so much, have a challenge to face: create entrepreneurial initiatives that help with community, societal problems, and help create wealth for the good of those involved (sheep in need I insert)" [rough paraphrase pointing more to the concept than the exact words]
In Singapore, on top of buildings they are doing Aquaponics to deal with the "food security" issue, maybe an initiative like that coupled with a project like "A handful of rice" by Lutherans, is the answer to help people help themselves (christian responsibility), while at the same time getting top notch instruction from the bivocational minister.
Different angle on the different issues for further research, reflection, and constructive comment.
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Hamilton Ramos said:
Some basic search with something like "no NEAR ("formal studies", "academic training", "formal training", "academic studies")" maybe?
Thank you Hamilton, very interesting search.
I modified this a little to narrow it down by adding; WITHIN 3 WORDS Religion,Theology,Bible*,Preaching
Too soon old. Too late smart.
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Hi Bill:
Thanks for sharing, indeed, more interesting information narrowed down to not be overwhelming.
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Thank you for your responses. Appreciate the different viewpoints expressed here.
Tony and Kathleen and Kiyah: Thank you all for the extra resources.
Rosie: I agree multiple dialog partners would be ideal. We have a seminary professor in our church who leads Bible study. I’ve loved interacting with her. I guess other than going to a seminary, my hope rests on me getting my blog up and readers willing to interact.
Part of my frustration is that, despite the fact that I basically spend all my time on professional research or Bible research, I am doing neither particularly well.
abondservant: Thank you for more names. I seem to have a 1000-page (Theological Correspondence) book by John Frame, a name that I was not aware of. I’ll read it for sure.
In our profession, we have a small group of Christian professors who meet separately during conferences. One of the professors explicitly works on research that exposes darkness. I am not smart enough to be able to limit my ideas in such a fashion.
I can surely do a better job of being a Christian with my PhD students. As far as my undergrad/grad students, on the first day of class, I ask them to introduce themselves to the rest of the class by giving some non-academic information. When my students turn around and ask me the same question, I have many different ways to point out that I am a Christian.
Greg Lawhorn: I have no interest in becoming a full-time pastor. What I am convinced is that there are some unique truths that each and one of us can bring to the table. Here is George MacDonald (a favorite of CS Lewis): There is a chamber also (O God, humble and accept my speech)-a chamber in God Himself, into which none can enter but the one, the individual, the peculiar man-out of which chamber that man has to bring revelation and strength for his brethren. This is that for which he was made-to reveal the secret things of the Father. I want to make sure my propositions are truly truths before I put them out in the public domain.
Hamilton: CS Lewis is probably my all-time favorite (probably because I agree with him more, but mainly because I love his reasoning). Spurgeon is close, though I disagree with Spurgeon far more than with CS Lewis. Thank you for your search ideas. Much appreciated.
Blessings to all of you.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10:31 said:
I'm interested in knowing the names of some well-known theologians/pastors/writers...with no formal seminary training.
The 11 that come to my mind are: Simon, to whom He gave the name Peter; James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, to whom He gave the name Boanerges, that is, “Sons of Thunder”; Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Cananite;
Time spent with Jesus seems to be the best training.
[Y][:)]
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My name is Chad Diehl. I am 33 years old and live in South Carolina. God showed me visions tonight about starting a church. The name would be Revival Church. If you are still connected to this forum, I would love to engage with you about your way of thinking. We have a lot in common with how we see things. I am honestly not familiar with this forum or any forums these days. All I have is facebook. My number is 864-680-6325. If it is God‘s will for you to see this, then I look forward to hearing from. The sooner the better for me. I’m on fire right now for bringing God’s fire back into the world!!!!
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I LOVE your enthusiasm and zeal. I do caution against posting personal contact information in even a forum like this, because bots scrape these (and all) forums for whatever information can be gleaned and sold. For sure it will lead to an abundance of calls about your car's extended warranty, and from the IRS wanting iTunes giftcards and whatever the scam du jour is today.Chatham Diehl said:My name is Chad Diehl. I am 33 years old and live in South Carolina. God showed me visions tonight about starting a church. The name would be Revival Church. If you are still connected to this forum, I would love to engage with you about your way of thinking. We have a lot in common with how we see things. I am honestly not familiar with this forum or any forums these days. All I have is facebook. My number is 864-680-6325. If it is God‘s will for you to see this, then I look forward to hearing from. The sooner the better for me. I’m on fire right now for bringing God’s fire back into the world!!!!
One of the best things you can do, is have a deep affiliation with a partner church to help send you.
Church planting is a marathon, not a sprint. Having another pastor to mentor you along the way is and has been for me a major benefit along the way. Someone who could and would address me critically when I needed it, and encourage me when necessary.
A recommendation; great men like Charles Spurgeon did not have any formal theological education. Yet Spurgeon was an AVID reader. I recomend reading books that help shape your theology, and theopraxy in every area.
Finally, I think my church planting professor would have asked me "why is another church necessary there?". He wanted the most churches planted. But he also wanted them planted wisely.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I appreciate your sharing of this very much.
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