Bug?: SGNT SyntacticForce omits many person names

<LN 93.1–93.388> NOT INTERSECTS {Section <SGNTSyntacticForce = prop. name>} shows that the latter omits 439 person names in the ESV e.g. Jesus, John, Abraham!

The Louw-Nida subdomain is for Persons whereas the SyntacticForce term is for Persons and Places. Further, the subdomain excludes 64 occurrences of "Christ" that are not used as a person name vs. 7 for SGNT. "Lord" & "God" are excluded whereas SGNT includes 26 instances.

By comparison, <LN 93.389-615> NOT INTERSECTS {Section <SGNTSyntacticForce = prop. name>} shows that the latter only omits 98 place names.

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Comments

Rick Brannan (Logos)

The Syntactic Force data (based on Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament Data) was never intented to be comprehensive for each feature annotated (that would take a lifetime); instead, annotators focused on what they deemed to be the more significant annotations for the passage in question. So if a proper name was also the object of a preposition, it might be better annotated that way instead of as a personal name.

I'll file a case for some review of these particular items.

Sean Boisen

Dave, I'm curious: was there a particular outcome you were hoping to accomplish with this query? If so, I'd like to understand it and see if it's possible some other way (given the specific constraints on the SGNT data that Rick noted).

Sean Boisen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1186816#Comment_1186816

Dave, I'm curious: was there a particular outcome you were hoping to accomplish with this query? If so, I'd like to understand it and see if it's possible some other way (given the specific constraints on the SGNT data that Rick noted).

Never mind: Andrew Batishko pointed me to the original thread at https://community.logos.com/forums/t/204002.aspx. I agree with your recommendation there to use LN codes.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1186817#Comment_1186817

The Syntactic Force data (based on Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament Data) was never intented to be comprehensive for each feature annotated (that would take a lifetime); instead, annotators focused on what they deemed to be the more significant annotations for the passage in question. So if a proper name was also the object of a preposition, it might be better annotated that way instead of as a personal name.

Dave, I'm curious: was there a particular outcome you were hoping to accomplish with this query? If so, I'd like to understand it and see if it's possible some other way (given the specific constraints on the SGNT data that Rick noted).

Sean,

I was expecting that a "proper name" (in the Context menu) will deliver that consistently, irrespective of the dataset. The SGNT Glossary states: "proper name: A form, often indeclinable, which expresses the formal name of a substantival element." I couldn't find a Manual. So it is difficult to appreciate the limitations that Rick mentioned. One has to do some research for the Louw-Nida query but that was discovered by the user in the original thread, who just needed some Search assistance in determining the best query for his need.

Incidentally, The Bible Sense Lexicon manual states "A third perceived limitation may be the failure of the Bible Sense Lexicon to treat proper names. However, proper names are treated in the Biblical People and Biblical Places datasets within Logos Bible Software. This would have made treatment of proper names redundant." Not quite. Had it a <Sense Place Name>, <Sense Person Name>, we could have a context sensitive tagging similar to Louw-Nida for the Old Testament (and the New).

Sean Boisen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1186851#Comment_1186851

The Syntactic Force data (based on Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament Data) was never intented to be comprehensive for each feature annotated (that would take a lifetime); instead, annotators focused on what they deemed to be the more significant annotations for the passage in question. So if a proper name was also the object of a preposition, it might be better annotated that way instead of as a personal name.

Dave, I'm curious: was there a particular outcome you were hoping to accomplish with this query? If so, I'd like to understand it and see if it's possible some other way (given the specific constraints on the SGNT data that Rick noted).

Sean,

I was expecting that a "proper name" (in the Context menu) will deliver that consistently, irrespective of the dataset. The SGNT Glossary states: "proper name: A form, often indeclinable, which expresses the formal name of a substantival element." I couldn't find a Manual. So it is difficult to appreciate the limitations that Rick mentioned. One has to do some research for the Louw-Nida query but that was discovered by the user in the original thread, who just needed some Search assistance in determining the best query for his need.

Incidentally, The Bible Sense Lexicon manual states "A third perceived limitation may be the failure of the Bible Sense Lexicon to treat proper names. However, proper names are treated in the Biblical People and Biblical Places datasets within Logos Bible Software. This would have made treatment of proper names redundant." Not quite. Had it a <Sense Place Name>, <Sense Person Name>, we could have a context sensitive tagging similar to Louw-Nida for the Old Testament (and the New).

Dave, those are reasonable expectations. I'd still like to integrate our extensive name annotations into the Bible Sense Lexicon: omitting that was a pragmatic decision given the complexity of that work, not a desirable design.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1186897#Comment_1186897

I'd still like to integrate our extensive name annotations into the Bible Sense Lexicon: omitting that was a pragmatic decision given the complexity of that work, not a desirable design.

An alternative, often requested, would be <Person Any>, <Place Any> from the existing datasets.

Rick Brannan (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1186795#Comment_1186795

The NT Syntactic Force dataset has been updated and the update should be available for licensed users.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1193701#Comment_1193701

Hi Rick

The update fixes the person name discrepancy but still leaves a difference of 98 place names compared to <LN 93.389-615>

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1186915#Comment_1186915

An alternative, often requested, would be <Person Any>, <Place Any> from the existing datasets.

[Y]

Rick Brannan (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1193952#Comment_1193952

The update fixes the person name discrepancy but still leaves a difference of 98 place names compared to <LN 93.389-615>

I read the "proper name" tag of the Lexham SGNT as applying to person names. But I can add the place names if you'd like (but they won't be distinguishable apart from combining with Louw-Nida).

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1194027#Comment_1194027

I read the "proper name" tag of the Lexham SGNT as applying to person names. But I can add the place names if you'd like (but they won't be distinguishable apart from combining with Louw-Nida).

It already has at least 1023 place names but lacks 98 compared to Louw-Nida. Please add them