Michael Heiser's Bible Research Method vs Passage Exegesis Workflows
What is the difference between Michael Heiser's Bible Research Method and the Passage Exegesis Workflow?
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bump for attention 3
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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What is the difference between Michael Heiser's Bible Research Method and the Passage Exegesis Workflow?
I'm uncertain of what you want to know. Does this answer it?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ, thanks for posting that!
Would I be correct to say that the Michael Heiser Method more closely follows the terminology and order of many introductory textbooks aimed at first and second year seminary students?
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Mike Heiser is doing a live free event on how he uses his workflow.
Sound Biblical Theology in the Digital Age Tickets, Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 8:00 PM | Eventbrite
I have registered for this.
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Would I be correct to say that the Michael Heiser Method more closely follows the terminology and order of many introductory textbooks aimed at first and second year seminary students?
I cannot answer that because in broad terms there are at least two quite different approaches depending upon the hermeneutical stance of the seminary.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mike Heiser is doing a live free event on how he uses his workflow.
Sound Biblical Theology in the Digital Age Tickets, Tue, Dec 21, 2021 at 8:00 PM | Eventbrite
Thanks!
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Would I be correct to say that the Michael Heiser Method more closely follows the terminology and order of many introductory textbooks aimed at first and second year seminary students?
I cannot answer that because in broad terms there are at least two quite different approaches depending upon the hermeneutical stance of the seminary.
The other is that book you linked me to awhile back? I bought it, but forgot to read it. Moving that to the top of my reading list. Sorry to be repetitive with my questions, if that is what you are referring.
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Sorry to be repetitive with my questions, if that is what you are referring.
No, not you, but forum guidelines. It is a case where I would have trouble answering without evaluative language that showed my theological/hermeneutical/philosophical bias.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sorry to be repetitive with my questions, if that is what you are referring.
No, not you, but forum guidelines. It is a case where I would have trouble answering without evaluative language that showed my theological/hermeneutical/philosophical bias.
Oops, I meant referring to the book, not referring to my question. I try not to waste people's time by asking the same question twice, because I did not fully follow up on previous advice. I did purchase this book:
The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church
https://www.logos.com/product/163596/the-interpretation-of-the-bible-in-the-church
I am sorry that I have not done more than skim the table of contents, but continue to ask questions that might be answered in it.
Are there specific books that best support using different workflows? Are we allowed to discuss which books support which workflows?
The Heiser workflow is easier for me to use in the short-term as it is more familiar. But I am using Ollie's Homily method as the foundation of my current paper, combined with a dream about the 3 bears, and I am very happy with this paper so far. God is showing me that now is the time to explore some less familiar things, as much as I would prefer to complete more assignments with familiar methods. I don't think His goals are always my goals right now. I try to stay open to adapt to each day, but also do not want to waste my days chasing greener grass that is not greener.
If there are two major approaches, I think it might be best that I have a shallow overview of how they are different, even if I only master and use one of them.
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Are there specific books that best support using different workflows? Are we allowed to discuss which books support which workflows?
Definitely. Often the workflow itself or the product page will direct you to the support for specific workflows. I can even say that I place some steps in the "looking busy but carefully learning nothing" category. But I can't say Method A relies on the ridulously flawed (non-Biblical, ahistoric) assumption B and consists solely of steps that concentrate on "looking busy but carefully learning nothing" with no safeguards against hubris as exhibited in its practitioners. I'm not saying Logos has any that bad; but I have encountered some that are that bad ... and they cast a long shadow of distaste.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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"looking busy but carefully learning nothing" with no safeguards against hubris as exhibited in its practitioners.
1. Running on the hamster wheel
2. Increasing in arrogance instead of humility
Academics both secular and Christian confuse me. When something beyond my control yanks me away from academics for a period whether it is just accredited academics or academics all together, I don't panic anymore, but instead try to use the time to clear my head and be a Mary more than a Martha.
At first it was most confusing when I am yanked off the hamster wheel. It set me apart from others. We all looked for something and someone to blame. We all agreed this was BAD. Now sometimes, I feel most confused when given permission to run on the wheel and maybe even a command to run on the wheel, until the wheel stops turning or I am yanked off again.
I grew up being warned not to pray from patience, but no one ever warned me against praying to be useful. Ouch. Life went from hard to barely survivable after that. And only survivable with His help, with big chunks of time hidden away in obscurity and off any wheels, until I pop up again and run like the wind for a time.
The conclusion for my current paper:
Ecclesiastes 12:13Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
WSC Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever.
My wheel is getting back up to speed. I'm about to get some more pats on my head from my siblings. But what does Daddy want me to be doing with my days?
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MJ, thanks for posting that!
Would I be correct to say that the Michael Heiser Method more closely follows the terminology and order of many introductory textbooks aimed at first and second year seminary students?
MJ, that was good but I am wanting to know when I should do Heiser's method before or after?
Kathleen,
Thank you for your kind words. I want to find out how the method of Heiser relates to exegetical works.
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with no safeguards against hubris
Dog Gone MJ... You keep throwing all of those fancy words out there [;)]
I just now finished watching an episode (Season 2-Episode 2) from "The Chosen" (I really like this series) and one of the characters (Nathanael I think) was saying that his friend (Himself actually) and died from Hubris.
Then I got on line and read your response and there's that word again, Hubris.
Ok, I really don't know what it means so I just HAD to look it up. Good word. I have to say that a lot of the time something in your posts really stretches my understanding and or knowledge base and helps me to grow. Thank you for that!
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You keep throwing all of those fancy words out there
You're welcome. "Hubris" separates the Catholics from the Protestants - hubris is one of the seven deadly sins which Catholic children learn to list at an early age:
Origin of the currently recognized seven deadly sins
The modern concept of the seven deadly sins is linked to the works of the fourth-century monk Evagrius Ponticus, who listed eight evil thoughts in Greek as follows:
- Γαστριμαργία (gastrimargia) gluttony
- Πορνεία (porneia) prostitution, fornication
- Φιλαργυρία (philargyria) avarice (greed)
- Λύπη (lypē) sadness, rendered in the Philokalia as envy, sadness at another's good fortune
- Ὀργή (orgē) wrath
- Ἀκηδία (akēdia) acedia, rendered in the Philokalia as dejection
- Κενοδοξία (kenodoxia) boasting
- Ὑπερηφανία (hyperēphania) pride, sometimes rendered as self-overestimation, arrogance, grandiosity
They were translated into the Latin of Western Christianity largely in the writings of John Cassian), thus becoming part of the Western tradition's spiritual pietas (Catholic devotions), as follows:
- Gula (gluttony)
- Luxuria/Fornicatio (lust, fornication)
- Avaritia (avarice/greed)
- Tristitia (sorrow/despair/despondency)
- Ira (wrath)
- Acedia (sloth)
- Vanagloria (vainglory)
- Superbia (pride, hubris)
I suspect current little ones may learn a bit more modern terminology. I try not to use denominational terminology but now and then one slips through.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Did the Protestant reformers disagree with the lists like "7 Deadly Sins"? Or maybe they just faded away with such tight focus on their own canon and catechisms?
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Anglican and Lutherans who claim to follow the middle way tended to keep the concepts but update the language. They also basically kept the traditional canon - rearranged and demoted but still in the general framework for canonical. The Reformed was the force behind the shorter canon ... and a single level concept of canon. Those with a "once saved always saved" or "total depravity of man" (sterotypical not nuanced use by myself) theological thread had little need for a hierarchy of sin. Or, at least, I've not run into them in this tradition.
Broad concept of canon which can be used across all Christian denominations regardless of their particular definitions on canon:
- Proto-canonical: texts that may be used for lessons in worship settings and are appropriate as a basis for doctrine.
- Deutero-canonical: texts that may be used for lessons in worship settings but are not appropriate as a basis for doctrine.
- Trito-canonical texts: texts that are not used for lessons in worship settings (although they may be used as antiphons, etc.) nor as a basis for doctrine but are beneficial for personal reading.
Note that no church or theology would use these precise definitions although they are derived from Jewish sources; they are categories that are used in the study of religion where one is trying to use identical terminology across theological boundaries with different terminology.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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What is the basic Protestant canon in your opinion and how does it differ from that of deeper denominations such as Southern Baptists, Independents, Anglicans, etc? Why is the canon so deprived of ideological sorts in this fashion? I am not a KJV only but I believe we should get to the original text such as the Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.
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What is the basic Protestant canon
I think that a 'Facebook' search for 'Canon of the Bible' will save members a lot of typing.
However I have not come up with anything that explains the term 'deeper' when applied to Southern Baptists or Independents. I am even more intrigued when Anglicans are placed in the same box.
Please will you amplify the term 'deeper'?
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Please will you amplify the term 'deeper'?
All religions have a source of doctrine, usually an ancient writing that they believe to be the inspired Word of God. For Christians, that means the Bible, including the Old and New Testaments. Many denominations, however, also look to other writings (from historical church fathers, theologians, creeds, and so on) as faithful interpretations and confessions of Scripture. Denominations are an expression of the massively trans-cultural, ethnic, geographical and ideological influence of Christianity. I believe there is a push to enforce the rule that one ought to state "which Bible" one is interested in learning about. The Baptist denominations are generally considered to lie within Protestantism, though some argue that the practice of “believers baptism” i.e Baptism on confession of faith by the candidate preceeds the Reformation and therefore Baptist churches should not be grouped in this manner. Let me know if this is a good clarification.
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Let me know if this is a good clarification.
It is a good piece of text, if almost axiomatic. It pretty much answers your own original post.
It does not clarify why Southern Baptists, Independents and (strangely in my opinion) Anglicans, are referred to in your earlier post as 'deeper'.
In what sense is 'deeper' being used.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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In what sense is 'deeper' being used.
Deeper is being used to show how that their basis is different. Christian denominations differ in how they view the Bible. They have dividing lines on Doctrine. A denominationis a branch or sub-group within Christianity that has a distinct name, organizational structure, and set of core doctrines. Denominations may differ in their interpretation of minor issues or on how churches should be run, but for the most part they agree on essential matters of doctrine about Christ and salvation. That said, there can be a great degree of variety even among churches within the same denomination. Denominations were started by the devil himself, to confuse the church. This is my sense of deeper I am explaining.
Paul writes that the body hasn’t been divided up in order to tell us that we shouldn’t be divided. He says this same thing over and over in 1 Corinthians. We are of one spirit and though we are many members, we have one body (1 Corinthians 12:20) and that body cannot be divided (1 Corinthians 12:25). So what is being said is that there is one body United in Christ, or as many confessions will call it “the invisible church”. The visible church means the members of a local church who may or may not be Christians.
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Sorry Christian
What you write is all understandable. What I still don't understand is on what criteria you consider, Southern Baptists, Independents and Anglicans deeper than average and what the measure of 'deepness' refers too.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Sorry Christian
What you write is all understandable. What I still don't understand is on what criteria you consider, Southern Baptists, Independents and Anglicans deeper than average and what the measure of 'deepness' refers too.
I am not considering any one denomination deeper than average. Deeper is an ideological perspective.
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Maybe deeper is Heiser's deep ... scuba gear and Yam.0
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"how does it differ from that of deeper denominations such as Southern Baptists, Independents, Anglicans, etc?" "I am not considering any one denomination deeper than average. Deeper is an ideological perspective."
This is Alice in Wonderland logic- I always loved the Mad Hatter
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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What is the basic Protestant canon in your opinion and how does it differ from that of deeper denominations such as Southern Baptists, Independents, Anglicans, etc?
Use the Canon comparison tool, despite a couple of changes that made it incorrect for two non-Western groups to see what the basic Protestant canon is.
"Deeper denominations" must be denominational terminology as it means nothing to me and I fail to see the commonality in the members you list. Were I to guess the meaning of the term, I would assume deeper historical roots which would make the Eastern Orthodox the deepest - at least in terms of the expression of their theology.
Why is the canon so deprived of ideological sorts in this fashion?
Because we do NOT discuss ideology on the forums. To discuss the matter at all in answer to a questions my answer must be historical NOT ideological.
I believe we should get to the original text
I wish you lots of luck. We have no copies of the original text. What we have is a variety of texts preserved by the historical churches (Greek, Latin, Syriac, Gothic, Coptic, Armenian, Georgian ...) and the Jewish people (Hebrew, Aramaic). We do our best to discern the original text from these many sources that God's plan had us preserve..
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Anglican and Lutherans who claim to follow the middle way tended to keep the concepts but update the language. They also basically kept the traditional canon - rearranged and demoted but still in the general framework for canonical. The Reformed was the force behind the shorter canon ... and a single level concept of canon. Those with a "once saved always saved" or "total depravity of man" (sterotypical not nuanced use by myself) theological thread had little need for a hierarchy of sin. Or, at least, I've not run into them in this tradition.
Broad concept of canon which can be used across all Christian denominations regardless of their particular definitions on canon:
- Proto-canonical: texts that may be used for lessons in worship settings and are appropriate as a basis for doctrine.
- Deutero-canonical: texts that may be used for lessons in worship settings but are not appropriate as a basis for doctrine.
- Trito-canonical texts: texts that are not used for lessons in worship settings (although they may be used as antiphons, etc.) nor as a basis for doctrine but are beneficial for personal reading.
Note that no church or theology would use these precise definitions although they are derived from Jewish sources; they are categories that are used in the study of religion where one is trying to use identical terminology across theological boundaries with different terminology.
Thank you. This is quite helpful!
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