Are you using Logos for Lent in any way?
If you practice Lent, do you practice the Gesima season or are you still in Ordinary time, today?
I don't see much Lent discussion in the forum since 2015. What is available in Logos for this topic?
I'm not shutting down Logos for Lent.... and I don't see the Bible saying much about Lent .... but then I'm not Catholic. [8-|]
and I don't see the Bible saying much about Lent .... but then I'm not Catholic
Wrong-o. There is nothing particularly Catholic about Lent. But then, did you know the liturgical year, simply follows the life of Jesus ... year after year every year? or that Old Testament readings of Lent (and Easter Vigil) retell salvation history from creation to Jesus? The season names simply emphasize major themes.
Gesimatide is a nearly obsolete vocabulary -- I don't personally know anyone who still uses it. But I know where to find at least one family that does.
For several years, Lent for me combines two Orthodox/Eastern-rite practices - the reading of St. John Climacus and the Canon of St. Andrew. The first is now available in Logos but I will still probably read the hard copy. I'll continue the Kellia readings of the Gospels -- another Eastern practice which keeps the focus strictly on the Gospels not the epistles. Then I have my own tradition of reading fictional accounts of Jesus' life (or Holy Week) which I've done ever since a former/lapsed Catholic laughingly told his Mother that he still spent Good Friday in a Catholic Church reading a fictional account of Holy Week. And, as expected, I'll read some musings on the seven last words on Good Friday (and perhaps a bit more of Holy Week).
My wife and I will add this to our daily devotional reading together:
https://www.logos.com/product/194944/journey-to-the-cross-a-40-day-lenten-devotional
I think preparing for Easter in a purposeful way is good regardless of worship tradition.
-john
.... and I don't see the Bible saying much about Lent .... but then I'm not Catholic.
There are a ton of more newly published and far more expensive but more anemic resources that attempt to cover salvation history. I find it interesting to compare these newer salvation history resources with the traditional ones.
In Logos, I am using mostly pre-1979 Anglican resources that still use the one-year cycle instead of the newer three-year cycle, as I think the salvation history message is clearer. And I find one year cycles emotionally stabilizing.
Gesimatide seems to compliment my two primary goals stated above, better than a couple more weeks of ordinary time.
MJ, thanks for the titles of the resources that you use! I will look those up.
I wish we had Maria von Trapp's book in Logos.
https://www.amazon.com/Around-Year-Von-Trapp-Family/dp/162282668X
I have access to this book in audio at Hoopla through my library, but audio with no table of contents is not the best way to use this book! It would be a no-brainer to purchase the book in Logos, but so far have not purchased it in any of the available formats. Maria celebrated the Gesima season.
My wife and I will add this to our daily devotional reading together: https://www.logos.com/product/194944/journey-to-the-cross-a-40-day-lenten-devotional I think preparing for Easter in a purposeful way is good regardless of worship tradition. -john
Thank you for this link!
I like your use of the word "purposeful". Thanks for that!
and I don't see the Bible saying much about Lent .... but then I'm not Catholic Wrong-o.
Wrong-o.
Wrong-o --- a new word for American English!!! lol
As far as I know... which isn't very much... but didn't the 1st lent come to be about 325 AD during the Council of Nicea. Which is 229 years after the completion of the Bible which was in 96 AD (I know about the 4 year argument about the birth of Christ.... I choose to use the earlier date).
So my earlier comment... about the Bible not saying much about lent... is Right-o!! Since it was not taught until after 325 AD and is never mentioned in the Scriptures.... and the church that was there before 96 AD did not use it. If it was in Scripture before 96 AD then the church that existed during that 1st century would have taught/used/practiced it. Wouldn't they?
Not trying to debate... but having an open mind... I don't mind being wrong when I don't understand truth. [8-|]
"Trinity" is never used in scriptures. [;)] You are correct, I believe, that the first mention of the word "Lent" is circa 325 AD -- but as an existing practice to be acknowledged/standardized not as a new invention The Bible does mention the 40 days in the desert which is reflected in the 40 days of Lent. But it is a disciple not a doctrine and therefore, no more apt to be mentioned in scriptures than the old practice of having men and women sit on different sides of the church or using grape juice rather than wine for communion or entering a church silently or with social chatting. My objection, however, was your implication that such an ecumenical practice was somehow "Catholic" I'll now add an objection for confusing discipline for doctrine.
FWIW: the early history of Lent is unknown and unknowable - my personal suspicion is that it grew up alongside the practice of baptisms on Easter with preparation preceding. But I have no more evidence for this option than any other.
"Trinity" is never used in scriptures. You are correct, I believe, that the first mention of the word "Lent" is circa 325 AD -- but as an existing practice to be acknowledged/standardized not as a new invention The Bible does mention the 40 days in the desert which is reflected in the 40 days of Lent. But it is a disciple not a doctrine and therefore, no more apt to be mentioned in scriptures than the old practice of having men and women sit on different sides of the church or using grape juice rather than wine for communion or entering a church silently or with social chatting. My objection, however, was your implication that such an ecumenical practice was somehow "Catholic" I'll now add an objection for confusing discipline for doctrine. FWIW: the early history of Lent is unknown and unknowable - my personal suspicion is that it grew up alongside the practice of baptisms on Easter with preparation preceding. But I have no more evidence for this option than any other.
"Trinity" is never used in scriptures. You are correct, I believe, that the first mention of the word "Lent" is circa 325 AD -- but as an existing practice to be acknowledged/standardized not as a new invention The Bible does mention the 40 days in the desert which is reflected in the 40 days of Lent. But it is a disciple not a doctrine and therefore, no more apt to be mentioned in scriptures than the old practice of having men and women sit on different sides of the church or using grape juice rather than wine for communion or entering a church silently or with social chatting. My objection, however, was your implication that such an ecumenical practice was somehow "Catholic" I'll now add an objection for confusing discipline for doctrine.
Mucho Correcto that "Trinity" is not use in Scriptures.... but "Godhead" is used.... Rom 1:20, Col 2:9.
But.... "Wrong-o" (I borrowed the word lol )....that before 325 AD, Council of Nicea.... there is no mention, no practice, no teaching about "Lent". This teaching as far as I can find... started at the Council of Nicea, which was of the Catholic persuasion... Most definitely, there is no mention of this teaching before 96 AD and the church that existed before 96 AD didn't teach it nor mention it.
There are a lot of "teachings" that came after 96 AD. But the "Teachings of God" (i.e. the Bible) was completed in 96 AD and there has not been any more teachings of God since then. (starts ducking from the LFPD radar... ) ... I do wish Logos would allow some discussions.... but I understand... and I do try to follow the rules.... really!
I am interested in salvation history teaching resources from all stages of Christian history and all parts of the world.
I am interested in Christian family building resources from all stages of history and all parts of the world; those for to the nuclear family, and even more so those for the worldwide family.
The world goes through phases where more or less of the laypeople are literate. Salvation history and family building resources change according to literacy levels and so many other factors that change over time. The salvation history stories told over and over in church disciple the most vulnerable and marginalized members of our family.
I am curious what individual people and families are using, not what individual people think OTHER people should or should not use. I am glad that we are not debating this. I am interested in "I ..." and "We ..." stories,
I am curious what Lent resources are available in Logos, and also what resources are widely used for Lent but are not in Logos. Maybe some requests can be made for resources that maybe we can enjoy in the future.
I am curious of the history of Lent, especially Logos resources that discuss its history, and that can be cited in papers and sermons.
There are a lot of "teachings" that came after 96 AD. But the "Teachings of God" (i.e. the Bible) was completed in 96 AD and there has not been any more teachings of God since then.
Please read more accurately. Lent is a discipline not a teaching or a doctriine. And remember that absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence especially on topics with very light historical coverage. BTW my understanding of Godhead is very different from Trinity...
Mucho Correcto .... "Wrong-o"
Can you help me learn about the history of Lent by directing me to Logos resources?
As I continue to study all the different denominations, I have noticed that some of the churches that are teaching Lent lessons are also teaching catechism and other kinds of classes right now. Some classes end at Easter. I am curious who is doing what and when.
teaching catechism and other kinds of classes right now. Some classes end at Easter. I am curious who is doing what and when.
The traditional pattern is catechism before Easter, baptism etc. on Easter (vigil), mystagogia after Easter,
Gregory of Nyssa. Catechetical Discourse: A Handbook for Catechists. Edited by John Behr. Translated by Ignatius Green. Vol. 60. Popular Patristics Series. Yonkers, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2019.
Cyril of Jerusalem. The Catechetical Lectures of S. Cyril. Oxford; London: John Henry Parker; J. G. and F. Rivington, 1838.
St. Augustine. St. Augustine: The First Catechetical Instruction. Edited by Johannes Quasten and Joseph C. Plumpe. Translated by Joseph P. Christopher. Vol. 2. Ancient Christian Writers. New York; Mahwah, NJ: Newman Press, 1947.
Cyril of Jerusalem. Lectures on the Christian Sacraments: The Procatechesis and the Five Mystagogical Catecheses. Edited by F. L. Cross and John Behr. Popular Patristics Series, Number 2. Crestwood, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1977.
Saint Maximus the Confessor. On the Ecclesiastical Mystagogy. Edited by John Behr. Translated by Jonathan J. Armstrong, Shawn Fowler, and Tim Wellings. Vol. 59. Popular Patristics Series. Yonkers, NY: St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 2019.
Mucho Correcto .... "Wrong-o" Can you help me learn about the history of Lent by directing me to Logos resources?
I'm sorry Kathleen Marie.... I have never studied Lent.... except as a ideology as to when it started and such. MJ would probably be a better choice for you to learn about Lent.
I mainly study the Bible.... and try to learn it... and as I have stated... the Bible teaches nothing about Lent.
Thanks for asking.
I am interested in salvation history teaching resources from all stages of Christian history and all parts of the world. I am interested in Christian family building resources from all stages of history and all parts of the world; those for to the nuclear family, and even more so those for the worldwide family.
I appreciate your interest....
As I read my Bible....I believe that God only instituted 2 things on this earth... 1. Marriage and 2. the church. It is through the church that salvation happens and further is through Jesus Christ.
I also believe that the church existed before 96 AD. Notice Paul's writings... Rom 1:7, Eph 1:1, Col 1:2, Phil 1:1, "to the saints.." Saints are people in the church which Jesus built... which was in Rome, and in Ephesus. Other times Paul wrote to the church.... 1Th 1:1, 2Th 1:1, "... to the church...". which proves the church existed before 96 AD because all the a fore mentioned books were written before 96 AD.
For further studies about salvation.... a very good book is "The Bible Makes Christians Only And The Only Christians" by Thomas B. Warren. This book dispels a lot of "man made teachings" about salvation in a simple way.
There is an excellent study series at http://noeo.net/obs/sft/1/sft1a.htm called "Search for Truth" that will help to understand more about the Bible, about salvation and one's relationship with Christ if your interested,
MJ and xnman, Thank you both!
I have no paper due on this topic now, and I am only interested for my own curiosity. But I never know when a paper will be assigned. I want to be aware of the widest amount of literature possible.
I enjoy the diversity of the church! I love to interact and listen to all the voices and ideas. I love that my family is so talented and creative and adaptable to their own part of the world. All the different traditions are like a big buffet table. I love it when I am welcomed to try a new spiritual food.
I have never studied Lent.... except as a ideology
Lent is not an ideology. Do you pray before you eat? before you sleep? Those are disciplines. Lent is a discipline - nothing less and nothing more. And Lent does have a biblical basis. Don't confuse the term with the practice.
MJ would probably be a better choice for you to learn about Lent.
I don't know of any introductory, single volume work on sacred time. I thought that Gordon Lanthrop or Paul Bradshaw had one but I've not found them. I suspect that it is because the history is not well documented -- rather it is implied by the history of lectionaries and liturgies. The best book on Lent is The Great Lent by Alexander Schmemann.. The standard 13? volume study of the Liturgical year is by Dom Prosper Gueranger and Brother Hermenegild but I wouldn't recommend it for you at this point.
I have never studied Lent.... except as a ideology Lent is not an ideology. Do you pray before you eat? before you sleep? Those are disciplines. Lent is a discipline - nothing less and nothing more. And Lent does have a biblical basis. Don't confuse the term with the practice. MJ would probably be a better choice for you to learn about Lent. I don't know of any introductory, single volume work on sacred time. I thought that Gordon Lanthrop or Paul Bradshaw had one but I've not found them. I suspect that it is because the history is not well documented -- rather it is implied by the history of lectionaries and liturgies. The best book on Lent is The Great Lent by Alexander Schmemann.. The standard 13? volume study of the Liturgical year is by Dom Prosper Gueranger and Brother Hermenegild but I wouldn't recommend it for you at this point.
Thanks! I have the The Great Lent.
I discovered Liturgical year by Dom Prosper Gueranger on St Matthais Day, last week. We don't have any of him in Logos, do we?
While I was just poking around on the Logos site, looking for these titles, The Fullness of Time in a Flat World: Globalization and the Liturgical Year popped up. I was able to grab it just in time before the sale ends today, at $4.99. I thought the flat earth reference was something entirely different than a reference to economics. LOL.
https://www.logos.com/product/162509/the-fullness-of-time-in-a-flat-world-globalization-and-the-liturgical-year
I am salivating over this set and the cheapest collections that include it.
Sermons for the Christian Year (11 vols.)
https://www.logos.com/product/30391/sermons-for-the-christian-year
Quote from the above book.
Liturgical rhythms are implicated here when we realize that the rhythms of consumption have displaced the liturgical rhythms of the Christian year, most notably at Christmas and Easter. As Leigh Eric Schmidt puts it, “The marketplace serves … as an obvious arena of holiday preparation, observance, and enthrallment—a central location for the commemoration of Christianity’s most important holy days as well as [p 150] for the enactment of America’s most prominent civic holidays.” (Schmidt, Consumer Rites, 3). And all are commemorated through shopping. North American Christians even live by a different liturgical calendar that has mimicked and displaced the authentic one by subtly turning their Christian festivities into buying seasons fitting in the rhythms of American retailers: Halloween is the retail Advent, a season of transition that prepares us for Thanksgiving and Christmas, the center of the retail year. Valentine’s Day is retail Epiphany, a brief burst of activity before the retail Easter, which is less important than retail Christmas. Mother’s Day and Memorial Day form a retail Ascension, feasting before the retail Pentecost called the Fourth of July, which promotes a small burst of spending spirit. We then enter an ordinary time of summer relaxation, back to school shopping, Labor Day, and the transition into the fall, looking toward Halloween.
The Puritans helped clear the way for this calendar of capitalism by cutting down on the old Catholic fasts and feasts and promoting a flatter sense of time: “The sooner such festivals and holy days were brought under control and reduced in number, the better for commerce, civic prosperity, and genuine piety.”(Schmidt, Consumer Rites, 23; see also Robinson, Work, Leisure, and the Environment, 109.) Yet we ended up with a cycle of seasons after all, one that promoted steadier consumption than seasons of fits and starts, highs and lows, fasts and feasts—and one that is speeding up and pushing Christmas ever earlier. But how might we learn to live differently and slow down?
Lent gives us the space to begin finding and living out answers to this question so that we can enter the fullness of God in time. By fasting from the temptations of the world for a season we develop the disciplines to live with openness and receptivity toward grace. By journeying through Lent in the practices of resting, prayer, fasting, and confession, it is possible to discover true repentance, a real turn-around of thoughts and actions through habits of decreased consumption and greater reflection. Entering into the story of Lent each year can even help the church improvise constructive ethical responses to problems inherent in global consumption.Scott Waalkes, The Fullness of Time in a Flat World: Globalization and the Liturgical Year, ed. Thomas Heilke, D. Stephen Long, and C. C. Pecknold, vol. 6, Theopolitical Visions (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2010), 149–150.
More from this book that many of us might be overlookingRE-ENACTING THE SEASON OF LENTObserving Lent can help us enter the fullness of God. In the broadest sense, Lent re-enacts Jesus’ turn toward Jerusalem and his turn toward the suffering that culminates at the cross. It is a season of preparation for Holy Week and Easter, and in the early church it was a time to prepare catechumens before their baptisms on Easter. The observance of a forty-day fast (excluding Sundays) apparently began to emerge under the influence of the bishop Athanasius of Alexandria (ca. 296–373). While practices of fasting immediately before the Triduum (Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and Easter Sunday) had emerged early in church history, Athanasius deepened and extended these practices by advising his charges to abstain from sexual activity and eating, to practice charity, and to study scripture p 160 more intensively during the several weeks preceding Easter. Ascetic discipline thus became integral to Lent.
In the West, the season begins on Ash Wednesday, and the traditional texts for that service help to frame the purpose of the fast from the start. If we are tempted to think that our fasting can extract change from the divine through what evangelicals call “works righteousness,” we are sadly mistaken. Isaiah 58, which is read every year on Ash Wednesday, reminds the congregation that God is not impressed with mere rituals of piety. When we fast and then oppress those who work for us (v. 3), when we “fast only to quarrel and to fight,” when we fast only “to strike with a wicked fist” (v. 4), then we are rather missing the point. When we only bow our heads and put on sackcloth and ashes but go on living the same way (v. 5), we are merely going through the external motions. But this is not to say that the fast is merely for private spiritual devotion. It is about practicing justice. As the text says, “Is not this the fast that I choose: to loose the bonds of injustice, to undo the thongs of the yoke, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke? Is it not to share your bread with the hungry, and bring the homeless poor into your house; when you see the naked, to cover them, and not to hide yourself from your own kin” (Isa 58:6–7)? Embodying a community of justice and care for the poor will allow the true healing for a return to Yahweh. “Then your light shall break forth like the dawn, and your healing shall spring up quickly” (v. 8). By breaking our old habits that harm the oppressed, the hungry, the homeless, and the naked, we can open ourselves to becoming the community of hope that God calls his people to be. That is the true meaning of fasting in this prophetic text. Jesus himself confirms this impression on Ash Wednesday, when we hear the same passage from the Sermon on the Mount each year: we should not make a public display of our fasting, but we should fast and pray in ways that are unseen, secret, and quiet (Matt 6:1–6, 16–18). We are to practice a kind of detachment that re-orients us away from earthly treasure and toward heavenly treasure (Matt 6:19–21). But this does not imply an escape from the world; rather, it implies that we are to live toward the Kingdom right in the midst of our daily lives, as we fast quietly and see the kingdom in the small, everyday things we do.Scott Waalkes, The Fullness of Time in a Flat World: Globalization and the Liturgical Year, ed. Thomas Heilke, D. Stephen Long, and C. C. Pecknold, vol. 6, Theopolitical Visions (Eugene, OR: Cascade Books, 2010), 159–160.
I have never studied Lent.... except as a ideology Lent is not an ideology. Do you pray before you eat? before you sleep? Those are disciplines. Lent is a discipline - nothing less and nothing more. And Lent does have a biblical basis. Don't confuse the term with the practice.
Welll.... definite maybe here! Ideology is something taught by man... not God. So since Lent did not come from Scripture (not found as such in the Bible)... then it is an ideology created in the mind of man and taught by man for other men to follow. And as stated, during the Council of Nicea, in 325 AD.
As to prayer, communion and such.... as far as I know they came from God and can be found in Holy Writ.
In my humble opinion... [8-|]
(rubs hands together and smiles biggy)... Oooo how I wish we could get into a good study about this... but the LFPD... would not like it.... and I have agreed to play by their rules.... Maybe there is a place on the internet....????
Ideology is something taught by man
[quote]
Note especially that ideologies are systems of ideas not single ideas.
Faithlife does have the Maria von Trapp book!
https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/216645/around-the-year-with-the-von-trapp-family
I had to take a long walk today for an errand and I listened to a lot of this book as I walked. Maria was as fun as she was wise, and so full of energy. Parents especially will learn a lot from this book, even if they do not follow the liturgical year.
Ideology is something taught by man [quote] ideology [ˌīdēˈäləjē, ˌidēˈäləjē] NOUN a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy. "the ideology of democracy" synonyms: beliefs · ideas · ideals · principles · doctrine · creed · credo · teaching · [more]the ideas and manner of thinking characteristic of a group, social class, or individual. "a critique of bourgeois ideology" synonyms: system of belief · set of principles · statement of beliefs · [more] archaic the science of ideas; the study of their origin and nature.archaic visionary speculation, especially of an unrealistic or idealistic nature.
ideology [ˌīdēˈäləjē, ˌidēˈäləjē] NOUN
I guess I'm just too simplistic. I think of things as either coming from God, which would be found in God's word or coming from man, which would be found in some man's word. To be from God... would also be simple.... we can read about in God's word, the Bible. So, something like Lent.... if we cannot find it in God's word... then it must have come from man's word. And to further complicate the issue.... God inspiring His word to man, ended in 96 AD... with the completion of Revelation. And also Heb 1:1-2 tells us that God spoke through His son, and as far as I know.... God never fathered any other son than Jesus, which died and ascended to heaven.
And with 38,000 (and some say as many as 50,000) different "doctrines" or "ideologies" or "denominations" - it is very easy to get lost or caught up in man's words and be drawn away from God's words. Some men are very persuasive in their writings.
And this is one of the things I love about Logos.... a tool to help me discern all this! [8-|]
Faithlife does have the Maria von Trapp book! https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/216645/around-the-year-with-the-von-trapp-family I had to take a long walk today for an errand and I listened to a lot of this book as I walked. Maria was as fun as she was wise, and so full of energy. Parents especially will learn a lot from this book, even if they do not follow the liturgical year.
A pity they don’t have the book itself. I do better with words than audio.
I'm not shutting down Logos for Lent.... and I don't see the Bible saying much about Lent .... but then I'm not Catholic.
Many, many non-Catholic Christians (myself included) observe lent. It's not just a Catholic thing (that includes many evangelical Christians).
As for the Bible not saying much about Lent, it does tell us that a certain important figure from Nazareth fasted in the wilderness for 40 days (and that the Spirit actually led him to do so).
Since the liturgical calendar helps the church walk through the coming, life, death, resurrection, ascension, etc. (rinse and repeat) of Jesus, the idea of Christians doing a 40 day fast leading up to the commemoration of Jesus' suffering, burial, and resurrection is not un-biblical. It's liturgically biblical in the macro sense.
Maybe practice reading your bible with the rest of the church (Logos is a great help for that). Not trying to be snarky. It's a serious suggestion. I have grown in my faith immensely as I have increasingly committed to studying the bible in the broader context of the church's worship. The gospels (and the rest of the NT) were produced by worshipping communities and addressed to worshipping communities for their edification and strengthening in their faith (see Luke 1:1-4 and John 20:30-31). They weren't written in a vacuum or for individual consumption, and they weren't meant to be read that way either.
I'm not shutting down Logos for Lent.... and I don't see the Bible saying much about Lent .... but then I'm not Catholic. Many, many non-Catholic Christians (myself included) observe lent. It's not just a Catholic thing (that includes many evangelical Christians). As for the Bible not saying much about Lent, it does tell us that a certain important figure from Nazareth fasted in the wilderness for 40 days (and that the Spirit actually led him to do so). Since the liturgical calendar helps the church walk through the coming, life, death, resurrection, ascension, etc. (rinse and repeat) of Jesus, the idea of Christians doing a 40 day fast leading up to the commemoration of Jesus' suffering, burial, and resurrection is not un-biblical. It's liturgically biblical in the macro sense. Maybe practice reading your bible with the rest of the church (Logos is a great help for that). Not trying to be snarky. It's a serious suggestion. I have grown in my faith immensely as I have increasingly committed to studying the bible in the broader context of the church's worship. The gospels (and the rest of the NT) were produced by worshipping communities and addressed to worshipping communities for their edification and strengthening in their faith (see Luke 1:1-4 and John 20:30-31). They weren't written in a vacuum or for individual consumption, and they weren't meant to be read that way either.
I appreciate your comments. Thanks for sharing. One slight correction, which I am sure you meant, would be to say that the Bible came from God, not worshiping communities. No where do I find that God allows any man or any group of men to think for Him. This includes the gospels and the rest of the New Testament.
And one thing I will add.... I believe with all my heart that every human being has the right to believe and worship however they want to. God didn't stop that, neither did Jesus Christ.... and I believe it would be a sin to take away that human will and right of man. I am learning, as I am sure others are, and I respect that.
Thanks
One slight correction, which I am sure you meant, would be to say that the Bible came from God, not worshiping communities.
I'm sorry but your correction is inappropriate. A large chunk of Christianity (as well as other religions) has come to see scripture as being defined by the worshipping community. Think of someone who has never heard of any religion stuck in a room with the scriptures of all the major religions on earth - each book bound separately i.e., no collections. Do you believe that person would pick out a canon that matched the Christian canon perfectly (never mind that there is no single Christian canon)? That is the "problem" that seeing the Scripture as a product of the worshipping community tries to answer. It neither negates nor affirms that Scripture came from God -- that is simply a different issue.
I guess I'm just too simplistic.
My objection was to your Humpty Dumpty use of words - when you need to use a word in something other than its common meaning, please define your use of it. My apologies -- I know I drive people nuts with my insistence on precision.
---- Well I don't know..... but I do believe that a person who has never studied the Bible could set down and study well enough to know what God expects of him. And in that vein, some people who have been in some denomination .... have studied there way out of that denomination and into what they thought God wanted them to be. I believe this because I believe, down to the bottom of my socks, that God's word can be and should be understood.
I guess I'm just too simplistic. My objection was to your Humpty Dumpty use of words - when you need to use a word in something other than its common meaning, please define your use of it. My apologies -- I know I drive people nuts with my insistence on precision.
---- I guess, I'm not understanding you use of "Humpty Dumpty" use of words???? Believe me, I am not that fragile. You see, I only speak English... lol [8-|]
Edit: And I have never found where God authorized common man to "speak the mind of God" unless they read it out of there Bible. And I say further... I have never met a man that had the "inspiration of God" so he could forthly speak. So I speak from what I've read... what I've see and what I have come to know as truth....
but I do believe that a person who has never studied the Bible could set down and study well enough to know what God expects of him.
Changing the topic doesn't tell me if you understood my comments or why your "correction" was inappropriate.
Humpty Dumpty use of words
From Alice in Wonderland ... recently used by a judge in ruling against D. Trump's lawyers
“When I Use a Word”: Humpty Dumpty on Evangelicalism – Covenant (livingchurch.org)"> When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
but I do believe that a person who has never studied the Bible could set down and study well enough to know what God expects of him. Changing the topic doesn't tell me if you understood my comments or why your "correction" was inappropriate. Humpty Dumpty use of words From Alice in Wonderland ... recently used by a judge in ruling against D. Trump's lawyers “When I Use a Word”: Humpty Dumpty on Evangelicalism – Covenant (livingchurch.org)"> When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
If I have mis-spoke..???
All I have mentioned is that I do not find "LENT" nor the teachings of such things... in the word of God... Not in my Bible or its various translations at least. That was the sum of the subject. I don't know much about Humpty Dumpty.... except that he was all cracked up....
So I speak from what I've read... what I've see and what I have come to know as truth....
Unfortunately, the first requirement for speaking out Truth is to understand what the other person has said. I could paraphrase your side of this discussion as "The Bible doesn't speak of fasting, praying, reading scripture, following Jesus' life ..." therefore no Lent. I could take your argument to the extreme and say "The Bible doesn't mention the Greek alphabet; therefore, everything written in Greek is of man, not God. Yes, I am exaggerating in hopes of getting you to see the importance of being more nuanced. In these forums, We don't care what you believe beyond your affiliation or self-identification assists us in recommending appropriate resources. And shouting your beliefs from the mountaintops is unlikely to change our beliefs -- most Logos/Verbum users in the forums have spent much time refining their beliefs in light of the insights they gain through the tool. What does work is asking intelligent questions and listening to the answers -- that leads to nooks and crannies of scripture and theology that force you to grow in your faith.
Despite the temptation, which is great, I'll not engage further on this topic.
May I suggest this......
MJ.... I think you are a great help on the forum... I have and do appreciate most of the comments you comment about to help others and guide others in the use of Logos software. I also appreciate you knowledge of the software. You have helped me many times, and I thank you for it.
My suggestion is... I don't want you nor I to be in trouble with the Logos Forum Police Department in such a way that they might "put us in jail". While I love to discus the Word of God... greatly... maybe we should cool it .... I don't know what the bail bond might be to get out of Logos jail. Just a thought.
So I speak from what I've read... what I've see and what I have come to know as truth.... Unfortunately, the first requirement for speaking out Truth is to understand what the other person has said. I could paraphrase your side of this discussion as "The Bible doesn't speak of fasting, praying, reading scripture, following Jesus' life ..." therefore no Lent. I could take your argument to the extreme and say "The Bible doesn't mention the Greek alphabet; therefore, everything written in Greek is of man, not God. Yes, I am exaggerating in hopes of getting you to see the importance of being more nuanced. In these forums, We don't care what you believe beyond your affiliation or self-identification assists us in recommending appropriate resources. And shouting your beliefs from the mountaintops is unlikely to change our beliefs -- most Logos/Verbum users in the forums have spent much time refining their beliefs in light of the insights they gain through the tool. What does work is asking intelligent questions and listening to the answers -- that leads to nooks and crannies of scripture and theology that force you to grow in your faith.
My friend.... you greatly misunderstood me. I contend that if a doctrine is to be taught such that other humans are to follow it... then that doctrine should be found in the word of God. Fasting is taught, praying is taught, reading and studying God's word is taught... and therefore we should practice such.... but Lent is not taught..... if you content it is.... by all means .... show forth.... because as I have said..... I missed it. Which may be true....
To forum members following this thread. If you are new to the forums, please provide some minimal information on your account page. If you provide your denomination or other affiliation and your country or state, I find it much easier to figure out how to answer you especially what vocabulary you use and understand. It also is required to get an annual birthday coupon.
Faithlife does have the Maria von Trapp book! A pity they don’t have the book itself. I do better with words than audio.
I don't think an ebook is available anywhere. I think there was a Kindle ebook that was pulled for quality issues. Often when you find an audio with no navigation, the ebook didn't have navigation either. The complaints and returns for the ebook are often more numerous and it gets pulled. Also the ebook might have been illustrated. When the illustrations don't work, that results in ebooks getting pulled too. I would rather a messy ebook than an audio for this book.
All I have mentioned is that I do not find "LENT" nor the teachings of such things... in the word of God... Not in my Bible or its various translations at least.
Logos sells all sorts of modern books and resources that help a church read through the bible and worship. They are used by fewer people, cost more, and have fewer supplementary resources. These resources reinvent the wheel. Over and over and over. Instead of churches working together over time, each set of resources get abandoned before they are completed and the churches start over with another newer and "better" plan. Over and over and over.
The longevity and widespread use of a reading and worship plan doesn't make it more unbiblical than one that is newer and designed to be disposable.
I am realizing that doing a topic study for Lent might be better than trying to find a single book.
Excellent Idea!! One of the things I do when I start a study about a topic, such as Lent, is to research where the idea or doctrine or teaching came from. I ask myself this question every time. I would suggest it might be a good place for you to start.
I love learning about God's word.... I am not much on learning about man's word.... sorry.
In the COC that’s what most people claim, but the reality is SO much different. We claim to speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where the Bible is silent, but that’s hardly the case for anyone (In fact, that slogan is not even original nor exclusive for us COC members). We also claim not to have creeds, but we do (Everybody has a creed). We claim not to have catechisms, but we do. And the list could go on. The thing is we just call it a different name.
There is much profit from learning about man’s word; after all, we use John Calvin, Adam Clark, John Wesley and even some baptists quotes to support why we don’t use Mechanical Instrumental Music (Charles Spurgeon the guy that smoked).
We use other commentaries written by men to study the Bible.
I believe that as long as the concept is Biblical, we can use the word Lent, Creed, etc. just like we use Trinity, Incarnation, etc. It’s just a matter of getting educated on any particular subject.
DAL
Ps. Anyway, I’m not starting a DEBATE here LOL, I’m just throwing my two Biblical cents here to keep the conversation Biblical and friendly
👍😁👌
I found this site, that is interesting.
https://cwtc.gitlab.io/scriptural-bcp/index.html
In Logos we have multiple editions of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, which all include lent. The BCP at the link is the 1662.
This collect (prayer) is obviously the words of men, but if you click on each sentence of the prayer, all the scriptures that support each sentence are listed.
https://cwtc.gitlab.io/scriptural-bcp/collects_2.html
For example, this is the third sentence of the Ash Wednesday collect:
Create and make in us new and contrite hearts
Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a new and right spirit within me. Ps 51:17 The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. Is 66:2 All these things my hand has made, and so all these things are mine, says the Lord. But this is the one to whom I will look, to the humble and contrite in spirit, who trembles at my word. Ezek 36:26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. Luke 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even look up to heaven, but was beating his breast and saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!' Is 57:15 For thus says the high and lofty one who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with those who are contrite and humble in spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite. Eph 2:10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life. Eph 4:24 and to clothe yourselves with the new self, created according to the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.
Somewhere I read that the BCP was almost nothing but scripture and summaries of scripture, arranged to be read aloud, memorized, and recited by the mostly illiterate congregations, so that on their own, they would discover the truth.
I had wondered why the catechism was present but so short compared to the Westminster Catechism. I learned it was because the standardized schedule of reading of scripture accomplished the same goal as studying a longer catechism.
Although it was a few decades ago, the last study I saw gave Lutherans the prize for the highest percentage of their service being from scripture.
Interesting! It is interesting that Lutherans have both the one-year and three-year lectionaries, and it appears that at least some churches are free to choose whichever one that they want.
it appears that at least some churches are free to choose whichever one that they want.
Yes, it is not unusual to have a choice of lectionaries, to be able to use an unofficial lectionary e.g. Season of Creation Lectionary, Narrative Lectionary, Year D lectionary, the Uncommon lectionary . . . And a number of churches in effect use lectionaries but because they release them monthly or quarterly or ... would be aghast if one used the term.
it appears that at least some churches are free to choose whichever one that they want. Yes, it is not unusual to have a choice of lectionaries, to be able to use an unofficial lectionary e.g. Season of Creation Lectionary, Narrative Lectionary, Year D lectionary, the Uncommon lectionary . . . And a number of churches in effect use lectionaries but because they release them monthly or quarterly or ... would be aghast if one used the term.
I am trying to learn everyone's vocabulary, but it is tough. Thanks for the info!
If you could remember it or have access to it, I would be interested in knowing the name of that study? And was it done by Lutherans. [8-|]
I would be interested in knowing the name of that study?
I definitely don't remember.
And was it done by Lutherans
The irony of this thread (re: the OP's original question) is that I was trying to stay off of the Forums for Lent but came back briefly to report an issue, and this is what I find. "Every time I try to get out...they pull me back in!" as it were. I'm reminded of why I took a break in the first place.
Sigh, here goes:
One slight correction, which I am sure you meant, would be to say that the Bible came from God, not worshiping communities. No where do I find that God allows any man or any group of men to think for Him. This includes the gospels and the rest of the New Testament.
I said exactly what I meant, which is always my goal and intention. I don't see the scriptures being produced by worshipping communities AND coming from God as being mutually exclusive. But your comment is demonstrating my point, the importance of seeing God's word in the context of the worshipping communities that produced the scriptures (again, not a contradiction) and that still use them in their worship for their edification and strengthening in the faith, rather than viewing scripture as coming from God in a vacuum completely separate from the context of the people of God and their worship.
Let me get off here and resume my Forum fast...
The irony of this thread (re: the OP's original question) is that I was trying to stay off of the Forums for Lent but came back briefly to report an issue, and this is what I find. "Every time I try to get out...they pull me back in!" as it were. I'm reminded of why I took a break in the first place. Sigh, here goes: One slight correction, which I am sure you meant, would be to say that the Bible came from God, not worshiping communities. No where do I find that God allows any man or any group of men to think for Him. This includes the gospels and the rest of the New Testament.
I understand... and I wish you well with your forum fast....when that is over....
I will ask this question to think about (if I understand you correctly).... what man or worshiping community has the right to change God's word? I say none. So whatever "rules" "bylaws" or "creeds" etc. that the worshiping community comes up with are only "rules" and such that come from mere men not from God. It really is that simple.
God built the church through Jesus... and the rules, etc. for that church to worship, to be and to do.... also came from God not man. The division from this came when man did start making their own rules to worship and rules to act out their view of "Christianity" as was determined in there own minds. And that is why we have so many "different religious bodies" today. And maybe I have misunderstood you....
In my humble opinion.
