Security and Privacy Concern about Logos4 Phonning Home
Dear Logos,
I am becomming concerned about how much and how often Logos4 "Phones Home", as a normal part of its operation.
Examples include:
1) Checking for updates
2) Syncing Page-Marks after every move, scroll, search, or operation
3) Syncing of Notes, Highlights, Passage Lists etc ...
4) Homepage News etc
5) Download error reporting as documented in http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4.0b_SR-2
My wish is for Logos4 to NEVER attempt any Internet access at any time, if I turn "Use Internet" to off!!!
I accept than all above features wont then work, buts thats OK by me. I will elect to enable Internet from time-to-time, but I want it to be my choice please.
I am almost at the point I am considering adding a firewall rule so I can place a 100% block on the program(s) used by Logos4. I can then enable/disable the rule as required.
I have seen others make comments with some of these views.
Bottom line: Please make "Use Internet" = NO do as it says. Thats all I need to be happy in this regard.
Comments
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The one thing you failed to provide in your post is what your concern is. What about "phoning home" causes your concern? As for the error reporting, do you have the same concern with respect to your operating system?The easiest solution for making all your software not phone home is to go with a modem on a phone line.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It might be interesting to note under the product tab on this web site the top 100 things of L4. Especially how central the role Logos computers play in backing up your licenses and files from a newspaper metaphor interface. I suspect that ultimately that the evolution of this product will be very much a total push technology where we would buy a subscription to a centralized "library" or sets of "libraries" (such as classical) that we can use from our own computer(s). We will really own nothing other than opportunities to access large databases of information. From this perspective there will be nothing private about using this software in that it will be (maybe) based on every changing interfaces and libraries on Logos computers...if you want to use it you will dial home for it so to speak.
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Jim Towler said:
My wish is for Logos4 to NEVER attempt any Internet access at any time, if I turn "Use Internet" to off!!!
Simple, on "Program Settings" turn off "Automatically Download Updates" AND "Use Internet" problem solved. Hope this helps.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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MJ. Smith said:
The one thing you failed to provide in your post is what your concern is.
MJ, You just have to accept that this is important to me, and I am asking Logos for a formal reply to my concern here.
As for other programs, to the maximum extent possible, I disable all automated updates, usage feedback, quality-of-service reporting, and just about anything else I can turn off.
In some cases, I place a firewall block on the program if I can, or uninstall it, and use something else, or go without. Its MY COMPUTER and MY CALL on this mater.
In Logos, I want "Use Internet = NO" to do what it says, and NOT phone home. Its simple really.
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Jim Towler said:
In Logos, I want "Use Internet = NO" to do what it says, and NOT phone home. Its simple really.
Hi Jim,
Have you tried my suggestion above? The feature you are requesting, is available in Logos 4 though via a different way.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Jim Towler said:
You just have to accept that this is important to me,
Sorry for prying - I was merely interested because I like to understand others' reactions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ted,
Thanks for the feedback. YES, I already run with Automatic=OFF, and generally also Internet=OFF, but Logos4 does not respect that flag at all times.
If one runs the command "Update Now", "Sync Now", clicks the Homepage, and a few other options, the program still phones home. Those are not too much concern for me, as they are manual choices. However, its the "creeping" that is the concern.
For example, the download error reporting in http://wiki.logos.com/Logos_4.0b_SR-2 phones home on an error. Again, this of itself, is not a big problem. If Logos4 is failing on a download, its because I am wanting to update something or get a new resource I have purchased. In that case, of course I want the resource updated, and any error fixed. And of course Logos knows who I am, and want I just purchased, and what I am attempting to download.
My concern is the "creep" and complete loss of control of when, how much, and what about is in that comms transfer.
Others have spoken of their concerns about their study notes, prayer lists, or specific search needs getting uploaded to Logos, when that content may be extremly private, and with the ability to cause harm to a third party.
Invented Story Follows:
Imagine I add "Bob Smith" to my prayer list, then makes some notes about going with one or two others, to correct a brother, and then I search for verses about correction and something about sexual sins?
How much do I owe it to Bob Smith (invented name) to keep his story private in the extreme?
Repeat: Invented story above.
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MJ. Smith said:
Sorry for prying - I was merely interested because I like to understand others' reactions.
MJ,
Sorry if I came over stronger than I intended.
I am seeking for Logos to accept this as a matter of concern to some people. At least me, but I have seen it from others:
There are MANY forum posts where some are seeking both notification and control over what is downloaded. I have also see where Bob Pritchet said we cant have that. Its his company and product but I must disagree with him in that regard. I too want download control. But thats not the focus of my post here.
What we really need is to be able to have "Internet=ON or OFF", but "Sync=OFF" so we get updates, but my notes and usage never leaves my PC.
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Core interface technology of L4 seems to be an increasing integration of Logos based computers interacting with private computers. The only thing that guarantees privacy is trust toward the ethical behavior of Logos employees and their technology. The price for increased bells, whistles, and pretty technology maybe a theoretical problem called privacy. If one wants to understand corporate benevolence try to sell your license.
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ReneAtchley said:
The only thing that guarantees privacy is trust toward the ethical behavior of Logos employees and their technology.
Thanks for your comments.
If I could elect to NOT sync my personal content to Logos, then I would not need to consider if I trust them or not. Also, for the invented example I gave above, its something to not share with someone not matter how much I trust them. If its not their story, I can't tell them, no matter what.
"I'm going to tell you a secret, but please dont tell anyone OK. I'm telling you because I trust you"
Sadly, that model fails at some point. We are called to a higher standard sometimes. Don't tell anyone, no matter what!
P.S. Logos is in fact a great model of a company that one can trust, and YES, you can sell and transfer your Logos license. Really: They are a great company. But this is NOT what my original post is about.
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Jim Towler said:
Others have spoken of their concerns about their study notes, prayer lists, or specific search needs getting uploaded to Logos, when that content may be extremly private, and with the ability to cause harm to a third party.
I am one of those Jim, who have raised this and value my private data.
I wouldn't put any plain text into any PC/ElectronicGizmo "with the ability to cause harm to a third party" even if it had no internet connection
Should you decide to, then I can only suggest you adopt a personal cyper, as once coded ( only you know about your code) you could put "Spoke to Bob Smith about his "Lifestyle Choices", if anyone gained access they would be clueless as to what exactly you mean.. and if thats not enough could be recorded as some other innocuous thing: "Ice Cream Cravings","Fishing Tackle","Train Set","Painting" or whatever , but likewise only you know the REAL decode key.
If its that private, I personally would not be recording it except in a private paper journal, and even there if its really sensitive it would be coded..
However, having had a harddrive die on me, the fact I am was able to get back up-to-date data immediately when reinstalling was a great benefit, it is also very helpful especially when you travel.
The sad reality is the danger is more likely to come from your local data, someone you know who also knows Bob Smith, accessing your PC when you walk away leaving it unprotected (to get your coffee, restroom, wc, etc), rather than the Logos (server) end
Whilst I also agree NO should mean NO, have come round to seeing the benefits of the cloud.. especially when mobile..
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Jim Towler said:
YES, I already run with Automatic=OFF, and generally also Internet=OFF, but Logos4 does not respect that flag at all times.
If one runs the command "Update Now", "Sync Now", clicks the Homepage, and a few other options, the program still phones home. Those are not too much
Jim,
I have software on my PC that can intercept any internet access from Logos. I have never noticed any internet access when Use Internet is set to OFF. If you believe you can reproduce this behaviour, let me know the steps, and I'll check it for you. (Note that you have to restart Logos when changing that setting for it to take effect.)
Mark
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
If you believe you can reproduce this behaviour, let me know the steps, and I'll check it for you.
Mark,
With "Internet=OFF", if you do any of the following:
1) Run the command "Update Now"
2) Command "Sync Now"
3) Go to the Home Page (to change your prefered Bible)
At one level, its not too unexpected that (1) or (2) might still override the OFF setting, my prefered result would be a silent "do nothing / NOP" or a small dialog or status about command not processed due to no internet access. Just as the auto-syncing puts a small yellow alert symbol in the top right if there really is no internet at all.My concern is NOT with the specific (1), (2) and (3) above, but rather that the Logos4 application does NOT respect the OFF switch.
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Mark Barnes said:
I have software on my PC that can intercept any internet access from Logos. I have never noticed any internet access when Use Internet is set to OFF.
Mark,
Thanks for mentioning that you verified that the Logos Internet traffic can be entirely stopped. I use VoIP with GoToMeeting and my upload Internet connection speed just meets their recommended minimum of 384 kbps. Since I don't have any headroom, I'm concerned about stopping any unnecessary internet traffic. Before using VoIP, I turn the internet off in Logos and and turn off auto updates and notifications in Windows XP and Outlook.
What is the software you use to intercept (can it also monitor?) Internet access? I have many applications installed and like to see if they access the internet.
Thanks in advance,
Scott
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Jim Towler said:
1) Run the command "Update Now"
2) Command "Sync Now"
3) Go to the Home Page (to change your prefered Bible)Why would you run the commands if you didn't want to over-ride your global Internet setting? It's unlikely that you could run these commands by accident.
I agree that the Home Page should be restricted from using the internet if that setting is off, if an homepage can't be generated without Internet then a message to that effect should be displayed. As a work-around you can change the top bible on your priority list and that will do the same as using the tool on the home page.
Prov. 15:23
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JIm it really doesn't matter if we perceive Logos to be a great company or not even with a good reputation. What matters, I would argue, is the product on each of our hard drives and what it does now and what it is likely to do in the future. To note that a consumer has privacy issues with software that has core push technology and increasing integration of such technology is to argue how much privacy the end user has....which addresses directly the original post imo. Its sort of like asking your mom for the keys to the family car then complaining that she always know where were going to.
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Kevin,
My point about "Update Now" is NOT about why I would make a request when I don't want it to phone home.
The point is that Logos4 does NOT respect the OFF switch.
As for preferred Bible, I change it offen. At present, I tend to prefer to use ESV for Intelinear stuff, but NIV as the one I most remember, so like for reading. So I swap back and forward often.
(It would be nice if I could use "Set default bible to ESV" or "Set default bible to NIV" and make two command buttons, but this thread is not about this topic.)
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Scott S said:
What is the software you use to intercept (can it also monitor?) Internet access? I have many applications installed and like to see if they access the internet.
For Logos I use Fiddler2. It allows me not just to monitor whether Logos is sending data, but also what it is sending/receiving. This will also work for any other applications that respect proxy settings. There are simpler programs available if you just want to monitor whether an application is sending data. Your firewall software, for example, may do this already.
I'm not at home right now, but when I get home I'll check whether Logos is really respecting Internet=NO. Initial tests seem to confirm that it is, however (despite appearances, admittedly).
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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There NEEDS to be a way to absolutely tell Logos not to use the internet at all. Missionaries in closed countries may set Internet Use to No and think that their computer won't be connecting. One of my best friends is in a closed country where he can't have his computer connecting to Logos when he connects to the web.
Logos, for the safety of those risking their lives for the gospel, please make sure that when internet=No it does not use the internet at all (or confirm for us that this is the case)
Plea
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
If I had very personal counseling/prayer records on my computer I would use something very simple, like Notepad to keep them. I would not put those type of records/data in Logos anymore than I would put them in Facebook.....but, that's just my opinion....
I use Logos for Bible study only...I have separate areas where I keep my prayer lists....
Chuck
Laptop: Lenovo P580 - 15.6" IdeaPad Laptop
- 6GB Memory - 750GB Hard Drive - Windows 7
Iphone5s Logos 7, Bronze0 -
Jim Towler said:
I am almost at the point I am considering adding a firewall rule so I can place a 100% block on the program(s) used by Logos4. I can then enable/disable the rule as required.
This seems like a reasonable solution. If I had privacy concerns in my use of any program, I would pursue this route (especially in the case of missionaries in closed countries). Even if Logos said that the Use Internet switch shut of all network access, it's a prudent decision to have a second layer of security in the firewall. Plus it would give you more fine-grained control than I suspect Logos would considered implementing themselves (for simplicity's sake).
MacBook Pro (2019), ThinkPad E540
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Jim Towler said:
Invented Story Follows:
Imagine I add "Bob Smith" to my prayer list, then makes some notes about going with one or two others, to correct a brother, and then I search for verses about correction and something about sexual sins?
How much do I owe it to Bob Smith (invented name) to keep his story private in the extreme?
I had never considered this as a concern because I do not use Logos in this way but it has made me think about how important the privacy of my data is.
I'm also now wondering about the legal implications with reference to the UK's Data Protection laws for anyone who uses the prayer lists... There are restrictions on how and where data is stored this might be a real can of worms as what you can and can not store in synchronised files could depend on what country you are in!
Logos may have to allow control of synchronisation on a file by file level so that we can use the files and comply with local laws.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Jim Towler said:
Sadly, that model fails at some point. We are called to a higher standard sometimes. Don't tell anyone, no matter what!
P.S. Logos is in fact a great model of a company that one can trust, and YES, you can sell and transfer your Logos license. Really: They are a great company. But this is NOT what my original post is about.
Jim, Although many may think your concerns extreme, they are still valid concerns if you happen to be a Pastor using your Logos software to help counsel -per your fictional example. Logos does go further than many banking institutions in securing your privacy. I also believe Logos employees are, on the whole, trustworthy. But it only takes one failure in the wall of security to facilitate a loss. Other corporations have lost millions of private records in one security breach. But realistically any thieves or snoopers will be looking for a way of financial gain and most juicy gossip is worthless unless it can be used for blackmail purposes. This would not lessen the pain from loss of trust and privacy. So for total security you either need to avoid synching at all (unreasonable due to the software design) or avoid putting any personal identifiable information in your notes(difficult.)
Check out this for a little reassurance about Logos security: http://www.logos.com/about/sitesecurity
And your privacy: http://www.logos.com/about/privacyLogos 7 Collectors Edition
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Graham Owen said:Jim Towler said:
Invented Story Follows:
Imagine I add "Bob Smith" to my prayer list, then makes some notes about going with one or two others, to correct a brother, and then I search for verses about correction and something about sexual sins?
How much do I owe it to Bob Smith (invented name) to keep his story private in the extreme?
I had never considered this as a concern because I do not use Logos in this way but it has made me think about how important the privacy of my data is.
I'm also now wondering about the legal implications with reference to the UK's Data Protection laws for anyone who uses the prayer lists... There are restrictions on how and where data is stored this might be a real can of worms as what you can and can not store in synchronised files could depend on what country you are in!
Logos may have to allow control of synchronisation on a file by file level so that we can use the files and comply with local laws.
People who are concerned about security should always carefully read the EULA that comes with virtually every piece of software you can get (free or paid for). If the level of privacy/security is not what you want, either pursue the matter with the company or don't use the software. Period. Logos has been quite open about how it uses our data. We users should exercise responsibility in how we use this (or any other) program. I agree that Logos4 is not a good place to store any confidential information.
BTW, the Logos EULA is quite short and simple. Here's the part on online backup:
ONLINE BACKUP
Data
you enter into the Software, including notes, settings, preferences, and
documents, will be automatically backed up to Logos.com over the
Internet, and downloaded to other instances of the Software logged in
using your email and password. This automatic synchronization helps you
access your content on multiple computers and may be used to let you use
your own data online. Logos will not share your data without your
permission, but may examine it programmatically for anonymous
statistical purposes or in order to provide technical support.DO NOT
STORE HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION IN THE SOFTWARE. The Software is
designed for consumer reference and study purposes, and while we will
take all precautions to protect your data, we cannot ensure the level of
security you would expect from online banking or other highly secure
services.You are
responsible to keep the password associated with your Logos.com login
private. It is the primary means of security for data synchronized
through the Software.Notice the ALL-CAP section telling us not to store highly confidential information in the software. That's our responsibility. Not Logos'.
While we may request additional security measures that would make our lives simpler, it seems patently obvious to me, that it is our responsibility to use the software appropriately within its design constraints, until such time as those constraints may change.
For this and other reasons, I don't use Logos' prayer list, nor would I store any information that may harm a brother or sister (even potentially) on my computer unless I had the ability to encrypt the file with a password. I do not consider any level of security below password-protected encryption to be high enough for a responsibile level of pastoral confidentiality.
Imagine a friend, or family member, using your computer, and Logos4 for some purpose and stumbling upon your confidential information. Even if Logos didn't sync the info, it's still not confidential, if its available to anyone who might borrow your copy of Logos for a quick look-up, or a demo, let alone an office snoop, or the like.
My point is that confidentiality is primarily a user issue.
I have no personal concerns about my privacy and the way Logos uses my information, and consider the two issues separate. Privacy=protecting my personal information; Confidentiality=protecting the information entrusted to me by/about another.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Chuck P. said:
If I had very personal counseling/prayer records on my computer I would use something very simple, like Notepad to keep them. I would not put those type of records/data in Logos anymore than I would put them in Facebook.....but, that's just my opinion....
<rant>I watch these threads with some amount of astonishment at the total lack of understanding about the meaning and importance of privacy in our lives. I suspect this is going to hit home at some point in the future, but it's going to take a lot more than a few lectures on a board to convince people just how important this stuff is. It would be a good exercise for every pastor on this board to read a good security blog on a regular basis--for instance, Bruce Schneier.</rant>
Now, let me point out a specific answer to the suggestion above--just don't keep private data in the software. Let me ask--what, specifically, do you classify as "private data?" Did you include the metadata as well as the data? Let me throw out an example. You're the pastor of a large church. Someone sees Sally walk into your office. An hour later, she walks out with tear stains running down her face. This person contacts someone else, who happens to, somehow, have access to your logos layout snapshot. Looking at these, they find the verses you've referenced during Sally's visit all relate to adultery.
So what's private about when Sally walks into and out of your office? And what's private about what you looked up in your Bible software? This is the slippery slope of metadata. And this is where google, for instance, makes their living; collecting metadata about you, and turning it into actionable information.
Ah, but Logos would never release such information. Which is just saying that we have to trust Logos, which is just saying we have to trust people.
Ah, but no-one would ever go to this sort of trouble to find something out. Really? If you think this, you totally underestimate the level of evil resident in human beings.
Look, folks, I know most of you won't take this seriously. I know most people think, "if I've done nothing wrong, I've nothing to hide." Great, but remember that hiding doesn't always have to do with "doing something wrong." Or those who say, "I'm willing to die for my faith." Great, but are you willing to live for your faith, even if it means hiding your faith so you can reach and teach others?
Let's not poo-poo these privacy concerns.
Russ
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Jim Towler said:
With "Internet=OFF", if you do any of the following:
1) Run the command "Update Now"
2) Command "Sync Now"
3) Go to the Home Page (to change your prefered Bible)
...My concern is NOT with the specific (1), (2) and (3) above, but rather that the Logos4 application does NOT respect the OFF switch.
When I read this, what I see is that you're concerned that Logos 4 doesn't respect the off switch when you tell it to not respect the off switch. Fundamentally, that's what those commands are: instructions to the program to disregard your internet setting and override it on the basis of your own user authority.
As others have said, your idea of blocking Logos in the firewall is probably the best idea. Considering your concerns about privacy, I'm surprised you haven't already. It would have been a good secondary precaution.'
Another option would be to disconnect from the internet right before you open the program and select the "work offline" option at login and then reconnect. But that would be a bit of a hassle...
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Richard DeRuiter said:
For this and other reasons, I don't use Logos' prayer list
I suspect most of us who know enough about computers know about the importance of care in storing data, the only information anyone will get if they hack into my synchronised files will be ideas and thoughts and as I'm not planning a major book and I'm also not sure how original they are the risk for me is pretty low.
There is however a contradiction between an EULA that says:
Richard DeRuiter said:DO NOT
STORE HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION IN THE SOFTWAREAnd a software package that includes a prayer list.
I don't think that it would be unreasonable to assume that a lot of Pastors could miss the statement in the EULA and fall into the 'trap' that Jim has described.
Richard DeRuiter said:My point is that confidentiality is primarily a user issue.
Which is why I don't let anyone use my personal user on my personal PC because when all is said and done the biggest risk for anything confidential that I store on my PC is it falling into the hands of someone who can make sense of it and the reality is that someone who knows me is more likely to make sense of it than someone in Bellingham!
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Privacy seems like a primary concern for me, and perhaps others, in a software world that seems to think at times that my computer is a smart terminal for their software. One issue that may need to be addressed is the increasing integration of my computer (and interface) with their own servers as part of the core architecture of this software. What next in L5 an AI that "helps" me to choose the right tools to do "proper" exegesis and reports the results back to the great brain at Logos.
I hesitate to purchase any further upgrades as this smart terminal architecture seems to be evolving for many reasons including privacy. I'm a human out here not a profit unit for a marketing campaign for the next generation of Logos enhanced and totally different interface. Privacy is a key issue in the Western context just because we are alive and breath...and thats good enough I think.
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Ted Hans said:
Simple, on "Program Settings" turn off "Automatically Download Updates" AND "Use Internet" problem solved.
Call me confused by this thread! When i have done the above "ADU" & "UI", it stops all internet traffic. I even get the option to select work offline when i start up . I am surprised that some are suggesting this is not the case. Or perhaps i am not understanding the issue as i ought to. So the "work offline" does not work but it seems to work for me.
Ted
Edit: Posted before i saw Mike Aubrey's comment above.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Russ White said:
Someone sees Sally walk into your office. An hour later, she walks out with tear stains running down her face.
This could cause enough problems without any help from Logos...
Russ White said:Ah, but Logos would never release such information. Which is just saying that we have to trust Logos, which is just saying we have to trust people.
The whole trust thing really breaks down when you consider that we have to trust in the ability of those who own and manage Logos to ensure that everyone they employ, who has access to our material can be trusted which means that its not just about trusting people its about trusting peoples ability to assess whether other people can be trusted.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Russ White said:
Now, let me point out a specific answer to the suggestion above--just don't keep private data in the software. Let me ask--what, specifically, do you classify as "private data?" Did you include the metadata as well as the data? Let me throw out an example. You're the pastor of a large church. Someone sees Sally walk into your office. An hour later, she walks out with tear stains running down her face. This person contacts someone else, who happens to, somehow, have access to your logos layout snapshot. Looking at these, they find the verses you've referenced during Sally's visit all relate to adultery.
From my reading of the EULA and other reading about what is sync'ed, your specific example fails. Logos doesn't store or track our searches, and even if we allow it to collect usage data (which we also can turn off - except in beta testing), it does that anonymously and stores all that info in a data heap with everyone else's usage stat's. In other words Logos doesn't track this kind of meta data unless you allow it to do so, and then it does not do that in a way that can be traced back to a specific person, place, and time.
Now, if you created a verse list (coming in 4.0c), or a note file with those verses, or created a snap shot with that search page open, that data would be transferred to Logos and stored there until those files were overwritten.
Also, this tells me that those with privacy concerns (though I would use the term 'confidentiality' to describe your concern
- see my post above), should not use Logos in a confidential setting, in addition to storing confidential data in the system.That would be a good time to pull out your paper Bible, which may even have a concordance in the back (mine does).Once again, what I'm saying is not to ignore these confidentiality concerns, but to raise the bar above what Logos could provide, even if it didn't sync with 'the mother ship.' Let's suppose you didn't sync this data and someone walked in and looked at your layout history. You're in exactly the same boat, and such an operation would be much easier. Further, even erasing your tracks can be undone with freeware on the market, unless one erases with DOD level over-writing every time. The issue of confidentiality is not merely at the level of synchronization, but use, no matter how you slice the pie.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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[:D]ReneAtchley said:What next in L5 an AI that "helps" me to choose the right tools to do "proper" exegesis and reports the results back to the great brain at Logos.
ReneAtchley said:I'm a human out here not a profit unit for a marketing campaign for the next generation of Logos enhanced and totally different interface.
Change is unavoidable. Change is always uncomfortable. Paradigm shifts are the only way to embrace the future. Logos is only attempting to deliver what the users need. The vision appears to be "Deliver a seemless, highly productive Bible study vehicle." The inclusion of Prayer lists in a cloud based application makes the "unspoken" prayer requests a lot more sensical these days. Just don't enter any private data and you should fare just well for the foreseeable future. If somebody did not watch the bottom line of financial responsibility, Logos would go bankrupt quickly. I am glad they are counting beans.
ReneAtchley said:I hesitate to purchase any further upgrades as this smart terminal architecture
"Smart terminal" technology & push marketing are already here. Your ISP uses it on your email page. Your browser uses your info to push ads. Your cable TV provider uses your info & your cell phone company. Even your G@@gle search returns are tailored for geographical and subject relevancy. We can embrace technology and harness it's power for the advancement of the Gospel message or we can exercise stricter separation from the world. I plan on doing more of both in the coming years.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I know Matthew this is the age of post-modernism and socially defined reality in which my perceptions are dependent on the cultural and social context of the reality that I exist in. The question is how does Logos know what I need as a user of its products? How does it determine what I need? For example I use an inductive English Bible method that is devoid of a "proper" historical-grammatical approach that can be readily be AI'd by the on board biblical expert from Logos. Who no doubt is part of the cutting edge paradigm shift that minimizes the human existential element in the objective (yet post-modern) approach to exegesis in future Logos software.
I would agree that it is best not to put personal data into Logos since the integration of what appears to be the elimination of the human element in the software architecture of Logos products. The issue at heart of privacy matters is the bottom line of Logos (imo) that can readily objectify consumers in the pursuit of the profit especially if Logos knows what is best for me and other users. You know if they can just make an extra few dollars per user unit by selling space on our L4 desk tops to a related Logos family business which then pushes their products to us...well that's ok too. Even the Luddite that I may be recognizes an inherent conflict of interest in a Christian business model that both advances the Kingdom of God on an individual basis while also maximizing profitability from those profit units at the other end of Logos network.
At this point I'm not sure that such a conflict exists. However, the early signs of consumerism overtaking Kingdom principles maybe exemplified in the issue of privacy and how it is handled by Logos. Paradigm shift....maybe...maybe not...but recognition that the City of Heaven can be at odds with the City of Earth has already been done I think.
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ReneAtchley said:
For example I use an inductive English Bible method that is devoid of a "proper" historical-grammatical approach that can be readily be AI'd by the on board biblical expert from Logos. Who no doubt is part of the cutting edge paradigm shift that minimizes the human existential element in the objective (yet post-modern) approach to exegesis in future Logos software.
That is rather poetically beautiful, isn't it? [:)] But I think we are reading much more into this than what Logos is up to. I believe they are seriously dedicated to Bible study, first & foremost. But like any preacher or Bible professor who accepts a paycheck, Logos does rely on an income to feed their families and ensure the health of the company for future needs.
At the risk of offending some, I tallied my Logos resource purchases for the past 24 months. The current Logos sales prices go over $20,000. I did not pay that much of course. Through the many sales opportunities I saved a substantial amount of money. I do not consider push marketing as an offensive action. I have subscribed to receive notification of all pending Pre-Pub shipments and regularly scour the blog and product pages for savings. If Logos were greedy, they would not discount anything they have a monopoly on. But they do offer substantial discounts on a regular basis.
Logos is a Bible study tool, not a confidential counseling room. I don't mind digitized bits of Bible study flying through the ether. It beats all the disgusting content of the rest of the internet. If the evil Christ-haters want to find a Christian to persecute they can do so without resorting to intercepting our cloud-synching software.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I agree with the privacy issue that seems to be increasing with each new software update (not talking about Logos). But the bigger issue for me has been the Windows7 sleep mode. My PC began refusing to go to sleep, until I traced it to programs that want to maintain an internet connect (all hoping to be quite helpful). So I now look for any options to 'work offline', and set my firewall by program to disallow operating as a server. I've done the same with Logos4 and haven't had any problems with it trying to get around 'me'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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The definitive information about Logos internet access.
I have tested Logos with Internet=OFF, and confirm that with this setting:
- Manually running the command "Update Now" does connect to the internet.
- Manually running the command "Sync Now" does connect to the internet.
- Going to the home page or changing your preferred Bible does not connect to the internet.
I've been running Logos for quite a while with the internet setting turned off, and monitoring what it does. Apart from me issuing those manual commands, it did not attempt to connect to the internet at all. I see this as perfectly acceptable - indeed, it is good that I can switch the internet connection off then manually over-ride the setting as a one-off with a command.
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
PS: I ran the tests with 4.0c beta 4.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
The definitive information about Logos internet access.
Thank you, Mark, for injecting some sanity into this thread. [8-|]
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Mark Barnes said:
The definitive information about Logos internet access.
Mark - Thanks for verifying this and replying to my earlier question. [:)]
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Jack Caviness said:
Thank you ... for injecting some sanity into this thread
Jack,
Please be careful with your comments. If the issues in this Forum Thread are of little internet to you, please put down your keyboard and take a walk outside for a while.
A number of people have expressed an important level of concern here, and I hope Logos takes note. If they have 100,000 customers, and only 500 or 1000 post here, then scale every viewpoint up by 1000 or so. For every one here, its safe to assume there are many others sharing variations on the same theme.
I am intending to explore blocking the sync functiions of Logos4, in the hope I can have a fully operatonal application, but to have none of my personal content ever be synced online. I dont currently have anything in Logos4 that would be of any concern to me, but I feel strongly about wanting to be able to turn it off.
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Just a couple of replies to different people:
[quote]The whole trust thing really breaks down when you consider that we have
to trust in the ability of those who own and manage Logos to ensure that
everyone they employ, who has access to our material can be trusted
which means that its not just about trusting people its about trusting
peoples ability to assess whether other people can be trusted.That's precisely my point--this is all about trusting Logos to do the right thing, all the time, in essence under all conditions. Not to sound mean or anything, but I don't know that everyone is going to trust any company to this level. I don't consider such people to be paranoid--I'm a good bit more paranoid than most, frankly, and have a healthy respect for paranoia.
[quote]From my reading of the EULA and other reading about what is sync'ed,
your specific example fails. Logos doesn't store or track our searches,
and even if we allow it to collect usage data (which we also can turn
off - except in beta testing), it does that anonymously and stores all
that info in a data heap with everyone else's usage stat's.Right now. Further, anonymity is highly overrated; the idea misses the point of metadata. For instance, if you think your social security number is somehow "private information," you're wrong. Researchers have recently shown they can "guess" your SSN based on nothing but your month and year of birth and the state (sometimes region) you were born in. Researchers have also proven they can identify you by following your location on a GPS--even if the location of your house is hidden form them, or if you live in an apartment complex with several thousand other people, and park in different places in that complex all the time.
Metadata is extremely powerful. This is an open and active area of research; you should never underestimate the amount of information that can be "found out" without any access to what you might consider "confidential information."
[quote]Once again, what I'm saying is not to ignore these confidentiality
concerns, but to raise the bar above what Logos could provide, even if
it didn't sync with 'the mother ship.' Let's suppose you didn't sync
this data and someone walked in and looked at your layout history.
You're in exactly the same boat, and such an operation would be much
easier. Further, even erasing your tracks can be undone with freeware on
the market, unless one erases with DOD level over-writing every time.
The issue of confidentiality is not merely at the level of
synchronization, but use, no matter how you slice the pie.There is a huge difference between someone being able to find something out about you by examining your hard drive and through observing disparate pieces of information that aren't, today, considered confidential in any way. There's no need to pick your door lock, is the point.
In the USAF, we used to call these "EEFIs"--essential elements of friendly information.
At any rate, my only point was to say I believe the concern is a real one, and shouldn't be cast off to the side. Logos should seriously consider designing a system where a person can work completely off line if they so choose, for whatever reason they might give. Again, I know a lot of folks here will think that's silly for a variety of reasons, but I consider it an essential point Logos needs to address at some point.
Russ
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Graham Owen said:
I'm also now wondering about the legal implications with reference to the UK's Data Protection laws for anyone who uses the prayer lists...
Can you explain this a bit further? What sort of thing are you expecting in the prayer list and what does the UK law protect?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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ReneAtchley said:
Privacy is a key issue in the Western context just because we are alive and breath
Sorry the devil made me do it? [:D] Are you implying that people not in the West aren't alive or breathing?
Seriously, I am suspicious that people over estimate the privacy of their off-line notes. I don't see a big difference between someone walking into an empty office and someone delving into electronic documents - except that the first is more apt to be done by someone who could interpret the information while the latter is more apt to be done solely to prove it can be done - the breaking in having the value rather than what is found there.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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ReneAtchley said:
since the integration of what appears to be the elimination of the human element in the software architecture of Logos products
Okay, I'm totally lost. The only place where I could possibly consider Logos as "eliminating the human element" is in the pre-analyzed, pre-parsed original language resources. Even there, Logos does not assume I unquestioningly accept one view. There are a number of places where Logos does not even provide the tools for eliminating the human element - AI tools, generative logic tools (argument mapping), robust raw text analysis ... What Logos provides are tools to assist one in understanding the basics of the original language, access to a wide variety of what others have seen in the text, a way to preserve our own observations so that we don't keep starting at "square one". Sounds alot like a moleskin notebook, a good fountain pen and a library to me. A whole lot faster and closer to home but ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I am not sure, as a modernist, about non Western people (if there are such beings) and what they are doing unless I have concrete proof of such actions (as a positivist).
It is surprising how little many people value their privacy on line. In a professional counseling context if private information about a client is released into the cyber world from a computer that professional has violated ethics of his or her vocation that can result in a lawsuit and loss of licensure for said counselor. Privacy is not an abstraction concerning some ethereal make believe hypothetical that at worst results in an incoherent position as much of theology tends to be imo. Privacy is about individuals, their lives, their spiritual health, physical, and mental well being that can be harmed when personal information is misused in whatever manner.
At issue is the basic nature of a software program and how it functions in the cyber world which can lead to real outcomes that can harm customers in the real world. Its not about a command line, corporate reputation, community trust, EULA, or even whether or not privacy has been violated int he past. Its about the changes in L4 and how it functions on individual computers at the present that may place consumers at risk. Perhaps, as with political issues, the only time many may become interested in this issue is when it effects them and their life...which means it already too late. Lack of corporate sensitivity to this in the design of software can be seen as spiritual fruit which consumers can use to judge the nature of the company he or she is dealing with for good or bad.
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Jim Towler said:
If the issues in this Forum Thread are of little internet to you
I hope you don't mind ... but this is an absolutely classic typo here [:D][:O]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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ReneAtchley said:
I am not sure, as a modernist, about non Western people (if there are such beings)
Thanks, I'm much closer to understanding what you mean.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I hope you don't mind
[:)] NO - I dont mind at all.
You cant believe how many times I read, and re-read, and re-read before I post or hit send.
I sometimes find I have completely wrong words, but spelt correctly, in the wrong places. I think my thinking and typing live on different planets at times.
Back to my comment you quoted: Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut, but I was attempting to make the point that this is important to those that think it is.
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Jack makes a succinct point with which I agree.
Logos is a tool and it has uses for which it is appropriate and uses for which it is inappropriate.
As a study tool - a sermon preparation tool - as a reference tool it is wonderful.
In the example given with the young lady leaving the office with tears in her eyes - it would imagine that having visited a pastor for a pastoral visit she would be crying because all he seemed to do was play with his computer.
I am bemused by the concept of a prayer list that requires so much detail that it could become compromising! Maybe I work in a completely different way but my list contains just a list of names or situations. If I can't remember what I am to pray about for that person for they probably won't benefit from my prayers.
My hammer doesn't have a rubber cushion so I don't hurt my thumb - some of the things necessary to protect confidential information would affect the usefulness of Logos for its prime purpose - which seems to me to be a portable - personal - bible reference tool.
There are probably quite a few who think along these lines too.
Tootle pip
Mike
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Jacob Hantla said:
Logos, for the safety of those risking their lives for the gospel, please make sure that when internet=No it does not use the internet at all (or confirm for us that this is the case)
I think part of the problem lies in the fact that Logos' main market (and target) is USA, but its reach is global. Situations in other countries can be very different from those pertaining in USA.
Logos needs to tailor its product delivery to serve this global constituency. Elsewhere in these forums there has been talk of subscription DVD updates, problems of internet access, poor download speeds, severe download limitations in some parts of the world. (Personally, switching to Logos 4 is costing me an extra £13 per month to cope with the extra, unpredictable download capacity Logos needs.) Logos needs to factor these into its product delivery model, so that without harming its main US market, it can meet the needs and concerns of global users.
Might I suggest the following:
- Internet=No means exactly that.
- Quarterly DVD Updates available by subscription.
- Notification of download available as an option instead of solely automatic downloads.
- Information about what these downloads comprise.
iMac Retina 5K, 27": 3.6GHz 8-Core Intel Core i9; 16GB RAM;MacOS 10.15.5; 1TB SSD; Logos 8
MacBook Air 13.3": 1.8GHz; 4GB RAM; MacOS 10.13.6; 256GB SSD; Logos 8
iPad Pro 32GB WiFi iOS 13.5.1
iPhone 8+ 64GB iOS 13.5.1
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Alan Macgregor said:
Might I suggest the following:
- Internet=No means exactly that.
- Quarterly DVD Updates available by subscription.
- Notification of download available as an option instead of solely automatic downloads.
- Information about what these downloads comprise.
#3 we already have, and it's been around since L4 shipped as far as I can recall:
When you have this set to No, instead of automatic downloads, you get a popup message like this, which you can refuse if you like (by clicking the X) and wait until a more opportune time (I think it will ask you again once per day as long as there are still updates you haven't downloaded), or until you decide to do it manually.
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