Topical Request (referenes)

If that were true, then I hope I get to keep my Chihuahua. She just turned 15 and is still active, but I know sooner or later she will depart from this world. Anyway, I don’t have any resources to recommend.

DAL

David Thomas

give me every work under the sun ancient or modern.

https://www.christianbook.com/heaven-randy-alcorn/9780842379427/pd/79422?utm_source=google&kw=heaven%20randy%20alcorn&mt=b&dv=c&event=PPCSRC&p=1018818&gclid=Cj0KCQjwof6WBhD4ARIsAOi65ajcHf0z0nN2VGZegAd0rPEA81flDcFqcEcuhQQ3dZNOf5EsfPpFXgMaAk9LEALw_wcB heavily anything that was part of the pre-fall created order is fair game for the new heaven and new earth.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216045#Comment_1216045

Thank you Randy for your suggestion!

DAL, I promise you you will see your dog again!

My keyboard is barely working.

Psalm 36, Genesis 9, 1 Corinthians 15, Romans 8

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216045#Comment_1216045

give me every work under the sun ancient or modern.

https://www.christianbook.com/heaven-randy-alcorn/9780842379427/pd/79422?utm_source=google&kw=heaven%20randy%20alcorn&mt=b&dv=c&event=PPCSRC&p=1018818&gclid=Cj0KCQjwof6WBhD4ARIsAOi65ajcHf0z0nN2VGZegAd0rPEA81flDcFqcEcuhQQ3dZNOf5EsfPpFXgMaAk9LEALw_wcB heavily anything that was part of the pre-fall created order is fair game for the new heaven and new earth.

Here’s the Faithlife ebook edition: https://www.logos.com/product/53881/heaven

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216115#Comment_1216115

I just realized the book Heaven by Randy Alcorn is available in audible! I have a credit coming up this month, so I will get it and listen to it 👍😁👌

I think NT Wright has a book similar to this one, it’s titled Surprised by Hope. It argues for a new heaven and new earth also. Here’s the link: https://www.logos.com/product/15827/surprised-by-hope

Many preachers are embracing this theology even among churches of Christ, which is my tradition. Interesting topic indeed! I will be studying it. Thanks for bringing it up 👍

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216118#Comment_1216118

Thanks DAL,

Honestly I new heaven and new earth is the theologically orthodox and biblical position. Scripture has no place for an ethereal platonic heaven.

The problem is not whether there will be animal life in the new earth. There will be. What I am trying to address is the resurrection of animals who have lived before the end.

Most good exegetes will say, from my observation, "the scripture doesn't address it." I could be wrong. Rushdoony (i don't remember which book. I saw this in the general search function of Logos) said Calvin thought animals would be resurrected but I haven't been able to find where Calvin actually said this. Looking at Calvin's commentary on Romans 8, Calvin seems to thinkits possible but he refrains from 'speculation' as he calls it.

There are no doubt, many bad exegetes, pretending to be Christians, who probably agree with me but for the wrong reasons. I can't go around citing progressives who reject the dominion mandate and dehumanize humanity.

I have that book by wright. I'm skimming it but it looks as if it goes unaddressed.

I'll take anything I can get tho, and reverse engineer it if I have to. I feel a little bit alone in taking this position because of how rarely it is addressed. Doug Wilson said that "all flesh being seed" addresses the matter because seed will grow (resurrect). I mean I agree with him but everywhere I go i see negative Nathans and Nancies saying "well, that would be nice, but there isn't enough scriptural evidence."

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216123#Comment_1216123

Most good exegetes will say, from my observation, "the scripture doesn't address it." I could be wrong. Rushdoony (i don't remember which book. I saw this in the general search function of Logos) said Calvin thought animals would be resurrected but I haven't been able to find where Calvin actually said this. Looking at Calvin's commentary on Romans 8, Calvin seems to thinkits possible but he refrains from 'speculation' as he calls it.

There are no doubt, many bad exegetes, pretending to be Christians, who probably agree with me but for the wrong reasons. I can't go around citing progressives who reject the dominion mandate and dehumanize humanity.

Okay, at > 400 posts you should know theology and judgmentalness don't belong in the forums. I should be able to go for years without knowing who you think is wrong.

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https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216128#Comment_1216128

Hi MJ Smith,

I hope you're well. It seems you're making a judgement, that judgementalness doesn't belong on this forum. Just hope you're aware.

Christianity doesn't exist without making judgements, and without discriminating between truth and falsehood.

I shouldn't have to go to a Christian forum and walk on eggshells because I say Christian things and express Christian views.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216137#Comment_1216137

I shouldn't have to go to a Christian forum and walk on eggshells because I say Christian things and express Christian views.

You should respect the wishes of the sponsors of the forums. No one is asking you to walk on eggshells. You are asked to stay off the eggshells in respect for the very broad range of Christians utilizing Logos/Verbum.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216140#Comment_1216140

I shouldn't have to go to a Christian forum and walk on eggshells because I say Christian things and express Christian views.

You should respect the wishes of the sponsors of the forums. No one is asking you to walk on eggshells. You are asked to stay off the eggshells in respect for the very broad range of Christians utilizing Logos/Verbum.

1. I apologize for breaking forum guidelines.

2. I have no further interest in arguing with you. I just want book recommendations.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216149#Comment_1216149

... I just want book recommendations.

I recommend the Summa Theologiae. Specifically, I suggest reading through question 91 in the Supplement.

Rosie Perera

I searched for "resurrection of animals" in my library and found a couple of resources that have some helpful stuff on that topic:

Perspective Digest, Volume 22 - a 5-page article titled "The Salvation of Animals?"

The Theocratic Kingdom - a 15-page section under the heading "Prop. 146. This Kingdom is associated with the deliverance of creation." Especially the subsection "Obs. 3. This leads us to consider whether Paul’s declaration and the Millennium prophecies, etc., include the deliverance of the animal kingdom."

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216151#Comment_1216151

Specifically, I suggest reading through question 91 in the Supplement.

Some Spanish Medieval theologians discussed the issue ... unfortunately I don't recall who or in what

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216159#Comment_1216159

I am extremely grateful to Sine, DAL, David, Rosie, and MJ Smith.
MJ, if you come across those theologians. Please let me know. It would mean a lot.

I am copying down all of the sources listed so far. Thank you.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216301#Comment_1216301

@Rosie Perera

Thank you SO MUCH! the article "salvation of animals" is one of the most helpful citations I have ever seen on the topic. I am going to get, when i am able, Rachel Shafer's thesis. This has been extraordinarily helpful!

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216301#Comment_1216301

I also recommend the discussion here: https://ref.ly/logosres/dyingvirtues?ref=Page.p+158&off=193 as a follow-up (or otherwise in conjunction with) the portion of Aquinas referred to earlier.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216159#Comment_1216159

Specifically, I suggest reading through question 91 in the Supplement.

Some Spanish Medieval theologians discussed the issue ... unfortunately I don't recall who or in what

I don't know who... and I don't seem to have their works in Verbum. Alas.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216159#Comment_1216159

Do Animals Go to Heaven? Medieval Philosophers Contemplate Heavenly Human Exceptionalism - Medievalists.net is an overview with links to other articles to track down the theologians I'm trying to recall.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216508#Comment_1216508

Thanks MJ!
addendum:
Thank you VERY much the pdf you linked is EXTRAORDINARILY HELPFUL.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216522#Comment_1216522

https://www.logos.com/product/213273/gods-future-for-animals-from-creation-to-new-creation

God loves animals and gives them a special place in creation. So, do animals also have a place in God's work of redemption? Will there be animals on the new Earth? Will we see our beloved pets in the afterlife? This book takes up the challenge to think in a responsible way through these questions. The author focuses in particular on the physical restoration, the prophetic proclamation of the coming animal peace, the attitude of God and humanity towards animals, and the question of the relationship between biblical life, the future of animals, and vegetarianism. What can the Bible and Christian doctrine reveal to us about God's way with animals?

Has anyone read this? it appears to be the One Monograph to Rule them ALL. I just happened upon it now.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1217003#Comment_1217003

No, have not read it but will buy it 👌

Rosie Perera

I just saw this posted on Facebook and remembered your thread. Thought you'd appreciate this story if you haven't heard it before:

A man and his dog were walking along a road. The man was enjoying the scenery, when it suddenly occurred to him that he was dead.

He remembered dying, and that the dog walking beside him had been dead for years. He wondered where the road was leading them.

After a while, they came to a high, white stone wall along one side of the road. It looked like fine marble. At the top of a long hill, it was broken by a tall arch that glowed in the sunlight.

When he was standing before it he saw a magnificent gate in the arch that looked like mother-of-pearl, and the street that led to the gate looked like pure gold. He and the dog walked toward the gate, and as he got closer, he saw a man at a desk to one side.

When he was close enough, he called out, 'Excuse me, where are we?'

'This is Heaven, sir,' the man answered.

Would you happen to have some water?' the man asked.

Of course, sir. Come right in, and I'll have some ice water brought right up'.

The man gestured, and the gate began to open.

'Can my friend,' gesturing toward his dog, 'come in, too?' the traveler asked.

'I'm sorry, sir, but we don't accept pets.'

The man thought a moment and then turned back toward the road and continued the way he had been going with his dog.

After another long walk, and at the top of another long hill, he came to a dirt road leading through a farm gate that looked as if it had never been closed. There was no fence. As he approached the gate, he saw a man inside, leaning against a tree and reading a book.

'Excuse me!' he called to the man. 'Do you have any water?'

'Yeah, sure, there's a pump over there, come on in..'

'How about my friend here?' the traveler gestured to the dog.

There should be a bowl by the pump.'

They went through the gate, and sure enough, there was an old-fashioned hand pump with a bowl beside it.The traveler filled the water bowl and took a long drink himself, then he gave some to the dog. When they were full, he and the dog walked back toward the man who was standing by the tree.

'What do you call this place?' the traveler asked.

This is Heaven,' he answered.

'Well, that's confusing,' the traveler said. 'The man down the road said that was Heaven, too.'

'Oh, you mean the place with the gold street and pearly gates? Nope. That's hell.'

'Doesn't it make you mad for them to use your name like that?'

'No, we're just happy that they screen out the folks who would leave their best friends behind.'

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1217041#Comment_1217041

Here’s another book on the subject: https://www.logos.com/product/53046/a-new-heaven-and-a-new-earth-reclaiming-biblical-eschatology

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1222218#Comment_1222218

Well, I’ll be researching the topic myself. In the final analysis we don’t know everything because God has only revealed the essentials.

My 17 year old chihuahua just passed away this morning and it really sucks not having her around anymore 😞

DAL

Sam Shelton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1307429#Comment_1307429

DAL

I have no writing to share with you on the matter, but I have made past studies for my own benefit, and I am firmly convinced that we will see those special companions that God has blessed us with again. I understand the pain and my prayers are with you.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1307440#Comment_1307440

Please look at irenanus' fifth book of heresies. He quotes papias who was a student of John the apostle. He says that the apostle John taught that animals would rise from the dead in the last day. Reductive interpretation of scripture is damaging. The contents of scripture themselves are sufficient to logically conclude that animals will be risen from the dead. There are many hints towards it. I have written an article on the topic, although I don't know if I want to share it here. I'm sorry. I would like to maintain separation on this website to elsewhere. I hope you're able to find it. Maybe if I can privately message you I can share it.

The fifth book of heresy is references this. Likewise, it mentions the aforementioned animals in the book of Isaiah. But to be clear, this cannot refer to only animals in Isaiah. Nor can it refer to animals only in the Bible. The Bible is a book that is highly symbolic, containing deep meaning. Reductive interpretation is bad. I am 100% certain that you will see your Chihuahua again. Literally, zero doubt. There are many more Christians who believe this, John Wesley, August Toplady, And many others across all eras. As well as large numbers of the masses for unreflective reasons. It's kind of the default actually. It's typically academics who want to go against it. And I've made the academic case for it. If you can find a way to open up communication, I will share it with you.

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1216016#Comment_1216016

If that were true, then I hope I get to keep my Chihuahua. She just turned 15 and is still active, but I know sooner or later she will depart from this world. Anyway, I don’t have any resources to recommend.

DAL

How about in resurrection, your memory of your dog is wiped clean so you will never your miss your dog in Heaven?

The reason I bring up this possibility (of course, this is a guess) is because my grandma prayed like crazy for her 2 sons to become believers. Don't know what happened to my 2 uncles. Let's say they didn't become believers. Then when my grandma went to Heaven and realized her sons were not in Heaven, she would have been devasted, which God won't allow, I feel, in Heaven.

I am not trying to argue theologically. Just to give you some comfort that, no matter what, in resurrection we don't have to worry about all these. It is always going to be better than we dreamed off.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1307476#Comment_1307476

It is 100% true. There's no reason to jump to the conclusion that your memory will be erased. That's a very hollow comfort. If the whole creation will be restored and glorified then there's no reason why your pets will not. But it will not be only your pets, but everything ever created. There is no reason to assume otherwise. No, the Bible does not say so in explicit terms. But it functionally says so. Romans 8 does not make sense if animal Resurrection is not true. John 3:17 makes less sense. Read Colossians 1 and Ephesians 1. All things are being reconciled to Christ. Created. All things. In heaven, on Earth, and under the Earth. An article by a Seventh-Day Adventist. I'm not SDA. It's not my article, which has more force, more evidence, and a more consistent argument.

https://www.perspectivedigest.org/archive/22-2/the-salvation-of-animals

None of you need to fret about your pets. There's no reason to. We have spilled countless time fretting over things that are already resolved. A lack of belief in animal Resurrection by pastors is A problem of small-mindedness. They do not have any special wisdom on this matter. If they deny it, you should not listen to them. You should listen to them and other things. There's reasons why people do not believe in animal resurrection and they're very bad. They're related to the importation of Greek concepts of the soul, attaching them to the Christian concept of the soul, and then also to the image of God. The idea is that your soul must be rational, whatever that even means, to be immortal. It's nonsense and has nothing to do with what the Bible is saying. I love Augustine. My favorite church father. On this. He erred. Just as Aquinas did. That doesn't take away from anything else that they've done. They were just wrong. The problem is people tend to follow this line of thinking. Not even knowing why. And convincing them can be difficult at times because they're being cautious. Even though what they're being cautious to protect is actually garbage philosophy imported into Christianity. That is not to say that all philosophy is bad.

The original book I referenced in the post I made does actually touch on this topic. But he's not the only one. I independently discovered this the primary sources.

I am not trying to argue as well. I'm just trying to be helpful. This is a serious matter that has got ignored for too long And those who argue against it are harming, unintentionally, the body of Christ. No, you don't need to believe in animal resurrection to be saved. By no means! But you ought to because it is justifiable from systematic theology, biblical theology, and it's fitting. It makes perfect sense.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1307478#Comment_1307478

An alternative to the edited memory theory:

Bishop Flores and the Theology of Pets| National Catholic Register (ncregister.com)">
Classical Thomism indicates that because pets lack a rational soul, they will not participate in the Beatific Vision, which is what heaven consists of. But Bishop Flores thinks that limited presentations of this view fail to “properly amplify” St. Thomas’ full teaching. Thomas, for instance, says that it is more perfect to see something in God than to see God in something. So although material things like a pet or an oak tree won’t “go to heaven,” it can be appropriate to speak of their presence in the mind of God.

“When you look at God, which is what the Beatific Vision will be, you see all that he thought and all the goodness and love that he made in every particular thing he created.”

Bishop Flores recalls an old professor of his who would say that you will see Fido in the divine essence, and you will see him much more clearly and beautifully than if you had him in front of you.

“You will actually take great delight in seeing everything made in God, should we, by his grace, get to the Beatific Vision. It’s not like he files that away somewhere. God is eternally instant. Yes, the dog had a life and the life ended, but God did not forget. God does not forget anything he has made. To the extent that we see God in the face, we shall see all that he has made in its pristine glory, as he intended it.”

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1307429#Comment_1307429

My 17 year old chihuahua just passed away this morning and it really sucks not having her around anymore 😞

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss. Losing my 17-year-old Black Lab in 2008 was the hardest loss I've ever been through, even harder than losing each of my parents. My deepest condolences, and I pray and believe that you will indeed see her again one day.

💔