Bug: serial resource association (Word commentary) not working
I have the Word Biblical Commentary open to 1 John, and type 'Psa 105' in the locator panel. Nothing happens. (I do have the requisite Psalms volume). Other multi-volume sets I have with psalms work properly.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
Comments
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you can expand Library to show details and then right click on a column header to select "Series".
You can check what volumes have a Series (Serial association) name!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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That is nice. However the Word series is a serial series and at least the 1,2,3 John volume doesn't know that it is supposed to be hooked up with the Psalms volume. That is a bug unless it can't be reproduced and then I'm not sure what it is. It doesn't work for me.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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There is no system-defined or user-defined serial resource associations at this time. The hope is that the New Tab feature which lists similar resources, including those in a series, would provide that function. What works well with this is that the current location is not lost when you open the resource with the new passage. So, for example, rather than the commentary changing to the Psalms volume, you can open it into a new tab and then even drag the tab to a new panel, to view both side-by-side, if desired. However, there are some limitations with large multi-volume series being completely displayed on the new tab, so I have requested that they look at this again.
Melissa
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Melissa Snyder said:
There is no system-defined or user-defined serial resource associations at this time.
As a matter of fact there do seem to be system defined serial resources in 4.0. Perhaps that's not what you call them, but they function like serial resources did in 3.0, with the exception (at least) of what I am trying to point out.
The issue I'm having seems to be that the volumes of the Word Commentary are serially linked in two sets in 4.0: Old Testament and New Testament. I can move from one book to another in either the OT or the NT by typing into the locator bar. I can't get from the OT to the NT or the NT to the OT by doing this. The ability exists in 3.0 and should be available in 4.0. So maybe this isn't a bug but an oversight. It should work and would be a pain in the neck if it doesn't in 4.0. Just basic function for Bible study software IMO.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Melissa Snyder said:
u can open it into a new tab and then even drag the tab to a new panel, to view both side-by-side, if desired.
Hi,
I commented on this in another thread, but will repeat it here because it is important to me
.This solution is lacking to me because:
- The new resource that opens up is not connected with a link-set even if the the original resource was. If you want the newly opened resource to follow in the same link-set you had on the first resource, you have to manually link it.
- Now that you have opened a second resource, you now have two panels which you have to manage. The next time, you have three, and then four.... The new resource opens as a tab in the same subwindow of the first resource. As you move around the bible, the window at the front of these two resources does not change, you have to manually find which tab has the reference. Alternatively I can manually manage the new tab to have all the reference tabs displayed on a grid, but this is an unnecessary task. I have I found this hard to use with Jon Coursen's 3 volume commentary, I cannot imagine using it with any of the larger commentary sets
- The natural flow that was present in moving around the bible and having a commentary series follow it is disrupted. Repeatedly having to link things, and to choose things that you used to be able to set up once then have them follow automatically seems like a step backwards to me.
The main area that this affects me is on my daily reading plan. It is set up to read an OT, Wisdom, Gospel and NT section each day. So as I go through it I am jumping through the bible. In version 3 it was nice to read through it and when something caught my eye, I could immediatley look to my chosen commentary and it was already open to the verse/section I was at. It is here that my reading/study flow has been interrupted by the tool. The function in V3 made the tool completely disappear letting me focus on the reading/investigation.
Hope this makes sense.
Clinton
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Melissa Snyder said:
There is no system-defined or user-defined serial resource associations at this time. The hope is that the New Tab feature which lists similar resources, including those in a series, would provide that function.
Serial Associations (Series?) as per v3 exist to some extent in v4 i.e. you type a NT ref into an OT resource and it switches to the NT resource, and vice-versa. "The Be Series" and "Wiersbe's Expository Series" as listed in Library's Series column are ones that work. As already stated the New Tab feature is unacceptable - I would have to choose the desired volume** and then type the reference. Further, the disadvantage you mention would affect performance for when a New Tab is desirable.
** the Be Series (and others!) do not conveniently title the resources by their range of bible references!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Mark A. Smith said:
the 1,2,3 John volume doesn't know that it is supposed to be hooked up with the Psalms volume.
I assumed the Series tag implied that serial associations were in place!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I'm gonna have to chime in and agree that the current resource association scheme is "less than acceptable."
V3: Open a bible
Open a commentary.The commentary opens to the proper place. Any commentary in a series could be clicked and the matching one would automatically open up.
When going to an opposite testament passage in the open bible; the commentary would automatically switch to a corresponding commentary in the same series, if the current commentary didn't have a corresponding opposite testament book, (NT commentary switching to OT passage) then your preferred OT commentary would automatically open to the proper place
V4: Open a bible
Open a commentary BUT BEWARE! The commentary chosen MUST be the proper one in a series REQUIRING a whole 'library search" to make sure no mistake happens.
When switching to the opposite testament (from New to OT for example) there is no automatic resource association so I'm forced once again to do a library search to find the EXACT commentary that's going to work.
And to top it off..when cycling through your commentaries, you have to get to the end then REALIZE that you are now at commentaries that you don't like...and mouse click ALL of the way back to the beginning!
I'm not a huge complainer but this really is the pits.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Melissa Snyder said:
There is no system-defined or user-defined serial resource associations at this time. The hope is that the New Tab feature which lists similar resources, including those in a series, would provide that function.
This simply does not work with WBC 1,2,3 John. Here is the New Tab from this resource:
Here is what I get from Psalm 23 in WBC. Note, not one of the many WBCs listed is a New Testament volume:
As already mentioned, serial resources do exist in Logos 4.0. I opened the Interpretation commentary on Exodus, type Mark 7:30 and was immediately taken to the Interpretation commentary on Mark to the section dealing with this verse.
The New Tab feature needs to be reconsidered. While the list on the right makes perfect sense - all parallel resources dealing with the pericope - the left hand side is absurd!
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While the NAC series easily moves between testaments, neither Hermeneia nor ICC functions in this way.
They all seem to have no problem shifting between books in the same testament, xcept where they are not recognised as part of the same series, eg. Mark in Hermeneia or Colossians in Pillar (lamented about elsewhere to no response).
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Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Dave Hooton said:
I assumed the Series tag implied that serial associations were in place!
Silly you and silly me for assuming that! It should, but it apparently doesn't. At least if you want to go from the OT to the NT or visa versa it doesn't.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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+1 for proper user-defined serial resources as per v3 - the current Tab system for doing this falls far short of good workflow as found in V3.
e.g. I want to be able to associate a GNT and a HebOT of my choosing within a single resource tab without having to open new tabs and do whatever else.
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I realize we've got some work to do here.
Among the "easy" fixes: we can standardize the series name across the OT/NT of a particular commentary. (Before 4.0 ships we'll have the ability to update resource metadata centrally and push it down; this will let us correct bad metadata, standardize author name spellings, etc. as problems are identified, without having to ship new versions of the resources.)
I'm not at the office where I can test this with big sets, but I believe that if you add both an NT and OT series of a commentary set to your resource priority list, above other commentary sets, you'll be able to get to the right volume even accross an NT / OT series-name difference.
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Hi Bob,
You guys must be reading 24/7.
For me, if I open a commentary set (Which I have defined in my library prioritize) and a bible and then link-set the two together, I get the following results:
1) Type in references in the commentary set search bar that are in a different volume, the commentary opens to the new one and the bible follows
2) Type in a reference in the bible search bar that is in a different volume for the commentary set, the commentary set stays where it was
It works but to me it is backwards, would like to bible to lead and the commentary sets to follow.
I have tried this with Baker NT commentary set, MacArthur commentary set and the Coursen three volume as a set and get the same behaviour.
Thanks,
Clinton
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm not at the office where I can test this with big sets, but I believe that if you add both an NT and OT series of a commentary set to your resource priority list, above other commentary sets, you'll be able to get to the right volume even accross an NT / OT series-name difference.
That's not my experince.
From WBC Mattew i can jump to some books in NT but no books in OT. If I scroll ESV linked to WBC, WBC will not "follow".
Luke is OK:
1 Corinthians don't work (WBC not recognize passage):
Compare ESV:
Ebbe
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Clinton Thomas said:
This solution is lacking to me because:
- The new resource that opens up is not connected with a link-set even if the the original resource was. If you want the newly opened resource to follow in the same link-set you had on the first resource, you have to manually link it.
- Now that you have opened a second resource, you now have two panels which you have to manage. The next time, you have three, and then four.... The new resource opens as a tab in the same subwindow of the first resource. As you move around the bible, the window at the front of these two resources does not change, you have to manually find which tab has the reference. Alternatively I can manually manage the new tab to have all the reference tabs displayed on a grid, but this is an unnecessary task. I have I found this hard to use with Jon Coursen's 3 volume commentary, I cannot imagine using it with any of the larger commentary sets
- The natural flow that was present in moving around the bible and having a commentary series follow it is disrupted. Repeatedly having to link things, and to choose things that you used to be able to set up once then have them follow automatically seems like a step backwards to me.
I agree! I commented similarly on this earlier today by providing a visual explanation of what I think is the functionality missing from v3.
See: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/1604.aspx
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Bob Pritchett said:
I'm not at the office
Why? [:)]
Bob Pritchett said:Before 4.0 ships we'll have the ability to update resource metadata centrally and push it down; this will let us correct bad metadata, standardize author name spellings, etc. as problems are identified, without having to ship new versions of the resources
Will this overwrite any corrections we make? If I change the abbreviated titles to standardise them, will you overwrite these changes?
In my library, NAC, Interpretation, and ACCS all function as a series across OT and NT books even when they are not prioritised
Anchor, Cornerstone, and Hermenia do not work in eitehr the OT or NT
WBC works for NT but not OT
NIGTC which is prioritised as a series does not work as a series for the NT, nor does Lenski (which cannot be prioritised as a series)
Pillar, IVP NT, Be series NT, Life Application NT, College Press NIV NT, RNTS, UBS handbooks NT all waork as series across the NT.
Something is strange when there is no consistency in this issue.
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Damian McGrath said:
Something is strange when there is no consistency in this issue.
The "series" relationships that are currently in Logos 4 Beta 2 were taken from a snapshot of the current resources sometime between 12-24 months ago, and have not been updated since. That's why some (old) series work perfectly, some (recent) series are completely missing, some (recent) books don't seem to work, but the rest of the series does.
I understand that this inconsistency makes working with the program a little frustrating; unfortunately, it's hard for us to fix right away without putting in place some prerequisites that will give us the "ability to update resource metadata centrally", as Bob mentioned. We do plan to have it fixed before release, since it can make multi-volume commentary sets pretty unusable.
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Bradley Grainger said:
I understand that this inconsistency makes working with the program a little frustrating;
Thanks Bradley,
the only frustrating this is not knowing why some work and others don't and receiving mixed messages about it. I've raised the issue about a number of volumes and number of times.
All questions are now answered.
I'll be happy if it works in the final release.
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Bradley Grainger said:
the "ability to update resource metadata centrally",
Any answer to my other question about overwriting changes we make?
I didn't do much with Beta 1 because I knew that once the syncing problem for Australians would be fixed, I would lose all that data. I don't want to standardise the names of resources, especially abbreviated titles, if a future "push" system is going to erase any work I do.
BTW. You can have a day off if you'd like
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Bradley Grainger said:
The "series" relationships that are currently in Logos 4 Beta 2 were taken from a snapshot of the current resources sometime between 12-24 months ago, and have not been updated since. That's why some (old) series work perfectly, some (recent) series are completely missing, some (recent) books don't seem to work, but the rest of the series does.
I understand that this inconsistency makes working with the program a little frustrating; unfortunately, it's hard for us to fix right away without putting in place some prerequisites that will give us the "ability to update resource metadata centrally", as Bob mentioned. We do plan to have it fixed before release, since it can make multi-volume commentary sets pretty unusable.
Ahh! Finally the actual explanation and a promise we can live with. Thank you! (This of course, doesn't address the larger issues of some user control over what were called serial and parallel resources. I hope some serious discussion is going on about that. But that's another post.)
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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Damian McGrath said:
Any answer to my other question about overwriting changes we make?
Our changes to titles, abbreviated titles, etc. will never overwrite your changes. In fact, you would never even know we had made changes, because your overrides would hide ours.
(The only exception would be if a bugfix or change during the beta necessitates our removing all the changes you have made (and we hope we wouldn't have to do this), in which case the official titles will appear to overwrite yours, but only because yours have been deleted.)
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Bradley Grainger said:
Our changes to titles, abbreviated titles, etc. will never overwrite your changes. In fact, you would never even know we had made changes, because your overrides would hide ours.
Thanks Bradley. I'll get to work....
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Bradley,
I guess what's hard is that I realize that you guys are working "buggy stuff" but for me, I can't separate "we just want to do it that way" with..."boy! that's a bug!"
All I'm asking for is not the EXACT way things were done in V3...I really don't care HOW this gets accomplished but after it is done, I'd like to:
1.) Open a commentary in a series (even the wrong one in a series) and have it "know" where to go based on the open active bible ref.
2.) Be able to open commentary after commentary in the same window...all going to the correct passage.
3.) be able to go from a New Testament passage to an Old Testament passage and have whatever window holds the active commentary, to switch automatically.
Not much to ask eh? [:P]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
3.) be able to go from a New Testament passage to an Old Testament passage and have whatever window holds the active commentary, to switch automatically.
Bob, 1. 2 & 3 seem to concentrate on commentaries for which default associations may be readily constructed by Logos. So I would add:-
4.) the ability to define our own serial association e.g. NT resources and OT resources
But what do you mean by 3.)?
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave,
when i'm in a bible linked to a commentary; like say Baker NT....and I follow a reference to the Old Test, then I'd expect an Old Test commentary to replace baker while the linked bible is in the old testament..is that the way it worked in V3? I can't remember
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Robert Pavich said:
I guess what's hard is that I realize that you guys are working "buggy stuff" but for me, I can't separate "we just want to do it that way" with..."boy! that's a bug!"
All I'm asking for is not the EXACT way things were done in V3...I really don't care HOW this gets accomplished but after it is done, I'd like to:
1.) Open a commentary in a series (even the wrong one in a series) and have it "know" where to go based on the open active bible ref.
2.) Be able to open commentary after commentary in the same window...all going to the correct passage.
3.) be able to go from a New Testament passage to an Old Testament passage and have whatever window holds the active commentary, to switch automatically.
Robert
You make a very good point here! We should all remember that we're not recreating v3 and sometimes I've had to ask myself. "Am I sure I'm not objecting to a new or different feature "solely" because it wasn't how I did it in v3." And honestly sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. But I try to keep reminding myself.
I too like you, just want to use the software as a tool to allow me to do what I really what to to -- study God's Word, effectively using what resources I have available in the most efficient manner. Some "ways" of doing things I might have to give up. I won't mind that as long as the "capability" of accomplishment isn't lost.
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