Security and Privacy Concern about Logos4 Phonning Home

So if LOGOS has a security hole and a third party gets a hold of your confidential prayer requests or other notes, LOGOS is not responsible.  

Correct. If I am using Logos as a prayer diary, I am not using it properly--in fact I would be using it outside the terms of the EULA. That would not be Logos' fault, it would be mine. Furthermore, knowing that this type of information is of the kind not protected via the EULA, a case could easily be made that I would have a professional responsibility NOT TO use it in this manner because of the EULA. I expect Logos Bible Software to save my searches and give me the ability to make my research easier, not to manage every aspect of my life. And, just as I don't use a spreadsheet program to do my word processing, I don't and shouldn't use a research tool to store prayer requests. That's not its function.

But that does not keep you from being sued by a parishioner or his or her non-believing spouse.  Of course, you have the opportunity to turn off Internet access, work offline, etc., etc.  But then how many of us have really done this?

I'm thinking probably more should.  ;-)

And, just as I don't use a spreadsheet program to do my word processing, I don't and shouldn't use a research tool to store prayer requests. That's not its function.

But the whole reason this has become such an issue with some folks is that is part of its function. Logos has a Prayer List feature, specifically for storing your prayer requests and tracking when they are answered. Why should people be expected not to use that feature, just because of some fine print in the EULA, when it is part of the software?

We're hoping to hire someone just to monitor the forums, but haven't had time to do that yet (let alone train them!). We do it as we can, and to save energy and time I sometimes avoid coming back to an argument we've already had thoroughly. (You'll find many explanations already on the forum for why we don't allow you to choose what to update and what not to update. For example, http://community.logos.com/forums/p/7813/62089.aspx#62089)

The trouble is a situation like this... You have over 1 GB of updates and because you don't have access to high speed internet, this is not a possibility.  Fair enough.  You just run an older version of software.  Until the last few years, software updates were much more infrequent.

HOWEVER, you want to buy a new L4 ebook to use.  Buying this book is not a problem as it is only 1mb or so.  Yet, the website says: "If you're using Logos Bible
Software 4, you must choose the DOWNLOAD option."  This means the only way you can get this new book is to download all the hundreds of megabytes of updates and then you get your new book. If you cannot download the updates, you are stuck.

OK, so we can't for various technical reasons selectively download updates and materials.  Then the issue to address is the way which updates can be obtained. At present, the only way they can be obtained is via high speed internet.  The next logical solution would be DVDs. After all, for years this is the way software developers obtained much of their code for some time. 

There are two problems with this:

1. The DVD Media disk for sale on the Logos site is at 4.0a, so it isn't updated very often. 4.0c is already in beta.

2. From what I understand, the DVD Media disk does not include everything that Logos sells. So if you have invested something like an encyclopedia with pictures and it has been updated, you are sunk if if is not on the DVD media disk and you don't have access to high speed internet.

So, what is needed is a regular set of disks which include all of Logos resources and programme updates which users can purchase.  Until there is something like this, users who are stuck on the other side of the digital divide, cannot keep current, let alone buy new materials.

Find a real reason creating such a feature would cost Logos money, explain it, and given an example.

I think that the real reason that Logos created the feature was to avoid the cost of helping users synchronise their files between two or more systems. This was always a challenge in Logos 3 especially for users who actively use two systems and never knew which if any version of a user file was the master. When we first started looking at the feature in the Beta the discussions centred on the ability to synchronise and not backup files. As I see it the backup capabilities in Logos 4 are a side effect of the synchronise feature rather than a carefully planned backup solution.

Something really bugs me about a bunch of Pastors who document sensitive, potentially devastating data on their computers

I don't store personal information in Logos, but most pastors will "document sensitive, potentially devastating data on their computers", so I'm not at all sure the right attitude is to be 'bugged'. Where else would you store minutes of elders' meetings, pastoral letters to members of the congregation, notes of church discipline issues, etc.?

(In my case, my entire HDD is encrypted; my Windows-logon is secured with a password; and any highly sensitive material would also secured with a document password. Backups are done offsite, doubly encrypted. That makes store data on my computer significantly more secure than storing it in a filing cabinet, or even a safe.)

But what if a court subpoenas your computer?

That's obviously an issue that matters more in the US than it does here in the UK. In Scotland (which actually has a different legal system than that of England), if I am asked to produce documentation for a court proceeding, I can refuse on the grounds of pastoral confidentiality. To have any chance of getting its hands on my material, the prosecution in a criminal case would have to prove in advance that I had something which was material, say to a crime of murder or theft, to the proceedings, before a court would even try to insist. It's a defence that has always been accepted in the past, as with the Roman Catholic confessional. In a civil case it wouldn't even get that far. In Scotland, say in a divorce case, I am free to refuse to testify if I choose. Being a witness in a civil case is entirely voluntary. I have in the past refused to testify and that was that!

What I think this little example points out is just how fraught international business is and how careful Logos has to be in trusting to its EULAs. (Microsoft was fined eye-watering amounts by the EU for infringing EU anti-competition law. And though it fought it to the bitter end, Microsoft lost and had to cough up and comply, or stop selling in the EU.) When Logos used resellers in the UK, first Hodder & Stoughton and then Sunrise Software, the resellers were responsible for ensuring that they operated within EU and UK law. Since Logos now sells directly online into the EU, then they have to take responsibility for that. There are subtle and not-so-subtle differences. The relatively common language and culture that we share disguises important differences under law.

I just wouldn't use Logos 4 to hold that kind of information. I wouldn't put pastoral stuff on it, simply because I respect my people's confidentiality. I don't even write it down. My memory is such that I just lift "Jeannie Smith" and her situation before the Lord and I trust Him to know the details that I know – and much more! What my folks have told me, will die with me!

Find a real reason creating such a feature would cost Logos money, explain it, and given an example.

I think that the real reason that Logos created the feature was to avoid the cost of helping users synchronise their files between two or more systems. This was always a challenge in Logos 3 especially for users who actively use two systems and never knew which if any version of a user file was the master.

I think even more of a support cost for them was the much larger number of users who had only one computer and couldn't figure out the arcane unlock mechanism for buying books that were already on a CD they owned but which they didn't have access to. The move to L4's new system of having purchases all occur over the Internet was designed to simplify things for the users and cut down on support calls

In the context of the original issues that synchronising was designed to address I think that everyone would agree it has simplified the way that we manage Logos and is a general improvement. I think that the issue is that it has also introduced a new type of complexity because the act of storing data to synchronise it has created a 'backup' of our data (as well as our licenses) on a central server. I'm pretty sure that Bob will not want to introduce a mechanism that will allow us to control what files are synchronised on an individual file level as that will not be consistent with the design goal for Logos 4 to reduce configuration options as a way to drive down support calls.

It would be relatively simple to introduce a 'private' tick-box that we could place on individual note fields if Logos wished to do so, or indeed to switch syncing off all together. Again, I have no need for such a feature.

Hi Mark

I agree that it would be easy to program but I'm pretty sure that a mechanism like this will be seen as costly to support because it will generate calls about why certain files are not on my other system, etc. A major principle in the design of Logos 4 is that it is easier to support than Logos 3 a technical reality for the users of this decision is that we inevitably have fewer configuration choices.

P.S. It frightens me that a group of people should be so unaware of the privacy and security implications of their actions, and even actively support losing their privacy

Hi Russ,

It sounds like to me that you have the same privacy concerns that I have.  I recommend that you, if you live in the U.S., contact your senators and/or your congressperson of your privacy concerns (not just with Logos, but with your personal data being stored out in 'cloud' in general).  I also recommend that you also contact privacy activist groups like EPIC (Electronic Privacy Information Center).  We are not going to change the privacy laws in the U.S. if our leaders do not know how we feel about the issue.

The forums are for discussing Logos, I don't think Congress cares about that issue (cloud synching.) Are we going to start posting URLs for our representatives next?

The greatest Constitutional mind of the 20th Century is Robert Bork. He was right to say privacy rights are NOT enumerated in the US Constitution. The US 9th Circuit Court of Appeals agreed when they allowed the FBI to hack a 15 yr old's computer to catch him making bomb threats.

Logos synching with the Cloud is not a new threat to your privacy. Pandora's box was opened years ago. Your private details are all over the web. Ever bought from Am@zon? They use a half-dozen database mirrors located around the world. Mainland China hosts one of their server farms. The US Govt. secured 100,000 blank, reusable, re-assignable, domestic wiretap warrants to fight "terrorism." Are there really 100,000 terrorists out there? Recently millions of credit card numbers were stolen in one breach.  Madison Avenue hs been collecting your purchasing data for decades. Your new cable TV boxes can report back what you watch and what commericials you skip. It's a little late to start worrying, if you haven't already been wary. Logos 4 is the least of your worries.

When Lady Godiva rode the horse through town nude, she gave up her rights to privacy! So did the Emperor when he donned his new clothes.
(If I were the Feds in charge of watching you, I would use the "privacy tick" box (the one you are demanding Logos add) to help find the data I should watch closer.) [:|]

Thank you Bob, for such a reasoned and gracious reply. I'm with you 100%.

This PCI Security Standard is an obligation of large merchants who charge credit cards. (See https://www.pcisecuritystandards.org/) PCI compliance has required us to implement name badges, visitor logs, run background checks on certain employees, implement two-factor authentication for certain systems, and to physically and digitally reconfigure our networks. It took us a year to comply, and we get audited.

Bob I hear you, working in the software business where our end-users run their businesses and take crdit card have also just received our PCI compliancy and are rolling our software to all of these sites. It's taken a tremendous amount of work to get there. Thanks for the information on that point and I am glad not to share my credit card info [:P].

I use my prayer list but I can make it cryptic enough so no one knows who it is that I am referring to, but if it's highly sensitive then I would store it else where. It is not unreasonable to do that. I'd rather Logos focus on their strengths and that is providing a powerhouse of a sermon prep and Bible study tool. That's why I invested with Logos and am a promotor of Logos.

The world is moving to cloud-based web services over installed desktop apps.

I will admit that I was hesitant about the cloud-based app, and I see where it is becoming more and more prominent. I may not be a full proponent of it yet, but my feelings on it are much better than in the beginning. I still like having the off-line capabilities and I don't see that going away anytime soon as there are places that I do not have net services and I use Logos regularly.

Thank you again for your comments on this issue, as usual your Christian response is greatly appreciated.

God Bless.

I feel disapointed in this direction, but for now, will attempt to obtain value from what I have already spent on the resources.

Jim, How about just using Logos for study and getting some more secure small program to keep your sensitive content "for your eyes only?" It would be a shame to shelve the seacrh engine Logos has developed. OneNote can fill the niche.