IMPORTANT - New version numbers for Logos/Verbum software

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237911#Comment_1237911

You think that's going to create less confusion?

The point we want to get to is that people care whether they have Logos 8, or Logos 9, or Logos 10, but no one worries too much about what their software version is because it's just kept up-to-date automatically. (Except in the beta forum, perhaps. Those users do care about their software version - hence this announcement!)

Jan Krohn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237915#Comment_1237915

Excellent move! MS has done the same with MS Office. The software version is always the same, just the "Features" are different (2016, 2019, 2021, 365). People no longer care about their Office software version. It just updates automatically.

People also no longer care about their webbrowser software version. Or does anyone here know which version of Chrome, Safari, Firefox etc. they're on?

It will remove confusion.

Don Awalt

we've used the same numbering system for both our feature sets and our software

So I guess I have some questions:

1) The next version is 23 - so no more version 10?

2) You mentioned feature sets, but didn't say how they will be numbered or versioned. I think there are 4 feature sets now, Starter, Bronze, Silver, Full. How will that be handled version-naming/numbering wise? And if there is no change, how is saying I have "version 23 and Silver feature set" any better than saying I have "version 10.1 and Silver feature set"?

3) Any impact to denomination packages (Anglican, SDA, etc)?

4) Any impact to Verbum vs. Logos?

Thanks!

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237915#Comment_1237915

You think that's going to create less confusion?

The point we want to get to is that people care whether they have Logos 8, or Logos 9, or Logos 10, but no one worries too much about what their software version is because it's just kept up-to-date automatically. (Except in the beta forum, perhaps. Those users do care about their software version - hence this announcement!)

Good luck!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237952#Comment_1237952

So, from now on, we're going to use independent version numbering for our software updates. Instead of 10.2, the next software update will simply be called version 22.

"22" as in "2022?" Do I anticipate correctly that there will be "dot" releases? The first release in 2023 would be 23.0... the second release 23.1?

Ronald Quick

Wow - this thread is going to be interesting. I think I'll get my popcorn, sit back and enjoy the show. [:D]

Please don't anyone take offense with my comments. I tend to see humor in things where many other people do not.

I really do appreciate Faithlife's efforts to clear up some of the confusion.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237915#Comment_1237915

The point we want to get to is that people care whether they have Logos 8, or Logos 9, or Logos 10, but no one worries too much about what their software version is because it's just kept up-to-date automatically. (Except in the beta forum, perhaps. Those users do care about their software version - hence this announcement!)

This should be clarified. I'm not sure that FL can bring future software updates to "all" Logos users. Did you mean users on compatible OS with any feature sets from Logos 4 upwards? That would make sense as the software "generally" is kept up-to-date automatically after the buy-in period for a new feature version (Logos 10 in this case). So will there be a buy-in period for Logos 11?

Or are you giving hope to users on Windows 7 or MacOS 10.6?

Users often don't know what Feature set they have when features do not work in the software and FL would help here if the About page gave them an accurate summary rather than "Verbum Cloud" or "Logos Cloud" (in my case). Will you continue to show the internal Software build e.g. 10.2.0.0014 as well as Version 22?

Will there be a Release History for versions 1 thru 21, complete with dates and Service Releases?

EDIT: Release History should also show the Logos feature version for which they were designed e.g. v22 for Logos/Verbum 10.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237921#Comment_1237921

2) You mentioned feature sets, but didn't say how they will be numbered or versioned. I think there are 4 feature sets now, Starter, Bronze, Silver, Full. How will that be handled version-naming/numbering wise? And if there is no change, how is saying I have "version 23 and Silver feature set" any better than saying I have "version 10.1 and Silver feature set"?

FL have to maintain the feature numbering and forum users will still have to identify e.g. using v23 with Logos 9 Silver (then responders have to figure that v23 was designed for Logos 10 features).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237917#Comment_1237917

Excellent move! MS has done the same with MS Office. The software version is always the same, just the "Features" are different (2016, 2019, 2021, 365). People no longer care about their Office software version. It just updates automatically.

The product is MS 365 and it is updated automatically (unless Disabled) and I don't care about the version because it doesn't need to do anything different for my purposes. But their Help desk will be interested to know the version being used e.g. 2210 (which does change!) + Build no. + Click-to-run or Store installation! Similarly with browser versions.

Logos users care more about software versions because they want to know where a bug was fixed or a feature introduced, or why a feature does not work properly. And the "automatic" update does not always work.

It will remove confusio

Do you mean the association of the software version with the feature set it supports as per the third party products you quote?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237968#Comment_1237968

As a result of the confusion, some people never updated their software to the latest version because they didn't realize that they had to "purchase" Logos 9 Basic for free to do so. Other users thought they had the latest feature set, but in fact, they only had the most recent software update.

So users will be upgraded automatically (possibly after a buy-in period) so that they will always have the latest version, removing any uncertainty about whether they should/could upgrade?

Don Awalt

FL have to maintain the feature numbering and forum users will still have to identify e.g. using v23 with Logos 9 Silver (then responders have to figure that v23 was designed for Logos 10 features).

Thanks Dave for the reply...but now I am really confused. So how is "Version 22 with Silver feature set" less confusing than "Logos 10.2 with Silver feature set"? Or am I missing something?

Simon’s Brother

I’m in the camp that is totally confused by this change and don’t understand what was broken and needed fixing. I was perfectly comfortable to where I was at with Logos untik I read this post. it’s doesn’t brings me confusion that did not previously exist before. Version 22 of exactly what? and how does that relate to Logos 10,1 and the Full Feature Set and whether one owns or ’rents‘ it or some other level of feature set? Mark you just created a whole new level of confusion with your post unfortunately about what exactly I will have ownership of a licence. Will I no longer have Logos 10 but Logos 23 and we have just skipped 13 versions come January?

David Wanat

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237992#Comment_1237992

I’m also among the confused. I guess I can see it working in the sense that everyone is using the same numbers that you use internally, making it easier for you to reference. I guess we’ll get used to it.

Jan Krohn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237971#Comment_1237971

The product is MS 365 and it is updated automatically (unless Disabled) and I don't care about the version because it doesn't need to do anything different for my purposes.

Products such as Office 2021 do still exist. I have Offie 365, and additionally some components of the 2021 edition that aren't part of my monthly subscription. Both the 365 and 2021 components have the same version (2210) and build number (16.0.something).

Office 365 always receives the newest features, whereas the features for Office 2021 were frozen with whatever was available in 2021 (for 2019 and 2016 respectively).

For example, if I prepare Powerpoints for church with Office 365 at home, I must be careful not to use any of the new features, since the Office installation at church doesn't support them. (I learned that the hard way...) The Office versions and build numbers are irrelevant for that. All I need to know are the products, Office 365 and (I think) Office 2016. Confusion is minimal.

Of course the help desk will also need to know software version and build number, but that information is easy to find if needed.

As I understand it, the new Logos versioning will work similar. The product one owns determines the feature set one has available, and this gets frozen at the time of purchase (Logos 10, 9, 8 etc.) or updated with new features as the become available (connect subscription).

The software, if I understand it right, will be updated automatically for all at the same time, independently of the product they own (version 22, 23 etc.) I assume there's also gonna be a build number that increases with service releases in between version updates.

Logos users care more about software versions because they want to know where a bug was fixed or a feature introduced, or why a feature does not work properly.

Those users who care can look these things up in the release notes. Long term, they will learn to look up the release notes for the software version. The less tech savvy users might currently not know which set of release notes they need to go to (L9 or L10). This is just one example where confusion will be removed.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237995#Comment_1237995

If I understand correctly, Logos consists of books, feature sets (which also include some books) and the software to run the program. The software will no longer be part of update packages sold in the future, but will just continue to update as releases are available. Books and feature sets will continue to be sold as packages at determined times? So the software updates will really not be part of what is sold going forward, but I assume will contain a minimum set of features that may be necessary for the program to operate at a base level?

I get it. Why wait until 2023 to implement the change?

Dave's points are still valid, but I at least think I understand the theory behind this.

Brian Davidson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237996#Comment_1237996

John, this is a helpful explanation. Gratias maximas.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237998#Comment_1237998

If we're talking like the FL mobile, it'll be an improvement, though not one particularly needed. FL likes change..

But with the mobiles, I never did understand having 'Logos 8' or 'Logos 9'. It's just an app from the Apple store (for iOS). So, in that sense, on the desktop, presumably it could be the same ... just software. I wonder, though, about the sales pop, with major intros. Quite a few (me) don't do features anymore, and sales are becoming just more sales.

But. Their business, not mine. I do get excited over a new iOS version ... it's not just 'software'. And it's automatic. But it's fun.

Added:

Really, the question is the 'features'. They're becoming ad nauseam. Can they hold their own? I know many want more tagging, more tagging. But church use seems to be a yawner for FL. I guess the best word might be 'boring' (updates).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237992#Comment_1237992

I’m in the camp that is totally confused by this change and don’t understand what was broken and needed fixing.

I’m also among the confused.

Hopefully I can provide a concise explaination of "the problem."

FL had a nomenclature problem. They have used "Logos 10" (and the previous branding) to refer to both the software engine AND the libraries/datasets. It is common to have users on outdated versions of the engine simply because they did not know that they were eligible for free updates. They did not purchase an L9 or L10 library or feature set, so of course (in their mind) they are using an L8 software engine.

This is a step in the right direction to alleviate that problem. I do recognize that it will provide some confusion at first.

Mark has not responded to me yet, but I believe the new nomenclature for the software engine will be based upon the year. The reason for "22" is becasue we are in 2022. The version release numbers will also be helpful to know if a user is out of date. If this system were already in place, it would be easy to know that a user were out of date if he said he was on build 21.3.

EDIT: It has been clarified that this is not the case.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237996#Comment_1237996

Why wait until 2023 to implement the change?

They aren't.

Instead of 10.2, the next software update will simply be called version 22. That will be available in beta tomorrow and should be available publically on 3 January.

Mark: Why wouldn't the next update be 23, since the PUBLIC release will be in 2023? You should skip 22 altogether. This will probably help users as well since they would have to make the change from 10.x to 22 to 23 in short order.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237921#Comment_1237921

1) The next version is 23 - so no more version 10?

2) You mentioned feature sets, but didn't say how they will be numbered or versioned. I think there are 4 feature sets now, Starter, Bronze, Silver, Full.

Version 10 is the main number people will see - but that belongs to the feature set, not the software. So, there's Logos 10 Starter, Logos 10 Bronze, and so on.

If you have the Logos 10 Feature Set, it means you've got some or all of the latest features, such as Auto Translation and Print Library.

If you have the latest version of the software, it means you're benefitting from all our latest bug fixes, compatibility enhancements and minor improvements.

3) Any impact to denomination packages (Anglican, SDA, etc)?

4) Any impact to Verbum vs. Logos?

There is no impact to denomination packages.

The software version numbering changes apply to both Logos and Verbum on both desktop and mobile.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237952#Comment_1237952

"22" as in "2022?" Do I anticipate correctly that there will be "dot" releases? The first release in 2023 would be 23.0... the second release 23.1?

We're not following years. Version 22 is expected to ship in early January. Version 23 is expected to ship in mid-February. Version 24 is expected to ship in late March.

If we need an urgent version between those releases, for example, to fix a severe crash, then that might be called 23.1 and would be the equivalent of 10.3 SR-1.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237957#Comment_1237957

I'm not sure that FL can bring future software updates to "all" Logos users. Did you mean users on compatible OS with any feature sets from Logos 4 upwards?

Our versioning numbers will be consistent across desktop, mobile, and web. In the future, we'll be making the latest software available to all users, although only those with currently supported operating systems will be able to install the update.

Or are you giving hope to users on Windows 7 or MacOS 10.6?

We're not changing our system requirements. Users with outdated operating systems will need to use the web app or an old desktop version.

Users often don't know what Feature set they have when features do not work in the software and FL would help here if the About page gave them an accurate summary rather than "Verbum Cloud" or "Logos Cloud" (in my case). Will you continue to show the internal Software build e.g. 10.2.0.0014 as well as Version 22?

It's difficult doing that, because many users have a combination of different feature sets (e.g. L8 Full Feature Set + L9 Basic Featureset + L10 Starter Feature Set).

We will continue to show a build number.

Will there be a Release History for versions 1 thru 21, complete with dates and Service Releases?

There are no releases 1 thru 21.

Release History should also show the Logos feature version for which they were designed e.g. v22 for Logos/Verbum 10.

All our software updates will are designed to work with any feature sets (though improvements to paid-for-features will only be accessible to people who have paid for that feature, of course). New feature sets (and sometimes new resources) will require the latest version of the software.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1237996#Comment_1237996

If I understand correctly, Logos consists of books, feature sets (which also include some books) and the software to run the program. The software will no longer be part of update packages sold in the future, but will just continue to update as releases are available. Books and feature sets will continue to be sold as packages at determined times? So the software updates will really not be part of what is sold going forward, but I assume will contain a minimum set of features that may be necessary for the program to operate at a base level?

I get it. Why wait until 2023 to implement the change?

Yes, that's a fair summary.

The change is implemented in beta now, but that beta won't be available as a full release until January 2023.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238008#Comment_1238008

Why wait until 2023 to implement the change?

They aren't.

Then they should distribute version 22 to all users. That is my point.

Levi Durfey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238025#Comment_1238025

There are no releases 1 thru 21.

Maybe there should be...that way, those on the Logos 9 software engine (and even earlier) can see where they are at in the new versioning scheme. You did say that the idea is to get users to care about their software version.

Levi Durfey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238023#Comment_1238023

We're not following years. Version 22 is expected to ship in early January. Version 23 is expected to ship in mid-February. Version 24 is expected to ship in late March.

Why start at 22 if it's not the year?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238036#Comment_1238036

Maybe there should be...that way, those on the Logos 9 software engine (and even earlier) can see where they are at in the new versioning scheme. You did say that the idea is to get users to care about their software version.

Actually, Mark said the opposite, which kind of demonstrates the problem of the current versioning being confusing.

The point we want to get to is that people care whether they have Logos 8, or Logos 9, or Logos 10, but no one worries too much about what their software version is because it's just kept up-to-date automatically.

He is saying that people should care about what version of the features and library package they purchased, but not care about the software version.

Why start at 22 if it's not the year?

Because it's easier to mentally translate the equivalent 10.2 into 22 (or 10.3 into 23, etc) during the transition time where everyone inside and outside the company are getting used to the new versioning mechanism.

Versions 1-10 can't be chosen, since those already exist, and the software update mechanism can't allow you to go backward. 11-21 could be chosen, but it was desired to have a more obvious break from the previous versioning system.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238055#Comment_1238055

Because it's easier to mentally translate the equivalent 10.2 into 22 (or 10.3 into 23, etc) during the transition time where everyone inside and outside the company are getting used to the new versioning mechanism.

I guess. Seems the year is a whole lot easier, especially when the computer or system version times out. I'm suspecting this is a staff-thing. Thru the years, the marketing emails were the issue ... and will likely continue to be intensionally confusing. Bet.

Levi Durfey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238055#Comment_1238055

Mark said the opposite

Sorry, I read Mark's post too quickly. But it is true that there are people who stay on an old version because they don't realize that they can "purchase" a free upgrade a few months after a new major release happens...and that was the point I was making.

Because it's easier to mentally translate the equivalent 10.2 into 22 (or 10.3 into 23, etc) during the transition time where everyone inside and outside the company are getting used to the new versioning mechanism.

That's helpful. I understand now.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238030#Comment_1238030

Then they should distribute version 22 to all users. That is my point.

In the OP, Mark wrote:

We're working hard to bring future software updates, starting from version 23, to all Logos users.

We're not quite ready to distribute v22 to all users, but we're planning to do that with v23. Things are rolling out in stages.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238055#Comment_1238055

Why start at 22 if it's not the year?

OK, but my year idea is better and more useful. [:P]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238064#Comment_1238064

We're not quite ready to distribute v22 to all users, but we're planning to do that with v23. Things are rolling out in stages.

Do you anticipate stopping the behavior of not allowing users to update during the next cycle? Or will users have to go from (for the sake of the argument) from v. 35 to v. 38?

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238066#Comment_1238066

The intention here is good, but I don't believe it's going to have the desired effect. Version 10.xx is not that hard to understand. If I'm understanding this correctly, at some point about two years from now we're going to have Logos Version 11 paired with something like version 37 of the software. It seems to me that's going to be neither intuitively obvious nor easy to explain.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238069#Comment_1238069

we're going to have Logos Version 11 paired with something like version 37 of the software

The intent is to eliminate the idea of "pairing". Everyone with a supported version of the software will just have "the latest version of the software". Then when we talk about 11, it's obvious that we're talking about the product. There won't be any need to associate Logos 11 with a particular version of the software.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238065#Comment_1238065

OK, but my year idea is better and more useful.

But it limits it to one release per year rather than every 6 weeks or it requires sub-versions which they are trying to avoid except for emergency releases.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238071#Comment_1238071

OK, but my year idea is better and more useful.

But it limits it to one release per year rather than every 6 weeks or it requires sub-versions which they are trying to avoid except for emergency releases.

It also feels a little strange when you release an SR to a 2022 version in the year 2023. We started with using the year, and ended up discarding it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238070#Comment_1238070

From my perspective, it makes no difference to me how FL names the software version; moving to a naming convention that makes it clear it makes no difference makes sense. However, I would like to see them address clarifying what features are owned as features are at the crossroads of resources and software. I'd lean towards having a feature to list what features are owned in the "about" section so that time isn't wasted before figuring out that the feature is not owned - one place to go and verify.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238070#Comment_1238070

The intent is to eliminate the idea of "pairing". Everyone with a supported version of the software will just have "the latest version of the software". Then when we talk about 11, it's obvious that we're talking about the product. There won't be any need to associate Logos 11 with a particular version of the software.

I get that, but I don't think the result is going to be as clear as you seem to be anticipating. Like it or not, the "product" is a combination of resources and supporting software. Unlike an epub or pdf, Logos resources are unusable without Logos software. I think this is particularly clear in the case of features. I can buy a Logos format book right now and use it on either the old Logos 9 platform or the new Logos 10 platform. But I can't buy the new Logos 10 feature set and use it on the old Logos 9 platform - the two are (unless I'm greatly mistaken) "paired" in the sense that I must have the new software to use the new features. That's not bad - but if you hide that connection, I think it will inevitably cause confusion the next time there's a major version change.

Of course, that's just my perspective as a user, and it's your business decision. Others may see it very differently.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238071#Comment_1238071

or it requires sub-versions which they are trying to avoid except for emergency releases.

Requires sub-versions: Yes. Good reason to avoid? No.

It will be worse once we get to version 100, 101, etc.

THe year scheme makes it much easer to remember what the "current" version is. I will never remember v. 38 out of some other context. It would be much easier for me to remember 23.4 in when we are on the fourth release in June of 2023 (or whenever).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238076#Comment_1238076

THe year scheme makes it much easer to remember what the "current" version is.

Isn't the point that we don't need to remember what the current version is? We'll only care when deep in the doo-doo of documenting bugs.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238077#Comment_1238077

Mark - when will the forums be converted to "ancient history" and "desktop", "web", "mobile" without version designators?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238074#Comment_1238074

But I can't buy the new Logos 10 feature set and use it on the old Logos 9 platform - the two are (unless I'm greatly mistake) "paired" in the sense that I must have the new software to use the new features. That's not bad - but if you hide that connection, I think it will inevitably cause confusion the next time there's a major version change.

The intent is not to hide the connection. The intent is to eliminate the connection. We don't want some users to be on version 9 and some to be on version 10. We want all users to be on the same version regardless of what they have purchased.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238064#Comment_1238064

We're not quite ready to distribute v22 to all users, but we're planning to do that with v23. Things are rolling out in stages.

To clarify Bradley's point about rolling out in stages:

Stage 1: Version 22 as an automatic update to those running 10.x.
Stage 2: Version 23 as

an automatic update to those running 9.x, 10.x, or 22
an optional update to those running 8.x or earlier

There's a possible stage 3 where we roll out future versions as automatic updates to those currently running earlier versions of the software, but that is far from decided yet. We'll see how users respond to the first two stages before deciding that.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238066#Comment_1238066

Do you anticipate stopping the behavior of not allowing users to update during the next cycle? Or will users have to go from (for the sake of the argument) from v. 35 to v. 38?

Ideally, we like to make future software updates available to everyone straight away. But given all the additional work required around the time of a major launch, I don't know whether that's practical.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238081#Comment_1238081

The intent is not to hide the connection. The intent is to eliminate the connection. We don't want some users to be on version 9 and some to be on version 10. We want all users to be on the same version regardless of what they have purchased.

I think that works if going forward the current version is always free (which is something I support). But if there's a lockout period with the next major product upgrade (as in the past) where the new version is only available to folks who pay for an upgrade, then the linkage will reappear.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1238077#Comment_1238077

THe year scheme makes it much easer to remember what the "current" version is.

Isn't the point that we don't need to remember what the current version is? We'll only care when deep in the doo-doo of documenting bugs.

This is correct.

I'm running ... *checks About* ... Chrome 107 right now, and it "doesn't matter". The only time I'd need to know is if there's some major bug that's fixed in Chrome 108 and updating the software would fix it for me.

We want the same to be true of the Logos desktop software: automatic updates will bring the latest engine to all customers (see Mark's comments earlier for the definition of "all") and the exact version won't really matter unless you're contacting Tech Support about a bug. (And obviously beta testers who care about the "new and shiny" will want to know specifically what version they're running.)