WOC search discrepancies

When I run a Bible search in NASB95 for the word Peter, I get hits in 154 verses.

When I run a search for the word Peter, but limit to Words of Christ (by clicking All Bible Text and selecting), I get hits on two verses. Well and good.

I can also run a search with no limitations of-- Peter IN speaker:Jesus --I also get hits on two verses, which is what I would expect.

But I want to see everywhere Jesus spoke to or about Peter, so I run this search-- person:Peter IN speaker:Jesus --and I receive 183 results in 69 verses.

This looks like it is only giving me references to Peter in the words of Jesus. In Matthew 7:17 [And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” NASB95], the second "them" is tagged as referring to Peter, but it is not a result because it is not in the words of Jesus. The two verbs are also tagged with "Peter" and are in words of Jesus, so they register as hits. Good. That is what I expected.

NOW, here's the thing I'd like help with:

When I run a search in NASB95 for person:Peter and limit search to Words of Christ, I get 972 results in 369 verses.

I run a search for person:Peter with no limitations, and I get 972 results in 369 verses.

It looks like I am getting every tag for the person Peter without any consideration of the search field Words of Christ, including everything in Acts, 1Cor, Gal, 1&2 Peter.

I've tried this with other tags/labels and get similar results. If I search for anything other than plain text (place:Jerusalem, intertext:relationship:Quotation, etc) limited to Words of Christ then Logos returns a search that is exactly the same as All Bible Text.

However, the same searches IN speaker:Jesus return expected results.

Is this a bug, or a limitation of the search fields dropdown menu?

Is there a general rule as to when Words of Christ and IN speaker:Jesus will not agree?

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Comments

MJ. Smith

It appears to be a bug - I'll give Dave a chance to report it but the results are simply wrong.

Dave Hooton

Is there a general rule as to when Words of Christ and IN speaker:Jesus will not agree?

The tagging for WOC tends can be speculative as can the (separate) tagging for words that Jesus spoke, but they appear to have the same scope:

Peter IN speaker:Jesus = Peter in WOC and John IN speaker:Jesus = John in WOC; but
person:Peter will ignore Field settings and Match settings for Case and Forms because datatype searches get their results from a dataset.

But I want to see everywhere Jesus spoke to or about Peter, so I run this search-- person:Peter IN speaker:Jesus --and I receive 183 results in 69 verses.

This looks like it is only giving me references to Peter in the words of Jesus. In Matthew 7:17 [And Jesus came to them and touched them and said, “Get up, and do not be afraid.” NASB95], the second "them" is tagged as referring to Peter, but it is not a result because it is not in the words of Jesus. The two verbs are also tagged with "Peter" and are in words of Jesus, so they register as hits. Good. That is what I expected.

You meant Mt 17.7, which you agree is included in the your search for the reasons given i.e. it is only giving me references to Peter in the words of Jesus.

If you want to see where Jesus spoke to Peter, you need the addressee datatype i.e.

addressee:person:Peter INTERSECTS speaker:Jesus.

You get extra results because Peter is not referenced in all Jesus' words e.g. Mt 10.5-10.

It is safer to use INTERSECTS as IN means wholly within.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1245937#Comment_1245937

Dave, is it accurate to say that the Match case and Match all forms options apply only to text argument term and that the reference matching option applies only to topics, cultural concepts, preaching themes, counseling themes argument terms? If it is so, why aren't they greyed out until a search term is entered that activates them? And why not have a warning that the field filter will be ignored?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1245940#Comment_1245940

is it accurate to say that the Match case and Match all forms options apply only to text argument term

Yes

and that the reference matching option applies only to topics, cultural concepts, preaching themes, counseling themes argument terms

Reference matching applies only to datatype/keyword terms (except labels) where there exists an equivalent/similar reference value.

why aren't they greyed out until a search term is entered that activates them? And why not have a warning that the field filter will be ignored?

Perhaps they should be greyed out when not applicable to the query. They can still affect text terms, though.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1245945#Comment_1245945

and that the reference matching option applies only to topics, cultural concepts, preaching themes, counseling themes argument terms

Reference matching applies only to datatype/keyword terms (except labels) where there exists an equivalent/similar reference value.

Can you give me an example of datatypes that are similar references that are not topics, cultural concepts, preaching themes, counseling themes, theological topics . . . I suspect I am still missing something.

See: Simple simplification of the search | Faithlife

Brian LeStourgeon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1245937#Comment_1245937

Thank you, Dave for the general rule. "Datatype searches ignore field settings." And yes, I transposed the Matthew reference. Thanks for catching that.

Thanks, MJ for weighing in with good follow up questions. I've learned a lot in this thread.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1245949#Comment_1245949

Can you give me an example of datatypes that are similar references that are not topics, cultural concepts, preaching themes, counseling themes, theological topics .

I can't find any examples for CT:Marriage (Counseling Theme) e.g. it is not included with topic:Marriage

What datatype is "theological topics"? If LSTO, then it is not subject to reference matching.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246009#Comment_1246009

I can't find any examples for CT:Marriage (Counseling Theme) e.g. it is not included with topic:Marriage

What datatype is "theological topics"? If LSTO, then it is not subject to reference matching.

Other datatypes that could be subject to reference matching:

figurativeLanguageTerm:Light has additional results to both topic:Light and culture:Light

Then we have topics that do not integrate for reference matching when there is significant overlap:

topic:Dark is not enhanced for Default matching whilst topic:Darkness is significantly enhanced

both provide a similar number of results for Broad matching because suddenly there is an overlapping of terms e.g. both include results for headword:Dark OR headword:Darkness OR Dark OR Darkness

Note that topic:Marriage involves topic:"Marriage customs" and preachingTheme:"Courtship, Dating and Romantic Relationships” at the Default level when I would expect that at Broad level.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1246027#Comment_1246027

Thank you Dave for taking the time to research this. It really helps me understand what happens in a search.