searching for presence/absence of "movable nu" in Greek NT
Chanced upon a brief article mentioning a scholar who used his own coding searches, perhaps with different software, to discover use/lack of "movable nu" and environments of adjacent vowel or breathing mark or consonant in Greek NT: https://thepatrologist.com/2020/01/08/how-movable-is-movable-nu/
Can anyone suggest search strings for logos to produce such occurrences of "movable nu" (or even lack of such where it might have been expected)?
[Although I have a personal reason for this inquiry, perhaps adaptions of such search strings might also open up other interesting explorations and greater precision for learning or teaching NT Greek grammar. And this would be another testament to the power of logos for searching.]
TY in advance for any suggestions.
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bumping in hopes of getting an appropriate response
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Can anyone suggest search strings for logos to produce such occurrences of "movable nu" (or even lack of such where it might have been expected)?
Logos Search syntax is not designed for this e.g. *ν will find words ending in ν but I doubt that all would be "moveable". Are definite articles excluded?
*ν BEFORE 1 WORDS Term:(α* OR ε* OR ι* OR ο* OR υ*) --> will find nu before words starting with a vowel (assuming those are the Greek vowels!). = 28,132 in SBLGNT.
Term:(*α OR *ε OR *ι OR *ο OR *υ) BEFORE 1 WORDS Term:(α* OR ε* OR ι* OR ο* OR υ*) --> will find words ending with a vowel before words that start with one. = 43,116 in SBLGNT. Again, I would imagine there are exclusions.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Definitely suggestive! TY.
I'd like to explore this some more. Can you help further - since I have next to zero searching skills using logos?
So when I tried a Bible search with SBLGNT text as corpus, all bible text, verse, all passages and your first suggested string, yielded no results. What are the fields/parameters I need to get your results?
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Chanced upon a brief article mentioning a scholar who used his own coding searches, perhaps with different software, to discover use/lack of "movable nu" and environments of adjacent vowel or breathing mark or consonant in Greek NT: https://thepatrologist.com/2020/01/08/how-movable-is-movable-nu/
Can anyone suggest search strings for logos to produce such occurrences of "movable nu" (or even lack of such where it might have been expected)?
Books Search idea is: movable NEAR (nu OR sigma)
Searching footnote text in Center for New Testament Textual Studies’ New Testament Critical Apparatus finds 7,370 results
CNTTS lemma can be searched in SBLGNT with analysis to see about conjugation or declension spelling variations
lemma.g:εἰμί@V???3 (mentioned in brief article, Basics of Biblical Greek, & CNTTS footnote, which has spelling variation in Present, Active, Indicative, 3rd Person, Singular & Plural)
lemma.g:παραλαμβάνω@V???3 (CNTTS Matthew 1:24 has spelling variation in Aorist, Active, Indicative, 3rd Person, Singular)
lemma.g:εἶπον@V???3 (CNTTS Matthew 2:8 has spelling variation in Aorist, Active, Indicative, 3rd Person, Singular)
lemma.g:πᾶς (CNTTS Matthew 2:16 has spelling variation in Adjective, Dative, Plural, Masculine & Neuter)
FWIW: after finding four spelling variations (CNTTS lemma searches up to Matthew 2:16), composed forum reply.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Stimulating and productive suggestions! TY.
Silly me, wouldn't have thought to search using names of the Greek letters rather than the letters themselves, but that yielded some good info even in my limited logos library:
The single most common textual variant involves what is known as a movable “nu.”
Wendland, Ernst R. How We God the Bible. Lusaka Lutheran Seminary, 2020, 444.
[Perhaps should have included citation as identical wording occurs in 2008 ESVSB, 2588? And perhaps even elsewhere as original source?}
More cautiously: One of the most common textual variants involves what is called a movable nu.
Komoszewski, J. Ed, M. James Sawyer, and Daniel B. Wallace. Reinventing Jesus: How Contemporary Skeptics Miss the Real Jesus and Mislead Popular Culture. Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 2006, 56.
And results, as one would expect, vary based on critical text. Nice to learn from your post that the CNTTS is available in logos (now on a wish list- for when I hit the lottery).
And the R&P ed. of the Byzantine text, xx, seems to simply “homogenize” these variants within that textual stream: “The orthography has been standardized throughout. Manuscript irregularities, inconsistencies, and itacistic peculiarities are not reproduced. Movable Nu (-ν) is always present; movable Sigma (-ς) is retained for οὕτως but is omitted from μέχρι and ἄχρι.”
But I was glad to see that more recent introductory grammars provide some more precision than I recall from my Dark Ages with Machen. (Although that might be more attributable to my fading memory than that grammar.)Mounce BBGG 8.13 mentions: “The nu in the third singular estin is a movable nu, but esti occurs only once in the New Testament (Acts 18:10). The nu in the third plural eisin is also a movable nu, but eisi never occurs.
Often in Koine Greek the movable nu is used even when the following word begins with a consonant, especially in the dative plural; it also occurs when it is the last word in a clause.
And, p. 80: The dative plural case ending for a third declension noun is the exact opposite of the first and second declension (ις) and sometimes includes the movable nu: σι(ν).”
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I'd like to explore this some more. Can you help further - since I have next to zero searching skills using logos?
And I have little skill in Greek grammar! You should pursue this with users like KS4J.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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And I have little skill in Greek grammar!
Original language forum discussions have helped me learn and improve my grammatical knowledge: e.g. movable nu
*ν BEFORE 1 WORDS Term:(α* OR ε* OR ι* OR ο* OR υ*) --> will find nu before words starting with a vowel (assuming those are the Greek vowels!). = 28,132 in SBLGNT.
Koine Greek has seven vowels (with smooth OR rough breathing plus some dip-thongs of two vowels having one sound & shorter words can be accented in the first syllable). Search idea for movable nu (dative adjective/noun OR 3rd person verb) potentially before a vowel is:
(*ν INTERSECTS (morph.g:JD OR morph.g:ND OR morph.g:V???3)) BEFORE 1 WORD match.nomarks:term:(α* OR ε* OR η* OR ι* OR ο* OR υ* OR ω*)
Matthew 2:15 ἦν does not have a moveable nu.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Wow. Killing it! I was able to repro your results.
Shows such searching can absolutely be done in logos. [Although I would want to do a bit of review of my rusty Greek to be sure some additional morph term does not need to be added.]
Two quick follow-up questions about this search syntax? 1) What addition to the search string would you need to exclude specific forms like nv, lemma.g:εἰμί@VIAI3S? Something like: NOT lemma.g:εἰμί@VIAI3S? (Didn't work for me to just append that on the end.)
2) How would you modify for a separate search to display absence of movable nu where it might have been expected? So instead of starting with nu in search string, something like rest of string: (morph.g:JD OR morph.g:ND OR morph.g:V???3)) BEFORE 1 WORD match.nomarks:term:(α* OR ε* OR η* OR ι* OR ο* OR υ* OR ω*), but would then add some kind of exclusionary tag onto end to say in effect something like NOT *ν on first Greek term?
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Related general question...could Text Comparison be used to look for MN?
Since the MN is generally considered a non-meaningful textual variant, it seems like someone with some skills with the TC tool could produce a visual filter showing the differences between texts that have vs don't have the MN in certain places. This (of course) assumes the various ancient text resouces/books can be accessed with the TC tool. If not, there are still several different Gk texts available that should be.
I don't have the skill to do that in Logos, but I know there are many here who do, if it's possible in the first place.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Two quick follow-up questions about this search syntax? 1) What addition to the search string would you need to exclude specific forms like nv, lemma.g:εἰμί@VIAI3S? Something like: NOT lemma.g:εἰμί@VIAI3S? (Didn't work for me to just append that on the end.)
2) How would you modify for a separate search to display absence of movable nu where it might have been expected? So instead of starting with nu in search string, something like rest of string: (morph.g:JD OR morph.g:ND OR morph.g:V???3)) BEFORE 1 WORD match.nomarks:term:(α* OR ε* OR η* OR ι* OR ο* OR υ* OR ω*), but would then add some kind of exclusionary tag onto end to say in effect something like NOT *ν on first Greek term?
Challenging question, especially for lemma's appearing relatively few times.
One idea is lemma searching looking for presence & absence of movable nu:
My learning was lemma.g:εἰμί has movable nu presence & absence in dative participle so modified earlier search to include dative participle:
Keep Smiling [:)]
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2) How would you modify for a separate search to display absence of movable nu where it might have been expected? So instead of starting with nu in search string, something like rest of string: (morph.g:JD OR morph.g:ND OR morph.g:V???3)) BEFORE 1 WORD match.nomarks:term:(α* OR ε* OR η* OR ι* OR ο* OR υ* OR ω*), but would then add some kind of exclusionary tag onto end to say in effect something like NOT *ν on first Greek term?
Challenging question, especially for lemma's appearing relatively few times.
For grins, modified search to look for words ending in a vowel in dative case or 3rd person verb, which is followed by a word starting with a vowel:
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Actually that modified search string yielded the same results and did not exclude instances of nv for me.
How about a more general question re. searching: Any sources you used for mastering logos search syntax, operators/paren, etc., beyond the basic template suggestions or intro training vids or documentation in the program? So my first impulse was to add a NOT...to a search string that yielded acceptable results in order to refine results further and that was not even processed. Your additional string interposed NOT INTERSECTS in the middle of the string and that did not produce the desired results. Recommend any source that simply explains and demonstrates the hierarchy so that I can play with these types of searches on my own?
Once again, TY! Mind-broadening as to logos searching capabilities.
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After a dozen unsuccessful queries for a revised search string at Chat gpt, I looked again, compared what you suggested and re-ran your second search string with success - it indeed eliminated nv results. (I don't know if my first use included a copy and paste error or if I didn't allow enough time for search results. mea culpa)
Well done!
So, sensei, any suggestions to master searching syntax as you seem to have done? You beat Chat gpt.
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any suggestions to master searching syntax as you seem to have done?
Many friendly forum discussions have helped me research, learn, & use searching syntax (with lots of trial & error). Many Thanks to Dave Hooton for creating & updating New Search HELP in the Logos Wiki [:D] Dave & M.J. have a better grasp of search syntax scope: e.g. EQUALS (where my preference is INTERSECTS that works better with Hebrew word formations).
Also Thankful for Logos Training (LT) & Verbum Training (VT) => LT Search + VT Search along with Help documentation.
My personal preference is trying searching syntax (often using Help & Logos Wiki), which includes visual filter highlighting =>
- Examples of visual filters (on my To Do list is updating screen shots soon [:$])
Bible Search (match.nomarks:*ν INTERSECTS (morph.g:JD OR morph.g:ND OR morph.g:V???3 OR morph.g:V?????D) NOT INTERSECTS lemma.g:εἰμί@VIAI3S) BEFORE 1 WORD lemma.g:εἰμί@VIAI3S finds five verses where ἦν is preceded by a word that may have movable nu.
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TY for all your effort and for the helpful info.
God bless.
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