I Must Be Pretty Stupid: Creating My First Note

Don't agree! And no, it's not click-bait.

But seriously. I've used LogosX since late 2009. That'd be about 14 years. And then Libby before that. But I never used the notes feature; I have my notes elsewhere.

So, I decided to try it out. Good heavens (lower-case, mind you). As a 'new user'?

1. Best I can see you end up in the 'Notes tool'. There's no quick popup for text/notebook.

2. The Note Tool opens randomly somewhere in my layout ... and NEVER on the same window that I'm on.

3. No keyboard quickie ... everything else, though (looking in the wiki).

Well, that was great. Guess I'm done. Unless somehow I missed a simple 'make a note'.

I deleted my test note.

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Graham Criddle

Unless somehow I missed a simple 'make a note'.

One of the features of the selection menu - https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360032473711-Selection-Menu - is to easily create a note from selected text.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262851#Comment_1262851

Thank you ...

I tried that early on. First, mine doesn't look like theirs (maybe the Mac). But no matter, if I hit the Create Note, it's off to another window and a massive Notes Tool tab. Then, visually search thru my windows (on the Mac) to get back.

I admit 'I'm new' at it; but even if I was an expert Logos note person, I'd not use it when multiple windows. I guess anyway.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262854#Comment_1262854

it's off to another window and a massive Notes Tool tab.

Since you are such a "new user" and from the "literalist" tradition that is so careful with words, I can't help but wonder if you have gotten confused as to which application is Logos ... although I will admit the screen shot fragment does look rather Logosey. But as a member of the "originalist" tradition with a bit of experience on Logos/Verbum, I will offer a bit of context. Notes are conceived not a quick annotations in the margin but as a workspace for working through your analysis. And, yes, when initially opened it is intrusive and you reaction very understandable. But when you have set your parameters and layout you may have it come up as in the upper left corner in the screen shot below.

In PCnese, I would say it was similar to having a Word Pad open. Unfortunately, the Logos translator tool does not handle PCnese to MACnese so I can put it in your terminology. But as a "new user", please keep returning to the forums with your questions. We're here to help. (click on image ... forum help (me) doesn't know how to set autoplay).

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262856#Comment_1262856

Notes are conceived not a quick annotations in the margin but as a workspace for working through your analysis. And, yes, when initially opened it is intrusive and you reaction very understandable. But when you have set your parameters and layout you may have it come up as in the upper left corner in the screen shot below.

I admit 'conceived' as in another poorly designed design from Faithlife (oops ... I knew there'd be another name, when they did Faithlife). The 'design' might indeed work on a simple one-window (Logos term, also Mac term) layout. But more than one window, Katie bar the door.

I also thought about your other idea, glueing (metaphor) in a notes panel into the layout. But I'd have to glue one in each window ... typically 7 of them (though being reading-addicted, my purchases have resulted in even more).

Limiting my comment to this thread (and no offense to Vik and his new plans). But I can't see major corporate financial gains until they begin not filtering out potential customers with pretty but training-demanding designs.

But thank you for the cute guy!

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262860#Comment_1262860

you can use the same view/size of the notes panel in a floating window. I docked it solely for the ease of taking a screen shot.

Brian Davidson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262860#Comment_1262860

As a long time user user (like yourself) and a new notes user, I want to say that it’s worth the learning curve. The anchors to scripture references and the filtering options are gold. For me the filtering means it is easiest and most efficient to have zero notebooks (or maybe just one to distinguish bible notes from highlights).

Since my return to full time Logos use (leaving behind the other company) notes is one of my very favorite things about the program.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262864#Comment_1262864

you can use the same view/size of the notes panel in a floating window. I docked it solely for the ease of taking a screen shot.

Yes ... that seems like a good workaround. Though a simpler design would have been ... simpler.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262854#Comment_1262854

Thank you ...

I tried that early on. First, mine doesn't look like theirs (maybe the Mac). But no matter, if I hit the Create Note, it's off to another window and a massive Notes Tool tab. Then, visually search thru my windows (on the Mac) to get back.

I admit 'I'm new' at it; but even if I was an expert Logos note person, I'd not use it when multiple windows. I guess anyway.

I'm gonna get in trouble for this... BUT.... I agree with your point that it would be nice if when we created a note, it appeared on the same window we creatd the note in. I have a layout that is divided 6 ways.... and each time I create a note... I have to hunt where it popped up.

Wish they would consider making the new note appear in the same window that we created it from.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262866#Comment_1262866

As a long time user user (like yourself) and a new notes user, I want to say that it’s worth the learning curve.

Thank you. I don't doubt the power (though my own software's notes functionality is even better; false-pride).

And, I would argue Logos is best characterized as carefully under-marketed.

But for a company that had trouble running a church support platform, and next, laying employees off unceremoniously, software 'ease of use' has been a long-term customer-filter for a product that is otherwise quite enticing.

GaoLu

I checked my Stupidometer and you are above average. Or below. Whichever is better.

Anyway, i just set out to disprove you and my trusty 27.0.3 crashed. Twice. When attempting to make a note.

No time to figure out why...I have work to do.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262873#Comment_1262873

Anyway, i just set out to disprove you and my trusty 27.0.3 crashed.

Yes, that is a known problem in the new beta ...

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262868#Comment_1262868

I agree with your point that it would be nice if when we created a note, it appeared on the same window we creatd the note in.

That is the note-in-margin model that I mentioned. When Logos redesigned the notes, the note-in-margin model was originally planned but met with a earthquaking-inducing "No" from the users. There are times and use cases where it would be a useful option -- in addition to not as a replacement for the more research oriented (as opposed to comment oriented) notes.

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262866#Comment_1262866

The anchors to scripture references and the filtering options are gold.

Totally agree. I used to have all my Notes in different Word files. Having gotten a hang of Notes (and Clippings), I've stopped taking notes in Word files. What a relief! Now, as I read the Bible or research a topic, I put down my thoughts in a Note and then go bring the old Notes from my Word file. Can't wait to have all of my Notes in Logos instead of having it scattered around a few Word files.

For me the filtering means it is easiest and most efficient to have zero notebooks

Yes, I have no Notebooks too because every Note is given one or more tags. I can then search using tags to collect all the Notes on a topic or them or Bible verse or whatever.

I have to keep track of my tags in an Excel file, which is a bit of a pain. I do this to ensure that I always use the same tag for a topic/theme. Otherwise, for example, I might use "good works" as a tag one time but "good deeds" as a tag another time.

I also take Notes directly on Logos while attending church or Bible study. Before, I used to take Notes on paper and then transfer, which was a waste of time. Not anymore.

Give Notes a whirl and you won't be disappointed.

Brother Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262860#Comment_1262860

until they begin not filtering out potential customers with pretty but training-demanding designs.

Thanks for the opening, DMB.... I am continually surprised and disappointed by the consistent "training-demanding designs" of Logos. Without question, the most comprehensive and sophisticated Bible software I've ever used (while I have not used every single application, I've swung my Bible bat at a large pinata full of them). Yet, the learning curve is so daunting that only one of the people that I've introduced to Logos continues to use it.... and there is a fairly large pinata full of them too.

"The price of sophistication is complexity" is wrong. In software development teams that develop Expert Systems I can tell you from painful experience that we never had a deliverable that was so complex that it required the equivalent of a Camp Logos "degree" to get all the goodie out of it.

What the masses want is a tool that is approachable because it is intuitive, but still has the "meat" that can be accessed with a little feature mining. Otherwise, Logos the company will (prophet hat is now ON) languish simply because it is too difficult to become conversant in/with it.

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262952#Comment_1262952

until they begin not filtering out potential customers with pretty but training-demanding designs.

Vik on his wassup at FL bit needs to hear you. I appreciate + definitely hear you. {[( xxx )]} is not cool at all.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262952#Comment_1262952

"The price of sophistication is complexity" is wrong. In software development teams that develop Expert Systems I can tell you from painful experience that we never had a deliverable that was so complex that it required the equivalent of a Camp Logos "degree" to get all the goodie out of it.

You may wish to rethink this statement. Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excell, Photoshop ... each of these software packages which are broadly used have technical college for-credit courses in their use. I suspect that the Logos model of their profits coming from the sales of books and features is at odds with marketing primarily for the masses. The measure that we should be using is something more like "is the basic free or <$200 version of Logos/Verbum sufficiently intuitive for the masses?" Word does not try to simplify its macros or multi-part documents to the "masses" level.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262960#Comment_1262960

{[( xxx )]} is not cool at all.

which is why it has been replaced

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262965#Comment_1262965

Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excell, Photoshop ... each of these software packages which are broadly used have technical college for-credit courses in their use.

First, just chatting; not proposing being 'right'. But perspective is important. Mine is relative to spreading the gospel (one of many possible). Absent that, the software is irrelevant. So, if it can't be quickly grasped by pastors, it has a problem. Church class teachers. And so-called 'lay', who are the heart of spreading the message (whichever tradition).

Again, not meant to be some sort of superior, just how I grew up. So, a Word, or any other software isn't remotely in the same ballpark, as this criticality.

Now. Go ahead ... I'm probably seriously mis-implying your point! My apologies.

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262970#Comment_1262970

What will it cost Faithlife to hire someone like Morris Proctor to create videos for how to take advantage of the features? This might be a solution to less-intuitive interface.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262970#Comment_1262970

I'm probably seriously mis-implying your point! My apologies.

Nah, you're simply ignoring the other half of the post ...

The measure that we should be using is something more like "is the basic free or <$200 version of Logos/Verbum sufficiently intuitive for the masses?

This is my response to the assumption that the marketing should be "spreading the message". I don't disagree but suspect that "to create tools to help others spread the message" is closer to what software can be effective at. But then, I am not a fan of the grammatico-historical method outside the academic realm and think the inductive method is severely limiting. I'm more a holistic approach of via pulchritudinis-reception history-worship-spiritual formation type despite my love of logic. [It's great fun finding someplace to use "via pulchritudinis" ... it's a fancy Latin term for the way of beauty as in "beauty, truth, and the good"] Note the methodological bias mentioned is solely for the description of my own position and does not discount the validity of other positions.

I suspect that the Logos model of their profits coming from the sales of books and features is at odds with marketing primarily for the masses.

This is the other half of my response to your assumption that the marketing should be "spreading the message". Fortunately, I am not in marketing as I have little interest in marketing. I simply don't know what markets Logos/Verbum is trying to reach at what saturation levels. But I suspect neither you nor most of Logos staff would think first of taking their atheist friend to a performance of Mozart's Requiem or a speech by Daniel Berrigan as the first step in evangelization.

What I do think is critical for all users to remember is whether you see yourself surrounded by the Word of God in people, art, and worship or if you see the Word of God bound in the book in your hand, to be successful Logos must meet the needs of both of us.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262981#Comment_1262981

What will it cost Faithlife to hire someone like Morris Proctor to create videos for how to take advantage of the features?

You realize, I assume, that he was their official trainer so in a sense that is what they have done for years.

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262990#Comment_1262990

1Cor10 31">What will it cost Faithlife to hire someone like Morris Proctor to create videos for how to take advantage of the features?

You realize, I assume, that he was their official trainer so in a sense that is what they have done for years.

Yes. I even heard that he actually trained Faithlife employees also! But people who are spending, say, $200/year on Logos products don't want to spend another $240/year on MP Seminars to get to know how to use the software.

I know Faithlife produces many help videos, but they are clearly not at the same level as MP Seminars and not organized as well either. Otherwise, MP Seminars wouldn't have survived and thrived. So, my point is, create MP Seminars-type help videos internally by hiring someone and then make it available for FREE for everyone. Faithlife should think of hiring this MP-type person as additional marketing expense. Having these help videos will quieten everyone because Faithlife can simply say "Go watch the videos". Additionally, they could cut product-related (not sales) customer service people because all you need is just a few people to answer product-related questions. The only answer needed would be "Go watch video X" where X will depend on the question posed by the customer. In fact, with a little training on prior customer emails, AI can generate this "Go watch video X" response and 1-2 employees could simply verify that AI-generated X is, indeed, correct.

My gut instinct tells me that Faithlife can probably lower their employee cost if they follow my suggestion because (i) Cost of hiring one MP-type person < Savings in employee costs of people who can be cut because they are not needed anymore to answer product-related questions. (ii) There is likely to be greater sales of Logos products because people know that they will be able to use the product to its fullest potential.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1263006#Comment_1263006

Fr. Devin Roza and Fr. Andrew Dalton do a good job on the Verbum side. I only occasionally use the Logos training which I often fault for not using the current version of the software.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1262952#Comment_1262952

until they begin not filtering out potential customers with pretty but training-demanding designs.

A big AMEN to this! I as a majority of one... will stop using a program that I have to "go to camp" to learn how to use, every time I use it. A good example of what I am saying is, in Logos 9, the Search was so sophisticated that I (majority of one) stopped using it. Seems I could not make a simple search work for me in Logos 9.

They improved the Search in Logos 10... and I do use it.... but would argue still that the Search in Logos 10 could be improved more.

Logos is a "tool" to help me study my bible.... if it is so complicated that I have to spend my time re-learning the tool every time I use it, then I and I think others like me, will stop using it. And most of them will not say anything... they will just stop using it.

You can make it as complex as you want.... but most people are not that complex... and it's not about how smart the programmers are, it is about who is using what the programmers program and can the user actually use it.

The other thing that bugs me, is that if one does speak up and complain about some process in Logos, there are some in the forums that label you as a "trouble maker" or something and then harass you about it. This should not be. Let's work to make Logos better.

IMHO..... [8-|]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1263034#Comment_1263034

The other thing that bugs me, is that if one does speak up and complain about some process in Logos, there are some in the forums that label you as a "trouble maker" or something and then harass you about it. This should not be. Let's work to make Logos better.

I don't remember you, being a troublemaker. It's the nameless misbehave'ers (probably me!). But perspective is needed.

- Others sincerely disagree. But write seemingly (unintensionally) personal. Frustrates.

- Some have long moved past the problem. What problem?! Watch a video!

- Most look at the software, how it affects themselves. Not other groups (eg newbies, students, people with life's demands)

- And going off-course ... a golf game that heads for the weeds. Hey, guys!

- Finally, FL labor is limited these days. Consolidating to 'Logos' is probably just financial (which is good).

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1263037#Comment_1263037

Thanks DMB.

John

I've used LogosX since late 2009. That'd be about 14 years. And then Libby before that. But I never used the notes feature;

Me too. My story is a bit different, but I go way back to Libronix when you used to buy CD's in Christian bookstores. I abandoned Libronix at some point and Bibleworks became my go-to Bible software. I never used the notes feature in either package.

After Microsoft and Bibleworks both self-destructed, I made the decision to move from Windows to MacOS (not entirely successfully yet, but still working on it). I also tried to replace Bibleworks with Accordance. In hindsight, my timing was horrible as Accordance was just on the verge of making itself unstable and preventing anyone from reverting back to an older version.

I recently upgraded to L10 and have been very impressed with it so far. The Mobile app is good, much better than the competition. And (at least in my limited experience so far) everything is stable and works like it is supposed to. I am considering investing more into L10 at this point. The ability to add and search print books for me is one of those killer features that I have to have.

Since this thread is about notes, let me ask these questions here:

Do these notes automatically and reliably sync from mobile to desktop and back?
Are these notes reliably saved and recalled?
Are notes easily exported to other software?

The use of mobile devices is part of the world we live in today ... everything needs to sync up reliably.

The competition is failing badly at these basic tasks.

On a non-related issue: one disappointment a person (me) encounters with Logos is discovering a great feature, such as the ability to read the Greek New Testament to you while you read along ... only to find out "this feature does not work on mobile". A feature like that needs to be on mobile, that is likely where it would be used the most.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1263178#Comment_1263178

I recently upgraded to L10 and have been very impressed with it so far. The Mobile app is good, much better than the competition. And (at least in my limited experience so far) everything is stable and works like it is supposed to. I am considering investing more into L10 at this point. The ability to add and search print books for me is one of those killer features that I have to have

I think you'll enjoy your decision. I still use Bibleworks (like the discipline, and a few of the books), and Accordance (primarily the graphics). My uninformed opinion is that Accordance will hobble along for awhile, so I still buy for the graphics.

Do these notes automatically and reliably sync from mobile to desktop and back?

Your question on notes ... they seem to work fine (sync, etc). Every now and then, someone has a hiccup on the sync'ing. But pretty stable. The missing features on mobile will likely be a permenent issue ... meaning that development is first on the desktop, and mobile catches up. I suspect many would like to be iPad-only. Exporting notes, really depends on the viability of your target (translation of 'milestones', etc).

For those features you REALLY need on mobile, you're welcome to participate in their feedback program (votes).

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1263008#Comment_1263008

Fr. Devin Roza and Fr. Andrew Dalton do a good job on the Verbum side. I only occasionally use the Logos training which I often fault for not using the current version of the software.

Thanks. I didn't realize I have their videos. I will not go watch their videos given your recommendation.

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1263008#Comment_1263008

Fr. Devin Roza and Fr. Andrew Dalton do a good job on the Verbum side. I only occasionally use the Logos training which I often fault for not using the current version of the software.

Thanks. I didn't realize I have their videos. I will not go watch their videos given your recommendation.

Thanks. I didn't realize I have their videos. I will NOW (not "not") go watch their videos given your recommendation.

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