Is "repentance" a military term?

Ronald Quick
Ronald Quick Member Posts: 2,988 ✭✭✭
edited November 2024 in English Forum

I've heard preachers say that "repentance" is a military term which means "about-face", but I've searched the Greek word, μετανοέω, in my lexicons none discuss this being a military term.  Also, I have a number of commentaries, yet the only one I can find that says it is a military term is The Teacher's Commentary, which I've never heard of and I don't even know what I purchased to get it in my library.  I've copied the section below, but it doesn't say much about it.

"Repentance and faith. The word repent is a military term meaning make an about-face. The men to whom Peter spoke had refused to accept Jesus as Lord and Messiah. They had hesitated, then passively participated in His execution. Now they were asked to make a clear-cut commitment and symbolize their response of faith by public baptism. And if they did? Then everything that Jesus’ death and resurrection promised would become theirs: full forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. The God they had scorned would welcome even them and, entering their lives, fill them with power to launch out new lives."

Larry Richards and Lawrence O. Richards, The Teacher’s Commentary (Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1987), 767.

 

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  • Lee
    Lee Member Posts: 2,714 ✭✭✭

    This question shows off what Logos resources can do!

    TLDR - no. "About-face" is not etymologically attested. It is probably a case of "reverse etymology", like that old canard about the "dynamite power" (dynamis) of the Holy Spirit.

    For proof, read on.

  • Lee
    Lee Member Posts: 2,714 ✭✭✭

    LSJ:

    μετανοέω, perceive afterwards or too late, opp. προνοέω, Epich. [280]; opp. προβουλεύομαι, Democr.66; concur subsequently, τισι BGU747i11 (ii A.D.).

    2. change one’s mind or purpose, Pl.Euthd.279c, Men.Epit.72; μ. μὴ οὔτε .. τῶν χαλεπῶν ἔργων ᾖ τὸ .. ἄρχειν change one’s opinion and think that it is not .., X.Cyr.1.1.3.
    3. repent, Antipho 2.4.12; ἐν τοῖς ἀνηκέστοις Id.5.91: freq. in LXX and NT, Si.48.15, al.; ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας Act.Ap.8.22; ἐκ τῶν ἔργων Apoc.9.20; ἐπὶ τῇ ἀκαθαρσίᾳ 2Ep.Cor.12.21, cf. OGI751.9 (Amblada, ii B.C.); ἐπί τινι Luc.Salt.84, etc.; περί τινων Plu.Galb.6; τοῖς πεπραγμένοις Id.Agis19: c. part., μ. γενόμενος Ἕλλην Luc.Am.36.
    4. c. acc., repent of, τὴν ἄφιξιν J.BJ4.4.5.

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,460 ✭✭✭✭

    Adding to Lee, per Spicq and then modernized etymologically, Monday morning quaterbacking with a measurable regret.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Lee
    Lee Member Posts: 2,714 ✭✭✭

    M-M:

    A few exx. of this important verb can be quoted from our sources—PSI V. 4959 (B.C. 258–7) νυνὶ δὲ μετανενόηκεν διὰ τὸ ἐπ[ι]τετιμῆσθαι ὑπὸ κτλ., P Gurob 63 (B.C. 214) ἐ̣άμπερ μὴ βούλησθε μετανοῆ[σαι—in a broken context, OGIS 7519 (ii/B.C.) θεωρῶν οὖν ὑμᾶς μετανενοηκότας τε ἐπὶ τοῖ[ς] προημαρτημένοις (cf. 2 Cor 12:21), BGU III. 747i. 11 (A.D. 139) οἰό[μ]ενος με[τ]ανοή[σι]ν (l. μετανοήσειν) ἡμεῖν ἐπῖχό[ν] (l. ἐπεῖχόν) σοι τῷ κυρίῳ δηλῶσαι, P Tebt II. 4245 (late iii/A.D.) εἰ μὲν ἐπιμένις σου τῇ ἀπονοίᾳ, συνχέ(= αί)ρω σοι· εἰ δὲ μετανοεῖς, σὺ οἶδας, “if you persist in your folly, I congratulate you; if you repent, you only know” (Edd.), BGU IV. 1024iv. 25 (end of iv/A.D.) ὑπὸ γὰ]ρ̣ τοῦ ἐπικιμέν[ου] αὐτῷ ἔρωτος [παρῆλθεν μ]ετανοῶν. In P Lond 89722 (A.D. 84) (= III. p. 207) παρακαλῶι δὲ σὲ εἵνα μὴ μελ̣ανήσης, the editor suggests that for μελ̣ανήσης we may perhaps read μετανήσῃς for μετανοήσῃς. See also Menandrea p. 1272 where the verb is used of “change of mind.” Its meaning deepens with Christianity, and in the NT it is more than “repent,” and indicates a complete change of attitude, spiritual and moral, towards God. MGr μετανοιώνω, “repent.”

  • Lee
    Lee Member Posts: 2,714 ✭✭✭

    BDAG:

    μετανοέω fut. μετανοήσω; 1 aor. μετενόησα (ἐμετενόησαν w. double augment ApcEsdr 2:24) (s. next entry; Antiphon+)


    change one’s mind Hv 3, 7, 3; m 11:4 (cp. Diod S 15, 47, 3 μετενόησεν ὁ δῆμος; 17, 5, 1; Epict. 2, 22, 35; Appian, Hann. 35 §151, Mithrid. 58 §238; Stob., Ecl. II 113, 5ff W.; PSI 495, 9 [258 B.C.]; Jos., Vi. 110; 262), then

    feel remorse, repent, be converted (in a variety of relationships and in connection w. varied responsibilities, moral, political, social or religious: X., Hell. 1, 7, 19 οὐ μετανοήσαντες ὕστερον εὑρήσετε σφᾶς αὐτοὺς ἡμαρτηκότας τὰ μέγιστα ἐς θεούς τε καὶ ὑμᾶς αὐτούς= instead of realizing too late that you have grossly sinned against the gods; Plut., Vi. Camill. 143 [29, 3], Galba 1055 [6, 4], also Mor. 74c; M. Ant. 8, 2 and 53; Ps.-Lucian, De Salt. 84 μετανοῆσαι ἐφʼ οἷς ἐποίησεν; Herm. Wr. 1, 28; OGI 751, 9 [II B.C.] θεωρῶν οὖν ὑμᾶς μετανενοηκότας τε ἐπὶ τοῖς προημαρτημένοις; SIG 1268, 2, 8 [III B.C.] ἁμαρτὼν μετανόει; PSI 495, 9 [258/257 B.C.]; BGU 747 I, 11; 1024 IV, 25; PTebt 424, 5; Is 46:8; Jer 8:6; Sir 17:24; 48:15; oft. Test12 Patr [s. index]; Philo [s. μετάνοια]; Jos., Bell. 5, 415, Ant. 7, 153; 320; Just.) in (religio-)ethical sense ἐν σάκκῳ καὶ σποδῷ μ. repent in sackcloth and ashes Mt 11:21; Lk 10:13. As a prerequisite for experiencing the Reign of God in the preaching of John the Baptist and Jesus Mt 3:2; 4:17; Mk 1:15. As the subject of the disciples’ proclamation 6:12; Ac 17:30; 26:20. Failure to repent leads to destruction Lk 13:3, 5; Mt 11:20 (ἢ … μετανοήσωσιν ἢ ἐπιμείναντες δικαίως κριθῶσι Hippol., Ref. 1, pref. 2). Repentance saves (cp. Philo, Spec. Leg. 1, 239 ὁ μετανοῶν σῴζεται; 253; Just., D. 141, 2 ἐὰν μετανοήσωσι, πάντες … τυχεῖν τοῦ παρὰ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐλέους δύνανται) 12:41; Lk 11:32; cp. 15:7, 10; 16:30. μ. εἰς τὸ κήρυγμά τινος repent at or because of someone’s proclamation Mt 12:41; Lk 11:32 (B-D-F §207, 1; Rob. 593; s. εἰς 10a). W. ἐπί τινι to denote the reason repent of, because of someth. (Chariton 3, 3, 11; Ps.-Lucian, Salt. 84; M. Ant. 8, 2; 10; 53; Jo 2:13; Jon 3:10; 4:2; Am 7:3, 6; Prayer of Manasseh [=Odes 12] 7; TestJud 15:4; Philo, Virt. 180; Jos., Ant. 7, 264; Just., D. 95, 3.—B-D-F §235, 2) ἐπὶ τῇ ἀκαθαρσίᾳ of their immorality 2 Cor 12:21. ἐπὶ τοῖς ἁμαρτήμασιν of their sins 1 Cl 7:7 (Just., D. 141, 2; cp. OGI 751, 9f). ἐπί w. subst. inf. foll. MPol 7:3 (Just., D. 123, 6). Also διά τι Hv 3, 7, 2. Since in μ. the negative impulse of turning away is dominant, it is also used w. ἀπό τινος: repent and turn away from someth. ἀπὸ τῆς κακίας (Jer 8:6; Just., D. 109, 1) Ac 8:22 (MWilcox, The Semitisms of Ac, ’65, 102–105). ἀπὸ τῆς ἀνομίας 1 Cl 8:3 (quot. of unknown orig.). Also ἔκ τινος Rv 2:21b, 22; 9:20f; 16:11. W. ἐπιστρέφειν ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν Ac 26:20. μ. εἰς ἑνότητα θεοῦ turn in repentance to the unity of God (which precludes all disunity) IPhld 8:1b; cp. ISm 9:1. But μ. εἰς τὸ πάθος repent of the way they think about the suffering (of Christ, which the Docetists deny) 5:3. W. inf. foll. Rv 16:9. W. ὅτι foll. repent because or that (Jos., Ant. 2, 315) Hm 10, 2, 3. W. adv. ἀδιστάκτως Hs 8, 10, 3. βραδύτερον Hs 8, 7, 3; 8, 8, 3b. πυκνῶς m 11:4. ταχύ Hs 8, 7, 5; 8, 8, 3a; 5b; 8, 10, 1; 9, 19, 2; 9, 21, 4; 9, 23, 2c. μ. ἐξ ὅλης (τῆς) καρδίας repent w. the whole heart 2 Cl 8:2; 17:1; 19:1; Hv 1, 3, 2; 2, 2, 4; 3, 13, 4b; 4, 2, 5; m 5, 1, 7; 12, 6, 1; Hs 7:4; 8, 11, 3. μ. ἐξ εἰλικρινοῦς καρδίας repent w. a sincere heart 2 Cl 9:8.—The word is found further, and used abs. (Diod S 13, 53, 3; Epict., En 34; Oenomaus [time of Hadrian] in Eus., PE 5, 19, 1 μετανοεῖτε as directive; Philo, Mos. 2, 167 al.; Jos., Ant. 2, 322; Just., D. 12, 2; Theoph. Ant. 3, 24 [p. 254, 17]; εἰ ἤκουσαν μετανοήσαντες, οὐκ ἐπήγετο ὁ κατακλυσμός Did., Gen. 186, 9; ἁμαρτωλὸς … πρὸς το͂ μετανοεῖν πορευόμενος Orig., C. Cels 3, 64, 5) Lk 17:3f; Ac 2:38; 3:19; Rv 2:5a (Vi. Aesopi G 85 P. μετανόησον=take counsel with yourself), vs. 5b, 16, 21; 3:3, 19; 2 Cl 8:1, 2, 3; 13:1; 15:1; 16:1; IPhld 3:2; 8:1a; ISm 4:1; Hv 1, 1, 9; 3, 3, 2; 3, 5, 5; 3, 7, 6; 3, 13, 4a; 5:7; m 4, 1, 5; 7ff; 4, 2, 2; 4, 3, 6; 9:6; 10, 2, 4; 12, 3, 3; Hs 4:4; 6, 1, 3f; 6, 3, 6; 6, 5, 7; 7:2; 4f; 8, 6, 1ff; 8, 7, 2f; 8, 8, 2; 5a; 8, 9, 2; 4; 8, 11, 1f; 9, 14, 1f; 9, 20, 4; 9, 22, 3f; 9, 23, 2; 5; 9, 26, 6; 8; D 10:6; 15:3; PtK 3 p. 15, 11; 27.—S. also MPol 9:2; 11:1f, in the sense regret having become a Christian; AcPl Ha 1, 17.—Windisch, Exc. on 2 Cor 7:10 p. 233f; Norden, Agn. Th. 134ff; FShipham, ET 46, ’35, 277–80; EDietrich, D. Umkehr (Bekehrg. u. Busse) im AT u. im Judent. b. bes. Berücksichtigg. der ntl. Zeit ’36; HPohlmann, D. Metanoia ’38; OMichel, EvTh 5, ’38, 403–14; BPoschmann, Paenitentia secunda ’40, 1–205 (NT and Apost. Fathers).—On the distinctive character of NT usage s. Thompson 28f, s.v. μεταμέλομαι, end.—B. 1123. DELG s.v. νόος. M-M. TW. Spicq.

  • Lee
    Lee Member Posts: 2,714 ✭✭✭

    NIDNTTE:

    GL Both the vb. μετανοέω and the noun μετάνοια (from the prep. μετά G3552 [“with, after,” but used in compounds to indicate change] and the vb. νοέω G3783 [“to understand, think”]) are attested no later than the 5th cent. BC, but these terms are used infreq. (and the noun rarely) during the class. period; they become more common in the Hel. age (e.g., each is used several times by Polyb.). The word group conveys the idea of thinking differently, and if the change of mind involves the recognition that the previous opinion was false or bad, we get the sense of feeling remorse or regret. In ancient Gk. culture, however, the thought of a radical change in a person’s life as a whole does not seem to play an important role. Thus the Christian concept of conversion is not derived from Gk. thought, and its origin must be sought elsewhere.

    JL 1 In the LXX μετάνοια occurs only 7×, and only once in the canonical Heb. books, namely Prov 14:15, which says that, in contrast to the gullible, simpleminded person, πανοῦργος … ἔρχεται εἰς μετάνοιαν, lit., “a clever person comes to a change of mind,” i.e., shows thoughtfulness (but even here the Heb. text reads differently). All remaining occurrences are found in the Apoc., where it is used of repentance from sins (Wis 11:23; 12:10, 19; Sir 44:16; Pr Man 8 = Odes 12.8 [2×]).

    The vb. μετανοέω is used 24× (incl. 5× in Jeremiah); although it renders several Heb. terms in isolated cases, it most freq. stands for נחם H5714 niph., and in most instances it is used with ref. to God. Thus we read, in the context of Saul’s punishment, that God οὐκ ἀποστρέψει οὐδὲ μετανοήσει ὅτι οὐχ ὡς ἄνθρωπός ἐστιν τοῦ μετανοῆσαι αὐτός, “will not turn back [Heb. יְשַׁקֵּר, ‘deceive’] or change his mind, for he is not like a human, that he should change his mind” (1 Sam 15:29 NETS [contrast the use of Heb. נחם in 15:11]; cf. also Jer 4:28; Zech 8:14). Elsewhere, however, the point is made that God does change his mind in the sense that, because of his mercy, he relents from bringing judgment on sinful human beings (Jer 18:8; Joel 2:13–14; Amos 7:3, 6; Jonah 3:9–10). In some passages, mainly in the Apoc., human repentance is in view (e.g., Jer 8:6; 31:19 [LXX 38:19]; Wis 5:3; Sir 17:24; 48:15; Pr Man 13 = Odes 12.13), but the concept of spiritual conversion to God is more commonly expressed with ἐπιστρέφω G2188 (see στρέφω G5138).

    2 By contrast, μετάνοια and μετανοέω become the characteristic terms for conversion in later Jewish-Gk. writings. This shift in usage is evident in the refs. from the Apoc. already mentioned and even more so in the Pseud. writings (e.g., Sib. Or. 1.129 et al.; T. Reu. 1.9; 2.1.; T. Jud. 19.2; Jos. Asen. 15.6–8). It is striking that the word group is common in Philo (c. 65×) and Jos. (c. 75×), both of whom use the terms mainly to denote repentance of one’s sin (cf. esp. Philo’s extended discussion in Virt. 175–86; for more detail, see J. Behm in TDNT 4:991–95). Some have thought that whereas ἐπιστρέφω focuses on the concrete, physical motion implied by the OT use of שׁוּב I H8740 (e.g., going to the temple in Jerusalem, returning to the Holy Land), μετανοέω directs attention to the thought or the will. It would be a mistake, however, to think that this lexical aspect intellectualizes the concept. The term has in view the conversion of the whole person.


    NT 1 The noun μετάνοια occurs 22× in the NT, but half of the occurrences are found in Luke-Acts (only 4× in the Pauline corpus, 3× in Hebrews, 2× in Matthew, plus Mark 1:4 and 2 Pet 3:9). The vb. μετανοέω is used 34×, with 14 instances in Luke-Acts and 12 in Revelation (otherwise 5× in Matthew, 2× in Mark, and 1× in Paul [2 Cor 12:21]). The adj. ἀμετανόητος, “unrepentant,” which occurs only in Rom 2:5, is attested only once prior to the NT (T. Gad 7.5, unless Christian influence lies behind this passage); later the term is often used with a different sense, “not to be regretted, unchangeable” (e.g., Lucian Abdic. 11).

    2 The closest link with the prophetic call is undoubtedly found in the ministry of John the Baptist, who called the people to a “baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins” (Mark 1:4 par. Luke 3:3; cf. Matt 3:2, 11; Acts 13:24; 19:4) and to produce its corresponding fruit, i.e., to show the genuineness of their repentance through their conduct (Matt 3:8 par. Luke 3:8). But whereas the motivation for repentance in the OT was linked with the past—characterized by social unrighteousness and idolatry—for John it was that “the kingdom of heaven has come near” (Matt 3:2). Those wishing to escape judgment (cf. 3:10) must repent, so that their whole lives may be changed and brought into a new relationship with God.

    3 According to the Synoptics, the preaching of Jesus was virtually identical to that of the Baptist: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near” (Matt 4:17; cf. Mark 1:15). The clear difference between them, however, was that Jesus did not, as did John, look for one to follow him (Matt 3:11 par.). He saw in his own coming the beginning of God’s decisive work (11:6; Luke 11:20; 17:21)—hence the woes addressed to the towns that were not ready to repent (Matt 11:20–24 par.). That is why the inhabitants of Nineveh will find it better in the day of judgment than will the contemporaries of Jesus. The former “repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now something greater than Jonah is here” (12:41 par.). Thus repentance is viewed in terms of commitment to a person; the call to repentance becomes a call to discipleship. So repentance, faith, and discipleship are different aspects of the same thing (Mark 1:15, “Repent and believe”).
    According to Luke 5:32, Jesus stated that he had come (ἐλήλυθα) to call the sinners, not the righteous, εἰς μετάνοιαν, “to repentance” (the par. in Matt 9:9 and Mark 3:13 do not incl. this phrase). Because God has turned to sinners through the coming of Jesus, sinners may and should turn to God. Hence conversion and repentance are accompanied by joy, for they mean the opening up of life for the one who has turned. The parables in Luke 15 bear testimony to the joy of God over the sinner who repents and calls on others to share it (cf. 15:7, 10). God’s gift to people in their conversion is life. When the parable of the prodigal son pictures conversion as a return to the Father, it can be said of the one who has repented, “this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found” (15:24; cf. v. 32).
    One should keep in mind that there are many passages in the Gospels where the terms μετάνοια and μετανοέω do not appear, but in which the thought of repentance is clearly present. For instance, “Truly I tell you, unless you change [στραφῆτε] and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 18:3); if we wish to become Jesus’ disciples, we must be willing to “let go” (ἀποτάσσω G698) of all our possessions (Luke 14:33). These and other statements help us to see to what extent Jesus’ message was determined by the call to repent in the light of God’s sovereign rule, which he himself had brought in.

    4 Primitive Christian preaching continued the call for repentance (cf. Mark 6:12 and the sermons in Acts). This missionary preaching linked with the call for repentance all the elements we have already met: the call to faith (Acts 20:21; 26:18; 19:4) and to be baptized (2:38), the promise of forgiveness of sins (Luke 24:47; Acts 3:19; 5:31), and the assurance of life and salvation (11:18; 2 Cor 7:9–10). Conversion is turning from evil (Acts 8:22; 2 Cor 12:21; Rev 2:21–22) to God (Acts 20:21; 26:20; Rev 16:9). In Acts 3:19 and 26:20 μετανοέω and ἐπιστρέφω are placed side by side as equivalent terms, though in these cases the former may focus on the abandonment of evil and the latter on the turning to God.

    5 The fact that this word group occurs rarely in the Pauline writings and not at all in the Johannine corpus (apart from Revelation) does not mean that the idea of conversion is not present in them, but only that in the meantime a more specialized terminology had developed. Both Paul and John convey the idea of conversion by highlighting faith. Paul speaks of faith as being in Christ, as the dying and rising of a person with Christ, as the new creation, as putting on a new self. The Johannine lit. represents the new life in Christ as new birth, as a passing from death to life and from darkness to light, or as the victory of truth over falsehood, and of love over hate.

    6 The early church soon began to consider whether it might be poss. for someone to turn repeatedly to God. The question arose from experiences in their missionary activity and from certain elements in their tradition; e.g., after Peter had long been following Jesus he was told, “when you have turned back …” (Luke 22:32, where ἐπιστρέφω is used). Some believe that the writer of Hebrews took the matter to its logical conclusion; they see Heb 6:1–8 as rejecting the possibility of a second repentance. In any case, the passage is intended to stress the absoluteness of conversion over against a form of Christian faith that was lapsing into apathy. Elsewhere the writer suggests that conversion was not just an independent human act but that God must give a “chance to repent” (12:17 NRSV; μετανοίας τόπον, lit., “a place of repentance”). A person who sins deliberately, i.e., defiantly, after receiving enlightenment incurs God’s judgment (6:8; 10:26–27). Such a heavy emphasis on the finality of conversion does not exclude God’s all-embracing desire to save. He is patient, “not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Pet 3:9). Rather it stresses the absoluteness of his mercy: God saves completely and finally.

  • Paul
    Paul Member Posts: 500 ✭✭

    I've heard preachers say that "repentance" is a military term which means "about-face", but I've searched the Greek word, μετανοέω, in my lexicons none discuss this being a military term.  Also, I have a number of commentaries, yet the only one I can find that says it is a military term is The Teacher's Commentary, which I've never heard of and I don't even know what I purchased to get it in my library.  I've copied the section below, but it doesn't say much about it.

    "Repentance and faith. The word repent is a military term meaning make an about-face. The men to whom Peter spoke had refused to accept Jesus as Lord and Messiah. They had hesitated, then passively participated in His execution. Now they were asked to make a clear-cut commitment and symbolize their response of faith by public baptism. And if they did? Then everything that Jesus’ death and resurrection promised would become theirs: full forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit. The God they had scorned would welcome even them and, entering their lives, fill them with power to launch out new lives."

    Larry Richards and Lawrence O. Richards, The Teacher’s Commentary (Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1987), 767.

     

    I did a search of my resources and could not find any reference suggesting repentance could be a military term. However, I did find the following comment in an article on repentance in one resource:    Repentance is a turnabout, or “about turn” in military terms.

     Source:  Anthony C. Thiselton, “Repentance, Repent,” The Thiselton Companion to Christian Theology (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2015), 732.

    On that basis, while it may not actually be a military term as such, repentance could be likened to an 'about turn' in military parlance.

    Perhaps on a similar note, I found that in a discussion on James 4:7-12) the term ‘submit” (which also arises in 1 Peter 2:13 and 1 Peter 5:5) received this comment in one resource:   

    “Therefore submit to God …” was given as the first duty of a repentant Christian. “Submit,” in the original language, was a military term meaning to get into one’s proper rank or order.

    Source:  Marni Shideler McKenzie, Romans, Galatians, and James, vol. 3 (Dickson, TN: Explorer’s Bible Study, 2002), 67.

    I guess that it may be a traditional military approach to punish ‘insubordination’, an improper refusal to submit to proper authority. Yet I would  also hesitate to claim that 'submit' is a military term used in NT times, unless there was evidence to support that position. Claims of a military connection for such terms may simply be misleading. Hope that helps. Keep well  Paul 

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    Left, righ, left, right....stop! Repent soldiers!

    Hahaha nah, I don’t think is a military term. 😂

    DAL

  • Ronald Quick
    Ronald Quick Member Posts: 2,988 ✭✭✭

    A lot of helpful information.  I couldn't find anything to support this "definition" of the repentance and I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

    Thanks!

  • Dayasagar
    Dayasagar Member Posts: 1 ✭✭

    I am studying the same term because I recently faced with different meaning than it used to be (from david pawson ,N.T wright....) .So What are your conclusion of the research?

  • Gary Osborne
    Gary Osborne Member Posts: 325 ✭✭

    Dayasagar said:

    I am studying the same term because I recently faced with different meaning than it used to be (from david pawson ,N.T wright....) .So What are your conclusion of the research?

    While the origin and basic meaning of the word in Greek doesn’t have a connection to our modern military “about face” marching order, I’d hope no one here is suggesting that repentance cannot be likened to an ”about face”.  It most surely can.  Preachers and teachers should be careful to Make clear it isn’t a military term at its root, but they can rightly say repentance would be similar to an “about face”.

  • JT (alabama24)
    JT (alabama24) MVP Posts: 36,523

    Ronald - The applaud you for taking the time to research it. As teachers/preachers, we lose credibility when we state as fact things which we are unsure about (or worse, which are demonstrably false!). 

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  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    Ronald - The applaud you for taking the time to research it. As teachers/preachers, we lose credibility when we state as fact things which we are unsure about (or worse, which are demonstrably false!). 

    Yep, like a preacher I heard once saying there were 6 hours of darkness during Jesus’s crucifixion when it was only 3 and it started at the 6th hour.  When I told him about it he said he got it from a friend 🤦🏻‍♂️

    DAL

  • Beloved Amodeo
    Beloved Amodeo Member Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭

    I've heard preachers say that "repentance" is a military term which means "about-face", but I've searched the Greek word, μετανοέω, in my lexicons none discuss this being a military term.  Also, I have a number of commentaries, yet the only one I can find that says it is a military term is The Teacher's Commentary, which I've never heard of and I don't even know what I purchased to get it in my library.  I've copied the section below, but it doesn't say much about it.

    Ronald,

    You've had some great input on this issue. I would like to offer you my approach. I sought to determine what the Greek military term for about-face was. What I found may be of interest to you. First, I searched on line and found this


    Exeligmos (GR): counter-march. 
    Exeligmos Lakoonikos (GR): ‘Laconian counter-march’; manoeuvre in which the file-closer does an about-face on the spot and the file-leader leads his men past the file-closer. 
    Exeligmos Makedonikos (GR): ‘Macedonian counter-march’; manoeuvre in which the file-leader does an about-face on the spot and the rear-rankers counter-march to form up behind him.

    Following up with a search of Logos and found

    ἐξελιγμός, ὁ, countermarching, ἐ. Μακεδονικός, Λακωνικός, Κρητικός, Ascl.Tact.10.13, 14, 15, cf. Arr.Tact.23.2, 3, 4; οἱ ἐπὶ τῶν ἵππων ἐ. Them.Or.1.2b.

    Liddell, H. G., Scott, R., Jones, H. S., & McKenzie, R. (1996). A Greek-English lexicon (p. 590). Oxford: Clarendon Press.

    The term was also used in astronomy with regards to planetary revolutions. I don't know about your facility with the Greek, but I also found that it is referred to in a Perseus volume called Tactica.

    I hope I have contributed positively to the discussion on this interesting topic. Blessings!

    Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

    International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

    MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD

  • EastTN
    EastTN Member Posts: 1,518 ✭✭✭

    Ronald - The applaud you for taking the time to research it. As teachers/preachers, we lose credibility when we state as fact things which we are unsure about (or worse, which are demonstrably false!). 

    This is an incredibly important point.

  • Liam Maguire
    Liam Maguire Member Posts: 617 ✭✭

    Beloved said:

    I would like to offer you my approach. I sought to determine what the Greek military term for about-face was. 

    What a great methodology! I'll certainly be using this in the future, thank you for sharing.

    Carpe verbum.

  • David Staveley
    David Staveley Member Posts: 89 ✭✭

    Ronald - The applaud you for taking the time to research it. As teachers/preachers, we lose credibility when we state as fact things which we are unsure about (or worse, which are demonstrably false!). 

    The best thing about the dissemination of God's Word in democratic countries, either through the writing of books or preaching is that anyone can do it. You don't need a Government licence to do it; you don't necessarily need a University degree to do it; In fact, you don't need anyone's permission, other than that from the LORD Almighty Himself. And as such we have the freedom to say pretty much whatever we like. Such is the blessing of Christian ministry.

    The worst thing about the dissemination of God's Word in democratic countries, either through the writing of books or preaching is that anyone can do it. You don't need a Government licence to do it; you don't necessarily need a University degree to do it; In fact, you don't need anyone's permission, other than that from the LORD Almighty Himself. And as such we have the freedom to say pretty much whatever we like. Such is the curse of Christian ministry.

    Dr David Staveley Professor of New Testament. Specializing in the Pauline Epistles, Apocalyptic Judaism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

  • Matt Hamrick
    Matt Hamrick Member Posts: 667 ✭✭

    It's not a term in the military we use but some soldiers now preaching illustrate it as the about face which is a military term. It's only natural civilian pastor's catch on using the same illustrations. 

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    It's not a term in the military we use but some soldiers now preaching illustrate it as the about face which is a military term. It's only natural civilian pastor's catch on using the same illustrations. 

    Bingo! Maybe that‘s what the preacher did, a comparison with the military term, and it just sounded as if he had said, “Repentance comes from a military term blah, blah, blah...” I think maybe that’s what happened, but then again many preachers just give out information without doing their research properly and double checking it.

    DAL

  • Hamilton Ramos
    Hamilton Ramos Member Posts: 1,033 ✭✭

    Hi Ronald:

    A different angle for consideration:

    Concepts in a contextual situation can be used to illustrate something important in another.

    Note the following:

    "During the pre- and early Christian period of Koine Greek (ca. 300 BC-100 AD) metanoiacontinued to carry the sense of a change of mind about someone or something. For example, Polybius (ca. 208-126 B.C.) used metanoia to refer to the Dardani, a people who had decided to attack Macedonia while Philip was away with his army. However, Philip caught wind of it and returned quickly. Even though the Dardani were close to Macedonia, when they heard that Philip was coming, they changed their minds. They broke off the attack before it even began.64"

    Quote from: 

    https://bible.org/seriespage/new-testament-repentance-lexical-considerations

    So from the above quote I can see a rough parallel: The Dardani changed their minds and did an about face, after understanding that an unwanted event (confrontation) was probable due to the coming of Philip.

    So the parallel in Spiritual dimension would be: we must change and do a 180 (metanoia), from our erring ways of living (as compared to God's moral  order) to avoid a future unwanted event (judgment and casting of self to the lake of fire).

    Now, the use of metanoia outside the Canon of the NT, and in a military type context, does not make the term military. But the term in that particular context helps express a concept that illustrates the situation we face in spiritual context.

    Just a different view.

  • Roy
    Roy Member Posts: 965 ✭✭

    Also, I have a number of commentaries, yet the only one I can find that says it is a military term is The Teacher's Commentary, which I've never heard of and I don't even know what I purchased to get it in my library.  I've copied the section below, but it doesn't say much about it.

    Like Ronald mentions in his post, the Teachers Commentary is the only resource that I could find that claims it is a military term, except for this...

    [quote]

    1Keh′r—en, v. I. a. to turn; das Schwert in die Scheide —en, to put up the sword into the sheath; eine Sache zum Besten —en, to make the best of a th.; die rauhe Seite heraus —en, to show one’s worst side; das Oberste zu unterst —en, to turn everything upside down. II. r. to turn; sich an einen (etwas) —en, to regard, heed, follow, stick to a p. (a thing); sich zur Buße —en, to become penitent. III. n. (aux. s.) to turn, return; to wheel round; rechts um —t (ench)! right about turn! —t! turn about! wheel! in sich (acc.) —en, to retire into oneself; repent. —t, n.; —t machen, to wheel (Mil.). Comp. —aus, m. concluding dance; clearance, turn out; flogging; end. —reim, m. refrain. —seite, f. reverse side, tail(s) (coll.); draw-back, disadvantage, the reverse of the medal. —wie′der, n. blind alley. —zeite, f. refrain, line recurring at the end of every stanza or part of a stanza.

    Karl Breul, “Keh′r—en (1),” Heath’s German-English Dictionary (Boston; New York; Chicago: D. C. Heath & Co., Publishers, 1906), 324.

    So a German dictionary says the english word repent is akin to one of their military terms. (if I read this correctly).

    This of course does NOT mean that the original Greek or Hebrew words were used as military terms. Just a rogue comment (and NO, I do not understand a lick of German).

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    Similar to what a preacher once said about the word “departure” in 2 Timothy 4:6.  He said Paul’s departure (death) could be compared to an ox 🐂 who had been working all day long under the sun with a yoke, but at the end of the day, at dawn, he was untied from the yoke to go home and rest.  The only problem is that I have not been able to find a lexicon that makes reference to that.  The only reference I’ve seen is loosing a boat 🚤  from its moorings to sail away. I guess some just change the metaphor to catch people’s attention? Oh well…

    DAL

  • NB.Mick
    NB.Mick MVP Posts: 16,262

    Roy said:

    1Keh′r—en, v. I. a. to turn; das Schwert in die Scheide —en, to put up the sword into the sheath; eine Sache zum Besten —en, to make the best of a th.; die rauhe Seite heraus —en, to show one’s worst side; das Oberste zu unterst —en, to turn everything upside down. II. r. to turn; sich an einen (etwas) —en, to regard, heed, follow, stick to a p. (a thing); sich zur Buße —en, to become penitent. III. n. (aux. s.) to turn, return; to wheel round; rechts um —t (ench)! right about turn! —t! turn about! wheel! in sich (acc.) —en, to retire into oneself; repent. —t, n.; —t machen, to wheel (Mil.). Comp. —aus, m. concluding dance; clearance, turn out; flogging; end. —reim, m. refrain. —seite, f. reverse side, tail(s) (coll.); draw-back, disadvantage, the reverse of the medal. —wie′der, n. blind alley. —zeite, f. refrain, line recurring at the end of every stanza or part of a stanza.

    Karl Breul, “Keh′r—en (1),” Heath’s German-English Dictionary (Boston; New York; Chicago: D. C. Heath & Co., Publishers, 1906), 324.

    So a German dictionary says the english word repent is akin to one of their military terms. (if I read this correctly).

    I don't think so. You highlighted two different entries in Heath's G-E Dictionary. Under the entry "kehr-" there is the sub-entry "in sich kehren" - marked orange - with the meanings "to retire into oneself" and "to repent" Then there is another entry "Kehrt, kehrt machen" - marked blue - which means "to wheel" in a military sense, also the command "kehrt!" or "kehrt um" may be used in the military (which in marching formation may be given with a loooong drawn "keeeeeeehrt..." and then a short explosive "um!"), but this has no connection whatsoever to repentance. German "umkehren" simply means turning around and the dictionary does not claim that the connection to repentance (as in inner turning around) has anything to do with the military.  

    Have joy in the Lord! Smile

  • Morgan
    Morgan Member Posts: 511 ✭✭✭

    N.T. Wright has an interesting note on pg. 250 of "Jesus and the Victory of God" that places repentance near a military context.Citing Josephus Life 110, a Jewish rebel is told to repent and believe in Josephus. That is, to abandon his revolutionary inclination and be loyal to Josephus. Still a far cry from "about face." It seems to me like μετανοέω was suitable for many situations, but not specific to any single one.

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭

    Then there is this....  biblical repentance is a change of heart reflected in a change of life.

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    xnman said:

    Then there is this....  biblical repentance is a change of heart reflected in a change of life.

    That’s what I’d go for.  “Scholars” tend to complicate things 😁

  • Brian Davidson
    Brian Davidson Member Posts: 827 ✭✭✭

    The "about-face" example might sound cheesy, but the idea probably comes from connecting μετανοέω to the use of שׁוּב, "to turn/return," in the OT (especially the prophets). The OT use of שׁוּב is the most important consideration for understanding the NT authors' use of μετανοέω. 

    So repentance is not really a formal "military term," but (1) turning is at the heart of repentance and (2) the concept of turning is used in military talk, too. 

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    DAL said:

    That’s what I’d go for.  “Scholars” tend to complicate things 😁

    Right but ... the forums are intended to be about software and resources AND Christian is unlikely to be able to quote a forum post as a reference. Furthermore, it ignores the issue as to "how" a reader came to the conclusion that is the meaning of "repentance" in scripture. The latter may not be of much interest to the average believer or the congregation of the average preacher but it can be critical for apologetics, polemics, spiritual formation, and academics. Don't knock (or mock) it. I've been reading some world-wide reflections recently which has reminded me how much of what we say is "obvious" is obvious only to a Western reader ... and the Bible was not written by "Westerners" ... they scarcely existed at the time the NT was written.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    DAL said:

    That’s what I’d go for.  “Scholars” tend to complicate things 😁

    Right but ... the forums are intended to be about software and resources AND Christian is unlikely to be able to quote a forum post as a reference. Furthermore, it ignores the issue as to "how" a reader came to the conclusion that is the meaning of "repentance" in scripture. The latter may not be of much interest to the average believer or the congregation of the average preacher but it can be critical for apologetics, polemics, spiritual formation, and academics. Don't knock (or mock) it. I've been reading some world-wide reflections recently which has reminded me how much of what we say is "obvious" is obvious only to a Western reader ... and the Bible was not written by "Westerners" ... they scarcely existed at the time the NT was written.

    Maybe that’s the problem.  The Bible is meant for all, but scholars have made the “eastern” and “western” applications/distinctions.  Then you just admitted to no one having the truth and nobody has come to the right conclusion because westerners have their own 😉

    DAL

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    DAL said:

    but scholars have made the “eastern” and “western” applications/distinctions

    Er ... ah ... you'll be hard pressed to support this. The Syriac/Greek/Latin distinction is very early in Church history. And no I didn't do this

    DAL said:

    Then you just admitted to no one having the truth and nobody has come to the right conclusion because westerners have their own

    The same truth is expressed in different ways in different cultures ... a basic principle behind some of the NT controversies. But we've been pulled OT.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • David Wanat
    David Wanat Member Posts: 1,834 ✭✭✭

    I believe the word repentance itself derives from the Latin paenĭtentĭa. As I understand it, it holds the same meaning as metanoia.

    WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
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  • Matt Hamrick
    Matt Hamrick Member Posts: 667 ✭✭

    The "about-face" example might sound cheesy, but the idea probably comes from connecting μετανοέω to the use of שׁוּב, "to turn/return," in the OT (especially the prophets). The OT use of שׁוּב is the most important consideration for understanding the NT authors' use of μετανοέω. 

    So repentance is not really a formal "military term," but (1) turning is at the heart of repentance and (2) the concept of turning is used in military talk, too. 

    I can assure you that about face which is a formal military command has absolutely nothing to do in any way, shape, or form with repentance. The concept of repentance is not talked about in the military except maybe by chaplains which is a very small aspect of the military. I stand on my comment from four years ago which you can find if you scroll up.

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    The same truth is expressed in different ways in different cultures ... a basic principle behind some of the NT controversies. But we've been pulled OT.

    Then why even bother to bring up westerners? We have it right and they have it right, it’s just expressed in different ways in different cultures! We’re all right, aren’t we? 😉

    DAL

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    I do have one question for the OP and Alexander: Do you guys mind sharing the sermon where you heard this about repentance? Maybe a second pair of ears might help catch something you guys didn’t catch the first time around.

    DAL

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    DAL said:

    We have it right and they have it right, it’s just expressed in different ways in different cultures! We’re all right, aren’t we? 😉

    That not what I said either ... but I won't try to explain.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • DAL
    DAL Member Posts: 10,865 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    DAL said:

    We have it right and they have it right, it’s just expressed in different ways in different cultures! We’re all right, aren’t we? 😉

    That not what I said either ... but I won't try to explain.

    Just teasing you MJ 😉 Life is too short to argue anymore 👌

    DAL

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭

    MJ. Smith said:

    DAL said:

    That’s what I’d go for.  “Scholars” tend to complicate things 😁

    Right but ... the forums are intended to be about software and resources AND Christian is unlikely to be able to quote a forum post as a reference. Furthermore, it ignores the issue as to "how" a reader came to the conclusion that is the meaning of "repentance" in scripture. The latter may not be of much interest to the average believer or the congregation of the average preacher but it can be critical for apologetics, polemics, spiritual formation, and academics. Don't knock (or mock) it. I've been reading some world-wide reflections recently which has reminded me how much of what we say is "obvious" is obvious only to a Western reader ... and the Bible was not written by "Westerners" ... they scarcely existed at the time the NT was written.

    As I understand it, the bible is a Logos resource... And as such notice what my "logos resource" (New King James Version) says about repent... "therefore I will judge you O house of Israel, everyone according to his ways," says the Lord God. "Repent, and turn from your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin." Ezekiel 18:30.   You can buy the New King James Version of the bible here.

    Again, repentance as shown in the verse, is a change of heart, reflected in a change of life. Israel had to change their heart and change their lives.

    Repentance was taught in the bible before the armies of the Roman Empire... just saying.... [8-|]

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • Ronald Quick
    Ronald Quick Member Posts: 2,988 ✭✭✭

    DAL said:

    Do you guys mind sharing the sermon where you heard this about repentance? Maybe a second pair of ears might help catch something you guys didn’t catch the first time around.

    I heard this in a lesson on repentance.  The focus was on explaining repentance in a way that someone wanting to be Christian would understand what the Bible said about it and what would be seen in a person's life who did repent.  The preacher didn't cite any sources, but said that repentance" is a military term which means "about-face."  The implication was that there would be a noticeable change in a person who repented.  Your life apart from Christ is heading on one direction, but completely changed toward God (an about-face) when they repented.

    One of the verses discussed was 2 Corinthians 7:10-11

    10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what avenging of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter.

     

    New American Standard Bible, electronic edition. (La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation, 1986), 2 Co 7:10–11.

        

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭

    DAL said:

    Do you guys mind sharing the sermon where you heard this about repentance? Maybe a second pair of ears might help catch something you guys didn’t catch the first time around.

    Dal ....  Look at Acts 13:16-41.  Paul's first sermon.... especially Acts 13:30 - "Truly, these times of ignorance, God overlooked, but now commands all men everwhere to repent."  Paul was telling all men to change their hearts and change their lives by turning away from sin. The same man, Paul, when he was before Agrippa said these words.... "but declared to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Jude, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance" - Acts 26:20.

    Again, the bible (NKJV is a Logos resource and can be bought at Logo.com) shows that repentance is not mere words but is a change of heart reflected in a change of life. Paul expected people to show "works befitting repentance". 

    I find it amazing when people want to look at the worldly writings to define things that God has already defined in His word.

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • Sam Shelton
    Sam Shelton Member Posts: 339 ✭✭

    xnman, I agree with your understanding of the word repent as it is translated into the NKJV from the original Greek. Most English translations do translate this word as repent (some use turn, change, or reform etc.). A study of the Greek word used here and elsewhere in the original Greek texts (Logos is very helpful in this regard) does tend to describe an internal change producing external results, as per your example (Acts 26:20, see also Matthew 3:8, 2 Corinthians 12:21, Hebrews 6:1, Revelation 2:5).

    Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14 

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭

    Thanks Sam.  I believe as Christians we should look to God's word for definitions that apply to living the Christian life. It it bothersome to me when people that call themselves Christians look to the world to describe and define the life Jesus wants us to live.

    But, sad to say, it seems that has happened all through history... From Adam to today.  [:(]

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,460 ✭✭✭✭

    xnman said:

    we should look to God's word

    But which language?  KJV sounds good, and inspired (Holy Spirit guided) too.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • xnman
    xnman Member Posts: 2,956 ✭✭✭

    DMB said:

    xnman said:

    we should look to God's word

    But which language?  KJV sounds good, and inspired (Holy Spirit guided) too.

    aaah yes!  But the NKJV is the version the apostles carried around in the hip pocket of their Levis....  [+o(] and the NKJV doesn't talk about unicorns as the KJV does (i.e. Num 23:22)...  [8-|]

    Years back in a study with an atheist, I used the KJV and the atheist asked me what a unicorn was.... then showed me that verse. I was not prepared then... And by the way, both the KJV and the NKJV can be bought on Logos.com. Just to clarify that we're talking about Logos resources....

    xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".

    Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!

  • Sam Shelton
    Sam Shelton Member Posts: 339 ✭✭

    I have found the World English Bible (WEB) to be of benefit for me of late, and I am glad that it is now available in Logos. It is a modern update of the American Standard Version (ASV), using the Majority Text for translation. One of the things I like about this translation is that it shares (in footnotes) differences found between the Majority Text, the Textus Receptus, and the Nestle-Aland/United Bible Societies critical text Greek New Testament — the three of these being the source text for a great number of translations of scripture into English. Lacking the original manuscripts from the original writers, being able to compare these texts helps in my study of God’s word.

    Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14 

  • DMB
    DMB Member Posts: 14,460 ✭✭✭✭

    I have found the World English Bible (WEB) to be of benefit for me of late, and I am glad that it is now available in Logos. It is a modern update of the American Standard Version (ASV), using the Majority Text for translation.

    Tidbit ... Phillip Schaff, whose work (along with his son David) is well represented in Logos ... 

    https://www.logos.com/search?query=author%3Aschaff&sortBy=Relevance&limit=60&page=1&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=availableToMe 

    ... selected the committee members to do the early work preceding the ASV.

    My Dad was an ASV'er; my Mom converted to NKJV.  I guess Westcott never quite took hold, with them.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Jerry Bush
    Jerry Bush Member Posts: 1,159 ✭✭✭

    DAL said:

    xnman said:

    Then there is this....  biblical repentance is a change of heart reflected in a change of life.

    That’s what I’d go for.  “Scholars” tend to complicate things 😁

    Oh how how how true this is. It floors me sometimes.

    Macbook Air (2024), Apple M2, 16gb Ram, Mac Sequoia, 1TB storage

  • Beloved Amodeo
    Beloved Amodeo Member Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭

    Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

    International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

    MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD

  • MJ. Smith
    MJ. Smith MVP Posts: 55,128

    Experimental search thinks so,

    Does that mean I should label the resources found unreliable as this thread makes clear the assertion it is a military terms is at least unproven and perhaps counterfactual?[:D]

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."