Is "repentance" a military term?
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I would say, consult the the sources and decide for yourself if the information can be counted reliable.[8-|]MJ. Smith said:Beloved Amodeo said:Experimental search thinks so,
Does that mean I should label the resources found unreliable as this thread makes clear the assertion it is a military terms is at least unproven and perhaps counterfactual?
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Titus For You glossary: Repent, repentance: literally, a military word meaning “about turn”. Used to mean turning around to live the opposite way to previously.
Acts For You, Romans For You, 2 Corinthians For You and Judges For you have virtually the same answer.
Courson’s Application Commentary Psalms Vol. 2: The word “repentance” is a military term that simply means “about face.” As they march in one direction, when soldiers hear the command, “About face” they turn around and being marching in the opposite direction. Repentance means you were once moving one way, but you turn around and move in exactly the opposite direction.
The Teacher’s Commentary: The word repent is a military term meaning make an about-face. The men to whom Peter spoke had refused to accept Jesus as Lord and Messiah. They had hesitated, then passively participated in His execution. Now they were asked to make a clear-cut commitment and symbolize their response of faith by public baptism. And if they did? Then everything that Jesus’ death and resurrection promised would become theirs: full forgiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.
And there are others, but none cite a lexicon to back up their claim. It seems to me they just thought it was a cute way of putting it to catch people’s attention in case they were falling asleep or in case a veteran was present in the audience.
My conclusion: I find no harm with the illustration as long as the point is made that someone needs to make a conscious effort to turn their lives around and not wait for that to happen as some sort of miraculous gift one is waiting to happen in his or her life. In other words, the church shouldn’t be divided over this. I have spoken! 😉
DAL
PS. Not to mention that some soldiers follow the about-face not from the heart, but because they’re forced to do so. So you can’t leave the heart out of an action. We must obey with a cheerful heart…if you would 😁
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DAL said:
My conclusion: I find no harm with the illustration as long as the point is made that someone needs to make a conscious effort to turn their lives around and not wait for that to happen as some sort of miraculous gift one is waiting to happen in his or her life. In other words, the church shouldn’t be divided over this. I have spoken! 😉
DAL
PS. Not to mention that some soldiers follow the about-face not from the heart, but because they’re forced to do so. So you can’t leave the heart out of an action. We must obey with a cheerful heart…if you would 😁
Well said, DAL. Illustrations can be beneficial in helping people understand the truth of God's word.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Here’s a video that illustrates the about face for those unfamiliar with military facing movements: https://youtu.be/T0QP6_5Ky4Q
DAL
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DAL said:
My conclusion: I find no harm with the illustration as long as the point is made that someone needs to make a conscious effort to turn their lives around and not wait for that to happen as some sort of miraculous gift one is waiting to happen in his or her life. In other words, the church shouldn’t be divided over this. I have spoken!
I think you guys are trying hard to get the lipstick on the pig. In the first place, in battle, there's only one direction; the other is failure (presuming the purpose of armies, worldwide). And second, it's largely a guy thing. Half your congregation will think 'next?'. And last, it's just barely even true; your smart-guys will see thru the poor greek. Indeed, these days.
So, yes, a conscious decision, not an order from the pastor.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:DAL said:
My conclusion: I find no harm with the illustration as long as the point is made that someone needs to make a conscious effort to turn their lives around and not wait for that to happen as some sort of miraculous gift one is waiting to happen in his or her life. In other words, the church shouldn’t be divided over this. I have spoken!
I think you guys are trying hard to get the lipstick on the pig. In the first place, in battle, there's only one direction; the other is failure (presuming the purpose of armies, worldwide). And second, it's largely a guy thing. Half your congregation will think 'next?'. And last, it's just barely even true; your smart-guys will see thru the poor greek. Indeed, these days.
So, yes, a conscious decision, not an order from the pastor.
Well said!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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DMB said:DAL said:
My conclusion: I find no harm with the illustration as long as the point is made that someone needs to make a conscious effort to turn their lives around and not wait for that to happen as some sort of miraculous gift one is waiting to happen in his or her life. In other words, the church shouldn’t be divided over this. I have spoken!
I think you guys are trying hard to get the lipstick on the pig. In the first place, in battle, there's only one direction; the other is failure (presuming the purpose of armies, worldwide). And second, it's largely a guy thing. Half your congregation will think 'next?'. And last, it's just barely even true; your smart-guys will see thru the poor greek. Indeed, these days.
So, yes, a conscious decision, not an order from the pastor.
Sometimes reverse psychology works? 😂😂😂 but you are correct! Maybe in military context is just a turn and it’s just that, but oh how different that is when your heart, mind and life are doing the changing (I mean, the turning) 👍😁👌 And the phrase “trying hard to get the lipstick on the pig” just made my day 😂😂😂
DAL
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I have always thought that Logos would do well to have an etymological dictionary for English words. How many sermon illustrations have I heard (back in my Protestant days, a while back) where the point of the sermon was reinforced by the origins of English words. Whether we think it makes for a strong point or not, it still seems a favorite technique of many public speakers, and given the linguistic strengths of Logos, I am surprised that the etymologies of all English words are not available either in a single resource or in a dataset/Word Study/Information Panel/other tool.
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Br Damien-Joseph OSB said:
the etymologies of all English words are not available either in a single resource or in a dataset/Word Study/Information Panel/other tool.
I like this idea, D-J.
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Br Damien-Joseph OSB said:
I am surprised that the etymologies of all English words are not available either in a single resource or in a dataset/Word Study/Information Panel/other tool.
One simply adds Etymonline - Online Etymology Dictionary to the shortcut bar and you have an etymological dictionary that is probably better than any Logos would add. Add for the etymology of Hebrew name add The meaning of all names of MALE characters in the Bible: a list of all A-names (abarim-publications.com)
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I have covered this already but consider the bible predates our military by 1776 years. But ours is not the only military in history but the term about face is. In other militaries it's turn about. The bible in no way is from the military. In our world today previous soldiers like myself that got out and went into the ministry used the illustration that repentance is like a military about face. It's a good illustration but civilians take that illustration and put it into commentary we now read. The bible and any military now or in history has no bearing on each other. The military is used for warfare and that's not what the Bible teaches.
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In Acts 2:38, Peter did not mean "about face" as is used in military today. "About face" is just simple action of turning around without any change of heart. What Peter was talking about and all references to "repentance" in the bible means a change of heart, reflected in a change of life. Military just means to turn around, doesn't care about any change in the heart. Huge difference!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
In Acts 2:38, Peter did not mean "about face" as is used in military today. "About face" is just simple action of turning around without any change of heart. What Peter was talking about and all references to "repentance" in the bible means a change of heart, reflected in a change of life. Military just means to turn around, doesn't care about any change in the heart. Huge difference!
It's an illustration! Taking illustrations too literally, in every way you can imagine is a recipe for creating problems in understanding. The same thing happens when you do that with the parables that are found in the gospels. Use them to illustrate a point but don't over-literalize!
For God and For Neighbor
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This has been quite a discussion about the word repent. All of the discussion of military reminded me of the verse where Jesus is arrested, and the soldiers “went backwards” and fell to the ground. Some see in this a proof text for “slain in the sprit”. I am inclined to see this as a military maneuver. When Jesus identified himself, they may have been afraid they had just walked into an ambush.
How would a person search in Logos to find all available commentary about this passage?
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John said:
How would a person search in Logos to find all available commentary about this passage?
I would start with a Passage Guide and look at the Commentaries section
There is some information about this at https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360016462872-Passage-Guide
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Graham Criddle said:
I would start with a Passage Guide and look at the Commentaries section
There is some information about this at https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360016462872-Passage-Guide
I did this using the Logos web app. It is very convenient compared to booting up a Windows 10 virtual machine then starting up Logos.
None of the commentaries in my Library do much with this. But comparing translations does IMO shed some light on it. Years ago I had used the KJV which translates it as "they went backward, and fell to the ground". I think this language might lead a person to believe they "fell backward".
Modern translations seem to be unanimous they deliberately made a move. "drew back" NIV, NKJV, ESV.
NET sounds more like a military maneuver with "they retreated".
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John said:
NET sounds more like a military maneuver with "they retreated".
Hmm... where I live "retreat" is more apt to mean bear or cougar ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:John said:
NET sounds more like a military maneuver with "they retreated".
Hmm... where I live "retreat" is more apt to mean bear or cougar ...
1re•treat \ri-ˈtrēt\ noun
[Middle English retret, from Anglo-French retrait, from past participle of retraire to withdraw, from Latin retrahere, from re- + trahere to draw] 14th century
1 a (1): an act or process of withdrawing especially from what is difficult, dangerous, or disagreeable
(2): the process of receding from a position or state attained 〈the retreat of a glacier〉 〈the slow retreat of an epidemic〉
b (1): the usually forced withdrawal of troops from an enemy or from an advanced position
Merriam-Webster, I. (2003). In Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. (Eleventh ed.). Merriam-Webster, Inc.This is the only English dictionary I have in my Logos Library. I have the old CD-ROM version of the OED, but not currently installed. It has to run in a virtual machine and is kind of a hassle.
Anyway I think definition 1b fits here. although the Greek is clearly not as easy to define, especially for beginners like me.
Not sure how "bear or cougar" would fit.
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John said:
Not sure how "bear or cougar" would fit.
You would if you were putting your garbage out late at night and saw a bear crossing your front yard.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Sorry but aren't we using "modern cultural" terms to try to define "bible words"? That just doesn't fit... repentance is more than "retreat" or "about face" or "turn around". I has to start in the heart. If the heart does not change, what good is "turning around" or "retreating" or "about face"? One can keep turning around in circles if the heart does not change.
Repentance, as described earlier, is a "change of heart" shown in a "change of life". Isn't that what Jesus wants us to do? Change our hearts to believe, trust and follow Him, change our lives to show it. The proof is in the pudding .... so to speak.
And by replacing "repentance" with all these terms, "about face", "retreat", "turn around", aren't we really just watering down what Jesus meant by "repent or perish" - Luke 13:3? Not changing the heart or not changing your life is like a man that has one foot in the world and one foot in Christ and deludes himself that he is saved.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman,
The discussion moved away from repentance to another topic. The discussion on retreat isn’t related to repentance.
Bob
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Bob said:
xnman,
The discussion moved away from repentance to another topic. The discussion on retreat isn’t related to repentance.
Bob
Thanks Bob.... I didn't see the change. Sorry about that.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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DAL said:
Thought this thread was about repentance.... don't know when it changed. Some people don't like someone hijacking their thread... but .....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
Thought this thread was about repentance.
What did it get hijacked to? Tracing back, I see repentance vs military usage/behavior (for which retreating is indeed a major change in direction).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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It changed to a discussion on “fell back” Or retreat. As in the scene of Jesus being arrested.
bob
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Bob said:
It changed to a discussion on “fell back” Or retreat. As in the scene of Jesus being arrested.
bob
That looks more like a serious military about face. But not a repent.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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