Expermental Search and Abrahams children

So, I asked Expermental Search... How many children did Abraham conceive? to which I would expect one from Hagar, one from Sarah and 6 from Keturah. Instead, I get the "father of nations" type of answer. I agree Abraham is called "father of nations" but he didn't conceive that many.

I use the expermental search. I think it would help Logos a lot. But it might need some tweaking...???

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MJ. Smith

How many children did Abraham conceive?

Did it occur to you that a good AI might not answer the question knowing that the Biblical genealogies omit nearly all daughters? I don't think miscarriages or still-births get mentioned very often either. I am surprised at its answer - but pleasantly surprised.

JBR

How limiting should we expect the response(s) to be. I entered the following into the experimental search -- all variations of the query you entered. I also entered your query for comparison.

Number of direct descendants of Abraham
Number of sons of Abraham
Number of children that Abraham conceived

Yes, I saw the "father of nations" type responses with all of them, but I also saw responses that were closer to what you were expecting, particularly with the variations I submitted.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267474#Comment_1267474

Number of direct descendants of Abraham

I suspect there are areas on earth where nearly the entire current population are direct descendants of Abraham - my way of saying the question is not answerable.

Number of sons of Abraham

This one should be able to get a reasonable answer

I'm glad that our resources do not provide fake answers to such questions for the search to find the way the chat bots' AI does ... this emphasizes the fact that we are testing an AI assisted search that is still a search.

JBR

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267485#Comment_1267485

Number of direct descendants of Abraham

I suspect there are areas on earth where nearly the entire current population are direct descendants of Abraham - my way of saying the question is not answerable.

This becomes a case of definitions, much like the original query. Please note, I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion. Rather I was choosing different ways to state the question and trying to allow for the possibility that the search would be utilizing variant definitions in coming up with the results that it presented, and indeed it did.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267474#Comment_1267474

Number of direct descendants of Abraham

Number of sons of Abraham

Number of children that Abraham conceived

Yes, I saw the "father of nations" type responses with all of them

I got a much better response from David's Children than Abraham's children - he is definitely recognised as Father of nations.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267501#Comment_1267501

Rather I was choosing different ways to state the question and trying to allow for the possibility that the search would be utilizing variant definitions in coming up with the results that it presented, and indeed it did.

It was an excellent test case for beta testing - and it passed with flying colors.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267509#Comment_1267509

I thought my question "How many children did Abraham conceive?" was a good enough one. It was to the point. But just shows to go you that even with AI one still has to ask the "right" question.

Bob

Searching “list of Abraham’s sons” seems pretty good.

bob

Mike Binks

How many children did Abraham conceive?

Could men, in Abraham's time, conceive children other than in the idea of children?

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267546#Comment_1267546

ChatGPT popped this out to me:

Ishmael: Born to Abraham and Hagar, Sarah's maidservant.
Isaac: Born to Abraham and Sarah.
Zimran: Born to Abraham and Keturah.
Jokshan: Born to Abraham and Keturah.
Medan: Born to Abraham and Keturah.
Midian: Born to Abraham and Keturah. The Midianites were descendants of Midian.
Ishbak: Born to Abraham and Keturah.
Shuah: Born to Abraham and Keturah.

These are the children mentioned in the Bible as descendants of Abraham. They are considered ancestors of various peoples and nations in the ancient Middle East.

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267551#Comment_1267551

And here is Google Bard:

Question:

How many children did Abraham have? Please name them.

Abraham had 8 children in the Bible.

Ishmael, his first son with Hagar, his wife's Egyptian maidservant (Genesis 16:1-16).
Isaac, his second son with Sarah, his wife (Genesis 21:1-7).
Zimran, Joktan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah, his six sons with Keturah, his second wife (Genesis 25:1-4).

It is important to note that Isaac was the only son of Abraham and Sarah who was included in the Abrahamic covenant. This covenant was a promise from God that Abraham would be the father of many nations and that his descendants would inherit the land of Canaan. Ishmael was not included in this covenant because he was born to Abraham and Hagar, who was a slave.

The sons of Keturah were not included in the Abrahamic covenant either, but they were still considered to be Abraham's children. They became the fathers of many tribes that lived in Arabia.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267552#Comment_1267552

Note that both bots added the limitation "in Bible" which is necessary for there to be a reasonable answer to the question.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267546#Comment_1267546

How many children did Abraham conceive?

Could men, in Abraham's time, conceive children other than in the idea of children?

Wellll... I always thought that when a man conceived a child, he would be the father of that child and that would be different than the man being the "father of nations". But what do I know....

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267630#Comment_1267630

that would be different than the man being the "father of nations"

I had thought that like Charlemagne and Genghis Khan ... the phrase "father of nations" like "as numerous as the stars" meant more literally that the nations could trace their heritage back to Abraham. While the math is speculative, one needs go back only a few generations back to get forebearers exceeding the population of the earth, which for any particular geographic area starts raising the probability that people share a particular forebearer.

PS. My great-aunt traced my lineage back to Charlemagne and taught us it was no big deal since we had European blood. My paternal grandmother made a point that we were real Finns not Scandinavians or Slavs but real leftover Mongol hordes -- not that she was biased or anything.

JBR

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267630#Comment_1267630

I always thought that when a man conceived a child

That might be true for your very specific definition of the term but you have to remember that there is always a semantic range in which a word may be used.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267630#Comment_1267630

I always thought that when a man conceived a child, he would be the father of that child and that would be different than the man being the "father of nations".

I always thought that it is the mother who conceives (and bears) the child. The father plays a huge role, of course, providing the sperm that penetrates the egg in the process known as conception. But conception happens inside the woman's reproductive system, and typically we say that a woman conceived a child. We don't usually hear of a man conceiving a child. Fathering a child, yes; begetting a child, yes; but not conceiving.

Mike Binks

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267630#Comment_1267630

Wellll... I always thought that when a man conceived a child, he would be the father of that child and that would be different than the man being the "father of nations". But what do I know....

Well... I always understood that only a man could 'impregnate' and only a woman could 'conceive'. But I only got this from a dictionary.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267679#Comment_1267679

I always thought that when a man conceived a child, he would be the father of that child and that would be different than the man being the "father of nations".

I always thought that it is the mother who conceives (and bears) the child. The father plays a huge role, of course, providing the sperm that penetrates the egg in the process known as conception. But conception happens inside the woman's reproductive system, and typically we say that a woman conceived a child. We don't usually hear of a man conceiving a child. Fathering a child, yes; begetting a child, yes; but not conceiving.

xnman:

Wellll... I always thought that when a man conceived a child, he would be the father of that child and that would be different than the man being the "father of nations". But what do I know....

Well... I always understood that only a man could 'impregnate' and only a woman could 'conceive'. But I only got this from a dictionary.

tootle pip

Ok, Ok, I give! I do know the difference.... lol (as I slowly wipe the egg off my face...) I admit (as I humbly bow) that I used the wrong word.

Thanks!

P.S. I did try the line "children that abraham fathered" before, which again gives the "father of nations" answer....

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267641#Comment_1267641

that would be different than the man being the "father of nations"

I had thought that like Charlemagne and Genghis Khan ... the phrase "father of nations" like "as numerous as the stars" meant more literally that the nations could trace their heritage back to Abraham. While the math is speculative, one needs go back only a few generations back to get forebearers exceeding the population of the earth, which for any particular geographic area starts raising the probability that people share a particular forebearer.

PS. My great-aunt traced my lineage back to Charlemagne and taught us it was no big deal since we had European blood. My paternal grandmother made a point that we were real Finns not Scandinavians or Slavs but real leftover Mongol hordes -- not that she was biased or anything.

In the bible... as I understand it, Abraham would become the "father of all nations" because of his faith in God and all that had faith like
Abraham would be called sons of God. But it was not a literal genealogy from Abraham to people today, especially for the Gentiles, like me. It was because of "faith like Abraham" people had a "spiritual genealogy" to Abraham.

My personal genealogy goes back to Scottish descent. But in that line... it became so mixed up that now I am confused as to what blood line I am. I know there is some Choctaw Native American, some German, etc.Then only blood line that I really claim is the spiritual one.... which means I am a "spiritual" descendant of Abraham.

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267718#Comment_1267718

so mixed up

Did you do a DNA search? I never have.

People tell me one can get surprising results.

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267774#Comment_1267774

so mixed up

Did you do a DNA search? I never have.

People tell me one can get surprising results.

Interesting thought, but no, I never have.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267718#Comment_1267718

Then only blood line that I really claim is the spiritual one

Hmmm ... the standard estimate would be your family tree would have two to the 111th power for the generation that includes Abraham. While the estimates vary widely, about 30,000,000 to 60,000,000 is a reasonable range i.e., 2 to the 25th or 26th power. Now, consider the migration paths of people in those centuries . . . Of course, I will do a Bible search of the Old Testament on the phrase "spiritual descendent."

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267776#Comment_1267776

Then only blood line that I really claim is the spiritual one

Hmmm ... the standard estimate would be your family tree would have two to the 111th power for the generation that includes Abraham. While the estimates vary widely, about 30,000,000 to 60,000,000 is a reasonable range i.e., 2 to the 25th or 26th power. Now, consider the migration paths of people in those centuries . . . Of course, I will do a Bible search of the Old Testament on the phrase "spiritual descendent."

I'm agreeing..... and consider that secondary books were not kept and most were destroyed during the "battle of the nations" and that Abraham was before the flood of Gen 6, then I believe it would be hard to map out a true genealogy of myself. But I do agree that because of my faith... I am a "spiritual descendant" of Abraham. I'll offer two verses (and there are more) to show this: Gal 3:29 and Rom 4:16.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1267781#Comment_1267781

..... and consider that secondary books were not kept and most were destroyed during the "battle of the nations"

Which books? I don't understand.

and that Abraham was before the flood of Gen 6

Not in my book of Genesis.