Logos...can you please reduce the friction?
After years of "playing around" with Logos, in which I basically used it as a glorified concordance and dictionary, I finally plunged into the deep end about five years ago and became a "serious" Logos user. As a pastor who spends a significant amount of time reading, studying, preaching, and teaching, learning to utilize Logos has been an enormous blessing for me. And yet, it is a love-hate relationship.
In James Clear's book, Atomic Habits, he says, "Create an environment where doing the right thing is easiest. Reduce the friction associated with good behaviors. When friction is low habit is easy. Increase the friction associated with bad behaviors. When the friction is high habits are difficult. Prime your environment to make future actions easier."
When friction is high habits are difficult. Thus the reason that after five years of using Logos, I still prefer reading Kindle books. It is a given that e-ink display is far superior for sustained reading for hours at a time, and I'm not faulting Logos for not having an e-ink display. That is not my complaint. My complaint is that after all this time Logos has continued to make updates to the mobile app that don't address the primary purpose that most people are using the mobile app, which is simply to read.
When I want to do heavy lifting in Logos, I use my desktop. When I want to read a couple of hundred pages, I want to do so sitting in a chair or airplane on my iPad. Quickly accessing highlights is non-existent. Highlighting more often than not fails to show up, forcing me to close the app and restart it just to see the highlight I just made. All of this causes a friction that makes me not want to do it.
Using the Kindle app is frictionless. It just works. I posted about the inability to easily access highlights in the Logos 8 mobile app forum. It was acknowledged that it was a feature that didn't exist. In the Logos 9 mobile app forum someone raised the issue again. Now we are at Logos 10. It's almost as if no one in the mobile app department has ever used the Kindle app or is unaware of how simple and frictionless it is to use. Read a book, highlight a passage, quickly add a note, quickly tap one button and scroll through every single highlight and note in order (seeing the entire highlight and note), quickly tap the screen and return to page, tap a button at the bottom and quickly scroll through the book while not losing your place...this is the frictionless experience of the Kindle app.
If there is anyone monitoring this at Logos, could you please speak to whether or not the reading experience of Logos books (not sitting at a desk on a computer) but on the go (in elders meetings, small groups, bible studies, etc.) will ever be refined? Will there ever come a day that reading a Logos book will feel frictionless? If this is something Logos is just not interested in doing, that's fine as completely understand that every organization has to have priorities. Having gone from Logos 8 to now 10 with the answer always being, "use the web app on your iPad," I'm just beginning to think that the people that make the mobile app are people who are unaware of the friction that exists when compared to the frictionless experience of the Kindle app.
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Amen Mark. The Mobile app should be used for reading and possibly note taking. I know when I am in appointments I like to read my books and take minor notes. I have been here since Logos 7. I have never used a Kindle but I had a Nook GlowLight device in 2015 and I loved it and the feel of a book while reading. It lasted until 2020 and it was just defunct. I like your reference to Clear's book Atomic Habits as I have read it numerous times. I agree with you on how the mobile app causes too much friction and excoriation as it does with a less sensible habit of reading while on the go. That is what e-readers are for. There is a delay in turning pages. Maps are blurry. The app frequently locks up and will not load books. These are all reasons to not read on mobile devices. Thanks again Mark. I hope we get some correspondence here on this forum.
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Very well stated, Mark. And on point.
To say one part of it a different way, why is it so easy to accidentally highlight text when that is not wanted but so difficult to delete the highlight?
I appreciate the improvements that have been made, but I agree the main reason to use the mobile app is not being tended to as it should.
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I should add that I have absolutely no problem with Logos simply saying, "Hey, that's not our focus and we are not interested in creating a reading experience that is as frictionless as using the Kindle app. We have no plans to make it so that you can easily access your highlights on the mobile app in the way you can on the Kindle app. Our system is complex and we either cannot or are unwilling to simplify and improve the reader experience."
If that's the case, I'm good with that from the standpoint of understanding that there will always be organizational priorities and you can't do it all. My complaint is simply that this issue has been raised for multiple generations of the mobile app and at one point Logos asked for feedback and indicated an understanding and an intention to address the features that its customers most want. However, as time goes on, it seems as if the features that are released are ones that have added more complexity but have done nothing to make the app more useful in the areas that would reduce complexity and make it more usable.
Between Logos 7-10, that is quite a number of years and quite A LOT of money that I've invested in the hopes that these things would be addressed. If they are never going to be, I just want to know so that I can stop being frustrated and just accept that I will have to buy most things that I want to read on Kindle and only buy things on Logos that I need to use like dictionaries, lexicons, etc. I will hate the discontinuity and the lack of integration in my life, but I'll hate even more that I could have given thousands of dollars to Logos instead of Amazon.
I guess what I'm saying is, Dear Logos, pastors who read a lot and are blessed with substantial book allowances at their churches REALLY do want to give you their money...and they really want to reduce friction in their already busy schedules by making their hours of reading an enjoyable experience. Please help a brother out and let me give you my money instead of Amazon 😉
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I appreciate what you said.
I initially wanted to inwardly protest and claim to myself that I use my phone to do all the Logos things. But if I'm honest with myself, the device's small size and awkward input mechanics (a natural consequence of it being a phone) make this impossible. Reviewing my study habits, whenever I want to do a research project or some deep study, I bracket time off so I can go to my PC. I eventually have to surrender to your statement that, "Logos has continued to make updates to the mobile app that don't address the primary purpose that most people are using the mobile app, which is simply to read."
On the other side of the coin, I cannot imagine how challenging it is to attempt to create platform parity with something as complex and Logos with vastly different user experiences dictated by the respective platforms. On some level, maybe parity is neither realistic nor worth the effort.
Adding to this mix is the market reality that new features, things that always carry additional complexity and UX challenges, are often what drives the market forward, and it hurts my brain when I think about Logos' management of all these conflicting priorities.
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Well said. I enjoy not only reading but the 'reading experience' that the desktop cannot recreate.
It's nice to keep many of the features and complexity that mobile has for those who cannot afford a desktop, but it would be nice to have a 'Logos Lite' version that strips everything away save for reading, highlighting, and note taking.
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I agree.Mark A Moore said:Using the Kindle app is frictionless. It just works.
It's all about the book. Not to mention you can get an instant definition of a word you may be unfamiliar with.Mark A Moore said:Read a book, highlight a passage, quickly add a note, quickly tap one button and scroll through every single highlight and note in order (seeing the entire highlight and note), quickly tap the screen and return to page, tap a button at the bottom and quickly scroll through the book while not losing your place...this is the frictionless experience of the Kindle app.
Is it possible for Logos to approach this facility. I think so. I hope Mark Barnes comes across this thread of yours.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
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I agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread.
No doubt, the Kindle reading experiencing is frictionless... highlighting, note-taking, scrolling, dictionary look-up, seeing your place in the whole book...
One annoyance with Kindle for me is copying text. It always pastes the reference citation and there's no way to turn that off.
It's always impossible to search for book content in your entire library. You can only search for a word or two in book names. Logos allows you to search your library based on metadata other than book names (author names, description text, tags, etc).
The "friction" in the Logos mobile app, however, comes in the mundane reading and highlighting experience, namely:
1. Highlight sometimes doesn't appear, or appear after a delay;
2. Touching anywhere on the screen will auto-highlight (new behavior in Logos 10, and no option to turn that behavior off despite numerous complaints and suggestions);
3. Hard to get a sense or overview of the whole book or current section (lacking Kindle's bird's eye view of all the pages);
4. Hard to see all your highlights and notes in the book.
Please improve these basic behaviors, thanks!
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Mark A Moore said:
Will there ever come a day that reading a Logos book will feel frictionless? If this is something Logos is just not interested in doing, that's fine as completely understand that every organization has to have priorities.
In a way, I agree with you. However, I think part of the problem is the tension between making the app do what it is best suited to do (simply read books) and what some other users want (every feature of the desktop app).
It would be much easier to design the mobile app to do the most simple things... but Logos users want more... even if they don't always agree on what the "more" is.
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PL said:
The "friction" in the Logos mobile app, however, comes in the mundane reading and highlighting experience, namely:
1. Highlight sometimes doesn't appear, or appear after a delay;
2. Touching anywhere on the screen will auto-highlight (new behavior in Logos 10, and no option to turn that behavior off despite numerous complaints and suggestions);
3. Hard to get a sense or overview of the whole book or current section (lacking Kindle's bird's eye view of all the pages);
4. Hard to see all your highlights and notes in the book.
This is exactly my point.
I find it interesting that over the last several years there has been a recognition on the part of Bible publishers that there is a need for "reader's bibles" (single column, no clutter, etc.). It's an acknowledgment that sustained long-form reading is different than studying, and therefore a reader's bible focuses on making the experience of reading the bible more like reading a normal book. I bring that up to say, apart from dictionaries, lexicons, commentaries, etc., most pastors and professors actually read books cover to cover and therefore the reading experience itself is actually extremely important. Reading Matthew from start to finish in one sitting is much different from studying paragraphs and sections of it over a period of time. My argument is that while I value everything that Logos books can do, sometimes I just don't want to do them or even need to do them. Reading a 300-500 page book sometimes just means reading and not pausing to click on every link and tag just as one would read a physical book without pausing every three sentences to look up every reference in parentheses.
I didn't mention this earlier, but if someone were wanting to try reading a digital book rather than a physical book for the first time, I would never recommend they try Logos or Faithlife Book over Kindle because it would substantiate all their fears about how different the reading experience is. On the flip side, I've rarely ever met someone who bought a Kindle Paperwhite or just used the app, who didn't say, "Wow! I've read more in the last two months than ever before." Why? Because it is a frictionless experience. I'm currently reading a 700 page book and I knew before I bought it that I would buy on Kindle and if it was something that I really wanted to go back to for future reference I'd just bite the bullet and buy it a second time on Logos. But I knew beforehand that if I bought it and started it on the Logos app on my iPad I would more than likely quit before finishing it.
I LOVE Logos for the power it brings. I'm just lobbying for Logos to remember that people who read actually want to read for the sheer pleasure of reading...and Logos sells books to readers.
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I read using both the Logos app and the Kindle app. I agree that there are differences, much like driving cars made by two different auto makers. I might have a preference for one but both serve the same essential purpose. Is highlighting and taking notes with the Kindle app easier than with the Logos app? Maybe, but, at least for me, it's more about it being a little different.
PL said:2. Touching anywhere on the screen will auto-highlight (new behavior in Logos 10, and no option to turn that behavior off despite numerous complaints and suggestions);
On this point I have to disagree! Touching anywhere on the screen does not auto-highlight in Logos 10. Instead what if does is to select a portion of text, usually a sentence and bring up a card that provides some options to highlight the selected text with a particular highlight style or to take a note related to the selected text or several other options. If you don't want to do any of those things you can simply tap somewhere outside the card and the card will disappear as will the selection indicator. No highlight has been recorded; no note has been taken if that is what you do. If, while the selection is made, you want to change the selection to make it either smaller (fewer words) or larger (more words or sentences) you can do so by grabbing one of the handles that are at the beginning and end of the selection and dragging them as appropriate to make the desired selection and then proceed with selecting the highlighting style or taking the note.
For God and For Neighbor
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I read using both the Logos app and the Kindle app. I agree that there are differences, much like driving cars made by two different auto makers. I might have a preference for one but both serve the same essential purpose. Is highlighting and taking notes with the Kindle app easier than with the Logos app? Maybe, but, at least for me, it's more about it being a little different.
PL said:2. Touching anywhere on the screen will auto-highlight (new behavior in Logos 10, and no option to turn that behavior off despite numerous complaints and suggestions);
On this point I have to disagree! Touching anywhere on the screen does not auto-highlight in Logos 10. Instead what if does is to select a portion of text, usually a sentence and bring up a card that provides some options to highlight the selected text with a particular highlight style or to take a note related to the selected text or several other options. If you don't want to do any of those things you can simply tap somewhere outside the card and the card will disappear as will the selection indicator. No highlight has been recorded; no note has been taken if that is what you do. If, while the selection is made, you want to change the selection to make it either smaller (fewer words) or larger (more words or sentences) you can do so by grabbing one of the handles that are at the beginning and end of the selection and dragging them as appropriate to make the desired selection and then proceed with selecting the highlighting style or taking the note.
For God and For Neighbor
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Mark A Moore said:
I LOVE Logos for the power it brings. I'm just lobbying for Logos to remember that people who read actually want to read for the sheer pleasure of reading...and Logos sells books to readers.
Well said brother
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JT -- I agree that the tension is exactly that... catering to the readers vs. catering to those who use their iPad (in particular, perhaps other tablets too) as a laptop. Remember that iPads run the mobile app, and as they get more and more powerful and capable, users would want all the desktop app features available on that platform.
Mark -- Brother, I kept saying "Amen" to every word you wrote! Although I do have to say, one key difference between Kindle and Logos apps is that only Logos can display Bible text for you when you hover over a reference. If Kindle can somehow do that, there would be honestly much less incentive for me to purchase books on the Logos platform. (Kindle books are also often less pricey.)
JBR -- Sorry I misspoke. I meant to say "auto-select" rather than "auto-highlight." I know some users like the new auto-select function. No problem. Some of us really dislike having to dismiss those "cards" every time we accidentally touch the screen somewhere. Please give us an option to turn that off. PLEASE!
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Logos should make their own "kindle like" e-ink device specifically for readers. I would buy one.
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I use my phone an hour a day to read the Bible while walking to the train station (I've fallen multiple times when I go for a run so another potential fall doesn’t scare me [:)] and standing in the train. I do the following all the time as I read: (i) Highlight, (ii) take Notes using my thumb (turn on “Slide to Type” feature in iPhone) and (iii) apply Tags. I have to say that I don't share the following experience that others have experienced. (i) “Highlighting more often than not fails to show up, forcing me to close the app” – I don’t have this problem after the recent software fix. (ii) “Touching anywhere on the screen will auto-highlight”. I think if you have “Smart Text Selection” turned on in the Settings, it will select (but not Highlight) a portion of the text. I actually like it a lot because it selects the whole verse and I usually take Notes at the verse. If I want to take Notes at the Word level, I tap the word it twice. I find this super helpful. Logos also gives me Word info if I just need to take a quick glance. (iii) I also like to turn on “Swipe to Highlight” in Settings, which makes it easy to Highlight.
Given my liking for Tags, I would like to see what tags are attached to my Notes when I enter the Notes (like in Desktop). Wit iPhone, you have to hit the 3 vertical dots and then “Edit tags” to see previously applied tags. Others who don’t use tags as extensively as I do may not care for this, and I understand. Each has their own needs.
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JT (alabama24) said:
(others have made this suggestion but it isn’t really an option)
I cannot think of any reason why it would not be possible technologically and economically viable.
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John said:JT (alabama24) said:
(others have made this suggestion but it isn’t really an option)
I cannot think of any reason why it would not be possible technologically and economically viable.
Then do it yourself and get rich!
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John said:
I cannot think of any reason why it would not be possible technologically and economically viable.
You're dreaming.
For a limited market like Logos? This is not Amazon, with 400,000 books available on the Kindle day one. There is limited inventory and customer potential compared to a general vendor like Amazon.
In the early 2000's it took Amazon 4 years to develop the first Kindle. Technology is a number of orders of magnitude more complex today. Even if they farmed the whole reader design and development out, it will still cost well into 9 figures- you not only have the ONE device Amazon built with a large team over 4 years, you have the backend infrastructure to build as well. What about logistics, maintenance/support? What about 12-18 months later when the technology needs an upgrade, else how many new customers would buy an iPad from 8 years ago?...... the book Working Backwards covers a lot of the Kindle history of you are interested.
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JT (alabama24) said:
Then do it yourself and get rich!
Somehow I doubt that Logos is going to allow me to develop and sell a device that downloads and displays their books.
My suggestion is that Logos do it. Its a no-brainer for Logos to do this.
They could become the new Amazon for Christian related e-books.
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Don Awalt said:
For a limited market like Logos? This is not Amazon, with 400,000 books available on the Kindle day one. There is limited inventory and customer potential compared to a general vendor like Amazon.
That same argument could have been made against iOS or Android versions of the Logos mobile software. And if Logos did it right, they could make their device capable of running the Amazon Kindle for android app. That would add 400,000 books to the available books list.
Don Awalt said:In the early 2000's it took Amazon 4 years to develop the first Kindle.
Logos would not have to develop the technology. The hardware already exists and can be purchased off the shelf.
Don Awalt said:you not only have the ONE device Amazon built with a large team over 4 years, you have the backend infrastructure to build as well. What about logistics, maintenance/support?
Logos already has all of that. The E-ink devices amazon uses in the Kindle run a stripped down version of Linux. Logos already has an Android app. Android is a stripped down version of Linux. I have read somewhere that there are people who have run the Android version of Logos on an E-Ink device they purchased that ran Android. The major problems has to do with the lack of colors on the Display, as the Logos app is designed to be run on a color display.
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Its a no-brainer for Logos not to do this.
FIFY.
It would put them out of business.
- Logos doesn't make hardware.
- Not many companies can make eInk devices, and much fewer turn a profit.
- The companies that due turn a profit, sell their devices for $$$
- A small niche of Logos customers would possibly pay $$$ for a device as you describe.
- A larger group of Logos customers would call Logos greedy for selling the device for more than $ (which would be below cost to make).
If your goal is to have Logos books on an eInk device, you have two choices:
- Fork out the $$$ for one of the better Android eInk devices and use the mobile app.
- Fork out $$ for a lesser Android eInk device, which won't be able to run the Logos app but for a couple years since it is old tech.
- Convert your Logos books to a format readable by another cheaper eInk device.
If I were wanting to read a book cover to cover on an eInk device, I'd try to remember the steps to converting it and sending it to my Kindle Paperwhite.
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JT (alabama24) said:
- Logos doesn't make hardware.
- Not many companies can make eInk devices, and much fewer turn a profit.
- The companies that due turn a profit, sell their devices for $$$
- A small niche of Logos customers would possibly pay $$$ for a device as you describe.
- A larger group of Logos customers would call Logos greedy for selling the device for more than $ (which would be below cost to make).
I sure hope the marketing people at Logos are a little more optimistic than this. This reminds me of the guy who used to own Bibleworks. He was an eternal pessimist and always had real good reasons why it was not feasible to adapt the software to this or that platform. They did end up running it on MAC but only by using an emulator. Bibleworks is dead now.
As I said in a previous post, Logos would not have to "make hardware".
Other companies that make and/or sell a generic android hardware device are irrelevant. Your comparison is Apples to Oranges. Logos would not just be selling an electronic device. Just as Logos is not "selling" just Windows or macOS software. Who would buy Logos if it did not come with a huge selection of available library titles? Logos is selling electronic resources, mostly books. That is where the money comes from. There was no direct return on investment when Logos developed software for different platforms. How could there be? They give it away free. Does Amazon make a huge profit selling Kindles? Or is it the books for the Kindle where they make their money?
As far as some customers calling Logos greedy, Look around ... They already do [;)]
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John said:
I have read somewhere that there are people who have run the Android version of Logos on an E-Ink device they purchased that ran Android. The major problems has to do with the lack of colors on the Display, as the Logos app is designed to be run on a color display.
Precisely because I am already running Logos Mobile plus Kindle plus other apps on a single (Onyx Boox) E-ink device I would never buy a dedicated Logos device. I would end up with several devices. And there are already E-ink devices capable of showing colors on the display.
So..no, I would not advice Logos to develop a reader device like Kindle..
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Luuk Dondorp said:
I am already running Logos Mobile plus Kindle plus other apps on a single (Onyx Boox) E-ink device
How does it work for you? Is it usable?
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I started this conversation in the hopes that someone from Logos might respond to my hope that Logos could simply make the reading experience and the ability to access highlights both easier and better in the mobile app. I’m not asking for Logos to make a dedicated e-reader ESPECIALLY if it meant the reading experience and the ability to access highlights on it was the same as it currently is on the mobile app. This isn’t about eyestrain, it is about usability on an iPad or iPhone.
Below is a picture of what happens when I try to access highlights from a book I’m reading on a mobile device. I must exit the book. Open the notes app and then look at this completely worthless page. It truly is worthless. Try sitting in a small group or an elders meeting discussing a book and wanting to quickly access highlights. The system is cumbersome and worthless.
Below is a picture of what happens when I access highlights in the Kindle app on my ipad. I click one button in the top right corner and my highlights and notes instantly appear on the side without me ever leaving the page I’m currently on in the book I’m reading and I can scroll through every highlight in the book and create or edit notes within those highlights, all while never leaving the book or page I’m on. This is extremely useful and it is not cumbersome and I can teach anyone to do it in a matter of seconds (actually they can figure it out for themselves). In contrast, when I first tried to figure out how to do the same thing on Logos I came to this forum, searched YouTube, and searched the whole Morris Proctor library…only to discover that it couldn’t be done. This is what I mean by cumbersome and worthless.
I hope that someone from Logos will respond to this. Again, I love Logos and don’t want to keep giving Amazon my money, and don’t want Logos to spend time and money creating a device. I just want to be able to sit in a meeting, open a book in the app on my ipad, and instantly access my highlights that I’ve created while thoroughly enjoying reading Logos books in the Logos mobile app.
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You mean like this?
I'llFor God and For Neighbor
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One has to do a fair bit of digging to find out what the best e-ink device is for Logos. I am toying with the idea of buying one, but it is not straight forward.
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For clarification: You don't have to exit the book (the highlights are already in the book, readily available), but you want a "highlights only" view as you showed in Kindle. Is that right?Mark A Moore said:Below is a picture of what happens when I try to access highlights from a book I’m reading on a mobile device. I must exit the book. Open the notes app and then look at this completely worthless page. It truly is worthless.
That is a clear enough request.
You are right about that other view!0 -
Mark A Moore,
I'm so sorry that you're having a hardship getting Logos to work with highlights as you need. I do not know if this will be helpful, but here is a screenshot of how I have set up a study for small groups with the use of a particular commentary. Instead of using highlights for notes, I use a red star to show the location of the notes. I also use a 3-panel layout that includes the Bible version, commentary used, and the notes section. When I click on one of the stars, the note for that star will pop up on the screen. If I click on Edit note, it will open in the notes panel. For my needs, this is much more functional than what kindle offers.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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