Theology/Denomination Tags
Comments
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David Wanat said:
Is it currently possible to do searches within denominations?
Assuming you mean searches within content annotated for a denomination (typically the denomination of the author) ...
I missed one: some resources have a "subject reference" (Factbook) categorization indicating their denomination, which you can find on the left sidebar in Library > Factbook (like https://ref.ly/logos4/Library?SelectedFacetTermsEscaped=LibraryGroup_SubjectReferences_BeliefSystem%7cBelief%2520System%7cLibraryTermSubjectReference_bk.%2525Anglicanism_Belief%257CAnglicanism). I believe you could make a Collection for those resources with a given subject reference tag, and then search within that collection. That's not quite the same as what you're asking for, since you have to manage this yourself, but perhaps it's a reasonable workaround depending on your use case.
We have no denomination annotation of content within a resource, and no plans to do so anytime soon as far as I know.
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I started the Theology/Denominations Tags project to show what could be done, in the hope that Logos would take it on. Some years later, Logos have taken it on. Here are some thoughts on the progress they have made with it so far.
What Is Working Well
Fullness: The Logos Factbook entries go beyond the initial project in some ways. The data/information about people stretches to bibliographies, links to works by and about the people, and is broken down in helpful ways (media, sermons, etc.)
Information on J I Packer is great, with instantly available pictures of him at different stages of life. Similarly, there is a wealth of information on George Abbot, a former Archbishop of Canterbury, with linked dictionary entries, although he isn’t categorised as Anglican, never mind Church of England, despite being listed as an Archbishop of Canterbury. Clearly, the entry has seen some focus, as it gives his dates of birth and death, going beyond the dictionary entries, which give only his year of birth and year of death.
Denomination: There was initially a reluctance to add much granularity. My project tried to capture Stream (e.g., Anglican) and Denomination (e.g., Church of England). It looks like this is now available for many people. Thanks, Logos.
Subject vs Belief System: There was a question regarding whether I should have categorised resources about the Church of England under Church of England. I suggested that this was a different category from resources coming from Church of England authors. It is great to see that Logos reflects that difference, with “Subject: Church of England” quite different from “Belief System: Church of England”.
What Isn’t Working So Well
Country Missing: It would have been great if place could have featured for people. For some people, this may require multiple entries, as people move, but most people have at least a Main Country, as in my initial project spreadsheet.
Data Hard to Find: While it is easy to find authors from the Anglican Church of Kenya. (There’s only one: John Mbiti – type “Anglican” in the factbook filter text box, click on “Anglican Church of Kenya”.) It is harder to find authors from the Church of England, as there are so many. (There is no category under People, so type “England”, click on Church of England”.) It seems you have to click “More” many times before you can see Gordon J Wenham, for example, under Authors on the Church of England page.
Levels: Authors listed under Anglicanism only includes authors without any further granularity. Hence, it does not include John Mbiti or the hundreds of authors in the Church of England, despite them being Anglican.
Data Issues
Clearly the data is incomplete and questionable in places, presumably having been automatically generated. For example:
Douglas A – from Foster, G.H.& D.A. (2015) Renewing the world. Abilene, TX: Leafwood Publishers.
His name is Douglas A Foster, rather than Douglas A. The citation is misleading, as the book is by Gary Holloway and Douglas A Foster. The information page shows that it is by Foster Holloway, Gary Holloway and Douglas A. What chance did the automatic process have with that kind of data accuracy?
Cohen A – curiously this person (?) has no associated media, works or anything else, and is simply listed as a person, neither male nor female, and with no other bibliographic information. It’s hard to trace how this “person” was created.
Lin Aaron – co-wrote Afghanistan at transition: the lessons of the longest war, which is available from https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/75423/afghanistan-at-transition-the-lessons-of-the-longest-war Clearly, the entries are not limited to theology, biblical studies or religion.
“London, England”, Wales and Scotland are in the Factbook filter list, but not England, and there are more entries for London, Wales and Scotland added together than there are for Great Britain – another granularity issue?
In the library, if I filter on Belief System: Lutheranism, I don’t even get all of Luther’s Works, never mind many of the other Lutheran authors in my library.
It is unclear why “Assembly at Glasgow” comes under “Subject: Church of England”. Glasgow is not in England, there is no mention of the Church of England in the resource and the reference to “General and Synodical Assemblies, Presbyteries, and Sessions” in the resource points to the non-Anglican, but Presbyterian, system it relates to, within the Church of Scotland.
These are only a few illustrative cases of the many problems caused by poor data.
Requests
Resource information: In the Library, clicking a resource allowed the Stream and Denomination to be seen in the initial project, as it also did in the Information screen for each resource. This was really helpful. It would be even better if Logos displayed the header data for each author on the information screen. For example, for Warren W Wiersbe books, it could display “May 16, 1929 - . Baptist, Author, Man, Pastor, Teacher. 1929 –“, as per his Factbook entry. This would be really helpful.
Searches Using Factbook Entries: Can Belief System and other Factbook categories (e.g., Person: Bishop, Person: Abolitionist, Places: London) be used for searches? If not, can these be added?
Composite Filters/Searches: The project spreadsheet enabled a (relatively) quick search to be done for resources by Lutheran women, or Baptists born between 1800 and 1900. I’m not sure how these kinds of composite searches can be done with the current Factbook, or elsewhere in Logos. Could this be made possible?
With these three facilities and a great deal of work on the data, the initial project could probably be safely retired, although it would still be good if Logos displayed the data more transparently, so that searching, sorting and gaining an overview of the data were easier.
Verdict
Getting Better, Still Some Way to Go
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Thanks Andrew for kickstarting this project, and for these helpful comments. Some selective responses:
- "Country missing": this doesn't current fit our data schema, but longer term I hope we'll add it.
- "Data hard to find": Factbook doesn't have the kind of general query mechanism that would support queries like "show authors associated with the Anglican church" (walking down into the various denominations associated with this tradition), and some of those results might be lengthy enough that simply displaying them would be a poor experience.
- I agree that it should be easier to get information about authors from the Library Panel: I'll pass that suggestion along to Mark Barnes, our product manager.
- We have plans to improve Factbook's data on roles like Bishop, Abolitionist etc.: stay tuned.
- We're doing ongoing work to improve the quality of Person records: we know there's both a lot of missing and incorrect information. We now have well over 100k authors in our dataset, so it's a massive task.
Overall, the best way to improve the data for now is to report errors you find. There's been a lot of helpful feedback in this thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/195544/1202561.aspx. You can also email data@faithlife.com.
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Sean Boisen said:
Thanks Andrew for kickstarting this project, and for these helpful comments. Some selective responses:
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Thanks, Sean. Very helpful.
One of the most limiting issues is that filters are only positive: Resources with this attribute
I don't suppose it would be possible to include negative filters: Resources without this attribute (e.g., Anglican but not Church of England, or just NOT Subjects:Fiction)
This would be incredibly useful on the website, as well as in Logos.
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Andrew Baguley said:
One of the most limiting issues is that filters are only positive: Resources with this attribute
I don't suppose it would be possible to include negative filters: Resources without this attribute (e.g., Anglican but not Church of England, or just NOT Subjects:Fiction)
This would be incredibly useful on the website, as well as in Logos.
The ANDNOT operator works in the Search and Library panels. You can put a * in front of ANDNOT in order to functionally create an initial NOT.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:
The ANDNOT operator works in the Search and Library panels. You can put a * in front of ANDNOT in order to functionally create an initial NOT.
Thanks, SineNomine. That appears to work well. It would be great if the graphical interface supported it as well (a tick or a cross next to each option in the filter?), but I can live with the text version.
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Andrew Baguley said:
Composite Filters/Searches: The project spreadsheet enabled a (relatively) quick search to be done for resources by Lutheran women, or Baptists born between 1800 and 1900. I’m not sure how these kinds of composite searches can be done with the current Factbook, or elsewhere in Logos. Could this be made possible?
There would be a lot of benefit in being able to search Factbook by property or category - not just for the data in this project, but also to allow searches for things like "All the mountains in Judah", and "All the women from Galilee". It's fairly difficult to pull off simply, - but it's definitely under consideration.
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Since Logos took on this data, I stopped updating the Denominations and Theology spreadsheet, but I’ve incorporated data from this project in another project, Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance (feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance), so that the influence of denomination, theology, country, etc can be seen in Bible Interpretation Choices.In doing so, I updated some entries and added nearly two hundred more, taking the total to well over 7000, so I thought I’d publish the updated spreadsheet here in case anyone finds it useful, especially as this project had over 1200 users at one point.
Here’s the 2023 version of the spreadsheet: Denominations and Theology 2023.xlsm
(Edit: For some reason this file is uploading as a .docx file, rather that the .xlsm file that it really is, so you may need to remove the final .docx from the file name to open it. Thanks, Mattillo, for pointing this out.)
If you haven’t voted for the Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance idea, you can do so at the link above, or find out more at: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/208162.aspx
Thanks.
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I hope in final analysis that a category of "Church of Christ" will be considered. Church of Christ is not a "Calvinistic Theology" nor of "Catholic persuasion" nor of "Reformed theology" like many suppose. And I do know of others (Church of Christ) besides myself that are on Logos. I know of schools of preaching that use Logos in their teaching of preachers and such.
It would be nice to see a category of "Church of Christ" in the listings as such.... [8-|]
It can be confusing to study from books promoting other doctrines... and I appreciate all the groups having books that support their theology and doctrines.... I just find "Church of Christ" being expected to study those theologies and doctrines as there are very, very, few resources from writers of the Church of Christ theologies and doctrines.
Please consider this.....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Thanks, xnman. I'm not sure whether this is a request for me or for Logos, but the problem has always been defining "Church of Christ". As can be seen from the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Christ), it can refer to a number of different groups.
Within the spreadsheet, which provides rules for creating collections, you can find "Churches of Christ" (e.g. Michael Whitworth), "Churches of Christ in Christian Union" (e.g. David Case) and "Christian churches and churches of Christ" (e.g. Barry L. Davis). If none of these is what you are looking for, then you may need to be more specific, and it may help to mention authors available in Logos, as this has been the guide for the spreadsheet.
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Andrew Baguley said:
Since Logos took on this data, I stopped updating the Denominations and Theology spreadsheet, but I’ve incorporated data from this project in another project, Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance (feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance), so that the influence of denomination, theology, country, etc can be seen in Bible Interpretation Choices.In doing so, I updated some entries and added nearly two hundred more, taking the total to well over 7000, so I thought I’d publish the updated spreadsheet here in case anyone finds it useful, especially as this project had over 1200 users at one point.
Here’s the 2023 version of the spreadsheet: Denominations and Theology 2023.xlsm
If you haven’t voted for the Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance idea, you can do so at the link above, or find out more at: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/208162.aspx
Thanks.
In case anyone else had this issue... when I downloaded the new file it was a .xlsm.docx. Word refused to open it so I had to remove the docx to open in excel
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Thanks, Mattillo.
I've tried to re-upload it, but it still thinks it's a Word document for some reason. I'll happily fix it if anyone has any idea how.
It failed to upload as an attachment (I suspect it's too big), so I used the Insert Image from Amber option, if that's any help.
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Hi, maybe you simply try to rename the file type to .xlsm instaed of .xlsm.docx
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I believe you can upload compressed or .zip files. I feel like I’ve seen those before but maybe I’m losing my mind.
no worries either way just a note for those who download it and don’t think to remove the .docx before opening
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Andrew, for "Church of Christ" AND/OR "Christian Church (Not Disciples), I would suggest the various publishers, such as "Standard Publishing", "College Press", "Abilene Publishing," or whatever the actual publisher name is. I would also think that a polling of the people for our "three main" branches for a listing of some of our favorite authors are, i.e., Alexander Campbell, Max Lucado, Bob Russell, Jack Cottrell, etc., and that should help "define" the Restoration Movement. Personally, I would love to see Alexander Campbells, "Millennial Harbinger" in Logos, I have a set in print format and his "The Christian Baptist."
We already have several from Standard Publishing, but there are so many more that aren't included, yet!
We already have several from College Press (CP), but there is always room for more. One such collection that CP has in print that I would love to see in Logos is "What the Bible Says about:..." They are a collection of commentaries on a particular subject/topic rather than a commentary on a particular Bible reference. Another set that has been asked for previously from CP is "The Bible Study Textbook Series." At one time it was in Pre-Pub (and it still may be, but I haven't checked in a very long time...here's to hoping that with these suggestions and the "polling" of our group, you may find a veritable treasure trove of our "non"- denominational, denomination! [:D]0 -
Sorry, wrong forum entry, ignore.
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Bill Shewmaker said:
Andrew, for "Church of Christ" AND/OR "Christian Church (Not Disciples), I would suggest the various publishers, such as "Standard Publishing", "College Press", "Abilene Publishing," or whatever the actual publisher name is. I would also think that a polling of the people for our "three main" branches for a listing of some of our favorite authors are, i.e., Alexander Campbell, Max Lucado, Bob Russell, Jack Cottrell, etc., and that should help "define" the Restoration Movement. Personally, I would love to see Alexander Campbells, "Millennial Harbinger" in Logos, I have a set in print format and his "The Christian Baptist."...
Thanks, Bill, but from what you have written, it seems that there are already Church of Christ authors in the spreadsheet (about nine posts above this one - first March 2023 post). This seems really to be a request to add more books to Logos from that tradition, rather than to include the tradition in this project.
If you were able to look at the authors listed under Restoration movement in the spreadsheet and let me know which branch they should be listed under, rather than leaving them as simply Restoration Movement, I would happily add this data and thus improve the spreadsheet.
Thanks again.
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Andrew Baguley said:
Thanks, xnman. I'm not sure whether this is a request for me or for Logos, but the problem has always been defining "Church of Christ". As can be seen from the Wikipedia page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Christ), it can refer to a number of different groups.
Within the spreadsheet, which provides rules for creating collections, you can find "Churches of Christ" (e.g. Michael Whitworth), "Churches of Christ in Christian Union" (e.g. David Case) and "Christian churches and churches of Christ" (e.g. Barry L. Davis). If none of these is what you are looking for, then you may need to be more specific, and it may help to mention authors available in Logos, as this has been the guide for the spreadsheet.
Given the many different teaches of the Baptist church... is it hard to define Baptist? Same with Catholics?
And yet Church of Christ is specifically left out... Interesting.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
And yet Church of Christ is specifically left out.
As are Hussites, Quakers, Armenian Apostolic, Jehovah's Witnesses . . .
I agree that the Church of Christ as a composite of its various threads does deserve to have its own base package but that does require that those within the group be willing to purchase resources from all the related publishers. Otherwise, there is an insufficient market I suspect. Keep on pushing for it as it is one of several missing pieces.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:xnman said:
And yet Church of Christ is specifically left out.
As are Hussites, Quakers, Armenian Apostolic, Jehovah's Witnesses . . .
I agree that the Church of Christ as a composite of its various threads does deserve to have its own base package but that does require that those within the group be willing to purchase resources from all the related publishers. Otherwise, there is an insufficient market I suspect. Keep on pushing for it as it is one of several missing pieces.
Thanks MJ. And most definitely no market if there is nothing to buy..... [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
Given the many different teaches of the Baptist church... is it hard to define Baptist? Same with Catholics?
Defining "Catholics" for the purpose of creating and then selling them Verbum packages is actually very easy. If in communion with Pope Francis (which is a juridically verifiable fact), then Catholic. (If also members of the relevant Ordinariates, then "Ordinariate Catholic". If instead members of any of the 20+ churches in communion with Pope Francis other than the Latin church, then also "Eastern Catholic".)
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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xnman said:
Given the many different teaches of the Baptist church... is it hard to define Baptist? Same with Catholics?
when it comes baptists, they did buy out a Baptist Bible software company and got all (assuming) the publisher contracts associated with that.
I think you’re looking for more c of c titles, and this project is about better identifying the theological affiliation of existing books.
for what it’s worth, the building we meet at is a church of Christ of prophecy building. they graciously share it with us Baptists at a price we can afford. To their credit they are just glad the gospel is still going out in that community. which I love.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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xnman said:
And most definitely no market if there is nothing to buy.
Plymouth Brethren rate a line in the store browser with only 10 books. Stone-Campbell exceeds that. (and no, in the PNW, there is no pejorative sense implied).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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abondservant said:xnman said:
Given the many different teaches of the Baptist church... is it hard to define Baptist? Same with Catholics?
when it comes baptists, they did buy out a Baptist Bible software company and got all (assuming) the publisher contracts associated with that.
I think you’re looking for more c of c titles, and this project is about better identifying the theological affiliation of existing books.
for what it’s worth, the building we meet at is a church of Christ of prophecy building. they graciously share it with us Baptists at a price we can afford. To their credit they are just glad the gospel is still going out in that community. which I love.
I'm not trying to push Church of Christ above others.... Just would like it included... which as of now... it is not.
I too am thankful for all that proclaim and uphold the name of Jesus.
And for what it's worth... Church of Christ is different than Stone-Campbell movement. Stone-Campbell were part of the Reformation (or some call the Restoration) period...
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
Stone-Campbell were part of the Reformation (or some call the Restoration) period
Stone-Campbell were part of the (American) Restoration Movement beginning in the Second Great Awakening (early 19th century). This is quite separate from the Reformation which was primarily a European phenomenon.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Its been a few years; but from what I remember... well let me take a step back. There was the protestant reformation, and then the restoration, which are two different periods of time. The protestant reformation is widely accepted by protestants - except landmark baptists that trace their history back to john the baptist through a lot of different generally baptistic (and not always evangelical) groups. The restoration is seen by people within that movement as a sort of step 2 after the reformation. EG it was seen by members of the movement as a returning to the scriptural beliefs of Jesus from the corrupted baptist views of the 19th century. Is there then a branch of C of C that traces their history back through john the baptist as well? or did i misunderstand? Is your c of c part of the tradition that stresses ecumenicism?xnman said:I'm not trying to push Church of Christ above others.... Just would like it included... which as of now... it is not.
I too am thankful for all that proclaim and uphold the name of Jesus.
And for what it's worth... Church of Christ is different than Stone-Campbell movement. Stone-Campbell were part of the Reformation (or some call the Restoration) period...
My baptist history class talked about stone, and campbell breaking away, and then later more or less joining forces for the restoration.
But what I've learned from the CofC of Prophecy is that its not monolithic, and there are many many splinters within the denomination stream.
I think the answer is still going to be hounding the various inlets for new books, until they start adding them. But you'll want to create a list, and send them in a few at a time, make user voices for them, email your sales people asking for them, and so on.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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My view of the Stone-Campbell movement.
My Mennonite great-great-great grandfather joined the Stone-Campbell movement in Tennessee. His family along with several other "Pennsylvania Dutch" then moved to MIssouri and then on to the West Coast. The brother of my great-great grandfather followed his brother to south central Washington where the brother founded more than six Church of Christ congregations in Oregon and Washington. My Grandfather went to a Stone-Campbell seminary that with the split became Disciples of Christ. The various churches that I knew (3 in the valley and one in Oregon) went their separate ways - two used musical instruments, one had a female preacher from the late 1940's on, etc. As a matter of dogma, the Churches are the church founded by Jesus Christ although admittedly there are sparse historical records of them. However, as a matter of practical visibility, they considered themselves a part of the Stone-Campbell/restoration/2nd great awakening movement. I never heard the term "Campbellite" nor of a pejorative sense to "Stone-Campbell" until these forums. Rather, we used the term "Stone-Campbell" as an insider term for all the churches and colleges that we considered to be "like-minded". And, yes, my great grandfather Church of Christ-er married an Irish Catholic; my grandfather Church-of-Christ preacher married a Finnish Lutheran; my father Church of Christ deacon-elder married a mainline Protestant. That's the history of the group as my family lived it. Not a comprehensive history but one I know to be accurate.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I didn't know Stone-Campbell was used derisively, my intent isn't to offend. I hope I haven't.MJ. Smith said:My view of the Stone-Campbell movement.
My Mennonite great-great-great grandfather joined the Stone-Campbell movement in Tennessee. His family along with several other "Pennsylvania Dutch" then moved to MIssouri and then on to the West Coast. The brother of my great-great grandfather followed his brother to south central Washington where the brother founded more than six Church of Christ congregations in Oregon and Washington. My Grandfather went to a Stone-Campbell seminary that with the split became Disciples of Christ. The various churches that I knew (3 in the valley and one in Oregon) went their separate ways - two used musical instruments, one had a female preacher from the late 1940's on, etc. As a matter of dogma, the Churches are the church founded by Jesus Christ although admittedly there are sparse historical records of them. However, as a matter of practical visibility, they considered themselves a part of the Stone-Campbell/restoration/2nd great awakening movement. I never heard the term "Campbellite" nor of a pejorative sense to "Stone-Campbell" until these forums. Rather, we used the term "Stone-Campbell" as an insider term for all the churches and colleges that we considered to be "like-minded". And, yes, my great grandfather Church of Christ-er married an Irish Catholic; my grandfather Church-of-Christ preacher married a Finnish Lutheran; my father Church of Christ deacon-elder married a mainline Protestant. That's the history of the group as my family lived it. Not a comprehensive history but one I know to be accurate.
The version of baptist history that I learned did trace their roots back to the Baptist denomination though. Stone for instance had been anglican and methodist, then Baptist while attending a presbyterian college/seminary. The older Campbell was presbyterian, turned baptist. His son Alexander joined him. For about two decades both were baptist as part of several different baptist associations. But I'm unclear whether then some of the Church of Christ folks identify with landmarkism or not. I could call our churches landlord and ask about his particular splinter. But it wouldn't be a comprehensive picture of the movement. The timing coincides with the popularity of landmarkism IIRC which was poorly received by the baptists so much so that they had multiple resolutions speaking out against it at the conventions of the mid 1800s and onward. Though there are still those that promote the trail of blood in the 6 SBC seminaries to this day.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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abondservant said:
Though there are still those that promote the trail of blood
Thanks for introducing this to me. I found a great diagram on wikipedia. I found it amusingly anachronistic in that it used modern names for early groups with some similar beliefs e.g. Puritans in the 400's AD but this equation serves the purpose well.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I do so with the caveat that Carroll - author of the book "The Trail of Blood" however well meaning, seemed to either be unaware (at best) of things we know now, or glossed over them (at worst). It doesn't hold up under historiography. Some of the groups hated each other and tried to exterminate through murder other groups on the list. It seems unlikely that they would have willingly passed the baton one group to the next.
But who knows! There are a lot of good Godly people that hold to it.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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MJ. Smith said:
...I never heard the term "Campbellite" nor of a pejorative sense to "Stone-Campbell" until these forums...
While I don't think the term "Campbellite" is as common as it once was, I've both heard and (more often) read it used by those who have negative view of the churches of Christ (for examples, just Google "Campbellite heresy"). My sense is that it was actually fairly common in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I've never thought of the term "Stone-Campbell Movement" as being pejorative. For what it's worth, the congregations I grew up in consistently talked about the "Restoration Movement", and never used the term "Stone-Campbell Movement". My guess is that some within the churches of Christ who are unfamiliar the historical use of the term "Stone-Campbell" may react to it as a denominational label similar to "Lutheran" (even though I've never heard it used in that way).
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EastTN said:MJ. Smith said:
...I never heard the term "Campbellite" nor of a pejorative sense to "Stone-Campbell" until these forums...
While I don't think the term "Campbellite" is as common as it once was, I've both heard and (more often) read it used by those who have negative view of the churches of Christ (for examples, just Google "Campbellite heresy"). My sense is that it was actually fairly common in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
I've never thought of the term "Stone-Campbell Movement" as being pejorative. For what it's worth, the congregations I grew up in consistently talked about the "Restoration Movement", and never used the term "Stone-Campbell Movement". My guess is that some within the churches of Christ who are unfamiliar the historical use of the term "Stone-Campbell" may react to it as a denominational label similar to "Lutheran" (even though I've never heard it used in that way).
Thats probably true of any tradition though as well. I googled SBC Heresy and found way more stuff than I can talk about here, from Me too stuff, to social gospel, to gender issues, and issues of sexual identity. Plus (accurate) accusations that the politics of Trump are more important in some (not all) spheres than Jesus.
Some of these things are accurate. Some of the accurate things are right, and some the accurate things are wrong, and some things are wildly off base and not accurate. Which I think covers every possible position lol. People from all sides calling each other heretics over things like the trail of blood. Do I agree? Nope. But neither are they in heresy. Its wearying. Everyone wants to divide over everything. While I just want to preach Jesus.
I hear the criticism, I evaluate it (EG Beth Moore's complaints about complimentarianism vs egalitarianism), compare her accusations against scripture, and adjust if need be, or reject the criticism if need be. Eat the wheat, toss out the chaff.
In the essentials Unity, in the non essentials liberty, and in all things charity. ~St Augustine.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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For clarification as I know it.... Alexandar Campbell was never a member of the Church of Christ. He is accredited with studying himself out of "denominationalism" (whatever that means) and then became a member of the 1st Christian Church. He did believe in baptism as being necessary and he was baptized by a deacon of the Presbyterian Church and then he baptized the deacon.
As to the musical instruments side of things ..... There was ruse in the Church of Christ about m.i. in which people chose sides and had many public debates about it around 1900. In 1906, the Church of Christ split with one side using m.i. in worship and the other side denouncing such practice. The group that used m.i. in worship changed their name to 1st Christian Church. And some were called "Disciples of Christ" which was another splinter of the 1st Christian Church.
Today, there are a group calling themselves "Church of Christ" that do us m.i. in worship. Because of this, they only add confusion to the name of "Church of Christ". But they are not in fellowship with the Church of Christ known as the mainstream.
There are other splinters of the Church of Christ - Women leaders, Non-Instutional, Mainstream, Worship on any day of the week to name a few. And then there is the Mainstream. The Mainstream are where the "splinters" came from.
In 33 AD there was only one church Jesus built. In Acts 2:47 it says, “praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.” Which proves the church that Jesus build, existed in 33 AD. That church was not called by any denominational names around today.
This information is not available in the books and resources in the Logos Library.... not even for purchase. I wish it were....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
In 1906, the Church of Christ split with one side using m.i. in worship and the other side denouncing such practice. The group that used m.i. in worship changed their name to 1st Christian Church.
Untrue, most Church of Christ (Standard Publishing) use musical instruments. The "1st" in 1st Christian Church (or any denomination) refers to the historical first church of that denomination established in the town. [Christian Scientists are the clearest example of this convention]. The first split I reocgnize happened a bit later ... several dates have been proposed but the split was independent Christian Church/Church of Christ on one side and Christian Church/Disciples of Christ on the other. My Grandfather went to seminary as this split was in progress ... the seminary he attended ended up on the Disciples of Christ side while he remained on the Church of Christ side. This book
which is in Logos, gives the major causes of the split as:
- theological modernism
- ecumenical movement
- open membership
I was taught congregational independence was also a major point of disagreement. I was also taught 1926-7 as the date of the split. I've seen dates from this as the earliest to 1971 as the latest.
As an aside I was also taught of the foundational role of John Locke in Campbell's thinking. As an aside, I learned something fascinating in Dunnavant - fascinating as my great-great-grandfather on my maternal side was into founding abolitionist seminary in Northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin include my alma mater and the University of Chicago. [quote]
The period that extends from the founding of the University of Chicago and the publication of J. W. McGarvey’s New Commentary on Acts to H. L. Willett’s retirement from the University of Chicago was marked by the encounter between the developing indigenous ecclesiastical tradition of the Stone-Campbell Movement and the incursion of higher criticism from the academic world. The conflict was embodied in McGarvey and the College of the Bible, on the one hand, and Willett and the Disciples Divinity House of the University of Chicago, on the other. During this period the division between Disciples and the Churches of Christ was largely completed. The end of this period was marked by the tensions that would eventuate in the split between Disciples and the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ.
M. Eugene Boring, “Bible, Interpretation of The,” in The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement: Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, Churches of Christ, ed. Douglas A. Foster et al. (Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2004), 85.
I suspect some splits may be regional - South Central Washington and North Central Oregon were likely insulated from Southern/Northern disputes. I knew Disciples of Christ and Christian Church only as names in more urban areas. Our major urban areas had populations of 34,000 and 9,000 in 1950 ... less when these splits occurred.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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First, I'd like to endorse this book. It's a great resource on the history of the Restoration Movement. One of its advantages as a historical work is that it has contributors from more than one of the branches of the movement. While I might quibble with an entry here or there, overall, I've found it to be quite even-handed.
MJ. Smith said:Dunnavant, Douglas Allen; Foster, Anthony L. (2004). The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement: Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Christian Churches/Churches of Christ, Churches of Christ. Wm. B. Eerdmans. ISBN 0-8028-3898-7.
One source of confusion in all this is that the terms "Christian Church" and "Churches of Christ" are both used by more than one branch of the Restoration movement. Another is that there have been multiple splits. I believe xnman and MJ may be talking about different splits.
My sense is that multiple factors went into the first split which developed in the late 1800s between the Churches of Christ and the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). A major factor was disagreement about organizational structures above the congregational level, specifically missionary societies and conventions. Instrumental music was a factor as well. Some of it was likely cultural - as I recall, congregations in more affluent areas of the country were more likely to adopt pianos and organs, and congregations that became part of the Christian Churches tended to be more Northern and urban while congregations that became churches of Christ tended to be more rural and Southern. (I've seen the term "non-instrument churches of Christ" sometimes used to distinguish this group from the "Independent Christian Church/Churches of Christ," which is a different branch of the movement.) A date of 1906 is often placed on this split, because that year there was a federal census that listed the two groups as separate denominations for the first time. I think this is the split xnman is talking about.
I believe 1926/1927 was when the Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ split off from the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) with the development of the North American Christian Convention. That's the split that was driven by the three factors MJ identifies. The Independent Christian Church/Churches of Christ were the more conservative branch of that split. Setting aside membership in the convention and the question of instrumental music, my sense is that today most Independent Christian Church/Churches of Christ congregations are theologically more similar to the non-instrumental churches of Christ than they are to the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). I think this is the split MJ is talking about.
Anyway, I hope this helps. The history of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement is a confusing topic.
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EastTN said:
Anyway, I hope this helps. The history of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement is a confusing topic.
This makes sense ... members of my family through whom I learned the history would not have consider census data as a relevant marker of a division as the standard answer as to number of theological "flavors" in "like-minded" was normally set at around 27.
The size of the towns the 4 churches I knew the history of directly, one was too small to find in the 1930 Census data, the others are listed in 1930 as having populations of 84 (my home), 459 (the female preacher who was sister to our post master), and 2330 (shopping center and a non-instrumental church we would visit on special occasions). In 1937 or 8, my preacher grandfather had nearly 500 people turn out for his funeral in a church that holds at best around 100 (built by my Irish Catholic great-great-grandfather with the help of my Finnish Lutheran (pietist) great-grandfather). These two also built a Catholic Church and a Finnish Lutheran Church ... 3 churches in a town of 84. Not bad ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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xnman said:
I'm not trying to push Church of Christ above others.... Just would like it included... which as of now... it is not.
I just noticed not only are several books included in the bookstore but
[quote]Disciples of Christ member: A member of a Disciples of Christ (otherwise known as “The Christian Church”) church. This denomination finds it’s roots in the Stone-Campbell movement.
Jessica Parks, Notable People Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2021).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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EastTN said:
... The history of the Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement is a confusing topic.
As abondservant noted above, "this project is about better identifying the theological affiliation of existing books."
So, yes, it's a confusing topic, and it's hard dipping in as an outsider. If those of you who understand the situation much better are able to take a look at the spreadsheet, use the filter in column H to find the 75 people listed as "Restoration Movement", with no further refinement, and indicate as far as possible which branch they are in, then that would be really helpful. I'll gladly update the spreadsheet. If you were also able to check the other 49 people listed under "Restoration Movement", using the filter in column G, then that would be even more greatly appreciated.
Since this recent discussion started, I've added Alexander Campbell, but as I started checking others, I was reminded of how hard it is to tell from church websites and other information which branches people and churches are in. Inside knowledge may be required.
Here's the latest spreadsheet, in case it has got lost in the discussion (pre-filtered for "Restoration Movement" and now including Alexander Campbell): Denominations and Theology 2023.xlsm
(NB: For some reason this file is uploading as a .docx file, rather than the .xlsm file that it really is, so you may need to remove the final .docx from the file name to open it. If anyone knows why this is happening when I use the "Insert Image from Amber" function, I'll happily fix it.)
The Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance idea builds on this project. To vote for it, go to feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance
Or, to find out more, go to community.logos.com/forums/t/208162.aspx
Thanks.
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Great discussion.... Thanks to all...
Untrue??? Really? In all this I do believe the bible is the best historical book ever written... And I'm ok siding with it. And the church that Jesus started existed in 33 AD as Acts 2:47 so states ("... and the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved") and that church was called Church of Christ per Paul in Rom 16:16.
Notice something.... That church knew how to worship. That church knew how to be organized. That church knew it's purpose. All because of the teachings of the apostles - Eph 2:20.
And back then (33 AD thru 100 AD) I don't find the disciples worshipping in other "churches"... So what changed? Did the church change or did the people change it?
Now given that bit of information, from the greatest historical book ever written, then other man made "churches" came from that one branch, simply because that was the only "church" in town. I know, I know.... there were the Pharisees and the Sadducees and such... but they did not worship with the disciples. The disciples worshipped in the church that Jesus built.
--- One era that is cause of lots of confusion is: The ara of 100 AD - 300 AD as there is nothing to support man's subjective ideas of that era. I know there are letters written by some men... but the dates, from what I find is subjective and gives confusion to the issue. ----
Another era that causes confusion is: Most people want to be right and therefore try to prove themselves right instead of letting the evidence prove what is right. Logical thinkers follow the evidence wherever it leads them.
But note this: Jesus promised nothing would stand against the church that He built, Mat 16:18... And I believe that promise...
Which then verifies that the church Jesus built is still around today and worship like they did in 33 AD and is organized like they were in 33 AD all because we have the same teachings (bible) as they did... Eph 2:20. That church is the Church of Christ. I don't say "Mainstream" but that is what it is.
Now... Most of the Churches of Christ do not use m.i. in its worship, simply because they didn't in the 1st century. Yes, as I admitted before, there are some Church of Christ that do us m.i. in worship, but they are not the Mainstream (which is the majority). There is a book that was published by 20th Century Publishing, that listed all known churches of Christ that will verify this. It's not in Logos books.....
And there is a religious group known as 1st Christian Church which did start in 1906... and was a major split from the Mainstream Church of Christ. This caused much grief in both "churches" at the time because families were split because of it. I have studied some of the debates that went on for my own learning about the issues then.
As I stated... today there are "Mainstream" Church of Christ, M.I. Church of Christ, Non-Institutional Church of Christ, Women Leaders Church of Christ, One Cup Church of Christ... that I know of and have verified.
With respect, I liken it to Catholics, Baptist, or any other group... they all have "splintered" and have different teachings in their ranks today.
Bottom line... It is not true to say that the majority of churches that call themselves Church of Christ use m.i. in their worship.
In 1999, I did a study of "churches", then I found there were 38,000 different bodies calling themselves a "church" of some kind. My interest then was when did all these "churches" start. I plan on furthering that study to what they believe.... and I've been wanting to make a PB of that study for Logos... but I continually run out of daylight....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Historical calendar observation is 14 Nissan 33 CE being a Saturday (Sabbath):
Hebrew Jewish to Julian Calendar Date Converter has an Online converter that shows day of the week for Biblical Scholars. Puzzling is 14 Nissan 33 conversion example on Hebrew Jewish to Julian Calendar Date Converter having 3 April 33 (for Adar II leap month that precedes Nissan) while Online converter shows 2 May 33.
Looking at 14 Nissan day of the week between CE years 26 and 36 finds two years for resurrection on the 1st day of the week: 27 & 30.
Julian & Gregorian calendar can have any day of the month fall on any day of the week. Hebrew calendar has lunar months (14th = full moon), which periodically adds a leap month, which keeps Holy days in the appropriate season: e.g. Pesach (Passover) in the Spring.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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xnman said:
Untrue??? Really? In all this I do believe the bible is the best historical book ever written... And I'm ok siding with it. And the church that Jesus started existed in 33 AD as Acts 2:47 so states ("... and the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved") and that church was called Church of Christ per Paul in Rom 16:16.
Way off topic. I was indicating that your statement re: musical instruments in independent Christian/Church of Christ was untrue and provided a concrete example -- churches that use Standard Publishing Company which has a long-term relationship with Logos and hence was most likely recognizable to forum readers.
No one did. This is called a straw man argument. I am going to withdraw from the thread.xnman said:It is not true to say that the majority of churches that call themselves Church of Christ use m.i. in their worship.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Greetings Andrew. I was also unable to open file as it keeps "insisting" that it is a docx file. I tried renaming it without the erroneous ending, however, not being the author, it would not let me change it. Hopefully this can be fixed quickly.
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Bill Shewmaker said:
Greetings Andrew. I was also unable to open file as it keeps "insisting" that it is a docx file. I tried renaming it without the erroneous ending, however, not being the author, it would not let me change it. Hopefully this can be fixed quickly.
Sorry to hear that, Bill. If you download it, you should be able to change the file name, just removing .docx, as per Mattillo's advice in an earlier post. It shouldn't matter who the author is, although it may depend on the device and operating system you're using.
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Hi Andrew, I haven't followed this thread religiously, but I have recently come upon the need to identify someone's theological background and I was able to find it in the latest version of your spreadsheet. Kudos to you for all this work!
I also, for a completely unrelated reason, found myself wanting to help someone on the forums with book recommendations and let him know what theological perspective the authors were writing from. I found one author who wasn't yet in your list, J. A. du Rand (author of Johannine Perspectives). I did some googling about him and was able to find out that his full name was Jan Abraham du Rand, he taught theology in South Africa and was credentialed in the NGK (Dutch Reformed Church). Sadly, he died of Covid-19 in 2021. But now we know his denominational affiliation. A Google translation of the obituary told all this and other details.
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Thanks for the Kudos, Rosie, and for the author info.
I've added J. A. du Rand. I'll try to publish an updated version of the spreadsheet soon.
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Hi Andrew,
Another missing author I can easily identify for you: Fleming Rutledge. She is an Episcopalian priest.
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Thanks again, Rosie. I've added Fleming Rutledge as well. Her works weren't available in Logos when I first created the data.
There's a major update or two coming soon. Watch this space...
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Andrew Baguley said:
There's a major update or two coming soon. Watch this space...
Looking forward to it Andrew. Thanks for all you continue to do in this space. I use your work continually.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bruce Dunning said:Andrew Baguley said:
There's a major update or two coming soon. Watch this space...
Looking forward to it Andrew. Thanks for all you continue to do in this space. I use your work continually.
Thanks for the encouragement, Bruce. After Logos imported my data and started to provide it in Logos, I wasn't sure if anyone was using it any more.
It would be far easier for me for Logos to look after the data, but they don't seem to present it in such a useable way, and I'm not convinced that their data has had so much attention to detail. (Less diplomatically, there are many errors and inconsistencies.)
However, after Rosie's prompt, and your encouragement, I thought I'd publish an update. See the next post.
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Here's the latest spreadsheet: Denominations and Theology - Nov 2023.xlsm
I'm not sure why it pretends to be a Word document when downloaded. Changing the extension to .xlsx or .xlsm should make it work.
It's also available here: https://1drv.ms/x/s!Al6XZ3KAsP1pgSN7z6Db_SPTixbM?e=9yO2Dh
I've added well over 2500 new authors, so there are now nearly 10,000 authors included, although many are still uncategorised and simply say Newly Added for now. These will take time to categorise. See the Help Appreciated tab if you can help or you know someone else who can.
I've also changed the names of various authors to match the names that Logos now uses. They appear to have changed many authors to use middle names instead of initials, or initials instead of middle names, for example. If anyone knows the reasoning behind this and the rules being followed, I'd be interested to hear them. I've added comments to names so that no data has been lost.
See the Help Appreciated tab if you can help or you know someone else who can.
See the Links tab for other related projects that it would be great if Logos took over. In particular, the Bible Interpretation Choices at a Glance project, see https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/bible-interpretation-choices-at-a-glance
Thanks again for the encouragement, Rosie and Bruce. All suggestions have been included. Other suggestions and offers of help welcome.
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