Deceptive advertising

I'm a big Logos enthusiast and have previously successfully encouraged others to buy it and benefit, simply to share the blessing. I'm sure many users have done the same.

Therefore I was delighted to share the "Refer a friend" $100 off link this week. This is still advertised alongside the Cyberweek savings. However, a friend informed me that applying the $100 off code removes the 30% base package discount. Therefore, for most base packages the $100 off is less than worthless - if applied instead of the 30% it would actually result in a WORSE deal for the buyer. (To be fair to Logos, I think the site just ignores the $100 off coupon and gives the 30%).

But the failure of the $100 coupon unfortunately has two effects

Turns people off Logos
Deters me from recommending

There is no statement like "$100 cannot be combined with any other discount" only the catch-all "discount terms and conditions may change."

It's absolutely up to Logos to charge what they want and discount as they want. But this is disappointingly sharp practice.

Come on, Logos. Surely you're better than this.

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Comments

DMB

Did you think it was intensional, or they simply missed putting in the tiny qualifier that most people expect? And 30% is a pretty significant cut for them, on packages.

How much largesse were you expecting?

mike

unpopular opinion here... I think Logos is dying. They laid so many people off. They're not as innovative as before. No major changes like the previous releases. CEO step down. Putting condition on $20 birthday gift. Many bad sales. Their PR is bad. Outsourcing the CS to Mexico. Their YouTube channel is dead. Their innovative team is dead and so small now.

I don't know. Logos now is soo much different then 3-4 years ago.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278530#Comment_1278530

unpopular opinion here.

You might be right. But on the other hand (!), they might be busy with a significant block-buster. I only point this out, because in earlier major efforts, the 'normal' development at Logos seemed to waver. Now, that idea might waver, watching all the pre-pubs 'in development' ... what's up?

Ken Shawver

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278530#Comment_1278530

Well things change even if we don't want them to. I have been off the forum for quite awhile with other things, but understand the change in CEO and where Bob and his family have been. I think for a while there they expanded into too many things with all of the Faithlife, but also see reasons why. It sounds like they have been working to get to their roots.

They have come a long way since the early Libronix days when I first started using the software. Logos is still a great option and I still promote it just as I did when I was part of the Logos Ambassador program.

Do I miss certain things, sure. Do I wish they did some other things, sometimes. But all in all they do a very good job in bringing resources to someone's finger-tips.

As for moving CS to Mexico, it is a part of doing business. My day job has offices all over the world including Mexico. I have team members there and they are excellent at their jobs.

The best thing to do is continue to pray for God's direction in the Logos leadership team and that they continue fulfilling what their mission is.

God Bless.

Jerry Bush

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278530#Comment_1278530

unpopular opinion here... I think Logos is dying. They laid so many people off. They're not as innovative as before. No major changes like the previous releases. CEO step down. Putting condition on $20 birthday gift. Many bad sales. Their PR is bad. Outsourcing the CS to Mexico. Their YouTube channel is dead. Their innovative team is dead and so small now.

I don't know. Logos now is soo much different then 3-4 years ago.

I don't doubt it is this dire. Not happy about moving CS to Mexico though. I get it from a business perspective.

Reasons for some of your points:

- Logos is a mature product. How many more features can they add? I already wish I could delete or at least hide some of them. It is pretty bloated.

- Some of this could be because of the CEO change. They are going through a transition from the founder to a new guy; that is huge. I like that they are de-emphasizing Faithlife and focusing on Logos.

- The post v10 updates have been really good and focused on making things better. Does not cost us a dime.

- Bad sales? Depends on where you are on your Logos "journey." Mine is 23 years now and many of the books that are on sale I have already. I have 4k plus; how many more do I really need? I know there are people with 20k plus but I could not use that many books myself. I consider myself fortunate and blessed to have the library I have. But I hope we all keep buying books at the level we can/need so Logos is around for a long time.

- I'd rather they focus on Proclaim and Logos rather than keeping up the YouTube channel. They are offering webinars through different people and I find them helpful. Scott Lindsey gave away a book for each seminar he did recently.

- Birthday coupon... they don't owe it to us. They HAVE to make money or we are all out in the cold. I didn't bat an eye at the changes and was surprised at the negative reaction. What is the big deal?

- Not sure what you mean by innovative team being dead.

I am not trying to be contrary at all. I've seen a lot of changes over the last 23+ years. But is that not normal for business? I am not worried... not at all. Perhaps some of the changes you interpret as a company dying are actually looking to be more lean and mean for long-term viability. I hope to be using the software for another 23 years and I have a sense that I will be.

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278530#Comment_1278530

unpopular opinion here... I think Logos is dying. They laid so many people off. They're not as innovative as before. No major changes like the previous releases. CEO step down. Putting condition on $20 birthday gift. Many bad sales. Their PR is bad. Outsourcing the CS to Mexico. Their YouTube channel is dead. Their innovative team is dead and so small now.

I don't know. Logos now is soo much different then 3-4 years ago.

I have some concerns, but I don't see the situation as quite as dire as you seem to. The transition when the founder of a successful company steps away is always a critical period. But we knew that was going to happen sooner or later. Innovation is important, but Logos already does pretty much everything I want it to - at least in principle. My preference would be for them to refine the existing features (my pet peeve is the timeline) rather than add new ones. I would also like to see them do a better job of curating the resources they offer. Just yesterday there was a thread complaining that a pornographic work made it through the automatic feed from one of the publishers Faithlife works with. The solution they're working on seems to be to improve the automated process. I would much rather have a smaller selection of works in the store, but know that someone had at least read the cover material on each book before it was posted. Yes, even if it's an intern.

Derek Schrock (Faithlife)

Hi Cromwell, my name is Derek and I'm the Manager of our Ambassador Programs. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. It's definitely not our intent to have deceptive advertising; we want to be as clear and accurate as possible. We'll update our site to clarify this and avoid future confusion.

The $100 off a base package referral offer was meant to be $100 off a full-priced base package. However, as you noted with the 30-35% sale going on, any base package Bronze and higher is saving more than $100, and our system automatically applies the better discount to ensure the customer isn't getting a worse deal. This means for a short time those who participate in our referral program are able to share a better discount than what was initially offered. As you shared though, our website and emails don't communicate that clearly, which we'll work to correct now.

Thanks for being a Logos enthusiast and being willing to share about it with others. I hope with our clarifications you'll continue to participate in our referral program and help equip others with bible study tools.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278559#Comment_1278559

- Logos is a mature product. How many more features can they add? I already wish I could delete or at least hide some of them. It is pretty bloated.

Unfortunately, I don't see it that way. I see Logos as focused strongly on grammatical-historical criticism which I consider to be one of the least productive methods of study except for scholars in particular areas. Seriously, how much time did you spend on grammar when you read Beowulf? I also see Logos as a collection of poorly integrated and often incomplete information with the most useful information often being the least easily found. Logos has reached the hump where cool ideas from the forefront of Bible language processing is no longer sufficient for customer satisfaction. It is not uncommon for software startups to have a transition from the founding idea leader to a polish and mature leader. That is where I think Logos is at this time. So far, I've been pleased with the approaches a user can see and I expect to see significant upgrades in the integration of data and the user interface.

scooter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278584#Comment_1278584

Hi Cromwell, my name is Derek and I'm the Manager of our Ambassador Programs. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. It's definitely not our intent to have deceptive advertising; we want to be as clear and accurate as possible. We'll update our site to clarify this and avoid future confusion.

The $100 off a base package referral offer was meant to be $100 off a full-priced base package. However, as you noted with the 30-35% sale going on, any base package Bronze and higher is saving more than $100, and our system automatically applies the better discount to ensure the customer isn't getting a worse deal. This means for a short time those who participate in our referral program are able to share a better discount than what was initially offered. As you shared though, our website and emails don't communicate that clearly, which we'll work to correct now.

Thanks for being a Logos enthusiast and being willing to share about it with others. I hope with our clarifications you'll continue to participate in our referral program and help equip others with bible study tools.

Hi, Derek: I appreciate you coming on the forums.

Communication from FL to us is important. OP should not have had to question your veracity. Fl employees need to, in advance, sweat the details, so we have a smooth ride. How does program 1 interact with program 2? This seems very obvious to me, but FL has done it again! By now, this kind of oopsie should be a rarity.

You are the Manager of Ambassador Programs. I would have wished you had let us in on what that means. Maybe some people know, but I surely do not.

Think like a customer is how I say it. Inform us. Answer the questions before we ask them. Please.

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278595#Comment_1278595

My friend bought his BP and was pleased with his purchase and I received $100 just like it was intended to work, so no complaints on my part. I will mention this new caveat in the future, just in case 😁

DAL

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278586#Comment_1278586

It is not uncommon for software startups to have a transition from the founding idea leader to a polish and mature leader. That is where I think Logos is at this time. So far, I've been pleased with the approaches a user can see and I expect to see significant upgrades in the integration of data and the user interface.

I think that is a fair assessment and I remain optimistic to see how Logos will continue to improve.

We are very blessed to have the privilege of owning resources in such an amazing environment. I often remind myself of what Bible study used to be like when we only had paper copies of books and Logos has fundamentally changed how I do Bible study now. I'm a Canadian and we already celebrated Thanksgiving in October but I'm currently vacationing in Florida and will be celebrating Thanksgiving again this week. Indeed be are blessed!

1Cor10 31

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278584#Comment_1278584

Hi Cromwell, my name is Derek and I'm the Manager of our Ambassador Programs. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. It's definitely not our intent to have deceptive advertising; we want to be as clear and accurate as possible. We'll update our site to clarify this and avoid future confusion.

The $100 off a base package referral offer was meant to be $100 off a full-priced base package. However, as you noted with the 30-35% sale going on, any base package Bronze and higher is saving more than $100, and our system automatically applies the better discount to ensure the customer isn't getting a worse deal. This means for a short time those who participate in our referral program are able to share a better discount than what was initially offered. As you shared though, our website and emails don't communicate that clearly, which we'll work to correct now.

Thanks for being a Logos enthusiast and being willing to share about it with others. I hope with our clarifications you'll continue to participate in our referral program and help equip others with bible study tools.

There are more caveats than above

This is what Logos says on its website: "Referral reward only paid out for new base package purchases (Starter and higher with a minimum $175 purchase total)"

I interpreted it to mean that if you buy a base package that costs more than $175, my friend would get $100 off. No sir, that's not the case. I contacted customer service. This is what they said by email: "the $175 minimum needs to be the total of an order after the $100 discount is applied."

xnman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278621#Comment_1278621

Welll..... personally, I think Logos has a great future! I think they have to change heads many times in order to change the thinking of what goes into the program and and direction it takes.

I don't think Logos is struggling at all and I think we customers should give them some latitude in the progression to something better.

Programs come from the imagination of the developers. Seems to me that Mark Barnes hs been trying out different things to find out what we customers really want and to be truthful, we customers cannot make up our minds on anything.

I have come to love Logos... and am excited about its future. And I think it has a great future!!! [8-|]

Mike Childs

I will miss Bob's leadership at Logos. However, having semi-retired myself (though I still preach twice each Sunday), I realize there are transitions in life and in business.

Logos Bible software is great. Having used Logos Bible Software since about 1991 or 1992, it has been, and continues to be, a very great blessing to my life. Over these 40 some odd years I have built an excellent pastor's library of some 9,500 plus books. I know many others have more, but I have most of what I need in books.

However, I agree the software is bloated. We need the ability to streamline our Logos software for our individual needs by turning off features that we do not use. I hate Factbook. It pops up uninvited and wastes my time, breaking my concentration, to close it again and again. I realize others love the feature, and that is okay with me. But if I need to check a fact, I will look it up in a resource that I trust. LET US HAVE SOME CONTROL OVER WHAT INTERUPTS OUR STUDY. Do not force features upon us.

Finally, the secret of Logos' success is the books available at prices that are reasonable (mostly). It is all about the books. Forget more bells and whistles. Put the money into more books, such as the New Cambridge Commentary and the Bicentennial edition of John Wesley's Works. (You knew I would mention that.)

I do hope progress is made in improving the mobile apps.

God bless Logos and its employees, and God bless Bob who began this wonderful tool.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278631#Comment_1278631

I hate Factbook. It pops up uninvited and wastes my time,

What do you mean Mike? Factbook doesn't pop-up uninvited for me. It's there when I request it, otherwise I don't even notice it. If you are referring to Factbook Tags Visual Filter button, you can easily turn these off using the Factbook Tags Visual Filter button icon on the Resource toolbar or set them so only Factbook Tags or interest to you are displayed. For instance, you might only want to see Factbook tags for places and nothing else, so unselect all the other options.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278530#Comment_1278530

They laid so many people off.

It's not the first time Logos / Faithlife has done this and may not be the last. Companies change focus and direction and do shed staff whose skill sets are no longer required. I don't like it personally having been on the wrong side of such business decisions a few times in my life but if a business does not change and respond to changing external and internal factors that is when it becomes at risk of dying.

They're not as innovative as before.

Their innovative team is dead and so small now.

No major changes like the previous releases.

I wouldn't say that I think there has been a lot of innovation has gone into Logos 10 and previous versions, it hasn't all been things of interest to me, and at other times the innovation is things going on under the hood that aren't as obvious. Innovation does not mean releasing new features every six weeks - and personally, I don't think we need new features every six weeks. And while I don't like it laying off staff as a step to restructure where the skills emphasis of you workforce is placed is a step in the innovation process. You need staff with the correct skill sets before you can be innovative in taking a business in new directions. And sometimes you need to step back and consolidate your core strengths before you jump into new things and that can lead to a reduction in team size.

CEO step down.

Being a CEO is a tough role, and family and personal well-being are more important than the job. And it takes a person of great character and leadership to recognize and say out aloud it's time for me to move on, I've given all I can to the role, I've taken the business this far and it's time for someone else to build on the foundation I have laid and to let go of the reigns knowing full well some of the decisions you have made and directions you have put in place are going to be changed by the new leadership - because a new leader inevitably means things will change.

Putting condition on $20 birthday gift. Many bad sales.

I have not problems with putting conditions on the $20 birthday gift - the whole idea of the certificate is to generate incremental sales, but it that was not happening then putting on some conditions to generate those incremental sales if a good business decision. As for sales I don't think there has been bad sales, there are always sales that don't interest me, but that doesn't make them bad that just means I can pass them over till the next one that does interest me comes along.

Their PR is bad.

When has it ever been great?

Outsourcing the CS to Mexico.

Outsourcing CS is not unusual.

Their YouTube channel is dead.

Never really used their YouTube channel. It hasn't been important to me.

Logos now is so much different then 3-4 years ago.

Change is inevitable, the world is different to what it was 3-4 years ago, I'm glad Logos is not the same company.

There was a period when they went too far outside their core business IMHO.

Cromwell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1278584#Comment_1278584

As you shared though, our website and emails don't communicate that clearly, which we'll work to correct now.

Derek, thank you for interacting on the forums. I appreciate you clarifying the wording which I notice you've done on the website. Unfortunately the confusion lost Logos two new customers on this occasion.

Trust is a big deal and it would be sad if when people saw a Logos offer they immediately thought "what's the catch?"

As I said, I've never gained from recommending Logos in the past. I love Logos but it is a costly product, especially the first base package. $100 store credit does not motivate me - seeing a great deal to recommend does.

Ken Burns

The biggest marketing deception of Logos is their upgrade to Logos 10 which implies you can add your print library to your collection.

As I understand it, all this feature does is give you a page no to refer to in your physical library. Since the books are copyrighted, this is understandable but very misleading marketing claim.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1296110#Comment_1296110

As I understand it, all this feature does is give you a page no to refer to in your physical library

It allows you to include those books in searches to enable you to quickly find relevant places in them. It doesn't add the content of the books themselves to your library.