Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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I like the subscription model because it allows more users to get into the fuller levels of the software quickly without having to think about making a huge investment. I think this will be a gift for pastors who don't have the budget but have always wanted to have it. I've spent more on Logos than I've spent on any of my vehicles.
I like the idea of having more people invested in the software which will support more feature support and creation. It'd be great to get a dedicated illustration and quote organizer separate from the notes tool and a word processer to write papers. I'd also love a more enhanced notes tool that is comparable to Evernote, one note or notion.
I understand the frustration of someone, like me, who has spent a lot of money and now the barrier to get started is much lower, but at the end of the day, anything that helps get people into the best tool to study the Bible is a good thing.
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I want to echo the sentiment that I want an option to buy resources, but I am open to a subscription for some of the latest bells and whistles in software features. I want some clarity as to the ACTUAL plan soon. Right now I feel like I should stop buying resources until I see what is really going to happen with the required $ just to keep my investment working
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Blessings in Christ.
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So, based on what I have read so far of what FLC users can expect, here is my current understanding (with additional comment):
- Access to all full package features (No longer)
- New features will be released when available, but in LP (even though we will be paying more) we won't even have all of the features we currently have access to - unless we agree to pay even more for a higher subscription tier in the autumn!!
- An additional 5% discount on all base packages (No longer)
- This actually got stopped before now (don't know when), but, again, another example of Logos reneging on its promises to FLC users.
- Access to FL TV (No longer)
- An additional 25% discount available on Lexham products (No longer)
- I don't use this every month, but I do use it sometimes and would certainly miss it.
- 3 free FL Classic Ebooks each month (No longer)
- My library is so big now that I already have most of the FL Classics that I want. However, I still find this very useful as I purchase base packages very strategically and use the 3 free books as a way to increase my discounts on packages. So I would definitely miss this.
- 2% back annually on all my purchases (No longer)
- This last benefit is a really big one.
To summarise (from what I understand so far), as a FLC user the bottom line is that I am going to be forced to pay more per year to keep some of the features I already have access to, and at the same time lose all the other benefits I had in FLC!! (I.e., LP: $9.99 per month = $119.88 per year, vs FLC: $99.99 per year.)
We haven't finalized everything a subscription to Logos Pro (or one of the other tiers) will include. We're certainly open to retaining the benefits of FLC that users really value. Sometimes, less (stuff) is more (valuable). And one of the takeaways from FLC is that it didn't directly address a problem enough users had. So we're trying to learn from that as bring forward a tight, focused solution that directly addresses the needs of the market. But, again, we're happy to consider retaining what most find useful.
Part of what motivates this is to simplify the number of subscription offering to make things less complicated for our users (and ourselves!). We have several overlapping subscriptions:
- Bible Study Bundle (on mobile)
- Faithlife Connect Mobile (on mobile)
- Logos Explore (on web)
- Logos Now > Faithlife Connect (No Library)
- Logos Cloud > Faithlife Connect
- Preaching Suite
- Verbum Now
- Verbum Cloud
It's a lot, and where possible we'd like to take the best of these and consolidate into a single set of subscription options.
On price, we definitely want to demonstrate our appreciation for those who have supported us via subscription over the last 9 years. We're exploring various discounts, grandfathered pricing, etc., and we'll have more to share on that this fall. But we definitely want to ensure that you all feel valued in how we structure your offers.
We'll also ensure that we fulfill the full term of your existing subscription you've already paid for (e.g., if you're on annual, your benefits won't stop before your year is complete).
Hi Phil, thanks for taking the time to respond. I do appreciate it.
I recognise that as a business Logos has to evaluate the best possible plan for the greatest number of users - and the simpler the solution, the better for everyone.
However, what I am asking is this: is it too much to expect a Christian business to honour their word when they say they will not drop their end of the contract?
Logos made a commitment to FLC users in the past that the contract would be honoured - why aren't they honouring it? And I hear the business argument; but if it really isn't meeting the needs of that many Logos users, then surely it's possible to keep it for the fewer FLC users who still want it?
As I tried to outline in my original post, what is being offered so far in LP vs what I have in FLC is nowhere near being equal. I hear you say that it is still being worked out what will be offered to FLC users, but that should have been done before announcing the discontinuation of FLC - otherwise, confidence is undermined. And considering Logos' track record so far with LN and FLC, FLC users can be forgiven for having angst about Logos actually delivering on its promise to provide equivalent value in LP - the promises have already been broken.
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I'll give you one simple example. We typically deliver more than a dozen new datasets with each major release. And while each of these is useful to some of our users, it likely doesn't represent the most pressing needs for our collective user base. What we're doing this release is focusing on unifying and simplifying the vast and rich (yet fragmented and disparate) datasets we've built over the last two decades. This is going to unlock incredible value for new and existing customers alike, but it doesn't really afford us with much of a monetization opportunity. Subscription enables—even requires—this kind of critical work, and we're super excited for what subscription monetization of our software can mean for fulfilling our vision of making Logos the world's most powerful Bible study app that anyone can use and getting it into the hands of hundreds of millions of users globally.
Phil, this post should be pinned at the top. I am convinced that we need 'STEP CHANGES' to take Bible Software to the next level. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over, then expecting different results. I applaud Logos doing something different, particularly with a vision and passion to continue to bring innovation into the Bible Software space.
This alone makes it worth the $9.99/month. My view is make this your USP of your subscription. To the investors of your Pro and other levels, give them benefits and a place to feedback. This is what we need.
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However, what I am asking is this: is it too much to expect a Christian business to honour their word when they say they will not drop their end of the contract?
Logos made a commitment to FLC users in the past that the contract would be honoured - why aren't they honouring it? And I hear the business argument; but if it really isn't meeting the needs of that many Logos users, then surely it's possible to keep it for the fewer FLC users who still want it?
I might need you to unpack this a bit for me. As I said previously, we will absolutely fulfill our side of the agreement and deliver FLC for as long as customers have paid for (or if for some reason we can't, offer a prorated refund for the unfulfilled portion of the term). But the very nature of a subscription offering is that it can change: it's features and benefits can change, it's price can change, or it can be discontinued entirely. None of these changes entails a breach of contract, so long as we (a) fulfill the agreement through the duration of the paid-for term and (b) give you plenty of time to decide whether you'd like to continue under the terms of a different offer and price.
But perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point. If so, I'm sorry.
And considering Logos' track record so far with LN and FLC, FLC users can be forgiven for having angst about Logos actually delivering on its promise to provide equivalent value in LP - the promises have already been broken.
Yes. I very much understand the concerns being expressed and don't fault you for your apprehension. FWIW, I was a user for many years before joining the Logos team, and you all have a special place in my heart. I understand your passion and love for our product and community and value all the feedback you all are sharing. Thank you for caring enough to share your thoughts.
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I'll give you one simple example. We typically deliver more than a dozen new datasets with each major release. And while each of these is useful to some of our users, it likely doesn't represent the most pressing needs for our collective user base. What we're doing this release is focusing on unifying and simplifying the vast and rich (yet fragmented and disparate) datasets we've built over the last two decades. This is going to unlock incredible value for new and existing customers alike, but it doesn't really afford us with much of a monetization opportunity. Subscription enables—even requires—this kind of critical work, and we're super excited for what subscription monetization of our software can mean for fulfilling our vision of making Logos the world's most powerful Bible study app that anyone can use and getting it into the hands of hundreds of millions of users globally.
Phil, this post should be pinned at the top. I am convinced that we need 'STEP CHANGES' to take Bible Software to the next level. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over, then expecting different results. I applaud Logos doing something different, particularly with a vision and passion to continue to bring innovation into the Bible Software space.
This alone make it worth the $9.99/month. My view is make this your USP of your subscription. To the investors of your Pro and other levels, give them benefits and a place to feedback. This is what we need.
Thanks, Donovan, for your support and suggestion.
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I went ahead and subscribed so that I might evaluate Logos Pro for my needs. Off the bat I knew that I already owned many of the resources that Pro will presently provide. I did not look up every resource, but I started with the commentaries that are new to me.
What I found interesting is the way that Logos is accounting for some items. While most are shown as temporary access, which is what I might have expected, others (2) are showing as a yearly rental with a purchase option. The rental being approx $33.50 per year while purchase at approx $99.99 each. So for bookkeeping purposes, I tally $67. Perhaps not many would look but I did. The other resources I reviewed all have a purchase value. Not many of my new rented resources - I had on the radar to purchase -nwith exception of Spurgeon. I knew this going in but now I get to survey these for myself.
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Thanks, Donovan, for your support and suggestion.
FWIW - I would suggest not making this shift in the model look like this is about AI. This is about cutting edge features, AI being one of them.
Also, if there was a way that subscribing over time gave you some residual value in the features towards a perpetual license, that would be awesome. I have been a Logos Now subscriber since day one and it would be cool that if I cancelled today that I at least took something with me.
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Thanks, Donovan, for your support and suggestion.
FWIW - I would suggest not making this shift in the model look like this is about AI. This is about cutting edge features, AI being one of them.
I agree. AI is a useful way to illustrate a broader point. I tried to make that point in this reply.
AI is a helpful example of why we need to evolve our monetization and licensing model, but it's not the only reason.
There are many other features that have ongoing expenses to build, maintain, and update. The entire web app, which lives on servers that we pay for, falls into this category—though its various features have a wide spectrum of expense. Anything that is cloud-backed in desktop and mobile rather than living locally on your device has ongoing expense to us, and selling a one-time license that never expires but leaves us on the hook to provide ongoing support just isn't a sustainable business model.
That's why we're moving away from it going forward (without abandoning our obligations to our existing customers!). The better we can align the value exchange, the healthier our business will be and the better we can serve our users for decades to come.
Also, if there was a way that subscribing over time gave you some residual value in the features towards a perpetual license, that would be awesome. I have been a Logos Now subscriber since day one and it would be cool that if I cancelled today that I at least took something with me.
We're thinking about ways to enable you to improve your fallback position.
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I'll give you one simple example. We typically deliver more than a dozen new datasets with each major release. And while each of these is useful to some of our users, it likely doesn't represent the most pressing needs for our collective user base. What we're doing this release is focusing on unifying and simplifying the vast and rich (yet fragmented and disparate) datasets we've built over the last two decades. This is going to unlock incredible value for new and existing customers alike, but it doesn't really afford us with much of a monetization opportunity. Subscription enables—even requires—this kind of critical work, and we're super excited for what subscription monetization of our software can mean for fulfilling our vision of making Logos the world's most powerful Bible study app that anyone can use and getting it into the hands of hundreds of millions of users globally.
Phil, this post should be pinned at the top. I am convinced that we need 'STEP CHANGES' to take Bible Software to the next level. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over, then expecting different results. I applaud Logos doing something different, particularly with a vision and passion to continue to bring innovation into the Bible Software space.
This alone makes it worth the $9.99/month. My view is make this your USP of your subscription. To the investors of your Pro and other levels, give them benefits and a place to feedback. This is what we need.
I very much second your sentiment, Donovan!
Dear Logos-team - just put it upfront:
"The subscription is to improve, correct, fix and update current datasets, book-indexes, crosslinks, features, spelling errors, curation and so on. (And you get credits for some cool new AI Features). Also if you want access or use the web-app or other cloud services we need to compensate the server costs. Also to be able to keep apps and desktop programs up-to-date we need to pay developers."This is my most pressing issue with Logos Bible Software. It is indeed a very important observation, that this feature overkill is not good nor sustainable nor wanted by the customers or the Logos company. As a software developer myself I can attest to the fact, that you need constant refactoring and optimization to avoid making the code so complex that it isn't possible to maintain in a reasonable time. And usually customers don't want to pay for that - I get it.
That being said, I think it is crucial for the global church of Christ to have easy, durable and affordable access to study his word deeper (Just think of your company claim). So the desktop versions with basic functions that work offline will become increasingly important. I think in some countries there will be more persecution and censorship of online/cloud services so this could be a future problem as well. And I think the most important contribution that Logos Bible Software can offer is to have clean and (mostly) error free resources and books that help the church grow in the understanding of Gods word. Therefore in my opinion the most sustainable move would be to offer an official Linux version to be fully independent of companies that want force you in the cloud (like MS) and block your access to your account if they find material that they deem inappropriate (already happened).
So going forward, what would be the best way? In my humble opinion (also as a user with a significant investment in library and features):1. Retain major base package (book/resource collections) releases and concerning the features: An optional fixed price for updates and improvements, maintenance and curation and for access to the web app for the next two years.
2. Still retain a basic feature set at the level of Logos 10 (or future packages) to buy and own (instead of new feature feasts - there can be of course incidental new features). .
3.The new subscription with 4 tiers:
I. Basic support and maintenance and access to newest improvements since last major base package release (~ Logos Now)
II. (Tier I) plus cloud & AI features plus Logos Connect perks (or similar) (~ Logos Pro)
III. (Tier I) plus all features (w/ AI) and Logos Connect perks (or similar)
IV. (Tier I) plus all features with AI and cloud and books (full SaaS)
It is not perfect but I think something like this - the combination of the best of the two worlds. And also the solvent brothers can fund the ongoing improvement and maintenance of the software and its resources by simultaneously getting some updates earlier and temporary cloud features and also retaining the basic software books and functions in case of cancelling the subscription or external interference. And all customers that bought a Feature Set and/or a limited maintenance subscription still can use it as is without all the newest improvements and the ability to get them via subscription or the next base package release.We need this to have the big treasure and gift of Gods word and knowledge about it for all Christians all over the world. And the resources that are prepared and curated are there and don't need too much preserving work. So we need to make sure the ongoing maintenance and improvements are financed but also enabling other customers with more conservative minds to fully own the software and resources even if they don't have the most up-to-date improvements and helpful cloud services.
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Thanks, Donovan, for your support and suggestion.
FWIW - I would suggest not making this shift in the model look like this is about AI. This is about cutting edge features, AI being one of them.
I agree. AI is a useful way to illustrate a broader point. I tried to make that point in this reply.
AI is a helpful example of why we need to evolve our monetization and licensing model, but it's not the only reason.
There are many other features that have ongoing expenses to build, maintain, and update. The entire web app, which lives on servers that we pay for, falls into this category—though its various features have a wide spectrum of expense. Anything that is cloud-backed in desktop and mobile rather than living locally on your device has ongoing expense to us, and selling a one-time license that never expires but leaves us on the hook to provide ongoing support just isn't a sustainable business model.
That's why we're moving away from it going forward (without abandoning our obligations to our existing customers!). The better we can align the value exchange, the healthier our business will be and the better we can serve our users for decades to come.
Also, if there was a way that subscribing over time gave you some residual value in the features towards a perpetual license, that would be awesome. I have been a Logos Now subscriber since day one and it would be cool that if I cancelled today that I at least took something with me.
We're thinking about ways to enable you to improve your fallback position.
I understand the costs to maintain the web app, especially since customers are accessing it on a remote server.
I never thought Logos should offer this for free, or possibly even with a base package purchase (except maybe the larger base packages). This was one reason I signed up for Logos Now early on since at the time, I needed the "insurance policy" about accessing my Logos library in a web browser in the event I had a major computer failure and didn't have time to re-download/index Logos on a new machine. Once you offered it free, that was one incentive for me to give up Now/Connect.
The way I've been looking at subscriptions is, except for essentials such as phone, internet, electricity, water, and insurance, subscriptions are a luxury, not a necessity. I can live with some if I can budget them and if they truly add value to my life, but I can also live without them if I need to walk away from them. This is especially true with app subscriptions.
With Bible study, it's different. Having access to a solid Bible study library is a necessity in my academic field, but I don't want to be handcuffed to a luxury (a subscription) to obtain a necessity (Bible study library).
With that said, there are some luxuries that could be offered as an option on top of the necessity/essentials (web app, AI, "cloud-backed features", etc) that I could decide if I'm willing to pay for the luxury or go without.
Here's to me what would be ideal and what I would go for:
1. Always offer perpetual access to the "offline" essentials so I can buy, own, and use a Bible study app that "just works", even offline. Those are upgrades I'd consider buying when you offer them, if you offer a decent range of features for the price. With Logos 10, I'm honestly not using most of the new features of it and probably wouldn't have upgraded, but I needed Apple Silicon Mac Support at the time, so I was willing to pay for the upgrade just to contribute to the cost of Apple Silicon Mac Support.
2. Offer a subscription "addon" for the constantly-maintained luxuries: the "cloud-backed features", AI, and I'd even be willing to give up perpetual access to the web app if you decided to put it behind a subscription. I could then decide if these additional luxuries are worth paying a monthly or annual subscription to access them, or I could rent them only when I need them and cancel when I don't, knowing the option is there if/when I need it, but I can cancel and give up those features without giving up access to the essential features. I'd think of it as a smaller subset of Connect (No Resources) that is just the features that require constant maintenance or leverages "the cloud".
3. Offer a subscription to features plus libraries for new customers who'd rather rent than own the software, similar to Microsoft 365 vs Microsoft Office Perpetual. They get all the features, the "cloud-backed features", AI, web app, and a collection of books.
This doesn't have to be complicated.
Dr. Nathan Parker
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Here's to me what would be ideal and what I would go for:
1. Always offer perpetual access to the "offline" essentials so I can buy, own, and use a Bible study app that "just works", even offline. Those are upgrades I'd consider buying when you offer them, if you offer a decent range of features for the price. With Logos 10, I'm honestly not using most of the new features of it and probably wouldn't have upgraded, but I needed Apple Silicon Mac Support at the time, so I was willing to pay for the upgrade just to contribute to the cost of Apple Silicon Mac Support.
2. Offer a subscription "addon" for the constantly-maintained luxuries: the "cloud-backed features", AI, and I'd even be willing to give up perpetual access to the web app if you decided to put it behind a subscription. I could then decide if these additional luxuries are worth paying a monthly or annual subscription to access them, or I could rent them only when I need them and cancel when I don't, knowing the option is there if/when I need it, but I can cancel and give up those features without giving up access to the essential features. I'd think of it as a smaller subset of Connect (No Resources) that is just the features that require constant maintenance or leverages "the cloud".
3. Offer a subscription to features plus libraries for new customers who'd rather rent than own the software, similar to Microsoft 365 vs Microsoft Office Perpetual. They get all the features, the "cloud-backed features", AI, web app, and a collection of books.
This doesn't have to be complicated.
Again, exactly this.
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I'm optimistic about this coming change. I like the idea of the AI integration and I really waiting for more details on what the different subscription tiers will offer and the cost before I make any serious comments or charges about the changes. To do so otherwise, in my opinion, shows a level of...mistrust or dishonesty when they have stated that not everything is set in stone and there are many things that they are figuring out. So, let's wait and see. You know what they say about assuming...
-Jon
Edit: I'm completely fine with speculation, but accusation is another thing.
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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Smart Search is a brand-new search engine built right into Logos. Just like the search engines you’re familiar with online, Smart Search doesn’t just search for the words in your query—it uses AI to search for articles that discuss the meaning of those words and then shows the most relevant place in that article in the search snippets. It makes searching your Logos library as easy as you’ve always hoped it would be.
Would it be possible to sort the Smart Search results by ownership status, first showing information from resources I own followed by information from resources I do not (yet) own?
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Firstly, I want to express my deep appreciation for the outstanding products Logos has provided. My daily use of the software, coupled with an investment exceeding $12,000 in my Logos library, underscores my extensive reliance on its resources.
One key aspect that sets Logos apart is the meticulous tagging of all books, particularly the Logos edition ones, creating a network of interconnected resources. The extensive tagging and datasets make these resources uniquely accessible, surpassing any other platform. That is why some books are available at lower prices elsewhere (Logos occasionally offers substantial discounts, attracting dedicated users like myself who find immense value in its capabilities).
What compelled me to invest $12,000 was the incredible utility of Logos resources due to their robust datasets and tagging. However, if the features, metadata, and essence that make Logos resources exceptional become exclusively available through a subscription model, the concept of ownership will become obsolete, significantly diminishing the value of my library over time—a prospect I find concerning.
The argument about AI's role doesn't sway me. While Faithlife may use AI in creating the datasets, the core features like the factbook, passage guide, notes, and clause search don't rely on AI but on datasets that can function offline. The breadth of possibilities with these datasets without AI involvement is substantial, making it perplexing why I should pay a monthly fee to maintain access to datasets I initially purchased.
Though I'm open to purchasing new features as Logos programmers innovate, the subscription model compromises ownership, undermining the very reason for investing in Logos editions—including the tools and instruments for effectively utilizing books and datasets.
If the argument is that a $10 monthly cost is reasonable, I respectfully disagree. When I upgraded from Logos 9 to Logos 10, the total cost for the features, including a base package with a full German feature set, was substantially less than $240 (which would be the extra low-cost subscription cost of two years of Logos Pro, as I understand it). Paying over $100 per year just to use books I already bought, and which are inherently pricier due to their Logos-specific design, seems excessive. That is why I am so concerned when the essential Logos functionalities are being moved behind a subscription model.
I sincerely hope that Logos edition books will still be valuable for customers who do not want to pay for other users' use of AI within Logos. If AI costs so much because of the external servers, as does the Logos Web App, why don't you offer these options as a subscription and sell the app improvements within base packages or separately, as before? I sincerely hope the subscription model will be nothing more than an option for people who are comfortable with subscriptions and will find good usage of AI within their bible study (I don't see any relevance of AI in my personal bible study and academia, where you can run into serious problems if you use AI for research).
I apologize if I misunderstood anything. I just wanted to share my concerns based on what I have read and heard so far in this chat. Thank you for your support and understanding.0 -
Paying over $100 per year just to use books I already bought, and which are inherently pricier due to their Logos-specific design, seems excessive.
You won't have to pay $100/year just to use books you already bought.
That is why I am so concerned when the essential Logos functionalities are being moved behind a subscription model.
What essential functionality is being moved behind a subscription model?
Please read Mark's comments about subscription in his original post:
Will I be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future? What about all the books I’ve already bought?
No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment. Your books are your books. Subscriptions are for those who want access to the latest improvements, which aim to help you uncover deeper insights in less time.
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Here's to me what would be ideal and what I would go for:
1. Always offer perpetual access to the "offline" essentials so I can buy, own, and use a Bible study app that "just works", even offline. Those are upgrades I'd consider buying when you offer them, if you offer a decent range of features for the price. With Logos 10, I'm honestly not using most of the new features of it and probably wouldn't have upgraded, but I needed Apple Silicon Mac Support at the time, so I was willing to pay for the upgrade just to contribute to the cost of Apple Silicon Mac Support.
2. Offer a subscription "addon" for the constantly-maintained luxuries: the "cloud-backed features", AI, and I'd even be willing to give up perpetual access to the web app if you decided to put it behind a subscription. I could then decide if these additional luxuries are worth paying a monthly or annual subscription to access them, or I could rent them only when I need them and cancel when I don't, knowing the option is there if/when I need it, but I can cancel and give up those features without giving up access to the essential features. I'd think of it as a smaller subset of Connect (No Resources) that is just the features that require constant maintenance or leverages "the cloud".
3. Offer a subscription to features plus libraries for new customers who'd rather rent than own the software, similar to Microsoft 365 vs Microsoft Office Perpetual. They get all the features, the "cloud-backed features", AI, web app, and a collection of books.
This doesn't have to be complicated.
Again, exactly this.
- We have the free engine (which has the "essentials", depending on how you define them) available for free download. This works offline.
- It sounds like you're describing Logos Pro, a subscription add-on of cloud-backed and AI-based features with discounted pricing for Full Feature Set users.
- This may be something we offer in the future. So far we've only launched one subscription. Stay tuned!
You're right: this doesn't have to be complicated. I don't think it is. Are we misunderstanding each other?
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You're right: this doesn't have to be complicated. I don't think it is. Are we misunderstanding each other?
We are not misunderstanding each other. The point of contention is #1: our fear is that in the future, perhaps all that will be available outside of subscription is the free engine/bug fixes; updated features will no longer be available for outright purchase. So far that fear has not been assuaged.
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You're right: this doesn't have to be complicated. I don't think it is. Are we misunderstanding each other?
We are not misunderstanding each other. The point of contention is #1: our fear is that in the future, perhaps all that will be available outside of subscription is the free engine/bug fixes; updated features will no longer be available for outright purchase. So far that fear has not been assuaged.
Thanks for clarifying; I see what you mean.
Selling updated features for a one-time purchase works well in an "Office 97" model: we sell you the features once, you install them (from CD) and you can use them as long as you can keep the software running. Eventually, you can decide to buy an upgrade to Office 2003 or wait for Office 2007: whatever fits your budget and matches your hardware upgrades, etc.
That's not a great fit for software to which we deliver free updates, new OS support, bug fixes, and improvements every six weeks. (And offer a web-based version, mobile apps, etc.)
Would you prefer to have a one-time purchase, fully-offline, no-online-services, no-included-updates model? (This is entirely hypothetical.) You could buy one version of the software and download it and install it as much as you want. When you want a newer version (perhaps because you upgrade your computer and the old software no longer installs or works, e.g., think of Libronix DLS), you can buy an upgrade to the current engine+features at retail price?
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(This post ended up be far longer than I had anticipated. If you read the whole thing, thank you. )
I've been using Logos for my own personal Bible study for a bit over 5 years. As part of my personal studies, I write a blog to help keep me focused. Until yesterday, the highest feature package I had was Logos 10 Starter, with a dozen Starter and Bronze Legacy Libraries. I've been wanting to dig deeper than I have been, but wasn't sure in what direction I should go.
Last night I decided to make a big commitment to Logos. I've been reading about the new AI features and subscriptions and decided to jump in, so I purchased Logos 10 Full Feature Upgrade and subscribed to Logos Pro. That accounts for over 1/3 of my dollars spent in Logos over the past 5 years.
The deciding factor for me was in a post by Mark Barnes from Logos:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/221543.aspx?PageIndex=1Specifically, this section:
"How much will early access to Logos Pro cost?
Customers who own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set or subscribe to Faithlife Connect (excluding Starter and Mobile) can purchase the subscription for just $9.99/month. When Logos Pro launches in the fall with the other tiers of subscription, you’ll have the option to maintain your subscription to Logos Pro or switch to one of the other subscription tiers at a continued large discount."
Since I really want to go deeper into my studies, and my blog, I suspected I'll eventually want a higher Logos feature set. The "continued large discount" comment got me, and I presume it was intended to. It seems Logos is still trying to figure out how the subscriptions will work, so maybe even they don't know what the pricing structure will be. If $10/month is a "large discount", $20-$25/month may be the target. Purchasing the Full Feature Upgrade now was quite expensive, but if it saves me $10-$15/month in the future, the Return On Investment will be 4-5 years; even saving only $5/month would be beneficial. I'm hoping to use Logos for decades, so this seemed a reasonable long-term investment. Even when the subscription price goes up (as it inevitably will), if Early Access subscribers stay $10 below the regular price it's a win. (I realize there are some significant assumptions here.)
I'm not a fan of subscriptions, but I do see their value. Even with older versions of Logo, my data syncs between devices, and that costs Logos money. My personal books are stored in the cloud, and that costs money (I wish they were available in mobile). Support costs money. Development costs money. Phil Gons from Logos wrote:
"Our historic model has led us to prioritize awesome new features over improving the core user experience and ensuring that the essentials are rock solid, because we need to charge for upgrades and people expect to get new features for their money. We've been slowly trying to shift from new feature creation to addressing core issues of usability and performance, but there remains a really difficult tension that subscription solves."
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221543/1289590.aspx#1289590There were some complaints in the thread that Logos had released some books in a series, but other books haven't been released. Phil stated subscriptions will help fill that gap. I'm hoping the last three books in the Lexham Geographic Commentary will be a high priority, because the series is currently in round three of March Matches (please vote for it!).
https://www.logos.com/product/186411
https://www.logos.com/march-matchups/bracketThere were also complaints from some people who already own some or most of the 400 books included with the subscription. The complaints centered around existing customers paying the same monthly subscription as new users for books they already have. I looked through the list (which I didn't see until after starting the subscription), and there were relatively few books that interested me. I'm still willing to pay $10/month even if I won't use most of the books. Please remember, $10/month is a "large discount", so if you sign up early you won't be paying the same amount as new users.
There have also been concerns about Logos significantly raising the price or going out of business, and I think both are legitimate concerns. Mark Barnes has stated:
"Subscriptions aren’t required to maintain access to your existing content. They’re for those who want access to new and improved features. With Logos, your content investment is always safe, and you’ll always be able to access it for free. The subscription benefits listed above for features don’t apply to books in the same way, so we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling perpetual licenses to books."
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221543/1289564.aspx#1289564People who don't want to pay for a subscription won't lose their (likely considerable) investment in Logos resources. I'm understanding this to mean there will always be a version of Logos that can be installed locally on a computer (possibly an incorrect assumption). Those users won't have access to cloud-based features (e. g. Artificial Intelligence now, maybe some other features in the future), but will still have access to resources. As far as I'm aware, Logos is the proverbial 800 pound gorilla in the Bible software arena, but there are competitors, so Logos has to make sure they don't alienate their customers to the point where they lose a significant number. That should keep the subscription prices somewhat reasonable.
What if Logos goes out of business? That certainly could happen, but I hope they would recognize bad decisions and correct them before losing to many customers. What if political pressure, persecution if you prefer, causes Logos to go out of business? Logos has stated "With Logos, your content investment is always safe, and you’ll always be able to access it for free." In the event of political pressure, Logos could release a stand-alone version that doesn't need Internet access. If the country outlaws Bible software, every other piece of Bible software could also be affected, so it's not a Logos-only problem.
I want to close by sharing another aspect of my decision to subscribe to Logos Pro. I'm not just looking at this from a financial perspective, but also from an eternal one. I make donations to charities because I believe in the work they're doing. Logos is a ministry (although for-prophet, as my credit card statements can attest to), so I'm kind of seeing this as a way support the ministry. Even if I personally don't get $10/month (plus inflation) value out of it, I know the money will be used to improve the feature set of the program and make more resources available, both thing which other Logos users will appreciate. If over the next 30-40 years that money helps even one person repent and come to know Jesus Christ, it will be money well spent. We don't know the long-term effects of the money we spend in Logos, but we can be certain God will use it for his glory one way or another.
I recommend listening to the song Thanks You by Ray Boltz:
https://youtu.be/d-3BJrG79IA?si=sZmam_szrACcQhBj0 -
Here's to me what would be ideal and what I would go for:
1. Always offer perpetual access to the "offline" essentials so I can buy, own, and use a Bible study app that "just works", even offline. Those are upgrades I'd consider buying when you offer them, if you offer a decent range of features for the price. With Logos 10, I'm honestly not using most of the new features of it and probably wouldn't have upgraded, but I needed Apple Silicon Mac Support at the time, so I was willing to pay for the upgrade just to contribute to the cost of Apple Silicon Mac Support.
2. Offer a subscription "addon" for the constantly-maintained luxuries: the "cloud-backed features", AI, and I'd even be willing to give up perpetual access to the web app if you decided to put it behind a subscription. I could then decide if these additional luxuries are worth paying a monthly or annual subscription to access them, or I could rent them only when I need them and cancel when I don't, knowing the option is there if/when I need it, but I can cancel and give up those features without giving up access to the essential features. I'd think of it as a smaller subset of Connect (No Resources) that is just the features that require constant maintenance or leverages "the cloud".
3. Offer a subscription to features plus libraries for new customers who'd rather rent than own the software, similar to Microsoft 365 vs Microsoft Office Perpetual. They get all the features, the "cloud-backed features", AI, web app, and a collection of books.
This doesn't have to be complicated.
Again, exactly this.
- We have the free engine (which has the "essentials", depending on how you define them) available for free download. This works offline.
- It sounds like you're describing Logos Pro, a subscription add-on of cloud-backed and AI-based features with discounted pricing for Full Feature Set users.
- This may be something we offer in the future. So far we've only launched one subscription. Stay tuned!
You're right: this doesn't have to be complicated. I don't think it is. Are we misunderstanding each other?
#1 would be the Logos Full Feature Set with all non-AI, non-"cloud-backed" features, no web app
#2 would be a smaller variant of "Logos Pro" with no books and only the AI, "cloud-backed" features, and web app, and anything else that requires ongoing "server" stuff as an addon for owners of the Full Feature Set
#3 would be Logos Pro and any new Logos tiers similar to what you did with Faithlife Connect
New customers may go with #3, most long-term customers would go with either both #1 and #2 or those who absolutely don't want a subscription and don't need AI or cloud go #1
Dr. Nathan Parker
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Would you prefer to have a one-time purchase, fully-offline, no-online-services, no-included-updates model? (This is entirely hypothetical.) You could buy one version of the software and download it and install it as much as you want. When you want a newer version (perhaps because you upgrade your computer and the old software no longer installs or works, e.g., think of Libronix DLS), you can buy an upgrade to the current engine+features at retail price?
I would prefer the existing arrangement continue, where I can outright buy features, not necessarily offline only--like the Bible browser--as part of the regular new version launches that occur every two years or whatever that may change to. (And to be honest, that is when Logos gets the most money from me.)
At the same time I have no objection to a subscription where that makes the most sense, like for the AI features that have ongoing, monthly costs. It's just that at present I have very little interest in them or anything else Logos Pro offers (I also have most of the books and don't care about dark mode). That could change at some point in the future, but I would prefer more options than just subscription. Besides a monthly payment I don't want to make, I don't like the uncertainty with them. Logos Now was great, then it changed to FaithLife Connect which did not meet my needs or interests at all, so I dropped out of that program and had to go back to buying features. I don't want to see that situation happen again.
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The "continued large discount" comment got me, and I presume it was intended to. It seems Logos is still trying to figure out how the subscriptions will work, so maybe even they don't know what the pricing structure will be. If $10/month is a "large discount", $20-$25/month may be the target.
Some additional thoughts from me:
I don't mind the idea of a subscription for advanced features if I can still access data, notes, sermons, etc. if I ever could not afford a subscription. The notion that $10 is discounted is disconcerting, as that is already on the high side of what I would be comfortable with financially. (Stereotypical pastor here!).
I paid ~$800 for the full feature set, and it is hard not to think that that was money wasted.
From a consumer's perspective, I used to spend money on a new base package every 2 years, and the books included in the package offset the cost of the features. Now I would pay $240 every 2 years and not get any books. I'm still struggling to see the benefit for me as a consumer. Maybe base packages will be reduced because we're no longer paying for features? I am genuinely curious if the cost for subscription + base package books will even out in the end, or if this is just a way of effectively raising prices.
I still think you should incorporate dynamic pricing into the subscription. That would lower the cost for those who have all the books and most of the features, and give an easier entry for new users who can more easily afford a subscription than a large upfront cost.
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I'm okay with the subscription for features. My question is, what do I have to look forward to every two years? Will you have new base packages of resources without feature sets? How does all of this affect base packages in the future?
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
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Hello
if I am eligible for early access to Logos Pro and join, will it replace my existing subscription to Logos Connect?
Thank you
Paul
Paul
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The "continued large discount" comment got me, and I presume it was intended to. It seems Logos is still trying to figure out how the subscriptions will work, so maybe even they don't know what the pricing structure will be. If $10/month is a "large discount", $20-$25/month may be the target.
Some additional thoughts from me:
I don't mind the idea of a subscription for advanced features if I can still access data, notes, sermons, etc. if I ever could not afford a subscription. The notion that $10 is discounted is disconcerting, as that is already on the high side of what I would be comfortable with financially. (Stereotypical pastor here!).
I paid ~$800 for the full feature set, and it is hard not to think that that was money wasted.
From a consumer's perspective, I used to spend money on a new base package every 2 years, and the books included in the package offset the cost of the features. Now I would pay $240 every 2 years and not get any books. I'm still struggling to see the benefit for me as a consumer. Maybe base packages will be reduced because we're no longer paying for features? I am genuinely curious if the cost for subscription + base package books will even out in the end, or if this is just a way of effectively raising prices.
I still think you should incorporate dynamic pricing into the subscription. That would lower the cost for those who have all the books and most of the features, and give an easier entry for new users who can more easily afford a subscription than a large upfront cost.
The Base Packages "Libraries"weren't reduced for me in Logos 7, even though I had Logos Now.
With Logos Now, my Platinum Library upgrade from Logos 6 to Logos 7 was $787.02, although my Logos 6 Platinum Base Package upgrade for books and features was $537.26 coming from Logos 5 Platinum. Logos 4 Platinum to Logos 5 Platinum was $670.13 for books and features.
With Logos 8, I finally saw a decrease to $207.94 mark for books only. Logos 9 Platinum was $215.67 for books only, Logos 10 Platinum $447.23 for books only.
I'm not expecting "Base Packages" or "Libraries" to get any cheaper with separating out the features going subscription only. Maybe Logos will prove me wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.
Dr. Nathan Parker
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Am I correct in concluding that there will essentially be two prices for the subscription model: One price for those who own the Logos 10 full feature set and one price for customers who do not? If this is the case, it is hard to see how Logos could continue to offer future feature set upgrades. Would every feature upgrade come with an additional discount to the subscription model? Or would every dollar spent on feature upgrades eventually be wasted if one were to later switch to the subscription model?
A potential solution would be to offer two subscription plans: one comprehensive subscription plan which includes resources and features in addition to a smaller subscription that only prices in charges for the use of AI and other cloud-based services that create significant costs for Logos. This would present three paths for customers:
1) They could buy the more expensive subscription and enjoy immediate access to basic resources as well as receive immediate updates to all features.2) They could buy the less expensive subscription to AI and cloud-based services and then purchase the feature sets at their own pace (obviously limited by the release dates - perhaps keeping to the every two years schedule that Logos users are accustomed to).
3) They could not subscribe at all and simply enjoy (and expand) their library, making use of whatever features they choose to purchase.
I understand that various options create complexities, but many companies have seen that users greatly appreciate options and have taken steps to cater to their users. Microsoft is one example of this. Although they would love for everyone to subscribe, they know that many users are simply unwilling. So they offer purchase options as well.0 -
Hi, is there a comparable Pro subscription for Verbum, and if not, will it be available during this early bird period?
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I would like to know more on how this new switch will benefit mobile only users. Does this mean that mobile will be on par with desktop. Will this new switch benefit Ipad users with Apple Silicone. Will features like passage Guide have more data sets and be on par with desktop. Can you please explain what this will benefit Mobile/Ipad users more.
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