Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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From the terms of logos (Logos - Terms of Service)
g. “Order” means any purchase of Logos Software, Content, or Subscriptions whether paid or unpaid.
Do You cancel my previous purchases of features so that I now have to pay for them monthly?
If that's the case I am deeply disappointed. And I really feel cheated.
- I have invested in the features.
- I have chosen to invest heavily in my library because of the features.
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Hi, is there a comparable Pro subscription for Verbum, and if not, will it be available during this early bird period?
I asked this question during the beta testing and was told that the Verbum team was not planning this intermediate product. However, if you sign up for the Logos version it will be recognized/update your Verbum application.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Do You cancel my previous purchases of features so that I now have to pay for them monthly?
No. Read Mark's Frequently asked questions.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I might need you to unpack this a bit for me. As I said previously, we will absolutely fulfill our side of the agreement and deliver FLC for as long as customers have paid for (or if for some reason we can't, offer a prorated refund for the unfulfilled portion of the term). But the very nature of a subscription offering is that it can change: it's features and benefits can change, it's price can change, or it can be discontinued entirely. None of these changes entails a breach of contract, so long as we (a) fulfill the agreement through the duration of the paid-for term and (b) give you plenty of time to decide whether you'd like to continue under the terms of a different offer and price.
Hi Phil, my complaint is that when the mess with LN happened and we were moved to FLC, similar concerns to today were being expressed: if the promises in LN were not honoured, should we (so the argument went back then) stick with FLC? In order to reassure us, assurances were given at that time that FLC would not be dropped in the future and that we could subscribe with confidence. Those assurances are now being (once again!) dropped. (And Logos already was retreating on its commitment by removing the 5% discount on packages.)
Technically, you are right. A business can suspend a subscription any time it chooses. However, the way I as a customer have been treated, first with LN, and now with FLC, is leaving a bitter taste. I subscribed in good faith - but maybe foolishly considering what happened with LN. Subconsciously, I guess I do expect more from Logos as a Christian business - I expect it to honour the spirit and principle of its agreements even if technically it doesn't have to.
As I outlined in my original post, what is currently being offered in LP is nowhere near what I have in FLC - and I would be paying more for LP. You say that Logos is looking at what other benefits can be offered to FLC users, but from experience Logos says things like that and then closer to the deadline makes an announcement which, if you still feel like it isn't equivalent, you will just have to lump it or leave it.
Once again, Logos is making an announcement without properly working out the details of what is being offered. The impacts the confidence of the user. As I said in another post, it would have been better if FLC users were being told now what they are getting in return that is a fair equivalent to our current contract.
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Once again, Logos is making an announcement without properly working out the details of what is being offered.
Remember that this is an intermediate/stop-gap program. The full subscription model will be fleshed out later - fall IIRC. Unless you really want the AI features NOW, simply wait until they are ready to announce/roll-out the full subscription model. Then you should have all the information needed for a rational decision.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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[quote]
Once again, Logos is making an announcement without properly working out the details of what is being offered. The impacts the confidence of the user. As I said in another post, it would have been better if FLC users were being told now what they are getting in return that is a fair equivalent to our current contract.
One thing to consider is that this is a pre release and the tone of feedback from the management is engagement, and an interest in crafting the final product with input from the users. You don’t have to go far in the Bible software space to find another forum where this will not occur.
The market is changing. Bible Software development is fairly stagnant and not sustainable in the same way it was in the era where a lot of Biblical resources were being digitized for the first time. I am not nuts about subscriptions, but then again, I now expect desktop, web and multiple handheld experiences. I can see how we are going to have to pay to keep what we have, and build on it.
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Yeah, we are 300+ posts on this thread and Logos staff are still reading and engaging with what we are saying, very patiently too I’ll add. Thanks for that. I suspect they knew they would be kicking a hornets nest, yet they still provided a context for us to share our frustrations and answer our questions etc. I appreciate that
Current MDiv student at Trinity Theological College - Perth, Western Australia
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One thing to consider is that this is a pre release and the tone of feedback from the management is engagement, and an interest in crafting the final product with input to the users. You don’t have to go far in the Bible software space to find another forum where this will not occur.
The market is changing. Bible Software development is fairly stagnant and not sustainable in the same way it was in the era where a lot of Biblical resources were being digitized for the first time. I am not nuts about subscriptions, but then again, I now expect desktop, web and multiple handheld experiences. I can see how we are going to have to pay to keep what we have, and build on it.
I agree with Donovan and his perspective on this. His perception of the market and direction things need to go, along with the excitement of seeing some new benefits that come with change is spot on. I also appreciate the constructive comments made regarding future options for customers that do not want a subscription. There are many good ideas here for Logos to consider as they develop the products to be introduced later in the year.
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I hope we as Christians are not characterized as kicking a hornets nest. Above all we should have grace.
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Hello everyone, Question: What will happen to our $9.99 price after the launch? Will we continue to be billed the $9.99 if we choose to stay, or will we have to pay more for what we have now? Is there a benefit to subscribing now versus when it is FULLY released?
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Sounds interesting. I meet the requirements for Pro Early Pricing and I love seeing the software working on my Mac, which helps in deciding if it is what I need as an ordinary Home Bible User. $10 a month to basically take a test drive of Ai Bible Software...maybe. AI Credits and when you run out? The Home User is not going to need this. At least those of us who use God's Word, a Concordance, a Dictionary (English, Greek, Hebrew) and a Commentary. I have $800 of books in my Library, most of which I don't use, already, sadly. Still undecided if it has any use for the average user who is sitting at home doing his Daily Devotional or Bible Reading/Study.
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Once again, Logos is making an announcement without properly working out the details of what is being offered.
Remember that this is an intermediate/stop-gap program. The full subscription model will be fleshed out later - fall IIRC. Unless you really want the AI features NOW, simply wait until they are ready to announce/roll-out the full subscription model. Then you should have all the information needed for a rational decision.
Not arguing to argue, but it's not hard for me to imagine September's world to be re-shuffled, as to what's purchasable/subscribable and at what level. I'm planning to pick up a few RI's I'm missing, and some commentaries for now, and then sit thru September.
FL's never been known for good execution, or ease of use.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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This is a tame convo. vs. some of those back in the day.
I hope we as Christians are not characterized as kicking a hornets nest. Above all we should have grace.
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Sounds interesting. I meet the requirements for Pro Early Pricing and I love seeing the software working on my Mac, which helps in deciding if it is what I need as an ordinary Home Bible User. $10 a month to basically take a test drive of Ai Bible Software...maybe. AI Credits and when you run out? The Home User is not going to need this. At least those of us who use God's Word, a Concordance, a Dictionary (English, Greek, Hebrew) and a Commentary. I have $800 of books in my Library, most of which I don't use, already, sadly. Still undecided if it has any use for the average user who is sitting at home doing his Daily Devotional or Bible Reading/Study.
Based on your description of how you study I do not think you will benefit from Logos Pro (Early Access). However, I have found that smart search has opened up my library more by presenting resources specific to my study that I would probably not have found. I think it works better the larger your library. I am not a pastor and am working my way slowly through Romans. I have found the smart search and summary features very helpful in asking questions using natural language and having AI find resources that may answer my questions. Since it is not an annual subscription, you can try for a month or two and see if it is helpful to you.
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FL's never been known for good execution, or ease of use.
In fairness, the last few versions of Logos (L10, L9...) rolled out fairly smoothly. But yes, this. (And in fairness, FL is also known for making things right after they mess up said rollouts.)
FL is making a major change in their relationship with their customers, many of whom have been with Logos a VERY long time. While much of what they are doing is quite reasonable (I don't want to subscribe but totally understand them needing to charge for AI features), there are a lot of unanswered questions. This rollout has been a long the lines of "Hey, we're doing this new thing, and not doing the old thing any more, and we're not entirely sure how that's going to work, but go ahead and subscribe because we think it's great!" They have gotten some pushback against that, most of which has been quite cordial and reasonable. They have explicitly said they want feedback, which is great, and I know they have thick enough skins to take some of the more pointed criticism.
On the other hand, I know some forumites (not DMB, whom I have quoted here) would gladly give FL $10 a month just because they're nice Christians, without anything at all in return, and smile while they're doing it. Not all of us are wired that way. Please let us give our feedback and get our questions answered without making it a pastoral issue.
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I'll pay $10/month just for the fun of getting answers to questions like "were there dinosaurs on the ark?" [:D]
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I'll pay $10/month just for the fun of getting answers to questions like "were there dinosaurs on the ark?"
Ha... you don't need AI for that just use Google.
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I already have the full feature set, so this question wouldn't specifically apply to me, but if someone wants to own all the features should they buy them now?
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Ha... you don't need AI for that just use Google.
But then I might miss some of the gems in my Adrian Rogers Sermon Archive :-)
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One thing I do appreciate about Logos is that they do listen to their customers. I do believe that the feedback given in this thread is being considered.
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I'll pay $10/month just for the fun of getting answers to questions like "were there dinosaurs on the ark?"
You just sealed the argument for why all of us need to subscribe to this. :-)
Dr. Nathan Parker
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One thing that has not been addressed is Mobile Ed. I know there is a subscription there, but will that be changing? I enjoy the courses quite a bit. They are quite costly however, and I would like a way to choose a subscription where I can pick the courses I want for a given time period.
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One thing that has not been addressed is Mobile Ed.
Welcome to the forums. Mobile Ed has not been addressed because it does not figure in this intermediate product. We'll have to wait until the Fall when the full subscription product lineup is rolled out. Given that the Mobile Ed department has been abolished except for finishing up products that were already filmed, I'm not comfortable making a guess as to what will be done.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.
I have no need for quick/early access to features. I am very happy with the current feature set in Logos 10 with a few caveats for improvements.
I don't need or want AI. I get tired of the online search engines that produce a bunch of results that barely fit my query.
I sure hope you will continue to provide a product that can work offline with the full feature set available today. I usually try to work online, but there are several circumstances where no Internet access is available or very slow.
I like your near-future plans as described in your message to offer additional capabilities for those that need/want them without taking away the current ability to have a perpetual license to the software as well as the books/resources.
Thank you for listening and asking for response.
Blessings,
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Logos is moving to subscription, as many others have. Just bite the bullet and do it
Please NOT!
Please always keep an option for perpetual license for base features (meaning all that is currently provided). I have no problem with adding features via a subscription plan if necessary. Subscriptions are not an option for those of us who are not pastors or otherwise have annual book allowances.
Thank you again for listening.
Clearly, there are wide ranging needs and it is a challenge to meet them all. I appreciate the effort to try.
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As a current connect subscriber with a medium-size library, I am great with a subscription option that includes all features and datasets. What I am not excited about is any resources being included in that subscription. These end up feeling like cell phone plans that include payment plans for the phone where over time you end up paying farm more for the phone than the actual cost. I just want all the features and let me continue to manage the resources that are useful to me.
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As someone who has been considering buying Logos for the first time (I actually had planned to make the purchase today) this thread has led me to decide not to go ahead. I have only just navigated the lybranthine array of packages to find what suited my use case (Academic) and now I find that no-one is clear about what the future of that entire system looks like. It's not at all clear to me whether I will required - after having bought it oughtright - to transfer to a subscription to retain it, or if not, how long what I've just bought will last since updates seem to be promised only to the subscription model. All assurances can only be short term if this becomes the fundamental business model of the company.
To be fair, I was never interested in spending tens of thousands on an electronic library I don't own (the Print Catalog feature appealed for this very reason, but it doesn't seem to be available to the Academic packages), which it has been stated here is the main profit driver, so I was never going to be a great fit. As a Bibleworks user I'm interested in studying the Bible deeply, not searching a library - I just want great tools. In addition, I have no interest whatsoever in AI and suspect the current trend to jam it into everything will run its course relatively soon.
It's clear that Logos themselves haven't made their mind up "We're still thinking through ...", so this is clearly not time to step into the ecosystem.
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Hi Gordon
It's not at all clear to me whether I will required - after having bought it oughtright - to transfer to a subscription to retain it, or if not, how long what I've just bought will last since updates seem to be promised only to the subscription model.
In Mark's post that started this thread he said:
Will I be forced to subscribe to Logos in the future? What about all the books I’ve already bought?
No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment. Your books are your books. Subscriptions are for those who want access to the latest improvements, which aim to help you uncover deeper insights in less time.
Does this clarify or does it still leave you with concerns?
Graham
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That's true. We could release some new features without a subscription at any pace we want (not including AI features, of course). But it's very hard to add a new feature and then deliver multiple improvements to it over several months without a subscription model.
Mark, I have always admired your ability to provide clarity to difficult subjects and that hasn't changed as I read through this thread; thank you!
While I don't like the subscription model, I do understand it is may be needed in order for a business to cover the costs of improvements and support. I hope you will find a way to keep a base feature set based on a perpetual license along with a subscription model for online only features and new features. Periodically, an upgrade to the base feature set could be offered that includes some of those new features previously available via the subscription that are deemed appropriate to the base feature set. I would imagine no feature improvements between those upgrades, but would hope that bugs would be addressed.
Thanks for listening,
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Subscriptions are not an option for those of us who are not pastors or otherwise have annual book allowances.
I appreciate this sentiment. This is where I am.
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