Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
-
Thanks for the clarifying answers. As far as I know, only some future features that will only be accessible via subscription will be AI-based. Looking at the suggestions website, there are a lot of optimizations based on the Logos resource data.
I like to compare Logos to buying a computer. I'm investing in a device that comes with an operating system, whereas with Logos I'm investing in books that come with the operating system. We already paid to unlock features in some base packages and feature upgrades, but then we could own them. Now, we would have to pay for the library and continue to pay for the operating system that we will never own. The argument that we can still have the base engine could mean anything. The whole point of buying Logos books is to use them in the Logos app with all the features available.
I'll never read all 8,000 books in my library, but I like having lots of books and will probably buy more. I'm a little weird that way, and I like Logos. However, I suspect there are many users with much larger libraries. Being forced to pay monthly and still not owning the "operating system" that runs your library feels wrong. I don't care about the AI; it would be great if it was the only thing that worked on a subscription basis, but that's probably a vain hope.
The prospect of being able to keep the Logos 10 features is somewhat reassuring, but knowing that it's a dead end and that the features (both AI and non-AI) won't be replenished later if they're not included in a subscription model worries me.
It's very nice of the Logos staff to have this conversation with their customers, for which I am very grateful! I hope that the concerns expressed by many will influence future models for delivering the new features.
0 -
3. Libraries: We plan to continue to offer libraries via our existing perpetual licensing model along with dynamic pricing. We haven't yet decided if we'll refresh them every two years, move to an annual release, or something else.
I may be in the minority, but this is my major concern. I want to make sure that there are still base package libraries available, as this is where I focus most of my attention.
Am I to understand that you are considering reconfiguring base packages of books yearly, or every two years as it is now? Can you expound on the current ideas, or maybe start a new thread if you are searching for ideas?
I am good with the $10 a month subscription, as I find it helpful for Adobe and Microsoft products. I don't like spending hundreds of dollars every year, or even two years, when I can just pay a much smaller amount every month knowing that I always have the newest software.
Disclaimer: I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication. If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.
0 -
I would say 1/2 a dozen searches in the all search and 2 or 3 summaries and may be another 6-8 sermon maker illustrations and questions. I am wondering if the error could be related to the test period coming to an end?
That's correct. It looks like you have the licenses from the beta, and you're not yet on the Logos Pro subscription. So this message is telling you that your access to these features has expired.
0 -
What if Logos deems the "notes" feature to be subscription-based? I have thousands of notes, and then they are all gone, suddenly – what a nightmare! Or what if my Logos 10 Features (Clause Search, Collections, Factbook, Passage Guide, etc.) don't work in ten years? I cannot then decide to purchase the new features that will last for the next 10 years. I may have my books to read (which you have promised in this thread), but I have downgraded from an amazing functionality in 2024 to printing and copy-pasting the pages of my Logos books to manually highlight my "purchased" resources on some printed paper because I didn't pay monthly for some highlighting feature (but maybe the printing feature will also be subscription based, then I cannot even print pages).
I think you might be misunderstanding what we're considering.
We're not planning to take anything away from existing customers: content or feature set licenses. Rather, we're considering making the incremental improvements available by subscription, while still providing bug fixes and essential maintenance to everyone.
Let's say you have the Logos 10 Full Feature Set and subscribe to Logos Pro and later decide to stop your subscription. You wouldn't lose anything included in the Logos 10 Full Feature Set or anything available in the free edition. You'd only lose the features that were licensed via the subscription.
I'm so sorry for my negativity. I'm not too fond of subscriptions in general, and maybe I overreact since Logos is so precious to me. Thank you for all your time and patience!
No need to apologize. It's a huge privilege to have such a passionate user base who loves our product and cares about our future. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with us.
0 -
If they can build a good subscription model, my guess is that the rising tide will lift all boats and even those who use the base software and packages will benefit. Win/win. I say bravo and I wish Logos well.
I also say bravo to Logos management for this type of user engagement and sensitivity to new users and old timers alike. This is not always common and it is how we future proof this cool tool.
Well said, Donovan. Thanks for reminding us all of the bright future we're working toward.
0 -
Thank you to everyone at Logos for taking the time to answer so many questions, comments, and concerns from your users. It requires real patience, and beyond being a good business practice, it's also an act of love. Thank you!
As I've followed this thread, I think we're reaching a common understanding between Logos and its customers. It would be a good idea to gradually wrap up this thread and provide a comprehensive summary of the key takeaways.
I completely support a wise and sustainable business model for Logos. I want to see you around for many years to come, and subscriptions are one way to achieve this. However, many Logos users have invested significant amounts of money compared to other subscription services (excluding professional tools like Adobe that target profit-generating users). Logos primarily serves pastors, teachers, volunteers, researchers, and professors – those working with tight budgets who won't necesserly increase their financial income from using Logos.
Because of this substantial investment by a group with generally limited resources, I believe a fallback license or lease-to-buy model (as others have suggested) would be a positive approach. It would address many concerns and help maintain a strong, loyal user base.
For example, let's say my current position (at a church, seminary, etc.) can provide funding for a Logos subscription. A cost of $10-$30 per month is a worthwhile investment. After 10 years, this represents an investment of around $1,200 (at the $10/month). If I move to a role where this funding is no longer available, that entire investment is lost, leaving this pastor/teacher/volunteers left with no value for his investment in Logos (and man, even dark mode will be gone! 😭 – more on this below:)
This is the primary reason I advocate for some form of fallback license or lease-to-buy option. Alternatively, offer dynamic pricing at the end of a subscription that allows the purchase of a perpetual license for specific features. This pricing could be based on previously obtained features and subscription length. The most concerning aspect of subscriptions is that you either have to pay always and forever, or you'll loose access to those features (that were actually built using your monthly subscription payments in the first place).
I understand the need for AI features to be subscription-based. However, feedback in this thread indicates this isn't universally needed or desired. Separating AI (online) features from other Logos (offline) features could be beneficial. Implement subscription tiers based on monthly AI usage quotas. And this separation would also address the issue of fair treatment for long-time users versus new subscribers.
Please note, all throughout this post I'm referring to Logos features and not purchased books/resources (which as you've reiterated earlier will remain unchanged). I pray for you guys (and I actually do mean it, I do pray for you), that you will have wisdom how to move forward with the product – that the business is sustainable and profitable so it can grow, and that as many people as possible can use Logos for the growth of the Kingdom.
Just my two cents into this already too long discussion
PS: About that dark mode though (and I'm going to be a little sarcastic here, forgive me 😀) – it made me really sad and confused that this feature would require a paid subscription!. Come on, seriously? A finally functional DARK MODE?! Glad you're not charging for access to be able to use copy/paste 😮💨 (And on a more serious note now: Putting these kinds of "features" behind a paywall can make some people feel uneasy about the promise to keep the application/engine itself freely available. Right now it's dark mode, what can come next with this logic? Back in the day of moving to Retina / HiDPI resolutions – would that require a subscription as well, so we can have crisp interface?)
PS2: Given the current interest in AI, I believe increased transparency surrounding Logos' use of AI technology would be beneficial. This could include details about the specific AI services employed, the types of prompts used, and any potential regional variations in AI functionality (e.g., some LLMs have features are disabled in the EU but available in US). In these early stages of AI development and use, I believe transparency is both wise and valuable. (Especially when you pay for it.)
0 -
My wild guess is that the max subscription price would likely be at least $250/mo, and maybe as high as $400-500/mo, for the “Ultimate” package (if they offer that) - or for multiple-tradition Portfolio levels.
With a software subscription, we can continue to deliver improvements to the software, and those continual improvements justify (for many, at least) their continued investment.
Books aren't continually improved, so subscription is more difficult to justify unless you go for the Spotify or Netflix model, where the attraction of the subscription is a huge choice for a low monthly fee. But that's not how most publishers want to operate, and not even Amazon has been able to change that.
0 -
About that dark mode though (and I'm going to be a little sarcastic here, forgive me 😀) – it made me really sad and confused that this feature would require a paid subscription!. Come on, seriously? A finally functional DARK MODE?!
When the first iteration of dark mode was released in Logos 9, only people who purchased the software could use it. Six months after the launch of Logos 9, that feature was also added to the free edition so everyone could benefit. It's more than possible we'll do something similar this time.
At the same time, in terms of how Logos is built, you should think of it as a kind of "operating system," with each tool in Logos being a separate "app." So making these dark mode changes meant changing the code of several dozen "apps." In the majority of cases, it only took a day or two to make the necessary changes, but the sheer number of tools in Logos meant it was a surprisingly significant investment – and as such, we feel it's appropriate for those who funded that investment through their subscriptions to get the benefit, or at least get early access.
0 -
3. Libraries: We plan to continue to offer libraries via our existing perpetual licensing model along with dynamic pricing. We haven't yet decided if we'll refresh them every two years, move to an annual release, or something else.
I may be in the minority, but this is my major concern. I want to make sure that there are still base package libraries available, as this is where I focus most of my attention.
Am I to understand that you are considering reconfiguring base packages of books yearly, or every two years as it is now? Can you expound on the current ideas, or maybe start a new thread if you are searching for ideas?
There definitely will still be numerous multi-level tracks of libraries available. But we want to simplify the buying process for the new customer.
This is still an active area of discussion, but here's what might change:
- The organizing principle for these libraries (role/function, denomination, theological perspective, interest area)
- How often we update them (e.g., our general libraries annually and the specialist libraries as needed)
- How we expose them in the new customer buying process to ensure we don't overwhelm people
These libraries will still be perpetually licensed with dynamic pricing.
TBD on whether subscribers enjoy special benefits such as early access, an extra discount, etc.
0 -
At the same time, in terms of how Logos is built, you should think of It as a kind of "operating system," with each tool in Logos being a separate "app." So making these dark mode changes meant changing the code of several dozen "apps."
That's a helpful explanation, Mark.
Thank you! 0 -
Mark and Phil -
Thank you for your answers, some of which you have had to repeat more than a couple of times. You have shown incredible patience. My question, and I hope I didn't miss this, as there are so many posts:
I have been a Faithlife Connect subscriber for several years. I also added Logos Pro last week and love the new features. My Connect subscription renews in August. What is your recommendation about renewing?
I assume the final version of Logos Pro (or whatever the final name is) will not be ready by August. I will subscribe to the new program, but not sure if I should renew Connect and wait or stay on it.
I hope that all make sense.iMac (2019 model), 3Ghz 6 Core Intel i5, 16gb Ram, Radeon Pro Graphics. 500GB SSD.
0 -
My Connect subscription renews in August. What is your recommendation about renewing?
We're actively working on a subscription unification and migration plan, and we should have that finished and communicated with plenty of time for you to make a decision. I'd sit tight for now, and you can decide the right path forward after we share our plans.
0 -
I hope the plans are reasonable. Some people are on limited income. I pay out $100 for Logos Connect now. I know this will go away but for some anymore would be difficult. I get Microsoft Office for $99,
0 -
Having used Logos Pro for a week now, I have a few observations regarding the new illustrations feature. Embedding it into the sermon builder is unfortunate. I have tried to use Sermon Builder, but it is too restrictive and has limited printing capabilities. I have returned to my word processor. I am always searching for illustrations, but the suggested ones in the new feature are bad. The quote feature is very good but again it is only available in the sermon builder. Could both the illustrations and quote feature be built into the search window? If the illustrations feature could produce usable material, it would certainly make the subscription somewhat palatable.
0 -
Okay ... my head is spinning after following this thread for what seems like an eternity. At the risk of repeating the obvious or what might have been previously said, here is my two cents worth:
Why not model the subscription plan more like an auto lease?
If one wants to have the latest and greatest, whizz-bang features, then sign the lease/subscription and start enjoying them immediately. Everyone else must wait. The lease/subscription for, say, the 2024 whizz-bangs will run for, say, four years at which time the lessee has the choice of either dropping the lease/subscr entirely, extending the lease/subscr, or doing a buy-out. If the lessee opts to drop the lease/subscr, his payments stop and he loses all access to the 2024 whizz-bangs. If the lessee opts to extend the lease/subscr, the lease/subscr payments are renegotiated and he has uninterrupted access to the 2024 whizz-bangs. If the lessee opts for the buy-out, he pays his money and the 2024 whizz-bang licenses transfer to perpetual.
Furthermore, after the first four lease/subscr years, the whizz-bangs would then be offered for sale to any Logos user as a perpetual license.
Hopefully, this all makes sense. It would seem to have the potential to make everyone happy.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
0 -
My Connect subscription renews in August. What is your recommendation about renewing?
We're actively working on a subscription unification and migration plan, and we should have that finished and communicated with plenty of time for you to make a decision. I'd sit tight for now, and you can decide the right path forward after we share our plans.
Thank you, Phil. And again - I appreciate your attention to all these questions. It must be exhausting.
iMac (2019 model), 3Ghz 6 Core Intel i5, 16gb Ram, Radeon Pro Graphics. 500GB SSD.
0 -
Thank you for taking the time to respond. Much much appreciated.
1Cor10 31">So how about tiered pricing with each tier allowing a certain number of queries. Let's say there are 3 tiers: $5, $10, $15/month. Let's say a customer chose the $10/month tier. You can start a counter with $10 at the beginning of the month. After each use of feature, that counter can keep dropping down. Once the counter hits $0, the customer has to buy more or else have to wait for the next month to use those features. (You can allow for carryover of leftover $ to the next month if you so desire, but you don't need to. It can be a use-it-or-lose-it feature.)
That's pretty close to what we're planning (without the carry forward).
An extra wrinkle here…You want customers to choose the highest tier instead of choosing the lowest tier and then reup once they run out of money for that month. To accomplish that, you need to incentivize people to straightaway choose the higher tier. For example if the $5 tier allows X number of searches, then the $10 tier should allow more than 2X searches. Otherwise, people will always choose the lowest tier, which is something you don’t want. Should it be 2.1X or 2.5X or…you all have to decide based on what you think will incentivize people to choose higher tiers.
1Cor10 31">Splunk, a data analytics firm, used to charge firm differential pricing based on how much data they wanted to be analyzed. I think this principle applies to the AI solutions you are offering. Since AI search cost increases in the size of our libraries, how about tiered pricing based on size of our libraries, with higher price being charged for bigger libraries. You can think of this as one type of dynamic pricing. So each person sees a different price depending on size of their library in terms of GB (not number of resources). You can still have 3 tiers as above, but the price of the 3 tiers will be based on size of libraries. So for one person, the 3 tiers offered could be $5, $10, $15. The same 3 tiers for a person with the double the library size would $10, $20, $30.
We've discussed something like this for a future v2 of our print library features, where different tiers would allow a different number of print books to be added to your library. A while back someone suggested pricing the software based on the number of books in your Logos (not print) library, but we've not explored that further. We don't want to create a negative incentive to growing your library. The credits for cloud/AI features will likely give us what we need to tier the value delivery in a way that corresponds to the subscription price.
Thanks for the suggestions!
You seem worried because you say “We don't want to create a negative incentive to growing your library.” I want to ease your worries. There are two type of people you are thinking about, I think.
(i) Those who already have large libraries. It seems fair that people like me who have bigger libraries (relative to a layman) are charged higher price because we impose higher costs on you. The fact that someone has spent a lot of $ on the Logos platform already reveals the type of person they are. They are happy to spend money because they see value. So you should tap into them by charging more because it is costly to serve them using AI tools.
(ii) Those who have small libraries who want to grow them. Here, you concern has some merit. But let me turn this around. If your AI tools are great, then I have all the incentive to grow my library bcos AI can identify the right content from the right resource. Right now, we have to do this manually based on recommendation etc. and, therefore, some people buy individual resources that they know they will use instead of buying your base packages. But if AI can do a great job of screening for me, then I will buy more base packages.
Just something to noodle over.
Thanks once again for your patience in responding to all the queries.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
0 -
A while back someone suggested pricing the software based on the number of books in your Logos (not print) library, but we've not explored that further. We don't want to create a negative incentive to growing your library.
As somebody with 20,000 resources, being charged more because I have spent a fortune on Logos already would really irritate me. I think that's dumb, and directly opposes the spirit of the dynamic pricing promise Logos has long extended.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
0 -
A while back someone suggested pricing the software based on the number of books in your Logos (not print) library, but we've not explored that further. We don't want to create a negative incentive to growing your library.
As somebody with 20,000 resources, being charged more because I have spent a fortune on Logos already would really irritate me. I think that's dumb, and directly opposes the spirit of the dynamic pricing promise Logos has long extended.
Sorry my friend...But if your AI query costs more to run for Logos because you have a big library, don't you think you should be charged more (I have close to 10K resources)?
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
0 -
I agree 100% bolded underlined all caps italics in red with Justin Gatlin’s statement. I would be more than “irritated“ if Logos charged me more because my library is larger.
I’ve spent $28,000 for 14k titles *** over the course of three decades ***, while I was employed. I’m now retired, living solely on SS (no pension, no residual investment income).My logos library is *the* most expensive thing I own (more than my car, and I rent an apartment. I suspect that many retired pastors and missionaries are in a similar situation.
Don’t get me wrong - I am happy and *very* content with what the Lord has given me. I just want to point out that owning a lot of titles does NOT mean that the customer can afford to pay a lot more than others would.
I wouldn’t just be irritated if L charged me more - I’d feel betrayed.
Please, PLEASE Logos - whatever you do - make it possible for people to get perpetual licenses to new features that do not *require* cloud access or AI. Please allow us to be able to run offline.
for some of us, even the cost of internet is a challenge to pay.=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Sorry my friend...But if your AI query costs more to run for Logos because you have a big library, don't you think you should be charged more (I have close to 10K resources)?
I foresee a possible scenario where users with large libraries use more credits per search, but that dynamic should not be too extreme, nor should it be reflected (imho) in the monthly subscription fee. That would be a clumsy way of organizing it, as the monthly fees would constantly be changing as the size of libraries grow. It would also clearly punish users in proportion to the extent that they have invested in Logos. This seems very counterintuitive. To adjust credit usage slightly per usage based on the size of a users library, on the other hand, seems both reasonable and likely.
0 -
I just want to point out that owning a lot of titles does NOT mean that the customer can afford to pay a lot more than others would.
I agree.
The equation has changed. If the new AI tools cost Logos more to run if your library is bigger, shouldn't you be charged more? Of course, Logos should give you an option of not buying these features if you don't want these tools
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
0 -
Sorry my friend...But if your AI query costs more to run for Logos because you have a big library, don't you think you should be charged more (I have close to 10K resources)?
Based on what Mark said, it doesn't cost them more.
In Smart Search, we perform a very loose search without AI. That finds 50 articles that roughly match your query. We then use AI to identify a snippet from each article that most closely matches your query. We don't rewrite any text; we only identify the most relevant existing text in the book. Once we have these snippets, we use AI to re-order them to put the most relevant ones at the top.
They are still using a traditional search and only operating AI to order and display the results, so they are running it on 50 results regardless. Since an all search goes through the whole Logos catalog, it doesn't seem like there is much incremental cost there. If future AI features are library-dependent, instead of charging more for the subscription outright, I would be a lot happier with the AI credits being based on actual server time. So if it takes twice as long to run my search, then I use twice as many credits and so I might end up needing to upgrade and pay more. But that leaves the initiative on my end, instead of making me wonder what the subscription cost of getting a free book of the month or a collection with a lot of cheap public domain books will be.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
0 -
1Cor10 31">Sorry my friend...But if your AI query costs more to run for Logos because you have a big library, don't you think you should be charged more (I have close to 10K resources)?
I foresee a possible scenario where users with large libraries use more credits per search, but that dynamic should not be too extreme, nor should it be reflected (imho) in the monthly subscription fee. That would be a clumsy way of organizing it, as the monthly fees would constantly be changing as the size of libraries grow. It would also clearly punish users in proportion to the extent that they have invested in Logos. This seems very counterintuitive. To adjust credit usage slightly per usage based on the size of a users library, on the other hand, seems both reasonable and likely.
How is this "punishment"? You are imposing a cost on Logos. If you want the tools, you have to pay up. If you don't want the tools, don't subscribe to AI tools. You can't have the cake and eat it too!
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
0 -
To 1 Cor 10;31 (whoever that is) …
I’ve tested the AI features and am NOT impressed (I’ll save that info for another post elsewhere).
The MAIN concern I have, which it appears that Logos is waffling on undecided, is that NON-AI features - ones that COULD be run on local PC offline, will be tied to a monthly subscription that offers no option (every year or two) to incorporate those non-AI, offline-able features into my perpetual license.
THAT has absolutely nothing to do with the size of my library.=============
Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
I agree with you. To be able to buy and own would better. Leave the AI for those who want it and need it.
0 -
1Cor10 31">
Sorry my friend...But if your AI query costs more to run for Logos because you have a big library, don't you think you should be charged more (I have close to 10K resources)?
Based on what Mark said, it doesn't cost them more.
In Smart Search, we perform a very loose search without AI. That finds 50 articles that roughly match your query. We then use AI to identify a snippet from each article that most closely matches your query. We don't rewrite any text; we only identify the most relevant existing text in the book. Once we have these snippets, we use AI to re-order them to put the most relevant ones at the top.
They are still using a traditional search and only operating AI to order and display the results, so they are running it on 50 results regardless. Since an all search goes through the whole Logos catalog, it doesn't seem like there is much incremental cost there. If future AI features are library-dependent, instead of charging more for the subscription outright, I would be a lot happier with the AI credits being based on actual server time. So if it takes twice as long to run my search, then I use twice as many credits and so I might end up needing to upgrade and pay more. But that leaves the initiative on my end, instead of making me wonder what the subscription cost of getting a free book of the month or a collection with a lot of cheap public domain books will be.
Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't catch this. If the cost to Logos doesn't depend on the size of our library, then the pricing should be the same for everyone.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
0 -
To 1 Cor 10;31 (whoever that is) …
I’ve tested the AI features and am NOT impressed (I’ll save that info for another post elsewhere).
The MAIN concern I have, which it appears that Logos is waffling on undecided, is that NON-AI features - ones that COULD be run on local PC offline, will be tied to a monthly subscription that offers no option (every year or two) to incorporate those non-AI, offline-able features into my perpetual license.
THAT has absolutely nothing to do with the size of my library.From whomever that is...
I don't think that Logos will charge based on size of your library when their cost of offering the product is not related to the size of your library. That would reflect a lack of integrity. And I think people at the top have a lot of integrity.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God
0 -
I am a new user of Logos with version 10. I have invested heavily into the books and system. I understand the need to offer a subscription model due to finances. I would say that whatever you do, make sure that new users don't feel like we paid a lot of money for a set of features that is now easily obtained by a subscription. How many years could I have bought with my packages if I had just waited for the subscription model? I know I don't need to buy the new features, but it still stings if all that money was unnecessary to get the same thing for $10/month now.
0 -
A few years ago, the government told us "If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor." I hope this doesn't turn out to be the same kind of promise.
0
