Some subscription questions addressed

Today I watched the webinar "Discover More with Logos: Feature Updates". Mark Barnes addressed some questions about subscriptions starting about 42:30, but the whole webinar is worth watching.

https://www.bigmarker.com/logos/Discover-More-with-Logos-Feature-Updates-Webinar-04c889f1904d25103b7d3a11

My takeaways:

1. Subscriptions will allow Faithlife to release new features to subscribers faster, rather than the historical 2 year release cycle.

2. Investments in books are safe. You won't need a subscription to access books you've purchased.

3. You won't lose access to your existing feature sets even without a subscription.

4. Logos will continue selling books.

5. Software updates will be available even to people who don't subscribe.

6. Faithlife is still considering options to allow non-subscribers to get some new features. The answer was vague, but he acknowledged there have been discussions about it.

I recommend watching the whole webinar and posting your thoughts on the Faithlife forums and/or Facebook groups. I'm hoping the more people that comment on a topic, the more seriously Faithlife will take it. I would put comments about subscriptions and AI in the General forum:

https://community.logos.com/forums/77.aspx

Suggestions for new features or improving existing features should go into the Feedback site. Before posting a new item, please search the site for similar requests and vote for them.

https://feedback.logos.com/

Please comment frequently!

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Comments

Frank Sauer

3. You won't lose access to your existing feature sets even without a subscription.

Unfortunately history and comments from Mark himself have contradicated this statement.... There has been no further comment after the contradiction and Customer Service/Support are unsure of the answer themselves...

See Mark's own response

If we already paid for a feature and it gets improvements - will the updated feature only be available to those who subscribe? If so, doesn't that punish early adopters as you mentioned???

If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.

I think it would punish early adopters if we sold a new feature, and then six or twelve weeks later offered a better version.

So, this may be a very misleading and continued statement by Mark that has not always been true - there are features paid for that no longer exist or had to be paid for to continue access to, after being updated....

DAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1294693#Comment_1294693

Once I showed a FL employee some examples of the contradiction, he stopped replying. There is definitely something misleading somewhere.

DAL

Mark

1. Subscriptions will allow Faithlife to release new features to subscribers faster, rather than the historical 2 year release cycle.

As already been pointed out on other threads, Faithlife Connect Subscription was supposed to give feature updates immediately without waiting 2 years. That promise was not kept. So... for me, the vagueness is actually clarity. I am waiting to see what they do in the Fall. But I am no longer optimistic.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1294739#Comment_1294739

I am still waiting on the full functionality promised for some things in Logos 10. I realize that Logos has a very full plate. I am willing to cut them the slack on this as it's more whip cream than nutrition. I see them working on it in chunks.

I would chalk some of these issues up to overly optimistic people who don't remember all of their commitments. I've been there. So I won't stomp my feet insisting on what I know is much too easy to fall into over time.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1294700#Comment_1294700

Once I showed a FL employee some examples of the contradiction, he stopped replying. There is definitely something misleading somewhere.

DAL

And this is a MAJOR problem.... They also have shown no interest in addressing the contradictions, nor contacting those of us who have multiple requests for contact to discuss the contradictions....

David Thomas

I fully understand that some users do not like the subscription model and are looking for ways to highlight their discontent.

RE: features that one OWNS, compared to Features accessed through subscription and future improvements to features. I realize any analogy is going to be incomplete, but analogy can bring clarity.

I have an aftermarket Radio in my 2006 truck that includes GPS Navigation [a feature]. I bought and paid for a set of maps that are downloaded to the device which displays my location as determined by the Satellites and overlays a visual representation of the streets and businesses that were the most current when I purchased the mapset. My GPS still functions as designed when purchased and installed in 2013 and the latest mapset I was able to install is from 2021. My feature is still completely operational according to 2021 standards.

Since then new roads have been built, businesses have opened and others have closed. The 2024 mapset requires the GPS software to access code that was not available in 2021. Garmin offers a subscription to both new maps and new code, but the new maps will only work with the new code and if my device cannot support the new code, then I won't be able to display the new gas station that was built at the corner of 1st and Main. My device still shows the gas station that once existed (in 2021) at 1st and Broadway. The newer maps require the code to interpret a database of businesses that is maintained by the city of Metropolis.

The Garmin subscription permits updates to my radio that permits it to interpret the new database that Metropolis provides, but my 2021 mapset allows me to see where I am in relationship to the businesses that were present in 2021. I still OWN and have access to the feature of GPS Navigation, but eventually the 2021 state of that feature will be useless as other businesses open and close and I am trying to find gasoline in 2030

My 2023 version of Logos will still provide the 2023 capabilities with my 2023 resources. Subscription will permit my 2025 version of Logos to perform the 2025 capabilities with resources that will be developed AFTER 2023.

I own (a license to read) all the books that I have purchased and that license will not be rescinded ("forever"). However, no promise has been made (or could be made) that would guarantee my books on 5.25" floppies can be installed and operational on a 2030 computer thas does not have any disk drive.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1294783#Comment_1294783

David, time for a new truck. Granted, our Eurovan camper has got you beat by 5 years.

But your anology has only one minor flaw. You know the Garmin rules. And the unsettled Logosians know Faithlife has a bad habit of wildly changing direction (just recently, as a matter of fact, dumped a bunch of customers and staff, and going thru 3 CEOs in short order). And then letting the customers imagine the worst ... for 6 months.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1294783#Comment_1294783

I fully understand that some users do not like the subscription model and are looking for ways to highlight their discontent.

RE: features that one OWNS, compared to Features accessed through subscription and future improvements to features. I realize any analogy is going to be incomplete, but analogy can bring clarity.

I have an aftermarket Radio in my 2006 truck that includes GPS Navigation [a feature]. I bought and paid for a set of maps that are downloaded to the device which displays my location as determined by the Satellites and overlays a visual representation of the streets and businesses that were the most current when I purchased the mapset. My GPS still functions as designed when purchased and installed in 2013 and the latest mapset I was able to install is from 2021. My feature is still completely operational according to 2021 standards.

Since then new roads have been built, businesses have opened and others have closed. The 2024 mapset requires the GPS software to access code that was not available in 2021. Garmin offers a subscription to both new maps and new code, but the new maps will only work with the new code and if my device cannot support the new code, then I won't be able to display the new gas station that was built at the corner of 1st and Main. My device still shows the gas station that once existed (in 2021) at 1st and Broadway. The newer maps require the code to interpret a database of businesses that is maintained by the city of Metropolis.

The Garmin subscription permits updates to my radio that permits it to interpret the new database that Metropolis provides, but my 2021 mapset allows me to see where I am in relationship to the businesses that were present in 2021. I still OWN and have access to the feature of GPS Navigation, but eventually the 2021 state of that feature will be useless as other businesses open and close and I am trying to find gasoline in 2030

My 2023 version of Logos will still provide the 2023 capabilities with my 2023 resources. Subscription will permit my 2025 version of Logos to perform the 2025 capabilities with resources that will be developed AFTER 2023.

I own (a license to read) all the books that I have purchased and that license will not be rescinded ("forever"). However, no promise has been made (or could be made) that would guarantee my books on 5.25" floppies can be installed and operational on a 2030 computer thas does not have any disk drive.

I can use your analogy with a quick example of the radio manufacturer who sold you the feature (GPS Navigation) as part of the "Engine" that is the head unit updating the firmware. That update now requires a subscription to even use the Navigation feature because it was improved and had a few years of great value ... So you have your maps, the feature is there, but you can't get directions without paying monthly....

Or they deprecate Navigation and rename it Directions and you can only use that feature with a subscription.... So you still have the engine and they'll keep the firmware up to date, but one by one the features are updated and behind a pay wall...

Mike Childs

I do not want or need another subscription in my life. Therefore, I would never buy a Logos subscription.

However, I recognize that subscription is the way that software is going. It is how Microsoft Office now works. It is the wave of the future.

There is no point in me getting angry about it. I am happy with the Logos Software I have. I will continue to use Logos, as I have since the early 1990's, as my primary Bible study / sermon prep tool. I will continue to buy books and resources from Logos, so long as they work with the Logos version software that I have. I just will not update my Logos software if a subscription is required to do so. There are few of newer features that I care for anyway.

But I still love Logos Bible software. I wish them well.

The only question for Logos is will this subscription plan work as well for them as it has for software like Microsoft Office. The customer base for Logos Bible software is much smaller than for Microsoft Word, etc. It is the fierce loyalty of Logos' customer base that has enable Logos to survive when so many Bible software companies have failed. If enough Logos customers are offended by the subscription model, this could be a serious miscalculation by Logos.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1294790#Comment_1294790

I do not want or need another subscription in my life. Therefore, I would never buy a Logos subscription.

However, I recognize that subscription is the way that software is going. It is how Microsoft Office now works. It is the wave of the future.

There is no point in me getting angry about it. I am happy with the Logos Software I have. I will continue to use Logos, as I have since the early 1990's, as my primary Bible study / sermon prep tool. I will continue to buy books and resources from Logos, so long as they work with the Logos version software that I have. I just will not update my Logos software if a subscription is required to do so. There are few of newer features that I care for anyway.

But I still love Logos Bible software. I wish them well.

The only question for Logos is will this subscription plan work as well for them as it has for software like Microsoft Office. The customer base for Logos Bible software is much smaller than for Microsoft Word, etc. It is the fierce loyalty of Logos' customer base that has enable Logos to survive when so many Bible software companies have failed. If enough Logos customers are offended by the subscription model, this could be a serious miscalculation by Logos.

Microsoft Office can be purchased and also Microsoft never promised me access to my paid for features forever when I purchased it. Logos does and in the past not honored it and based on Mark's response to my question, will continue to not honor it with the possibility of the improved features locked behind a subscription only model. So we will be stuck on an old engine that eventually will not work on a new OS that would lead to forced subscription to access our now improved features, unless the purchase option remains.

Dale E Heath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1294790#Comment_1294790

I do not want or need another subscription in my life. Therefore, I would never buy a Logos subscription.

However, I recognize that subscription is the way that software is going. It is how Microsoft Office now works. It is the wave of the future.

There is no point in me getting angry about it. I am happy with the Logos Software I have. I will continue to use Logos, as I have since the early 1990's, as my primary Bible study / sermon prep tool. I will continue to buy books and resources from Logos, so long as they work with the Logos version software that I have. I just will not update my Logos software if a subscription is required to do so. There are few of newer features that I care for anyway.

But I still love Logos Bible software. I wish them well.

The only question for Logos is will this subscription plan work as well for them as it has for software like Microsoft Office. The customer base for Logos Bible software is much smaller than for Microsoft Word, etc. It is the fierce loyalty of Logos' customer base that has enable Logos to survive when so many Bible software companies have failed. If enough Logos customers are offended by the subscription model, this could be a serious miscalculation by Logos.

[Y][Y]

Jack M. Tenney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1294794#Comment_1294794

Mike Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Today 9:56 AM

I do not want or need another subscription in my life. Therefore, I would never buy a Logos subscription.

However, I recognize that subscription is the way that software is going. It is how Microsoft Office now works. It is the wave of the future.

But I still love Logos Bible software. I wish them well.

[Y]

[:D]

Eric Daniels

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1294791#Comment_1294791

I hesitate to wade into this discussion, but I am a bit confused on what you are saying here. For the record, I am no fan of Logos shifting to subscription based software. However, how you are describing Microsoft's software isn't entirely accurate. If I purchase Microsoft Office as a stand-alone product...that is it. That is all I get. No feature updates. Just periodic functionality updates to keep MS Office working *for a time.* Once the end of life of the product has been reached, there are no more updates, including compatability updates for future OS versions. And yes, I will need to keep around an old computer so I can use the software, or else pay for an upgrade.

If Logos shifts to subscription software, the same will be true. We were never promised features that will continually be improved forever. We were promised features how they existed at the time of package purchase. Based on what I see, I don't think Mark or Logos/FL is being misleading in this regard.

As a most recent Logos 4 owner who upgraded to Logos 10, I have been living with a VERY inferior product for many years that has not received enhancements or feature improvements. That was the deal. And if I wanted better or improved features, I had to upgrade, which I recently did. The only difference in the future will be that I will have to purchase a subscription to get improved features rather than buy them outright (which I am not a fan of, but it is what it is).

If I am missing anything, feel free to elaborate.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1295348#Comment_1295348

If I am missing anything, feel free to elaborate.

Well, we don't know, of course. But your L4 to L10 had major improvements that you did 'pay' for thru book purchases.

In theory, your future book purchases will only fund keeping your L10 alive. You lose. In theory.

Steven MacDonald

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1295348#Comment_1295348

Microsoft still offers both the option to purchase a perpetual license and the option to subscribe to Office 365. So if I already purchased the previous version of Office 2021, I can use it as long as it works without having to upgrade, or decide to purchase Office 2024 when it comes out this year. So the customer still gets to decide where and when they want to stop. If they stop, they get to keep whatever version they paid for. No more updates but they still have it. They are careful about not alienating their user base and cash flow.

By the way, Office 2010 still runs on Windows 11 on any new computer. Not sure what the oldest version for Mac is.

Fun Trivia: BibleWorks still works even on the latest beta version of Windows 11.

Just because a version loses "support" does not mean it will instantly stop working. It's really an unknown.

I do hope Logos offers both options moving forward as I will gladly pay for an upgrade will new valuable features.

Just informational. No argument intended here :-)

Eric Daniels

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1295350#Comment_1295350

It is amazing that the folks at Bibleworks continue to make sure that BW10 still runs smoothly. But they don't do that for previous versions. Similarly, a perpetual Microsoft license allows that version of the software to work, but there is end of life support for it. All it does is give you the right to use that version, but it doesn't provide guaranteed feature updates or compatibility.

The one thing I have consistently heard with this conversation about subscriptions with Logos is that 1) We won't lose access to our books and 2) They will always make sure that the version we purchased will work. If they deliver on #2, they will be doing more than companies like Microsoft agree to, even with perpetual licenses.

And I am right there with you regarding future purchases. If I can still use what I have already bought and add on new features with a subscription, I would definitely consider it.

Eric Daniels

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1295349#Comment_1295349

Again, I am still a bit confused. What would I lose? I still have a working version of L10 which Logos has stated they will make sure receives compatibility updates, in theory. What am I theoretically losing that I haven't already been experiencing for the last 14 years on Logos 4?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1295385#Comment_1295385

2) They will always make sure that the version we purchased will work.

Because of the length of the discussions on subscriptions, I'll make a nit-picky correction. They have already removed the concept of running old versions of the code. Rather they are promising that the current version will retain the ability to use your library and maintain a similar set of features. The difference is the way you worded it might lead people to believe they can continue to run the same code; the way I worded it implies that you will receive regular updates to keep the code in line with current operating systems and conventions.

Eric Daniels

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1295387#Comment_1295387

This is me "liking" your post in the absence of a like button on this forum.

Fair enough point.

Gerald

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1295348#Comment_1295348

As a most recent Logos 4 owner who upgraded to Logos 10, I have been living with a VERY inferior product for many years that has not received enhancements or feature improvements. That was the deal. And if I wanted better or improved features, I had to upgrade, which I recently did. The only difference in the future will be that I will have to purchase a subscription to get improved features rather than buy them outright (which I am not a fan of, but it is what it is).

If I am missing anything, feel free to elaborate.

The last package upgrade I purchased was Logos 9 Silver. The description of that package stated that the Silver package did not include the full collection of datasets. I did not realize until this week that I have been given access to the datasets because I am a subscriber to Faith Life Connect, not because I purchased the Silver upgrade. I now understand that is why the last information provided on the respective package upgrades includes a selector button to buy only the resources, or one to buy both the resources and datasets.

Considering the news that going forward Logos will be a subscription only program, I decided not to take a risk that the full datasets for Logos 10 will no longer be available to purchase outright, so I bought them.

Now what do I do with my Faith Life Connect? The only real benefit to me is the 2 ME courses, and a few resources, of which probably don't affect me. Is there any other reason not to cancel it? I don't think I will jump on the AI bandwagon anytime soon.

Thanks

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1295630#Comment_1295630

Now what do I do with my Faith Life Connect? The only real benefit to me is the 2 ME courses, and a few resources, of which probably don't affect me. Is there any other reason not to cancel it? I don't think I will jump on the AI bandwagon anytime soon.

Mark Barnes (Logos) recommends that you keep your Connect subscription so you do not lose any perks, and wait until until the new subscription offer is finalised (probably with an attractive discount). You might be able to have a free trial of the Logos Pro Early access, but watch for the date when you have to start paying!

NichtnurBibelleser

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1295785#Comment_1295785

I already asked that in an other thread - maybe the wrong one?

I was wondering if the forthcoming new features in Logos Pro are about "sermons" as well or if they cover more "bible study".

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1296122#Comment_1296122

I already asked that in an other thread - maybe the wrong one?

I was wondering if the forthcoming new features in Logos Pro are about "sermons" as well or if they cover more "bible study".

Of course, they will cover more bible study but no one can predict what/when. "Sermons" is just the current focus.

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