Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

I personally wouldn't have used the word "forever" in that marketing copy, but there are two main ways I see of interpreting it:

1. You receive a permanent license to the feature. It's not a rental or a subscription. If you buy Logos 8 Gold today but Logos 9 Bronze in two years, you don't lose the feature because you "downgraded"; instead, your license rolls into the next major version of the software (and dynamic pricing means you never pay for it twice). Maybe some features do eventually get deprecated, but we have sold you a permanent license to a downloadable copy of the software and you can keep running it on an air-gapped VM for the rest of your life.
2. You have made a one-time purchase of the "platonic ideal" of a particular feature, and Logos will upgrade and enhance that feature to be compatible with all future computing devices and operating systems yet without changing the core nature of the feature in ways that could be considered deprecating or obsoleting. Logos will also throw in various improvements to the feature for free without requiring any additional payment for those improvements. This will continue forever, including past the Resurrection and the Final Judgment.

I think you're expecting (2) and are upset that the company's position is (1); is that an accurate summary? (And if (2) doesn't encapsulate your position, then perhaps you could state exactly what you do think should be included in "forever" ownership of a feature?)

Almost everything you've bought in the past can be run forever if you freeze the software at the version you bought it at (and make an offline backup of your licenses). (There are some features that do require an online dataset to run and I agree we shouldn't be promising literal "forever" access to those because that's not within our power to provide.)

They have deprecated some, renamed and then sold as new

If you're claiming that Logos Sermon Builder is nothing more than a renamed LDLS Sermon File Addin, then I submit that you're arguing in extremely bad faith. Literally the only thing in common between the two products is the word "Sermon" in the title (and, I suppose, the target market).

There has been a lot of confusion. Thank you, Bradley, for the clarification. 

I personally wouldn't have used the word "forever" in that marketing copy, but there are two main ways I see of interpreting it:

1. You receive a permanent license to the feature. It's not a rental or a subscription. If you buy Logos 8 Gold today but Logos 9 Bronze in two years, you don't lose the feature because you "downgraded"; instead, your license rolls into the next major version of the software (and dynamic pricing means you never pay for it twice). Maybe some features do eventually get deprecated, but we have sold you a permanent license to a downloadable copy of the software and you can keep running it on an air-gapped VM for the rest of your life.
2. You have made a one-time purchase of the "platonic ideal" of a particular feature, and Logos will upgrade and enhance that feature to be compatible with all future computing devices and operating systems yet without changing the core nature of the feature in ways that could be considered deprecating or obsoleting. Logos will also throw in various improvements to the feature for free without requiring any additional payment for those improvements. This will continue forever, including past the Resurrection and the Final Judgment.

I think you're expecting (2) and are upset that the company's position is (1); is that an accurate summary? (And if (2) doesn't encapsulate your position, then perhaps you could state exactly what you do think should be included in "forever" ownership of a feature?)

Almost everything you've bought in the past can be run forever if you freeze the software at the version you bought it at (and make an offline backup of your licenses). (There are some features that do require an online dataset to run and I agree we shouldn't be promising literal "forever" access to those because that's not within our power to provide.)

They have deprecated some, renamed and then sold as new

If you're claiming that Logos Sermon Builder is nothing more than a renamed LDLS Sermon File Addin, then I submit that you're arguing in extremely bad faith. Literally the only thing in common between the two products is the word "Sermon" in the title (and, I suppose, the target market).

Bradley - Thank you for the response!

In relation to Point 1 - is that fully accurate? I had been able to use the Libronix engine and features through VM/Compatability Mode without issue, until the activation servers were shut down. So once I ran into a need for reinstall - it was no longer possible - if you have a still functioning work around I'd love to give it a go. If you are referring solely to the Logos engine, there's concern of a "Libronix" deprecation effect leading to forced subscription for me, without the purchase upgrade option. Or as your illustration of upgrading from version to version - there are features updated and some not updated - so we could be stuck running an old engine for a deprecated feature and not have access to the new features we own without running dual installs of the application.

Point 2 is what is marketed, but really never has been consistently applied and much grace has been given by users in support of the company. For me it is the subscription only nonsense that is the last straw. I have continued to upgrade, in spite of the "forever" marketing and have paid for features I own that were renamed, updated and expanded without complaint because I enjoyed supporting the product.

As for claiming Sermon Builder - I've not mentioned Sermon Builder, that is a different module all together from Sermon File. The "new" Sermon Importer introduced in L10 is functionally an updated Sermon File Addin IMHO. It's what many of us were asking for back with the conversion to L4. 

Due to the contradictory statements, lack of answers of any kind and some of the past issues - I am concerned that we are going to be forced into a subscription or not be able to upgrade going forward. That is the main issue, as none of the sales pitch nor consistent presentation of Loogs has ever led us to understand the need of possibly being stuck with running an old engine in a VM to maintain access without having to pay for access.

Graham Criddle

Thanks for the reply but that button you showed in your quote does not appear on my web page. How do I get it to show up? I use Microsoft Edge on a microsoft  surface book 2 on windows 11.

Bradley,

Again. much appreciation for your time to respond. You have always been a great representative and user friendly member of the staff there.

When many of us are talking about our concern of being "forced" into a subscription to maintain access, it is because Mark has contradicted his statement that we will keep our features, or at best left out the need to keep an outdated engine running to accomplish this, possibly in a VM depending on the situation.

Mark made it clear in the response to my question that I have posted the quote several times. that improved Features would be behind the subscription or for purchase IF offered. You are the first from Faithlife to even attempt to address these concerns in the weeks since, in spite of my multiple requests for customer contact and others from Faithlife responding in the same or other threads.

So, if features are improved and locked behind a paywall, our only option is to subscribe to continue with an updated engine with OS compatability and bug fixes, or if we want to keep the now updated feature active without paying we lose the bug fixes....

I've even asked if the plan was to follow an "Office 24/Office 365" type setup, where my purchased "Office 24" will have its "engine" and will get feature updates and bug fixes that apply to the purchased application and the "365" subscription application will have the more frequent updates and benefits to its "engine".... Since from my recollection, this has not been the path for Logos and honestly seems like it would add a greater financial burden for the maintenance of seperate engines - I didn't think that was going to be the path and asked with no response of any kind.

If both a subscription model and perpetual license purchase are offered, these issues/concerns go away for the most part. It also keeps a broader and based upon feedback happier customer base interested in the Logos system. We all realize that some Features reliant on AI would have an added cost, but many have expressed they have no interest in that avenue or are not willing to pay for it. So allowing the purchase only (minus AI features), purchase plus (pay for AI) and subscription tiers would be beneficial to all of us, thus best opportunity for continued customer support for Logos going forward, that is assuming continued fair pricing of Feature Sets and not a drastic increase in price for those who wish to purchase.

*** Also, the mantra has been that we will continue to have the ability to purchase books, etc.... Is there a plan to reintroduce the long missed Libronix feature of having the option of what is updated? If not, to allow the books we purchase to download and install, we have the extra work of not allowing auto updates and trying to make sure that we don't accidently allow an application update to avoid the above issues. If an option is available to block application updates and allow books only - it could continue to work without tap dancing through purchases and updates to maintain our functionality.

Again. much appreciation for your time to respond. You have always been a great representative and user friendly member of the staff there

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I just signed up for Logos pro and did a search on the new search screen. It turned up hundreds of articles ALL LOCKED! Thats not what I want to see. I want results I can access and none I can't access unless I ask for them. Please correct this issue Thank you

John

I just signed up for Logos pro and did a search on the new search screen. It turned up hundreds of articles ALL LOCKED! Thats not what I want to see. I want results I can access and none I can't access unless I ask for them. Please correct this issue Thank you

John

You can find out more about the different search modes here:

New Detailed Search Help (logos.com)

I also find "books" to be a confusing heading. I would want to search my entire library, not just my books. What about journals and magazines? Based on the heading, I have no idea if they are included or not. Never before has an "all" search included a massive amount of resources that a user does not own. In my opinion, the setup now is confusing, less than optimal. 

if the “extra step” refers to the need to select “Books” instead of “All”, I agree 100% that it is either a bug, or an annoying marketing gimmick.

This is indeed what I was referring to. Thank you for your insight, though. Makes sense.

Sam,

I expect this is true. Because it remembers the last type of search, I suppose the "issue" would for the most part only occur the first time one does a search.

My preference would be to have a category called "My Library," which would function as the default the first time a user opens a search with Logos Pro. This title would provide a clear differentiation from "All," which includes all books in the Logos catalog. I'm not trying to disparage anything. Just expressing my thoughts as someone who has heard about but not yet used Logos Pro. So take them for what they're worth... likely not all that much [;)] 

When many of us are talking about our concern of being "forced" into a subscription to maintain access, it is because Mark has contradicted his statement that we will keep our features, or at best left out the need to keep an outdated engine running to accomplish this, possibly in a VM depending on the situation.

Mark made it clear in the response to my question that I have posted the quote several times. that improved Features would be behind the subscription or for purchase IF offered. You are the first from Faithlife to even attempt to address these concerns in the weeks since, in spite of my multiple requests for customer contact and others from Faithlife responding in the same or other threads.

So, if features are improved and locked behind a paywall, our only option is to subscribe to continue with an updated engine with OS compatability and bug fixes, or if we want to keep the now updated feature active without paying we lose the bug fixes....

I think your last statement here may be based on a false assumption. I don't know what will happen in the future, but let's consider a (hypothetical, speculative) historical example of what might have happened if Logos 10 had only been available via subscription.

Two new features in Logos 10 were Advanced Timeline and Print Library. These were (like all past upgrades) available with a perpetual license. If Logos 10 had been sold with new features as subscription-only, then a subscription would have been required to access those new features. If a customer didn't subscribe, they would have been able to install the Logos 10 (now Logos 33) engine but those features wouldn't have been available. The regular Timeline would not have been locked (just because they didn't buy Advanced Timeline) and the regular Library would continue to work as before, just without Print Library features. This is exactly the same as a Logos 9 user installing the Logos 33 engine without buying a Logos 10 Feature Set.

In this example, I don't think anyone is "forced" into subscription any more than Logos 9 customers are "forced" to buy a base package upgrade or Logos 10 Feature Set. All the Logos 9 books and features still keep working the way they did in the past, now on the new engine (which includes free under-the-hood improvements to run on Apple Silicon, use the latest .NET, support Windows 11, add Dark Mode support to more features, etc., etc.)

(Now, will some of those Logos 9 features eventually be deprecated? Almost certainly yes, the way Handouts from Logos 4 were removed in Logos 27. But they weren't taken away in the very next release for non-paying customers. This deprecation and/or obsolescence happens many many years later, after we see which features are resonating with users and which aren't getting used but are cluttering up the software, making it harder to use and more costly to maintain.)

This is what I understand Mark to be saying when he says improved features may only be available via subscription. I haven't seen any statement that "[your] only option is to subscribe to continue with an updated engine". In fact, I'm fairly certain he has said that the updated engine will continue to be freely available.

(Now, could some existing features be deprecated and replaced with subscription-only features? I mean, theoretically, yes. For example, it would be technically possible for us to completely remove Logos 9 search (offline searching with a local index) and announce that searching is now only available as Smart Search via subscription and online-only. Would this be a good business move? No, I think it would result in massive user backlash and make Logos less competitive with Kindle as an ebook platform. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? IMO, no; I would ask you to look at our 30-year history of trying to do the right thing for the customer, engaging in dialogue with our customer base, being open and upfront about our plans, announcing products here in the forums and then killing them based on customer feedback--you know which one I'm talking about 😀--and so on. Finally, one gentle reminder that none of this is set in stone. We haven't announced any pricing, feature sets, or subscription vs perpetual license plans for later this year. The team is still working through the various options and taking all this customer feedback into account. Thanks for your continuing dialogue in this thread.)

I appreciate the response again! I do understand your points, but a couple of the examples are not pertinent to the concern. Advanced Timeline and Print Library are/were New Features as you said, I am talking about Features I already own. If it were just new Features, I'd be disappointed, but chalk it up as Logos not wanting my business if they stick with subscription only.

While deprecating Features has been a historical frustration for many as can be seen throughout the lost features posts dating back to the move to L4. It's a smaller part of the concern, well, depending on what were to be deprecated...

My direct question here:

If we already paid for a feature and it gets improvements - will the updated feature only be available to those who subscribe? If so, doesn't that punish early adopters as you mentioned???

If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.

I think it would punish early adopters if we sold a new feature, and then six or twelve weeks later offered a better version.

As you can see I directly asked about owned features that just received an improvement, not new features, an improved feature. Mark mentioned L8 features as an example but did state an "improved" feature would likely only be available via subscription (or purchase IF offered)....

That's where the concern is based.... He has not had the courtesy to clarify that statement nor has he or any other member of management had the courtesy to contact me despite requesting so with customer service, so I can better question and understand that statement. The forums do not always allow the best communication option, but my request has still gone ignored.....

This one statement opens the path to the concerns that many of us have and the examples of potentially being stuck on outdated engines or having to subscribe to maintain access to those improved features we had owned.

I do understand your mentioning the past 30 years, but you my friend are one of the only evidences of the golden days with this company..... I wish I could rely on those days, but things seem quite different....

Bradley wrote: "I will admit that the Logos engine is harder to install in a fully offline scenario. What I would strongly recommend for anyone who wants to keep a particular version of Logos running "forever" is to install it now, online, in a VM and back up that entire VM including the OS. You can then keep running it offline (with the current set of features and books) indefinitely, as long as there's a company (or community) supporting running the underlying OS under virtualization on the hardware of the future. (For obvious reasons, I'd recommend virtualizing the Windows version, not macOS. Wine on Linux might also be an option for long-term support, but I suspect it still needs a little more maturity.)"

I am running version 33.0.363 with the Pro subscription active.  I am using MacOS on a MacBook.  Can I create a VM environment and install the present Logos version?  Would I be able to use an older version of MacOS such as Monterey (which supports the present Logos) as the VM OS?  Oce I have this setup how would I go about adding new resources to the VM without Logos servers seeking to update the installed version of Logos?