Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

1. If I subscribe and get updated datasets and then stop paying a subscription fee, do I lose those updates?
2. If I subscribe, is my current package replaced by the Propackage.
3. If I unscubscribe in a year or two, do I have to reinstall my current package (Logos Gold)?
4. Will my current package, Logos Gold,  that still be available for download with its entire library should I get a new PC and need to reinstall all my software?

I was wondering myself what happens to features available only via subscription if one cancels the subscription at a later time. It seems like the hybrid subscription model previously mentioned could handle this situation. Thanks everyone for your patience, both Logos users and staff.

Philippians 4:4-5a

To be honest I am a bit dismayed by all this. I am already a subscriber to Faithlife Connect. Now another subscription. And on top of that all but 15 of the 430 books I already have in my library - how is that right if I am to pay for another sub?

Anyhow, having been with Logos since before 1999 and $30k+ of expenditure later, I might now be thinking of going elsewhere and sell-up (if even possible after this stunt). You do not inspire confidence that sometime down the road you will not also give subscriptions to other books as you are doing with the 430 books already available and devalue what I have spent these last 25 years with you doing.

Clearly jumping on the AI and subscription model has been too tempting to resist. I think avarice has taken over and Logos has lost its way.

I've enjoyed the later Logos versions and ideas with the sermon manager and sermon template. They were good ideas. I imported all 2000+ sermons and now... Logos has become much more complicated then in the days when I simply used the exegetical and passage guides. 

Not all progress is good. No longer will there be depth to sermons or academia because of reading for ourselves. Now it is all summarised into pithy statements which will be used in university papers.

Technology has helped a great deal with having all our books in one place and searching. Logos has streamlined what took probably 40x times as long in the past. So, I am not against that. But undermining with AI, the 'panacea' that lacks any of the Spirit's moving in our hearts. Souless is the result.

Frankly, I need convincing it is worth staying. I do not like where you're heading.

I agree. Far too vague and far too uncertain. Over 25 years of being with Logos and now I am looking to see if I can sell out before they devalue everything through subscription models.

Patience, Ian. The current AI subscription is just an early access ... they plan to combine and re-structure this fall. And they're well aware of their customers ... early discussion allowed considerable comment!

And you (we) just don't know what'll be the offer. Some of the past offers have been quite attractive.  I'm not a subscriber person and don't plan to, but many are ... could turn out well.  Apparently, the hoped for revenue already has dreams of app fixes by staff.

Frankly, I need convincing it is worth staying. I do not like where you're heading.

Unfortunately, there is little that long-time, big-investment, large-library users can do at this point.  It’s impractical to sell all those resources, and impractical to change the long-time habits and dependence on them that has naturally been engendered.  
It’s up to whatever the new ownership chooses.  It’s not up to us.

However, whoever the owner is, it’s incorporated in the USA.  If it turns out that they handle things in “bad faith” (legal not spiritual), and if millions of existing resource-owners (ie the perpetual license type) get trapped into using a non-subscription engine that gradually has its existing features eroded by subscription-only replacements, then there is clear cause for a class-action lawsuit.  

Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.

We’ve read and parsed the “assurances” of the current leadership.  We’ve discussed how features have disappeared or been replaced in the past.  We’ve made it clear that this announcement has shaken our trust in the organization.   So, we’ll just have to see how it shakes out this fall when they lay their cards on the table.  

Hopefully, those of us who have spent tens of thousands of dollars will not at that point need to call attorneys.  Let’s wait and see.  And pray that faithfulness and trustworthiness will win out, over greed.

Unfortunately, there is little that long-time, big-investment, large-library users can do at this point.  

Jim,

You, like all of us, certainly have the right to your opinion. I feel though that it is important to reiterate that not everyone shares your opinion.

While there are a number of people that have been using Logos longer than I have and have spent more money, I consider myself a long-time, big-investment, large-library user. I did not invest in Logos due to any promises of low price or free access. I invested in Logos because I find it to be the most usable and robust Bible study software available then or now.

Its continued existence as a tool that I can use in my Bible study is far more important to me than any slight, whether real or imagined, that might have occurred through the years. The use of this tool for my own spiritual growth, as well as the spiritual growth of those that I teach, is far more important than any monetary amount that I might be able to receive.

Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.

We hope, in good faith, that this is not the case for Faithlife with Logos. I am one who has already invested in a large library and would be devastated if this happened. 

Clearly, it is “bad faith” to sell “perpetual licenses” for “logos edition” resources which are supposed to be usable in far more powerful environment than typical ebook readers - and then later, charge rent for being able to ACCESS the built-in features of those books.

Hi Jim, I think you are conflating two different things, access to the features of the software, and access to the books in our library. Access to the books will still be possible using at a minimum the basic Logos free software engine. That is not in question. Access to the features is a very different matter. When we purchase a resource as a Logos Research Edition, we do not have a right to be able to use all the features of the software with that resources, we just have the availability to do so, if we have bought or subscribed to be able to use those features. We will always have access to our digital library, and we will always have the possibility of using the features of the software with those resources, but we don't necessarily have access to those features unless we have bought or subscribed separately. 

Hi John

I tried to be clear in my comment. I’m not “conflating” two things. The books that we’ve purchased “in perpetuity” *include* tagging and hypertext links etc (ie the “Logos Edition” and “Research Edition” stuff) which are an inherent part of that book’s content.  Recently (in the context of history since the 90’s when I started), Logos has been “parsing“ the access to those features by requiring Gold or higher - this was NOT originally the case. I’m Portfolio in three traditions plus a lot of other packages (14k books, $28k invested).  The basis on which those books were sold to me was that the features would be accessible.  

Example: imagine buying a print book that has helpful appendices, and then after a few years the ink in the appendices disappear, section by section - and the publisher requires you to subscribe to an “ink restorer” doohickey to make it visible again. 

The concern I and many others have expressed is that Logos will continue the pattern we’ve seen already in the past (ie their proven track record) of parsing out access to features and/or eliminating them and/or replacing them with alternative ones (without legacy support for the prior feature). This extant practice will most likely (from what I’ve read of Mark’s and Phil’s comments and emails) become even more aggressive as time goes on. 
That is, what now “works” in non-subscription L10 Full Feature may not fully “work” a year or two or five from now, UNLESS the L10 Full Feature owner starts paying for subscriptions. 

Imo, if that happens, it is a breach of faith and legally actionable. Time will tell. 

Hi John

I tried to be clear in my comment. I’m not “conflating” two things. The books that we’ve purchased “in perpetuity” *include* tagging and hypertext links etc (ie the “Logos Edition” and “Research Edition” stuff) which are an inherent part of that book’s content.  Recently (in the context of history since the 90’s when I started), Logos has been “parsing“ the access to those features by requiring Gold or higher - this was NOT originally the case. I’m Portfolio in three traditions plus a lot of other packages (14k books, $28k invested).  The basis on which those books were sold to me was that the features would be accessible.  

Example: imagine buying a print book that has helpful appendices, and then after a few years the ink in the appendices disappear, section by section - and the publisher requires you to subscribe to an “ink restorer” doohickey to make it visible again. 

The concern I and many others have expressed is that Logos will continue the pattern we’ve seen already in the past (ie their proven track record) of parsing out access to features and/or eliminating them and/or replacing them with alternative ones (without legacy support for the prior feature). This extant practice will most likely (from what I’ve read of Mark’s and Phil’s comments and emails) become even more aggressive as time goes on. 
That is, what now “works” in non-subscription L10 Full Feature may not fully “work” a year or two or five from now, UNLESS the L10 Full Feature owner starts paying for subscriptions. 

Imo, if that happens, it is a breach of faith and legally actionable. Time will tell. 

Hi Jim

I don't agree. The resources, such as print books, have page numbers, hyperlinks etc. which will work regardless of what features one has access to. Other resources like Bibles are not bought with inherent access to tagged information, but access to the tagged datasets is through purchasing to enable features that use them, depending on the level of Logos one has. Tagged datasets were never sold as part of a resource, as far as I am aware, but bought or subscribed to as part of feature sets. 

Regarding the threat of legal action, my mind goes to what Paul teaches about that in 1 Cor 6. I'm not at all comfortable with the litigious approach that seems to run through this thread in some posts. Personally, I think that the company has made a fair promise, which it is fully on target to keep, regarding continuing access to the resources that we have purchased. The only concerns I have are whether moving to a subscription model will be the only option, or be relatively expensive for long-term users like you and I, or priced beyond some people's ability to afford them on a cost/benefit basis. 

I've spent quite a sum on Logos too, so I'm in the same boat in terms of wanting to continue to be able to use it as well. I am personally waiting to see what will be put forward in due course. I see that a subscription model could attract a wide range of new users, who couldn't afford the steep cost of buying an expensive base package up front. But I'd like to see the subscription pricing set such that it is attractive for long term users, with the definite option of purchasing the complete feature set. I'm probably going to go for upgrading to the full feature set, since I don't see myself using AI, certainly not for sermon illustrations, questions etc. But I believe that the options put forward will take our views into good consideration. 

Hi Jim

I don't agree. The resources, such as print books, have page numbers, hyperlinks etc. which will work regardless of what features one has access to. Other resources like Bibles are not bought with inherent access to tagged information, but access to the tagged datasets is through purchasing to enable features that use them, depending on the level of Logos one has. Tagged datasets were never sold as part of a resource, as far as I am aware, but bought or subscribed to as part of feature sets. 

Regarding the threat of legal action, my mind goes to what Paul teaches about that in 1 Cor 6. I'm not at all comfortable with the litigious approach that seems to run through this thread in some posts. Personally, I think that the company has made a fair promise, which it is fully on target to keep, regarding continuing access to the resources that we have purchased. The only concerns I have are whether moving to a subscription model will be the only option, or be relatively expensive for long-term users like you and I, or priced beyond some people's ability to afford them on a cost/benefit basis. 

I've spent quite a sum on Logos too, so I'm in the same boat in terms of wanting to continue to be able to use it as well. I am personally waiting to see what will be put forward in due course. I see that a subscription model could attract a wide range of new users, who couldn't afford the steep cost of buying an expensive base package up front. But I'd like to see the subscription pricing set such that it is attractive for long term users, with the definite option of purchasing the complete feature set. I'm probably going to go for upgrading to the full feature set, since I don't see myself using AI, certainly not for sermon illustrations, questions etc. But I believe that the options put forward will take our views into good consideration. 

Re 1 Cor 6, my view is that its primary focus is that of believers suing believers. I would never had mentioned it but for the change in ownership to a secular organization. And I would hope that it never would be necessary. I personally have never sued anyone for anything.  But pragmatically speaking, from a secular venture-capital firm‘s POV (which I believe is driving this switch to subscription), they should be aware of the potential massive class action that COULD be warranted, if they go too far with this idea. 
As I said, only time will tell. 

I think we’ll need to agree to disagree on our POV about the tagging and hyperlinks and datasets - I believe that *full* access and use of those (which are integral to MANY of the logos engine features) is part of what I paid for in perpetuity when I bought the books. The clear evidence of this is the sales pages for each title, which describe the benefits of the Logos or Research editions.  That’s what’s advertised. Federal truth in advertising law, and State bait and switch prohibitions, would seem to disallow removal of ANY of those features subsequent to purchase. 

Mark,

We've read that statement about books remaining freely accessible; however the underlying issue is the continued viability of the Logos engine. If all improvements are made to the subscription-based version, it would seem that those who elect not to subscribe will eventually be left with a license for an engine that no longer works with some future operating system or hardware platform version.

What I think we'd all like to hear is the position of the company on that. If we are content with the current feature set, can we anticipate that necessary technological updates will be made available as newer operating system and hardware platforms evolve?

Grace and peace to you.
Larry Eiss
LarryEiss.com

Mark. I'm hoping Logos will have (at least introductory) tutorials on all of these new Pro features, as well as the upcoming Logos 11.

For years I subscribed to the Morris Proctor library for training. But they had a recent substantial price increase that put it out of my reach. Formerly, they had an option that allowed you to "rent" the library on a month-by-month basis, but now they've done away with that too.

After the death of Morris, the changes at MP Seminars have made the training service no longer accessible to me -- financially (and probably many others, too).

Hi Mark,

I saw some responses to my previous post on this subject as well as responses to questions put forth by others.

But somehow I"m still unclear about some aspects and request a response ...

Amen brother!   The benefits of long sustained rigorous thought are so quickly being forsaken by convenience and technology... it seems to me.

I hope there is a Faithlife resolve to maintain all the existing features and functions of at least the L10 desktop application.  When new cloud provided features and capabilities begin to conflict (or be limited by) the technology on the desktop, I don't want to see those local features moved to the cloud or suffer a lack of functionality.  Not everyone wants to or needs to be connected 100% of the time, nor should they be relegated to that when studying the Word... IMHO

Thanks for producing & supporting a great product and your consideration.