Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

If you want feedback, I would personally like continued access to feature sets. I really dislike the thought of having yet again l, another subscription. I would gladly forgo the use of AI. I have had a lot of experience with it, I don’t like half the stuff if spits out. Also I think the Word of God should be wrestled over, read, tested.

I just don’t think this is a good idea in general. This is just going to create lazy preachers and expositors, outsourcing what we should be doing to a computer.

It appears to be a good thing now, there are a lot of promises about what it will bring, but no one is talking about what it takes away. I can see a time in the very close future where reliance on the AI will color our thinking, introduce (probably slowly and unbeknownst to us, biases the AI have, and I assure you l, from what I have seen already, I want no part of that).

I think there should be more push back on this than what I am already seeing on this thread. So definitely, I think on that basis alone, having a full feature purchasable program to access my library should be available and maintained. Personally folks, I think this is a slippery slope. “Danger Danger Will Robinson!”

Also I think the Word of God should be wrestled over, read, tested.

I just don’t think this is a good idea in general. This is just going to create lazy preachers and expositors, outsourcing what we should be doing to a computer. Technology is good, and we have used it to great effect, but I think this is one of those things is just a step too far off the precipice.

It appears to be a good thing now, there are a lot of promises about what it will bring, but no one is talking about what it takes away. I can see a time in the very close future where reliance on the AI will color our thinking, introduce (probably slowly and unbeknownst to us, biases the AI have, and I assure you l, from what I have seen already, I want no part of that).

I think there should be more push-back on this than what I am already seeing on this thread. So definitely, I think on that basis alone, having a full feature purchasable program to access my library should be available and maintained. Personally folks, I think this is a slippery slope. “Danger Danger Will Robinson!”

I agree completely!  I've mentioned this previously, at some length, here and elsewhere.

The gifts of knowledge and wisdom and insight are given to believers, not to computers.

The Holy Spirit indwells, guides, teaches and empowers believers, not computers.

*Using* those gifts, and *submitting* to that direction, brings glory to God.

Furthermore, the *process* of searching and study and rightly dividing itself brings blessing and growth, and quite often, unexpected and unlooked-for insights and conviction and worship.

... Having said that ... I think that many tools have been created in the past couple hundred years, which make that process more efficient and expedient.  English, Greek and Hebrew print-concordances were essential tools for me back in the 70's & 80's, as were Interlinears and Morphological Parsing guides.  Logos and other applications automate that tremendously further, and add to it specific searches for lemmas and forms, etc.

... We begin, however, to "edge away" from direct study and parsing of the inspired text, when we use the (very helpful and handy) tagging and datasets that makes Logos more powerful than any other study tool.  Those tags and datasets are created by a combo of humans and rule-engines (expert systems), which for the most part if not wholly, are not from the indwelling guidance and gifts of the Spirit.  That doesn't mean those things are wrong or bad or incorrect ... but it DOES mean they are not inspired.  They are potentially even more fallible than Bible Commentaries ... Commentaries are of course not God-breathed, but at least they are written by believers who presumably have the gifts of wisdom, knowledge &/or teaching ... they merit care when being read, but do offer Spirit-directed benefit.  OTOH, the tags and datasets are created (largely) by Expert Systems (automated search and annotation engines).  Yes, those things are "under God's sovereign control", but they don't utilize the gifts He has provided.

... So ... even the really powerful and "handy" Logos Search capability, when it uses tagging and datasets, is "edging" in the direction away from what I'd consider to be "safe" or "pure" study of the Word.  I'm not saying it's "bad" ... but I do think we need to be careful about using it, and understand its genesis.

*** NOW *** that is being taken even further ... using so-called (non-Turing) "AI" that attempts to "understand what we want" from unstructured queries that utilize unknown relationships to search for loosely-defined fuzzy concepts, somehow ... to draw out information from God's Holy Word, and from other resources that He's gifted us with over the centuries.  Again ... I'm not saying it's "bad" or "sinful" to do this ... but it IS, imo, fraught with DANGER.  It encourages sloppiness and laziness.  It discourages prayer and submission to the Spirit.  It removes the "joy of discovery".

And further ... when we extend those tools to not only search for information, but also to SUMMARIZE it for us, we are getting closer and closer to adding to or subtracting from the Word.  If we use those summaries ONLY to help us decide where to study, but then study the original doc's manually ourselves, that seems fairly safe (although we might be misled by the summary to disregard a source that actually has value). 

The MOST DANGEROUS implementation is when we use the tools to create all or parts of a "finished product" ... a sermon, a lesson, a tract, an answer to a question, a counselling guide, etc.  Imo, when it's taken that far, at best, it has little or no value.  And the entire process which the Holy Spirit should and could have been engaged in through gifted believers, is replaced ... which, if you will, reduces the glory being offered to God.  Or, in other terms ... "nola Deo gloria".

PLEASE ... if anyone is going to quote this, quote the entire thing, since the various points build on one another and provide context.  THANKS.

So I fear: The 9,99 Dollar subscription price for Logos will also only be the beginning.

Your english is great.

And an interesting point. If the subscription kept going up (more features?) and you couldn't manage it, you'd have nothing to show for it, after quiting.

What if the Company offered a pro-rata discount to purchase services outright if they find that a subscription doesn't work for them, and have to cancel?

If someone had to cancel subscription after some years, it would be good for them to have a pro-rata discount to allow them to purchase so that they could keep the level of services that they had up to that point in time. A generous discount for long term subscribers would make it easier to opt for subscribing, since there would be an eventual option of having something at the end of subscribing, without having to pay the full price of the features, if they were still sold on a purchase basis. 

Yes, I agree. I know they will keep the purchased books, for the meantime so as to no ostracize the existing customer base. However I have had my suspicions for a number I years with the increasingly money hungry attitude FaithLife have take of late, and just the general corporate attitude and hunger towards profits, will try to force the subscription model. There will be a grace period, a few years, and then it will be announced “due to unforeseen circumstances, that the perpetual license model is no longer financially viable to maintain any longer. We said we were committed, and we still are, but we have to face financial realities  so we are sunsetting the feature sets and perpetual licenses.” 

Like any move like this, they show you with one hand what they are doing meanwhile the other hand behind the back is busy with all sorts of shenanigans. This initial foray is just the proverbial “foot in the door” and once down this path the inevitability of going to a subscription model will be shortly down the pathway of full subscription and the people who have supported them of the last 30+ years will be left in the lurch (I’ve been almost 20 years now - started with a Libronix package). I’m sorry, but I don’t have a lot of faith in men or that they will look after us. 

The other pathway I can envision is probably that Logos 10 will be the last feature package, and will not be maintained for compatibility, and will due to software attrition, die a natural death. From which point I imagine that you will retain your perpetual licenses to the books, but will need a subscription to be able to view or use the books. That way they can say they kept their promise but couldn't keep working on 2 platforms, thereby achieving their goal of moving to a subscription model. It will take time but they will get their eventually with the appearances they had kept the promise to honor keep and maintain the people who own love and use the full feature set. It will either be this or some version of this.

These are features of other companies I have noticed over time who have moved in the same direction. Forgive me for being cynical, but honestly this is what I have come to expect. And honestly, I really don’t want AI anywhere near my study of the Bible. God gave man the Word, not AI. Our forefathers like Spurgeon, Edwards, Carey and others, did just fine even without Logos. If we ever want to see men like that in the future, leave AI out of it. I mean this is different folks, AI may have its place in some areas (some have argued, however for me, I'd have sooner left that cat in the bag than out of it), but honestly, what if you are a believer, preach or Bible expositor that just wants his electronic references and a power search tool such as we have and actually want to just do the hard yards? Will Logos of the future give you that option? Do they have to put a proverbial stumbling block there, a temptation? I really feel like this is Pandora’s box. Just something that just shouldn’t exist. thanks to those who agreed with this sentiment from a previous post. No doubt there will be those who want this. I don’t know, but this whole AI thing, it’s going to rob churches of Spiritual richness, the hard one truths of Gods Word from the pastor, just palmed off to AI. The nay sayers will just look at the potential for good (anything that has potential for good, always have a downside. Man's proclivity for creatively using good things for evil knows no bounds!). It’s like social media - seemed good, until the results from the next generations came and we saw it for what it was - the equivalent of a social and cultural nuclear bomb. Will we get a decade down the road and go, wait, you know what? What we did really wasn't something we should have done. It seemed like a good idea at the time. But unfortunately short sighted profit based model always win out against prudence.

Just because the rest of the world is embracing AI, doesn't mean we have to, nor should we be forced to! Maybe I am being cynical, but I just don't trust FaithLife to keep their word on any of this. I did my last Library upgrade last night, because I don't intend to spend anymore with Faithlife unless they give their full assurances that we still have a feature set that is desktop based. Not some cloud based subscription model. I could not take another think I use to be co-opted to the cloud and to AI.

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I'd encourage all of us that do not want subscriptions, fall back based included - to "vote" with our wallets and not fall into the trap. I will NOT purchase another resource, package or product of any form from Faithlife until the purchase option for Features is honored, I'll also not do another presentation, will not recommend Logos and have been learning the competition's product.... If needed, I will promote their product.

But if we followed this advice, this would cause the company to go bankrupt and ALL of us would be left with whatever we have now until the software is incompatible with future operating systems, and then we would truly have nothing (unless we all keep an old computer with an old OS, etc.). This cannot be the solution. Upgrades are necessary as long as computer systems are changing. I may not want or use some of the features they come up with, but I certainly want to use my Logos library for the rest of my life if at all possible. And it is fair to ask people to pay for new things. I see no need to vilify the company over it. I am optimistic that the people at Faithlife will find a solution that is both viable for them and useful to us. Everything they have said so far points in this direction. It may be different from what we have now, but that does not mean it will be worse.

If it caused bankruptcy for the company, that would be their choice. Many have made it very clear they will not subscribe, so if the company goes bankrupt because a high number of customers have made it clear that they will not support the subscription model, that bankruptcy would be due to the company's ignorance, not the customers choosing not to support a business model.

Pointing out the fact that offering all options would keep a broader customer base in the category of active purchasers is not a villification. It is pointing out the inconsistent nature of claims that subscription is all about sustainable futures... Losing long term faithful customers does not add sustainable revenue, it loses some.

This - 100% - said it better than I did in a shorter space

Pointing out corporate greed is not disparaging. Its calling things out the way they are. 

According to who? At what point is the line crossed from wise business practice to corporate greed? What decisions are being used as a baseline to make such measurements? Pertaining to the situation at hand, No concrete decisions have been made about the subscription model going forward. All we have is an early access to a product that will be released in the Fall. This forum is a great place to voice thoughts and preferences pertaining to Logos Pro and the upcoming subscription model. But I see no reason to rush to judgements and accusations before the product has even been released.

Right now, when I buy something, I know immediately what I'm getting. If I subscribe, I'm not sure what my money is going toward - other than insuring that my favorite Bible software has a predictable revenue stream.

I can't see how it is not essentially hopping aboard the gravy train of the subscription model. The problem with a gravy train, is that eventually too many people get on. You requested some references, and I would suggest there are many more than this, as I have looked into it a fair bit. These are just a couple. I have tried to summarize and identify some the more salient points. 

1st - Article in The Atllantic

"The downside of the model’s popularity is that it has generated tons of bad subscriptions. “A lot of boards and executives are now saying, Let’s get some subscription revenue, without thinking about why that would be good for the customer,” Baxter said....Being downwind of a consumer-subscription boom has also created a pricing problem. Many of the most popular subscription services began their lives as start-ups, which meant that investors flooded them with cash in hopes that they would acquire as many customers as possible, as quickly as possible. Typically, the services did so by losing money hand over fist, charging a nominal fee or offering months of free service or product to anyone who signed up. In theory, that would allow them to create an economy of scale, bringing in a little cash from a lot of people and bringing down the per-unit cost of whatever they were offering. In most cases, though, that hasn’t exactly worked out. Prices go up a lot, businesses lose a lot of customers, or both...he phase we’re in right now might be best described as a subscription shakeout. As more markets become oversaturated with these kinds of services, more buyers will get bored of the concept entirely, and investors will eventually become weary of waiting for profit. At that point, a few common options are on the table: Some businesses will close entirely. Others will look for more funding to enable them to lose more money acquiring new customers, hoping to reach a sustainable scale. Others will go the traditional retail route, looking for more revenue by putting their products on shelves at big-box or grocery stores, no subscription required." (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/03/why-subscriptions-are-hard-to-cancel/623885/)

2nd - The Rise of Subscription-Based Business Models (emb.global) 

Specifically, 

1. According to a report by Deloitte, the subscription e-commerce market has grown by over 100% annually for the past five years. It is popular, it is revue generating
2. A study by McKinsey found that businesses with subscription models can achieve 2-5 times higher customer lifetime value compared to those without subscriptions.

3rd - Streaming industry in Australia and current market dynamics (simon-kucher.com)

Specifically,

1. The global trend of increased streaming hours has been reflected in Australia, but there has been a notable decline in engagement. Only 36 percent of respondents in Australia reported increased streaming compared to the previous year, representing a 13 percentage point decline.
2. This data suggsts a deceleration in streaming expansion and a reduction in willingness to pay for subscriptions.
3. Additionally, there has been a 10% reduction in the average number of owned subscriptions per respondent, accompanied by a 25 percent downturn in the willingness to allocate funds for each subscription.
4. Consumers are also spending more time on free online streaming (as an example of a subscription service), indicating a heightened sensitivity to pricing
5. Regarding Market saturation: the study reveals that 34 percent of particpants have already discontinued subscriptions within the past year, and 39 percent intend to do so in the upcoming year.
6. This collective data hints at a market saturation that has led to subscription fatigue. I would also argue that some of the responses on this forum strongly suggests the same trend. 
7. Interestingly, providers (to address this) are adjusting their monetisation methods and packaging to secure any future growth prospects (I would also suggest that this is heavily dependent on future economic downturns. With the US currently paying over 1 trillion in interest on US government debt, and fast losing its reserve currency status, I would suggest that a black swan even is right around the corner).

Hope that helps.

I'd like to know the source and evidence of us paying less than fair value in the past....

There is no bullet proof evidence but just see the empirical evidence.

Youtube could be watched when it came out without much ads. Now ads are a reality. It also has subscription if you don't want ads. So initially Youtube was underpriced. Not anymore.

Same with Amazon Prime.

Lots of social media is about trying to get you addicted. Once addicted, they can skim you with ads or subscription.

The same is being played out with online gambling. they give you $100 or $200 free to play with initially to get you hooked.

I too would like to know where you get that from. From my stand point I felt like I was paying way above the "fair value" for the product. The only reason I bought it was due to the fact it was bundled books for a cheaper price with a search function. Otherwise, I'd just have a traditional physical library, which I already partly have. The price, convenience and efficiency was the only reason I got it. Take that away and essentially put a lien on my fortnightly income through a subscription, I really rather not, not with everything else, inflation, cost of living. I'll pray, read and fast, and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance rather. 

You can't build your entire business for 32 years on that model and then in one foul swoop make a just-so statement and say, "oh well, now its time to pony up because you have been getting bargain all these years and they didn't get anything". The only pony I will be getting on is the pony off of this train!

I don't agree with the logic. I could have easily spent the $3,500 - $5,000 AUD I spent on this over the last 16 years on a fairly decently sized paper library thank you very much. Unless they are offering a refund for all my books and perpetual license? I'll take that and buy a real books you can't take away from me or charge me for.

Just go and read about "land and expand" strategy of software companies, specifically SaaS (Software as a Service) companies - those that offer subscription model.

I can't see how it is not essentially hopping aboard the gravy train of the subscription model. The problem with a gravy train, is that eventually too many people get on.

I would wonder how they would make out long term with going to only subscriptions.  Subscriptions don't build loyalty. When your needs change, or when you've had a bad experience with the company, you might cancel and go somewhere else. Or just take a break. 

But most of us have spent lots of money over the years. We're invested and loyal. When we buy a new book, we always check to see if it's available in Logos first, and if not, we might get it somewhere else or we might just wait and see if Logos gets it - because we'd far prefer to have that in Logos with the rest of our books than in another format. 

I think Logos would be foolish to leave the money it could make from subscriptions on the table, because there certainly is a market for it, but I would not be so sure that it would end up replacing the money it makes from packages. It would have seemed to be that the best course would have been to simply do both. 

Yeah I can agree with your point there. As long as there will be a commitment to have packages ongoing. When I read the original post, the commitment was a bit wishy washy, and unspecific, mainly focusing on Logos Pro. I don't think it's unreasonable as well, reading the early posts when the market developer was responding to concerns. He was fairly non-committal, which gave rise to a lot of concerns evidently.