Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

Hey, I have subscribed and am liking it so far, but my biggest issue with subscriptions is paying for a long time and not owning it.  I seem to remember when signing up something saying that if I pay for two years, I no longer have to pay to keep the logos 11 features?  Is my memory playing tricks on me or is this reality?

https://www.logos.com/early-access/subscriptions

It's called the Legacy Fallback License. You can keep features that are not AI or cloud-based.

I have two basic problems with the direction Logos is going here.

First, I've been in IT for 30+ years (rule11.tech, rule11.ac). I know a lot of the folks in this forum have little exposure to my world, but I can tell you there is no instance of a company going to a subscription model that does not eventually tie content as well as services to the subscription. It's a sheer matter of finances. The fine folks at Faithlife can swear to me, up, down, and sideways, that there will never be a day when I cannot access content I have purchased, or that all actual content will be purchasable. They can swear they will forever maintain a version of Logos to access the materials with all the features that exist today. 

It's not that think anyone is lying about this. Faithlife truly believes it will be possible to maintain a subscription service and purchased content "forever." But I don't know of a single instance in the history of IT where a company offering a subscription service has not put their efforts into that service, eventually failing to support software they sold in the past. Operating systems are updated. Security and other defects will be discovered (although Faithlife has never, ever, taken user security and privacy seriously). The funding for these things will dry up as the subscription model takes off and drives corporate revenue. 

You still "own" every Word document you have ever written. Accessing those documents, however, becomes harder and harder every year without subscribing to a service. Ownership is meaningless if the data can only be accessed via a subscription service.

In almost every instance, support for the older, non-subscription software will be moved to some "less expensive part of the world," and support will become sketchy. Eventually, the company decides taking the "black eye" of just not supporting expensive to support software that generates lower amounts of company income is worth it. 

I've never seen this not happen. It's not a matter of intentions. It's not a matter of wanting to do the right thing. It's always, in every case, a matter of leaning into financial realities. 

I wish I could be confident this will never happen, but I don't see how to avoid it once you start down the subscription path. I'm not the only one who thinks this, btw ... Christians in the tech world are a shy group. I've received emails from a few different people in the tech world who are serious students of the Scriptures who are already looking for an alternative to Logos. I know some who are exporting their Logos library into other formats to make certain they can keep access to their most important books. They all know electronic media provided on a subscription basis is often stealth edited. 

Second, I really object to dividing people between "professionals" and "others" in the way this is being done. Stop treating lay people as dumb. Stop treating them as "second class." I've left four churches in the Knoxville area because I was told: "theology belongs in a classroom, not in the pew," "God doesn't call smart people," and "you cannot build a big church if you expect the average person in the pew to be smart, and we want to save as many people as possible, so we want to build a big church." 

I've yet to find the commandment in the Scriptures to "go forth and build a big church by not teaching them theology because they might leave." This entire separation between the "dumb congregant" and the "smart pastor" encourages this sort of thinking. I earned/hold an MACM from STS, and a Ph.D. from SEBTS (apologetics and culture). I am a member of EPS. I attend EPS/ETS at least once every 2-3 years. I am a published author in the Christian (and technical) worlds. I write a substack on theology and culture.

I have no interest in being a pastor, but I think every single Christian should be theologically informed. 

And here is Faithlife saying: "Everyone should not understand the scriptures on the same level. Non-professionals just don't need to understand the Scriptures as well as professionals."

I find this entire move to subscription ill-founded and distasteful. I suppose we will not know if this is going to "work" or not is to wait ten years or so, and see how well the non-subscription part of the software is maintained ... but by then, if it doesn't work, it will be too late to go back. I will, probably, on a personal level, start exporting the most important books in my library to some other format so I have a "safe backup" of the books I have purchased through Faithlife. That might seem a little "extreme," but I just don't think I have another choice.

You can't point to the subscription model as an eventuality, not as long as the company has other ways to drive revenue and people are more devoted to it. I think it's more than likely people will decide they would rather take books and can't consistently stick with the subscription model themselves. I wonder, hypothetically, if Logos decided this model didn't work out, how might they backpedal.

Anyway, I wouldn't be concerned about the idea of different subscription tiers being used to divide people with different levels of training. I'm a layperson, and I've got my eyes on the silver feature package. I would be concerned with the predetermined form of what's on offer, and the big difference between what's offered on the three tiers being presented now, the rigidity and the predetermined nature of them. I think I would need more than one tier, but not as much as another. I think the idea was to facilitate people changing subscription tiers from months to month as rolls and needs change. I still say the best thing to do is to do the best you can to sort out which level of Logos itself you want and go for it.

You can't point to the subscription model as an eventuality, not as long as the company has other ways to drive revenue and people are more devoted to it. I think it's more than likely people will decide they would rather take books and can't consistently stick with the subscription model themselves.

Note the naming used here ... it's the Legacy Fallback. That speaks volumes about what the future is.

I have two basic problems with the direction Logos is going here.

Back when folks would wonder about large sums for digital, Faithlife would always reassure concerning the finances. But I always thought, new ownership would be the problem. In our little tourist burg, people bewail the cost of homes, but say nothing to its cause ... new ownership. Sellers want pay ... new owners need revenue.  There's no magic.

I'm age-wise at the end of my planned investment. Even unloading my Chicago Assyrian set. But for younger folks, is the large investments wise?  If I were turning the clock back (and today's Logos). I'd stick with what I call a Bibleworks type library (or basic Accordance). But I doubt most will read the tea leaves.  30% off!

You can't point to the subscription model as an eventuality, not as long as the company has other ways to drive revenue and people are more devoted to it. I think it's more than likely people will decide they would rather take books and can't consistently stick with the subscription model themselves. I wonder, hypothetically, if Logos decided this model didn't work out, how might they backpedal.

That has been my thoughts. A subscription model may get a lot of new people in the door... temporarily. But rarely do they create perpetual subscribers. People who normally might have paid $XXX+ every other year on the package upgrades can just choose to not subscribe for a year if they aren't using the features much. 

And for the new subscribers... there's no loyalty. Us veterans have already invested more money than we care to admit in Logos books, but a newbie paying $X a month might try it for a couple months and then look elsewhere. And let's face it... Logos is difficult to use. It's very overwhelming for the new user. I think new users will be more likely to try it, get frustrated with the learning curve, and then go elsewhere. Whereas if you just invested $xxx in this, you're far more likely to keep figuring out how to use it. 

Faithlife truly believes it will be possible to maintain a subscription service and purchased content "forever." But I don't know of a single instance in the history of IT where a company offering a subscription service has not put their efforts into that service, eventually failing to support software they sold in the past. Operating systems are updated. Security and other defects will be discovered (although Faithlife has never, ever, taken user security and privacy seriously). The funding for these things will dry up as the subscription model takes off and drives corporate revenue. 

I'll give you an example of such a thing I've experienced as it relates to Logos.  It doesn't involve subscriptions, but it does involve Logos resources I've purchased in the past that I can no longer access.

Over 20 years ago, I purchased a CD-ROM by Galaxie Software called the Theological Journal Library.  This contains a compilation of theological journals to be accessed within Logos Bible Software.  At the time of the purchase, version 2 of Logos was in use, and the resource files were compatible with both version 2 as well as the later Libronix version.  Unlike up-to-date editions of the journals that are available individually by year on Logos' web site, these early versions of the journals I purchased at the time were compilations of journals spanning multiple years per each theological journal resource.  For example, included in the library was the Grace Theological Journal, a compilation of journals from 1960-1991 within a single resource (unlike going on the web site and obtaining newer versions of the same journals that are made available individually by volume).

As later versions of Logos were released, they converted some of those theological journal resources I purchased to be compatible with the later Logos versions, but they didn't convert all of them.  This meant that although I could access all of the journals I had from the Galaxie Software resource back in version 2 and Libronix, I could only access some of them in later editions of Logos.

I contacted Faithlife's support regarding all of this.  They confirmed that I had these resources unlocked, and I provided proof to them that I had access to only some of those journals now but not all of them (I provided screenshots of the resources I could access in the library, screenshots of resources not showing up in the library when I type in the resource name in the search field for the library, and I provided them the Logos version 2 files of the journals that I could not access and that were not converted for later versions of Logos).  After back and forth e-mails over a span of a few months, Faithlife's support finally told me the following:

Keep in mind not all the resources that were available in Logos 2 will be compatible with the current software. As this seems to be the case, if nothing changes after scanning the CDs, sadly, that means these resources are not compatible or available in the current version of Logos.

They didn't even offer to provide me the current versions of those same journals that are available to be purchased on the web site and that are available separately by year.  So the end result is that I no longer have access to some of the journals that I purchased years ago.  This didn't sit well with me at all, and I'm not happy with Faithlife.

That's the rub: they're clearly concerned with the cash flow, and not the experience of the individuals using it.

That Galaxie Software concept sounds kind of interesting, but that company is not Logos, and they're already very driven to head down the path they're on.

I would really like to believe this is the case, but it often isn't in the real world. It costs money to keep software updated. New operating systems need to be supported. Code gets old. I know the costs involved as I work in IT. I've lost books (and other media) I purchased in other formats because the reader software was simply no longer supported.

It's easy to say "we're going to do this." It's harder to actually do it.

I contacted Faithlife's support regarding all of this.  They confirmed that I had these resources unlocked, and I provided proof to them that I had access to only some of those journals now but not all of them (I provided screenshots of the resources I could access in the library, screenshots of resources not showing up in the library when I type in the resource name in the search field for the library, and I provided them the Logos version 2 files of the journals that I could not access and that were not converted for later versions of Logos).  After back and forth e-mails over a span of a few months, Faithlife's support finally told me the following:

Keep in mind not all the resources that were available in Logos 2 will be compatible with the current software. As this seems to be the case, if nothing changes after scanning the CDs, sadly, that means these resources are not compatible or available in the current version of Logos.

We work pretty hard to keep the software backwards-compatible with old resource files (even ones produced by other companies in the past!), so I'm pretty surprised to hear this.

Do you have the file GS_GTJ.lbxlls on your computer?

If not, try downloading https://resources.logoscdn.com/lls_12.40.1030/2010-03-12T00_53_17Z/GS_GTJ.lbxlls putting it in a folder on your computer, and typing "scan C:\Path\To\That\Folder" into the Logos command box to import it into your software.

Second, I really object to dividing people between "professionals" and "others" in the way this is being done. Stop treating lay people as dumb. Stop treating them as "second class." I've left four churches in the Knoxville area because I was told: "theology belongs in a classroom, not in the pew," "God doesn't call smart people," and "you cannot build a big church if you expect the average person in the pew to be smart, and we want to save as many people as possible, so we want to build a big church." 

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I don't think that's the driving factor. Take my situation. I'm an elder/teacher in my local church. I prepare my own lessons. I write position papers. I meet with a lot of people about any number of theological/doctrinal questions and concerns.

My wife also serves in our local congregation. She teaches kids, disciples women, serves on Sunday mornings, speaks on panels, etc.

We both are group leaders.

She loves deep bible studies.

I love deep bible studies.

She doesn't use Logos.

I use it every day.

I've tried to get her to use it like I do, but she's completely content using her printed resources and other online study tools - those get her 95% of the way to her needs.

I've been a Logos user since Logos 4 and have gotten most feature upgrades along the way to Logos 10. When this sale/subscription was announced, the first thing I did was get the Logos 10 Full Feature upgrade, then subbed to the "Pro" tier for future feature updates. 

The first thing my wife did was say to me "yup, that makes sense for you."

Nobody is treating either of us as dumb. Neither of us are on staff, neither of us has a seminary education. Both of us have 25+ years in service to a local body, and both of us desperately desire to grow in our faith and knowledge.

That means something completely different to both of us as our contexts are very different.

Personally, I love the tiered approach. The "Max" tier has stuff I'd probably enjoy but would likely never really use outside of niche situations. The "Premium" tier isn't quite enough for what I want. I have friends who need the "Max" tier. I have friends who don't need anything more than the "Premium" tier, and I have friends who are perfectly content with the free version and a few purchased resources.

It's not about "thinking I'm dumb", it's "allowing me to get the stuff I want without paying for stuff I don't need."

The hardest part about that was convincing myself I didn't "need" Max...hehe

Just my $0.02

I contacted Faithlife's support regarding all of this.  They confirmed that I had these resources unlocked, and I provided proof to them that I had access to only some of those journals now but not all of them (I provided screenshots of the resources I could access in the library, screenshots of resources not showing up in the library when I type in the resource name in the search field for the library, and I provided them the Logos version 2 files of the journals that I could not access and that were not converted for later versions of Logos).  After back and forth e-mails over a span of a few months, Faithlife's support finally told me the following:

Keep in mind not all the resources that were available in Logos 2 will be compatible with the current software. As this seems to be the case, if nothing changes after scanning the CDs, sadly, that means these resources are not compatible or available in the current version of Logos.

We work pretty hard to keep the software backwards-compatible with old resource files (even ones produced by other companies in the past!), so I'm pretty surprised to hear this.

Do you have the file GS_GTJ.lbxlls on your computer?

If not, try downloading https://resources.logoscdn.com/lls_12.40.1030/2010-03-12T00_53_17Z/GS_GTJ.lbxlls putting it in a folder on your computer, and typing "scan C:\Path\To\That\Folder" into the Logos command box to import it into your software.

The theological journal resources that did not convert or apparently were not converted from Logos 2 to newer format, thus that I don't have access to yet are unlocked, are the following (I'll provide the names of the Logos 2 format files)...

• GS_BSAC.LSF (a compilation of Bibliotheca Sacra journals before 1955)
• GS_EMJ.LSF (a compilation of Emmaus Journals)
• GS_JCA.LSF (a compilation of Journal of Christian Apologetics journals)
• GS_MTJ.LSF (a compilation of Michigan Theological Journals)
• GS_WTJ.LSF (a compilation of Westminster Theological Journals)

Each of these journals from the Galaxie Software collection I purchased over 20 years ago are unlocked on my account and were accessible in Logos 2 and Libronix, but not accessible in the current Logos. 

The journals that did convert and are accessible in the current Logos are the following...

• A compilation of Bibliotheca Sacra journals from 1955-1995
• A compilation of Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society
• A compilation of Trinity Journals
• A compilation of Grace Theological Journals
• A compilation of Master's Seminary Journals

Each of these journals came from the same Galaxie Software collection, are unlocked on my account just like the others above, were accessible in Logos 2 and Libronix, and are still accessible in the current Logos.

Each of these journals from the Galaxie Software collection I purchased over 20 years ago are unlocked on my account and were accessible in Logos 2 and Libronix, but not accessible in the current Logos. 

Seems to me that the right thing to do here would be for Logos to grant access to those who legitimately own earlier versions of books/resources. This would be consistent with the mantra that we "never lose access to resources that you own." It's a principle that already applies to, say, updates to other existing resources, such as Bible translations.

• GS_BSAC.LSF (a compilation of Bibliotheca Sacra journals before 1955)
• GS_EMJ.LSF (a compilation of Emmaus Journals)
• GS_JCA.LSF (a compilation of Journal of Christian Apologetics journals)
• GS_MTJ.LSF (a compilation of Michigan Theological Journals)
• GS_WTJ.LSF (a compilation of Westminster Theological Journals)

Do you still have those files (and the corresponding LIX files)?

Re-reading your previous post, I assume that you do, and you've tried to "scan" them in, but it doesn't work? I know that LSF files should work, but even I don't have access to these files (for testing) so I can't confirm that.

Unfortunately, they were produced by a third party (who produced and sold that CD) and I don't think we have the source material to convert and update them. You would need to contact Galaxie Software and see if they ever produced a LBXLLS version of these resources. We do support all resource files that we've sold, but we can't necessarily support files that were produced and sold completely independently by a different vendor. I understand that will be disappointing to hear. (This is one of the reasons we stopped licensing our resource production tools to third parties and brought all resource production in-house, so that this kind of problem could no longer happen.)

Good news: I was able to find one of those files on an old network share. It "scans" in and loads just fine.

So if you pull those resources off your old CDs, I think you should be able to use them in your current version Logos.

It won't have all the features of current Logos Research Editions, but all the text should be present and searchable, the Bible references work, etc.

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate Bradley and his posts. 

He's always very helpful, and even, as seen above, is willing to go beyond what might be expected. 

I completely agree with your comments about Bradley. I wanted to write something along these lines about his helpfulness although, probably wouldn’t have been as good as yours. So I’m happy to join in!

(I’m not commenting/endorsing on the snake in the grass part. I just wanted to recognize Bradley)

Good news: I was able to find one of those files on an old network share. It "scans" in and loads just fine

Interestingly, this collection is one that is still currently available: https://www.logos.com/product/4615/emmaus-journal

Good news: I was able to find one of those files on an old network share. It "scans" in and loads just fine

Interestingly, this collection is one that is still currently available: https://www.logos.com/product/4615/emmaus-journal

That's a set of fifteen resources (one per volume) that I think Galaxie might have originally produced, but that we brought in-house and updated. (The files are GS_EMJ_01.logos4, GS_EMJ_02.logos4, etc.)

The resource mentioned by the previous poster is GS_EMJ.LSF/LIX, which was also produced by Galaxie but perhaps never updated by them even to the Libronix format (let alone Logos 4). It looks like that one file might be equivalent to GS_EMJ_01 through the first half of GS_EMJ_08, but I'm not completely sure.

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate Bradley and his posts. 

He's always very helpful, and even, as seen above, is willing to go beyond what might be expected. 

100% agree with you Donnie. 

Good news: I was able to find one of those files on an old network share. It "scans" in and loads just fine

Interestingly, this collection is one that is still currently available: https://www.logos.com/product/4615/emmaus-journal

That's a set of fifteen resources (one per volume) that I think Galaxie might have originally produced, but that we brought in-house and updated. (The files are GS_EMJ_01.logos4, GS_EMJ_02.logos4, etc.)

The resource mentioned by the previous poster is GS_EMJ.LSF/LIX, which was also produced by Galaxie but perhaps never updated by them even to the Libronix format (let alone Logos 4). It looks like that one file might be equivalent to GS_EMJ_01 through the first half of GS_EMJ_08, but I'm not completely sure.

Thank you very much for your assistance regarding this.  When I originally tried scanning the location that had my .LSF files, it turned out that I didn't copy the .LIX files within that location at that time.  So with that said, on an older laptop running Libronix, I managed to find a directory containing all of my old Logos 2 files, including the .LIX files for the theological journals (I copied all of that content years ago over from CD-ROMs that I ended up throwing away, and fortunately I still had that content on an old laptop).  I was then then able to scan them into my Logos library afterward, and now I have access to all my journals.

Thank you again for your help.  Greatly appreciated.

Interesting - I have emails from this thread that do not show up on the actual  thread - is someone deleting posts?

It does look as though two of the posts were edited after the emails were sent, but one post is non-existent

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate Bradley and his posts. 

He's always very helpful, and even, as seen above, is willing to go beyond what might be expected. 

100% agree with you Donnie. 

I just wanted to say how much I appreciate Bradley and his posts. 

He's always very helpful, and even, as seen above, is willing to go beyond what might be expected. 

100% agree with you Donnie. 

I agree too 100%.

Interesting - I have emails from this thread that do not show up on the actual  thread - is someone deleting posts?

It does look as though two of the posts were edited after the emails were sent, but one post is non-existent

Two likely explanations:

1. The poster deleted it themselves.

2. It was an egregious post that was reported and Faithlife deleted it.

Interesting - I have emails from this thread that do not show up on the actual  thread - is someone deleting posts?

It does look as though two of the posts were edited after the emails were sent, but one post is non-existent

Two likely explanations:

1. The poster deleted it themselves.

2. It was an egregious post that was reported and Faithlife deleted it.

Option 1 is likely with the post that is missing - Option 2 would be amazing if it happened as they did nothing with users being referred to as Satanic when it was reported.

Interesting - I have emails from this thread that do not show up on the actual  thread - is someone deleting posts?

It does look as though two of the posts were edited after the emails were sent, but one post is non-existent

Two likely explanations:

1. The poster deleted it themselves.

2. It was an egregious post that was reported and Faithlife deleted it.

Option 1 is likely with the post that is missing - Option 2 would be amazing if it happened as they did nothing with users being referred to as Satanic when it was reported.

But then again.... Question Logos, speak against decisions that impact your investment and/or have a "negative" view and you can be disparaged, disrespected and insulted without issue.... Not a peep from Logos or Forum "MVPS" towards those treating other users that way, but they'll jump on someone who dares speak against Logos....

Interesting - I have emails from this thread that do not show up on the actual  thread - is someone deleting posts?

It does look as though two of the posts were edited after the emails were sent, but one post is non-existent

Two likely explanations:

1. The poster deleted it themselves.

2. It was an egregious post that was reported and Faithlife deleted it.

Option 1 is likely with the post that is missing - Option 2 would be amazing if it happened as they did nothing with users being referred to as Satanic when it was reported.

But then again.... Question Logos, speak against decisions that impact your investment and/or have a "negative" view and you can be disparaged, disrespected and insulted without issue.... Not a peep from Logos or Forum "MVPS" towards those treating other users that way, but they'll jump on someone who dares speak against Logos....

Ok, I'll bite. It's probably not wise to engage, but you are touching a topic where users may come here with very different experience from other places. In this side-branch of the thread you are discussing missing posts, censorship and treatment of users. What still continues to amaze me: 

Question Logos, speak against decisions that impact your investment and/or have a "negative" view and you ...

Normally, no one "jumps at" users expressing critique or a general hermeneutic of suspicion against Logos. There may be reactions - sometimes people might dare to bring an alternative viewpoint, sometimes even based on years of experience with the product and the company. MVPs may do so as well as other regulars, since MVPs are not the forum police, but users with some experience. Of course, having people disagree with one's point of view is not a nice feeling, but very rarely are people disparaged, disrespected or insulted. It happens (most often in theological rather than product-specific questions). Often MVPs are the ones calling out such behavior, trying to de-escalate and asking people to come back to forum civilty. Very rude and inflaming posts may be taken down (or threads closed) by Logos employees, but there must be massive insults to other users for this to happen - there are only very few instances per year, if any. This on the other hand means that posts will stay up where critique is answered by another user and both parties feel themselves in the right and attacked by the other party. So I concur that Option 2 is very unlikely here.  

Interesting - I have emails from this thread that do not show up on the actual  thread - is someone deleting posts?

It does look as though two of the posts were edited after the emails were sent, but one post is non-existent

Two likely explanations:

1. The poster deleted it themselves.

2. It was an egregious post that was reported and Faithlife deleted it.

Option 1 is likely with the post that is missing - Option 2 would be amazing if it happened as they did nothing with users being referred to as Satanic when it was reported.

But then again.... Question Logos, speak against decisions that impact your investment and/or have a "negative" view and you can be disparaged, disrespected and insulted without issue.... Not a peep from Logos or Forum "MVPS" towards those treating other users that way, but they'll jump on someone who dares speak against Logos....

Ok, I'll bite. It's probably not wise to engage, but you are touching a topic where users may come here with very different experience from other places. In this side-branch of the thread you are discussing missing posts, censorship and treatment of users. What still continues to amaze me: 

Question Logos, speak against decisions that impact your investment and/or have a "negative" view and you ...

... will find your post visible for the whole world to see, not censored or taken out. This thread is proof of it. Censorship is not a thing here. Usually such posts will be treated with respect, answered very patiently by other users or by Logos employees, and taken as valuable (if negative) feedback. Even people with a bad attitude receive help and support. Posts that are deleted in this forum other than by the user themselves are clearly identifiable spam or technical issues like five times the same post.

Normally, no one "jumps at" users expressing critique or a general hermeneutic of suspicion against Logos. There may be reactions - sometimes people might dare to bring an alternative viewpoint, sometimes even based on years of experience with the product and the company. MVPs may do so as well as other regulars, since MVPs are not the forum police, but users with some experience. Of course, having people disagree with one's point of view is not a nice feeling, but very rarely are people disparaged, disrespected or insulted. It happens (most often in theological rather than product-specific questions). Often MVPs are the ones calling out such behavior, trying to de-escalate and asking people to come back to forum civilty. Very rude and inflaming posts may be taken down (or threads closed) by Logos employees, but there must be massive insults to other users for this to happen - there are only very few instances per year, if any. This on the other hand means that posts will stay up where critique is answered by another user and both parties feel themselves in the right and attacked by the other party. So I concur that Option 2 is very unlikely here.  

 

You can have your view - as others have posted similar opinions to mine, that some views are unwelcome and slights or negative comments towards those views are ignored, but negative views towards Logos are indeed jumped on....

The posts in the emails tied to this thread are evidence of such - a user happened to express that he felt as though some within Logos seemed a little suspicious like a snake in the grass....or a sly fox plotting..... A valid personal opinion, whether any of us agree or not....

Yet that user was met with the typical response from some (It's drama. painted a theatrical scene, quite a leap from reality - from Aaron Sauer) Those sarcastic comments are indeed jumping on someone for having a opinion that is not agreed to!

And of course MJ tossed in her now deleted sarcasm as well - the post was edited, as was Aaron's, but it's a prime example of not all views or opinions being tolerated. Also the hypocrisy is evident as neither condemned the insinuation that disagreeing with Logos or Mark is Satanic, as a matter of fact not a single MVP addressed it and mentioned the Forum Guidelines, which I have seen done through the years... There are plenty of other "slams" directed towards those who question the status quo or speak against decisions that we see as detrimental to our investments....

But when the same complain about lack of response, features, etc... It's not griping, being childish, silly or Satanic.... 

You either see it or you don't....

Most of us have no problem with contrarian views to our own, but we expect to not be insulted when expressing ours.

Ok, I'll bite. It's probably not wise to engage, but you are touching a topic where users may come here with very different experience from other places. In this side-branch of the thread you are discussing missing posts, censorship and treatment of users.

Where did I say anything about censorship? Unless you are insinuating that from my mention of the way those who have "negative" views are treated....

And if it is based on my wondering about deleted posts - if it was deleted after being reported due to the content, my question would have been why that was deleted, but not the reported Satanic post

... my question would have been why that was deleted, but not the reported Satanic post

Well, that's easy. You see, satin critic theology is not the same as satan critic theology.  But I would agree, 'in the old days' the MVPs would have piled on. 

Thank you very much for your assistance regarding this.  When I originally tried scanning the location that had my .LSF files, it turned out that I didn't copy the .LIX files within that location at that time.  So with that said, on an older laptop running Libronix, I managed to find a directory containing all of my old Logos 2 files, including the .LIX files for the theological journals (I copied all of that content years ago over from CD-ROMs that I ended up throwing away, and fortunately I still had that content on an old laptop).  I was then then able to scan them into my Logos library afterward, and now I have access to all my journals.

Thank you again for your help.  Greatly appreciated.

Glad to hear you've got it working now!

Just to be clear: you are responsible for backing up those resource files and transferring them to any new computer you purchase. While we do have your licenses (from the LLS 2.x days) backed up to our servers in the cloud, we don't have those resource files available for download from our servers. Please burn them to a CD-ROM, upload them to Google Drive, or make some other backup of them.

The title of this thread is "Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos," and began with Mark Barnes (Logos) posting on 6 March 2024 about the new subscription model.

I think we can all agree that the discussion that followed has drifted off topic and gone down a number of rabbit holes since then. To put it mildly.

It would help everyone if we could stick to the original topic, or if there are other important issues, simply start a new thread.

Just sayin'

I fully agree.  I get an email every time someone replies, and I want that because I want to hear what people say on this one topic, not the rabbit holes.

My only concern is whether or not my Logos 10 will be cut off in the future.  

I want to be able to use my Logos in places where there is no internet.  I have already run into this problem with other programs.  They have stopped running when I am in places where I can not "confirm" my identity even though I have had the program since it was originally loaded with a hard disk.

So as long as I can keep running Logos 10 offline, subscriptions are okay with me. ]Many of the features that require constant updating, I haven't learned to use yet].

Mark, thank you for the detailed explanation. I have a suggestion. With so many apps going to the subscription model, many of us are facing subscription fatigue. May I humbly but urgently ask that you consider including Logos in Setapp? Logos will still receive a subscription for each person who uses the app in Setup and would likely pick up new customers that would be missed otherwise. 

I think there are two problems here.

I know what Logos has promised in relation to existing resources. I also know what has happened to these promises by every other company moving to a subscription model. My experience with Logos over the years does not encourage me to think: "they're different than other companies."

Edit -- the naming used to describe access to existing resources is Legacy Fallback. For anyone who isn't in IT, "legacy" means that which costs you money but doesn't add value, and hence is not going to be supported in the future, and "fallback" means that which you use when nothing else works as a temporary solution. The naming is indicative of what is coming in the future, regardless of what is being promised today.

I am also worried about buying and accessing resources released in the future without a subscription. A new set of journals come out every year. How long will I be able to buy and access them without a subscription? I suspect the answer is: "until we change the book format to support some new AI sermon-writing thingie, and then all new books will be in that format, and you'll be forced to buy a subscription to get the updated software that works with this new format."

If Logos had a basic set of tools supported only by ongoing book purchases including search and "cited by," I would buy that. All the AI sermon writing, prayer journal (which is private and shouldn't be in Logos in the first place), sermon notes (again, private, and shouldn't be kept in an insecure piece of software like Logos), and the rest are just not interesting. I'd rather keep those things in a format that I don't lose if I ever stop using Logos, and in software managed by folks who take my privacy and security seriously. 

I'm not interested in a subscription to get new features. If I'm forced to buy a subscription to continue purchasing updated and new books, I'll have to rethink using Logos at all.

Subscription fatigue is real.

Shalom Russ,

I am also worried about buying and accessing resources released in the future without a subscription.

This is what Mark Barnes wrote on page 1 of this thread:

With books, it’s different. The content of books isn’t continually improved—once they’re published, they’re done. And while we bear small ongoing costs to allow you to download and interact with your books, those costs are orders of magnitude lower than that of AI and similar services. Therefore, you will still be able to buy permanent access to Logos libraries and any other books from our catalog. In the future, we may add rental options for those who want it, but we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling perpetual licenses to books.

Subscription fatigue is real.

I am not an IT professional but I get the impression that "traditional" pc software (i.e. that will work offline) is increasingly losing ground to SAAS. For example, the church management system my church uses has been cloud based since 2011 and access to digital hymnals is also often on the basis of a yearly subscription. 

In general I do not like subscriptions but Logos (Connect) is one of the few exceptions. 

With books, it’s different. The content of books isn’t continually improved—once they’re published, they’re done. And while we bear small ongoing costs to allow you to download and interact with your books, those costs are orders of magnitude lower than that of AI and similar services. Therefore, you will still be able to buy permanent access to Logos libraries and any other books from our catalog. In the future, we may add rental options for those who want it, but we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling perpetual licenses to books.

Edit -- the naming used to describe access to existing resources is Legacy Fallback. For anyone who isn't in IT, "legacy" means that which costs you money but doesn't add value, and hence is not going to be supported in the future, and "fallback" means that which you use when nothing else works as a temporary solution. The naming is indicative of what is coming in the future, regardless of what is being promised today.

Counterpoint: that's a specialised meaning of the word from the IT domain (as you've admitted) that you're reading into the announcement.

In non-IT circles, it's much more often used to mean "something from the past with long-lasting impact". See "Legacy Standard Bible", "Logos 9 Legacy Libraries", "spiritual legacy", etc. Sometimes the plain meaning of the text is what's intended. 😀

So "legacy fallback" means, in your view, "that which will stand forever because it's the position you fall back to whenever all else fails." :-)

If FL were saying: "we're going to continue our current model and add additional features as part of a new subscription in addition to the current model," I'd say, "great, let's see what features might be useful." What they are saying instead is: "This is the new way. The old way is now the fallback. We think we will be able to support the old content forever based on our current financials, but the way we are going to support ourselves now is through subscription-based software and content."

I know a lot of people here love FL, and think FL is the greatest company on the face of the Earth, etc. My past experiences with FL as a company are negative enough that I don't consider FL any sort of "special organization."

My past experiences with FL as a company are negative enough that I don't consider FL any sort of "special organization."

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My past experiences with FL as a company are negative enough that I don't consider FL any sort of "special organization."

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Can't speak for Russ, but as a company they do have a history of bankruptcy (been awhile), opening new business lines and then laying off large chunks of employees, buying other companies, committing to churches, and then pulling out. Execution has always been a challenge for them. Legacy their fallback.

In the competitive landscape of Bible software companies (fewer and fewer remain), I firmly believe that Logos will continue to be the leader and thrive in the long run. This conviction is reflected not only in my words but also in my financial investment. I have confidence in the company's ability to innovate, adapt, and meet the evolving needs of its users, ensuring its survival and success in the market.

In the competitive landscape of Bible software companies (fewer and fewer remain), I firmly believe that Logos will continue to be the leader and thrive in the long run. This conviction is reflected not only in my words but also in my financial investment. I have confidence in the company's ability to innovate, adapt, and meet the evolving needs of its users, ensuring its survival and success in the market.

I don't know that I would call this market "competitive," and I'm not talking about financial survival ...Of course FL is going to "survive," at least until they are bought out at some point. I think Google is going to survive just fine, too, but I avoid their products. As a matter of record, I've spent well over $60k with FL across the years, so I'm not talking from inexperience or ignorance of FL as a company.

All I've said here is my experience is not universally positive, and I don't give FL some sort of "special pass." I don't just "trust" FL will not fall to the same motivations every other IT company I've seen go down this path fall to. I don't develop "relationships" with a companies the way many other people seem to.

Mark, thank you for the detailed explanation. I have a suggestion. With so many apps going to the subscription model, many of us are facing subscription fatigue. May I humbly but urgently ask that you consider including Logos in Setapp? Logos will still receive a subscription for each person who uses the app in Setup and would likely pick up new customers that would be missed otherwise. 

Setapp is not made for subscriptions like Logos and there is no way they would get nearly enough money from each subscription using such a platform.

Mark, thank you for the detailed explanation. I have a suggestion. With so many apps going to the subscription model, many of us are facing subscription fatigue. May I humbly but urgently ask that you consider including Logos in Setapp? Logos will still receive a subscription for each person who uses the app in Setup and would likely pick up new customers that would be missed otherwise. 

Setapp is not made for subscriptions like Logos and there is no way they would get nearly enough money from each subscription using such a platform.

I'm writing with feedback that you requested in your post and a couple questions regarding subscriptions. You said "We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you." I think the Legacy Fallback is a great solution. I regularly use sermon builder and sermon manager and am glad I own them as I have fully integrated with these and would want to know I own them for the long term, even if I stop subscription (I assume items like these are included). This is one reason I bought the full feature set and I would recommend to others who are only starting with Logos after transition. One question. I asked one a Logos affiliate whether there will be any free monthly books life Faithlife connect and they said Pro includes a 4th extra free book of the month (not from Classics series). Where do I access this? They also said subscription includes 5% storewide discount and 5% annual cash back. Are these automatically applied? Thanks!