Disappointed
Comments
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I'm not going to directly reply to any of the various points above, but I still want to be able to have Logos4 connected to the Internet, but keep control of where my user-content is.
At present, we have no backup, no control and no export.
For me, I still want Logos to add per-item sync controls and export to files (backup).
I have blocked my PC from connecting to the sync services at logos.com, so my content never copies offsite.
No - I'm not happy about this aspect of the application at all.
EDIT: Nothing above this line changed. Just new from here.
Well, somehow I think I replied to the last post on page 1 and never saw any of this 2nd page when I wrote above. DUMB!
So, I have not seen the posts, including Bob's just above.
I understand his points and comments. I just don't agree. I wish for sync control and backups to protect my user-content. Until then, for me the application is very limited as I am forced to do it Bob's way: Don't store my data in his application.
As a result, Logos4 has next-to-useless Notes etc, from my point of view. I like just about all the rest of the application.
(L3 never had these issues, as my data was on my disk. To lose or backup myself. My data. My problem. My control.)
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The proposed solution may be the wrong one. Selective sync risks horrible technical problems, and lots of extra confusion. Maybe a special "local encryption" password is a better idea. We need to ...Bob,
(Sounds like you never finished that line above: "We need to ...")
Currently, Logos4 has a three-way control for feedback, per graphic below. I love it. I can turn it on or off. I'm just fine with that. I love buttons and controls.
What some of us still are asking for, is the same for sync of User-Content.
A three-way control of "Sync User-Content to Logos Online: [ Always | By-Item | Never ]" would be just fine. Some might be happy with just "[ Always | Never ]" which we don't really have at present, without giving up the many other things we might want to keep.
Maybe four-way: "Sync User-Content to Logos Online: [ Always | By-Item (Default YES) | By-Item (Default NO) | Never ]".
(New items would take the default YES or NO, so most people could set and forget.)
For the four-way, most users have "Always". A few of us are using "Never". I would rather use "By Item (Default YES)" and and turn some off but leave the rest working.
I welcome and look forward to what new things your company can bring. I expect I will like many or most of them. I just wish control of my data.
As to the complex UI. If a user selects "Always", or "Never" you don't need to ever display the "Sync: YES | NO" UI on anything. Only if someone selects to have control does the UI need to display and allow control of the YES/NO flag for that item in the local database.
The way you suggest, most users will be happy to run with "Sync=Always", and don't need to ever see or care about the flag. Just do as it is now. I don't think anyone is asking you to break great features, or take anything away from those that like a given thing.
A few days ago, I signed into the web version of "Logos4" and noticed it had some of my older Collections. It was great. But it had none of my new ones as I'm running with "Sync=Never" so your servers have old data. I would much rather be live, but exclude a few items when it suits me.
I hear you when you say its low priority to Logos. I just see it different.
Thanks for your time.
Jim.
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Simply my point of view here - but if we expect more of Logos because they are a Christian company, shouldn't we also expect more of ourselves because we are Christian?
YES !!!
Fred
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Bob closed this request,
And that's just here in the forums. I've also got phone calls and direct emails. Just today, I'm A) deceptive, and
incompetent, according to correspondents, because the Mac release isn't finished. (One writer helpfully suggested that there are lots of Mac programmers available if I'd just hire and pay them. :-) )I'm not complaining -- I'm just sharing my day. It's a good life; fast growth and passionate users are wonderful problems to have.
We are listening. Always. And in the end, we're going to (largely) do what you (collectively) tell us, no matter how contrary to my plan it may be.
A) It's a low priority because it's an easy work-around. We've still got "you promised!" features missing, so a problem like "I don't want you to read my prayer list" seems like something you can work around easily by not storing it in our software, at the loss of none of our core Bible study functionality. Coding it would delay a lot of other stuff more people seem even more anxious for; not coding it requires very little sacrifice for the people who care.
The proposed solution may be the wrong one. Selective sync risks horrible technical problems, and lots of extra confusion. Maybe a special "local encryption" password is a better idea. We need to C) There are future plans not yet revealed that could change people's minds. An iPhone prayer list app / feature. Ability to edit prayer lists on a web site. Ability to have a shared prayer list for a small group or church. I'd prefer we don't get everyone turning off notes and prayer list syncing before they see how cool it is to have their notes on the iPhone, on our web-based Bible, etc.
Sorry this is so long... but I hope it helps you see why we're responding as we are.
-- Bob
Welcome to my world we should commiserate some time
. Like you I get called all sorts of things everyday from people spending thousands to millions of dollars. Every dollar is important to them so I can absolutely emphasive with them. The part that you indicate Logos is always listening is what I'm suggesting that you are giving the impression you are NOT doing from my experience. Here's an example of our situation:Option #1
Privacy feature on Uservoice. It gets 100+ votes. Logos marks it complete and puts a comment, turn off internet use and get dvds. We'll skip the fact that that solution doesn't seem to work for some people per the other thread but it wasn't hitting the mark on what was requested.
Option #2
Leave it open and just put your comment in there where this is an alternative.
Option #2
Let it sit OPEN and see how many votes it gets so that you can SEE how important it is.
Option #3
Leave it open and put in a comment that Logos isn't implementing this at this time,
Option #4
Let it sit OPEN and put a simple comment. Logos has no plans at this time to implement this feature but weill re-evaluate this at a later date after Logos 3 parity is achieved.
NONE of these options means there are resources or anything else or any other guarantee, its just to see what the feedback is and how important people think they are.
Option #1 gives me the impression you're not listening in two different senses. The first is passive listening where you're just letting voices count, but the second is more important from a sales AND customer service side which is active listening. Your "solution" didn't address some of the concerns.
The last 3 options while it doesn't commit to anything at least gives me the impression you're listening. Option #2a might even suggest to me Logos is active listening.
When I look at my priority list I have a list of features that are defined by "some" criteria. When I have "extra" resources (haha) and I need to put more "features" on that list I usually go to my secondary list of features that we've never committed to. I NEVER have a list of completed features (there's no point) to evaluate and see if it should move forward, by definition they're done. When you move something over to the "complete" category you've effectively put it out of your mind and you don't appear to be open to viewing it.
Here's an interesting thought now. Russ started another feature on uservoice, I again voted for it and it looks like someone else did. How will you handle that one?
Again, just my thoughts.
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I probably should not jump in on this, but after following this thread since it started, I have decided to do so. In the interest of full disclosure, I am one of those enthusiastic (maybe even passionate) users of L4 Bob referred to. I am not a software engineer or programmer; I am a preacher and teacher of God's word who loves the advantage of studying with, IMHO the best bible study software on the market.
When I made the transition from L3 to L4 I spent a couple of days wondering if I had made the right decision. This uncertainty was due mainly to my lack of knowledge and partly due to some of the features that were not available in the first release of L4. Since that time I have learned much more about how to use the program and the features continue to improve with each release.
For many months on these forums I have seen people make many good suggestions and I've seen logos respond in one way or another to each. Many of those suggestions are still pending (including a couple of my own) and some may never be implemented. I'm okay with that. What I believe will happen (and I think Bob's post supports this belief) is that Logos will continue to improve the software and introduce innovative, useful tools and features to help their target market be better at what we do. I also underdstand that they are running a business and have a long term vision, with a plan they believe will help them achieve their goals. I have nothing but praise for their business model and will continue to support them with my feedback and my wallet.
I will not try to defend Bob when it comes comes to whether or not he and his company are treated fairly by the comments of those who have posted here and others as he has demonstrated he can do that much better than I could. I will say that many of the negative comments I have read are simply not my experience.
I spent more than 20 years running a service business and can tell you that many of my customers were difficult and demanding at times. Some of them were my best customers and best references, even though they were always complaining. I also had some whom I simply could not satisfy because their priorities simply did not fit the vision and business model of the company. They usually went somewhere else, and on some occassions came back when they discovered that no one could meet their expectations.
It sounds like the privacy concern is something that is on Bob's radar and there is a plan to address it down the road. It also sounds like they are focusing their resources developing some of the other features and services. I am glad to hear that because there are a number of things (printing, PBB's, sentence diagramming, etc.) I would like to see done before these other suggestions (even those I have made and support) are developed.
Just my two (okay, maybe ten[;)]) cents
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I think that there are lessons to be learned by everybody throughout this thread. I am sure that the company can learn a few things as well as the very strong supporters of Logos, the very dissatisfied customer and the average consumer.
I would describe myself as an average consumer. I could live with or without Logos, even though I do enjoy the program a lot there are others out there that meet my needs just as well.
Why do I say this? Because as an average consumer I have learned valuable lessons over the years when it comes to software. 1) Always start off small and not go all in (money wise) on a product that you are not yet familiar enough with to know the positives and the negatives about. I started off small with Logos and upgraded/built my library over time. By the time I had invested hundreds or thousands of dollars, I knew what was there. If privacy or other issues were such a major concern for me, Logos would have never gotten this much money out of me and I would have a financial out. I hear so many times with this and other software "I would quit using it but I have so much money invested in it....". Why would I blindly invest so much money into a program that I am not familiar with just to regret it? That was a very hard lesson for me to learn. 2) Program upgrades are not always program upgrades, just a different version. There are several people here who have decided to revert back to Logos 3 for various reasons. Each person has their own list. The word "upgrade" can be very subjective based on you and your needs. If you invested a lot of money into Logos 3, it is still usable and some claim even better.
In summary, lessons need to be learned by everyone and we must accept the fact that we sometimes make bad decisions buying software that we don't need or like. I have been very guilty of this in the past but I don't blame the software company, I blame myself for inadequate research of the product and failing to use cheap packages or the duration of free demo periods to fully understand the pros and cons of the software so that I can invest in another option if necessary. As I have learned to be a good steward with the money and more picky about what I buy for my computer, I have discovered I am less stressed out over them.
Just my experiences. "Buyer beware" applies to all companies, whether they produce Christian products or not. A business is just that, a business. It is going to offer great upgrade offers, incentives and sales to make money. Every business does this. Sure hearing "$50,000 worth of books for $1,000 is a great incentive but I must evaluate whether or not I really need it. I just had to make a hard decision two days ago concerning upgrading Logos.
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At present, we have no backup, no control and no export.
Hi Jim, I am not stepping into the fray here and nor do I wish to diminish the personal concerns a few folks are raising. I just had one technical question for you. I use a Mac (so you will have to pardon my ignorance about PC solutions). On my Mac I backup my entire installation of Logos using the built in feature called "Time Machine". If anything were to happen, I could easily click a button and my entire Logos installation (books, notes, layouts etc) would be restored exactly as I last used them. Does Windows not have a backup feature that works? is there not a third party solution for backup? (NOTE: back in the day I used Norton Backup, but that was 10 years ago and I think they stopped supporting that product??).Blessings,
Joe
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Joe,
yes, there are 3rd party solutions, I use Acronis True image. I "time machine" my win box back about once a month or two.
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Hi Joe,
Yes - I can backup my entire PC, and I have two different packages installed that give me levels of full or selective backups. I can also run command-line or scripted copies of entire directory trees. Thats not the problem.
The real issue is that I don't have control over, and hence don't own my user data. If I mess up and delete a note in error, or kill a collection rule, or something goes wrong, there is no official recovery method.
I can't import a single lost Note from last week. If I deleted it in error, the copy on the Logos servers is no use. We don't even know if its already long-gone, or still there and just tagged for delete in 30 days.
If I want to restore a note I deleted 12 days ago, I can only return the whole installation back to that date. I can't keep all my other changes since then.
Sync to the Logos servers has its place, and its a great idea. But we need a backup and to have back control of our user-content.
I can find any number of forum posts where someone deleted a collection by mistake . Or Logos tech support deleted all the users content. Or another user that now has two of everything. We don't actually have any backups. (V3 has files we controlled and could backup/restore)
Commands for export and import will fix it. I could export my Notes every few days, and let my file backup software take care of those files. If something goes wrong, I can read some wiki, work out how to pick out the right file, and import it back into Logos4 (and hence the Logos servers too - If I turn syncs on).
Because the databases "belong" to the application in undocumented ways, i don't actually have my own data. We need export/backup commands.
Logos4 already knows how to import v3 Notes and a few other things. Its part of the way there already.
There are comments that the internal database stuff is often stored as a large XML string in the database fields. It can't really be too hard to export them out to files.
If I can't backup my own data, its not my data!
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The irony is, I setup UserVoice as an experiment in listening. I didn't intend to answer/close anything, (didn't want to influence/color the voting), but was pressured into responding by people on the newsgroups and inside Logos. I guess it was a successful experiment. :-) Now it seems like an important part of our feedback loop, when it started as a late night "try our free UserVoice feature!" experiment.
To Bob Pritchett:
I think uservoice is a great idea that benefits users & Logos alike. I don't have any expectations of being empowered to steer the company (as some de facto share holder) whichever direction my whims take me. Thank you for uservoice and please keep reading our input.To everybody else:
I am sometimes amazed at how an individual user can make demands on the company when "100 votes" on uservoice is only one raindrop in the 100,000's of Logos users who have not expressed support for an issue. I liken it to Bob Pritchett giving me a ride in his Lamborghini and I have the nerve to change his radio station without asking. It is not reasonable to demand Caterpillar corporation to sell mopeds just because their yellow paint scheme would look cool on one.The need to reproduce a corporate environment to run Bible software borders on looney. I should know because I've run Logos on two 36" monitors on my PictureTel video conferencing setup from my GM days. It's really cool but very unnecessary.
There are mega corporations that do use distributed systems. GM has been with CISCO long before their EDS acquisition. Amazon has billions of dollars at risk "in the cloud." Those corporations that abhor cloud based computing aren't trying to synch notes, prayer lists and sermon preparation. They have data that really is more sensitive. I know each of us thinks our data is the most important in the world but in reality, hardly anybody else cares to snoop it. Unless, .....
What are you people actually preaching and praying about that needs so much secrecy?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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At present, we have no backup, no control and no export.
I'd offer you dropbox but it's in "the cloud."
There is an old fashioned thing we called RAID that you can run without internet , clouds or PictureTel steups.. [;)] It even has selective file backup options.
With biometric security, even your wife can't access your notes. You can pick up a fingerprint scanner as low as $15 now.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I'd offer you dropbox but it's in "the cloud."
There is an old fashioned thing we called RAID that you can run without internet , clouds or PictureTel steups..
It even has selective file backup options.With biometric security, even your wife can't access your notes. You can pick up a fingerprint scanner as low as $15 now.
I have no idea what this post is about, or what you are saying to me.
RAID is not a backup to protect from a deleted Collection rule. Nor is sync to cloud. A fingerprint reader wont let me export or backup my Logos user-content.
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What demands are people making? I'm saying it was closed where it doesn't make sense asking for an explanation and suggesting it could have been better handled doesn't seem outrageous to me. Are you suggesting that I'm not allowed to vote either or disagree?
Your argument of "only" 100 votes is silly because its been closed, no one knows how many votes it would have gotten since its been shutdown and even if it got 100,000 votes it still doesn't mean Logos would do anything about it.
Either uservoice is a valid voting mechanism that says its representative of the users or it isn't. Simple question for Logos. Is it or isn't it? If it is, then let it run. If it isn't, then I don't see the point of it. You can't have it both ways.
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I have no idea what this post is about, or what you are saying to me.
The original post is protesting Bob Pritchett's handling of a uservoice item "for a privacy feature." Susequent posts in this thread addressed turning off synchronization. (Hence, my joke about Dropbox as an option to replace Logos 4 cloud sync.)
Biometric scanners are a viable barrier to enhance security. They would have to cut off your finger to get past that one. (Hence, my suggestion for a fingerprint scanner.)
You already have a couple programs allowing incremental backup & restore. If you develop a thoughtful backup routine you can use the tools you have to accomplish your stated goals.
When I was in Michigan the file security protocol for Saginaw General Hospital was (aside from RAID) 2 daily backups. One copy was locked in the fireproof safe on location. The second backup was removed from the premises. No backups were destroyed for at least a week. If files were deleted or corrupted, we had ample notice and restored them.
I don't know how much time you spend generating new data in Logos or why your system is vulnerable to frequent data loss but Logos 3 still exceeds all your needs without the vulnerabilities.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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If I want to restore a note I deleted 12 days ago, I can only return the whole installation back to that date. I can't keep all my other changes since then.
Isn't this true of most database applications? Mind you, I do have my own work around on this - the same I have on other database app's. Back up the database and use a test harness or browser to extract my data and reinsert the "lost" data. Mind you, this is a big enough hassle that I need to be very motivated to recover the data.
I thoroughly agree that an export/import function is needed and am anxiously awaiting this promised feature. But given that this is a database app, how do you expect individual backups to work?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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WOW - So many different ideas ...
My "... I have no idea ... " comment was in regard to dropbox - which I have never heard of. And that RAID is not about backups. Nor is fingerprint readers.
My earlier main reply was to a specific point by Bob. And I offered how simple I think selective sync could be.
My later point was to a question Joe asked about being able to do a complete backup. Yes - but its all or nothing.
And yes - I understand the original point by Russ. Wanting to leave the question open. Clearly these matters are important to some of the users of Logos software.
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What demands are people making? I'm saying it was closed where it doesn't make sense asking for an explanation and suggesting it could have been better handled doesn't seem outrageous to me. Are you suggesting that I'm not allowed to vote either or disagree?
No. Vote as you please and disagree or not as you wish. Just don't expect the dissolution of uservoice because the creator doesn't wish to deliver what we clamor for. If I were going to tell Bob Pritchett what to do, I would have preferred he leave the item on uservoice as one more barometer of people's sentiments. But I certainly would not demand he terminate uservoice because he had "closed" further discussion of one issue.
My father-in-law was a nationally known artist. He painted a massive oil of an eagle that many expressed interest in purchasing. Each time an inquiry was made, he raised the price to discourage it's sale. Finally he listed it "NFS" (not-for-sale) to escape determined buyers. My wife inherited the painting on his passing. I look at Bob's closure of the uservoice item as tagging it "NFS" -- meaning this has been addressed and will not be implemented so move your focus to viable items.
This certainly does little for those who are determined to ask for what can not be granted. Bob could just hold that carrot out on a long stick and see how long we march towards it. His current response gives me hope that the other issues raised in uservoice actually do have some measure of viability. After all, Bob didn't close them.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Hi, I recognize there are other larger issues and like I said I was not trying to diminish those. I was just more curious if you had something that would create a backup of the specific files and it seems like that is possible on the PC side.Yes - I can backup my entire PC, and I have two different packages installed that give me levels of full or selective backups. I can also run command-line or scripted copies of entire directory trees. Thats not the problem.
The real issue is that I don't have control over, and hence don't own my user data.
Thanks
Joe
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Back up the database and use a test harness or browser to extract my data and reinsert the "lost" data.
Frequent backups are the easiest way to prevent data loss. But heroic efforts to salvage data have been successful even on a spindled, punctured floppy disk. Raw data recovery is not that difficult. But frequent backups is so simple it is unprofessional not to use them.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Option #1
Privacy feature on Uservoice. It gets 100+ votes. Logos marks it complete and puts a comment, turn off internet use and get dvds. We'll skip the fact that that solution doesn't seem to work for some people per the other thread but it wasn't hitting the mark on what was requested.
The silly irony here is that I didn't mean to "shut the idea down." As I mentioned, my plan is to just watch UserVoice, and I never intended to use it as a way to hear from Logos. User pressure, and internal pressure, forced me to start responding/commenting. In this particular case, someone inside Logos was annoyed by how many "unresolved" suggestions where sitting there, and emailed me a list of proposed comments/status changes. Which I just whipped through one night. I didn't realize I was ending your ability to vote on this, so I've now re-opened it and set it to "under review".
:-)
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Option #1
Privacy feature on Uservoice. It gets 100+ votes. Logos marks it complete and puts a comment, turn off internet use and get dvds. We'll skip the fact that that solution doesn't seem to work for some people per the other thread but it wasn't hitting the mark on what was requested.
The silly irony here is that I didn't mean to "shut the idea down." As I mentioned, my plan is to just watch UserVoice, and I never intended to use it as a way to hear from Logos. User pressure, and internal pressure, forced me to start responding/commenting. In this particular case, someone inside Logos was annoyed by how many "unresolved" suggestions where sitting there, and emailed me a list of proposed comments/status changes. Which I just whipped through one night. I didn't realize I was ending your ability to vote on this, so I've now re-opened it and set it to "under review".
:-)
Thank you very much. I can't ask for more than that. The offer to talk over the phone on this subject or any other customer subject is always open [B]
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Thank you, Bob!
:-)
Russ
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... my plan is to just watch UserVoice ... so I've now re-opened it and set it to "under review".
Thankyou Bob.
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This thread illustrates how unique Logos is in the business world. They really do listen. They really do care. What other company would put up with all the complaining and then respond so graciously? The patient responses of Bob reminds me of how many pastors are constantly criticized and maligned for their failure to make everyone happy. (Correction: criticized and maligned for not making the complainer happy!)
I suggest Logos make a "I Like Bob" bumper sticker with the Logos logo on it. Bob: seriously, thanks for being the man!
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This thread illustrates how unique Logos is in the business world. They really do listen. They really do care. What other company would put up with all the complaining and then respond so graciously? The patient responses of Bob reminds me of how many pastors are constantly criticized and maligned for their failure to make everyone happy. (Correction: criticized and maligned for not making the complainer happy!)
I suggest Logos make a "I Like Bob" bumper sticker with the Logos logo on it. Bob: seriously, thanks for being the man!
Agreed X 10
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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This thread illustrates how unique Logos is in the business world. They really do listen. They really do care. What other company would put up with all the complaining and then respond so graciously? The patient responses of Bob reminds me of how many pastors are constantly criticized and maligned for their failure to make everyone happy. (Correction: criticized and maligned for not making the complainer happy!)
I suggest Logos make a "I Like Bob" bumper sticker with the Logos logo on it. Bob: seriously, thanks for being the man!
Agreed!
[Y]
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This thread illustrates how unique Logos is in the business world. They really do listen. They really do care. What other company would put up with all the complaining and then respond so graciously? The patient responses of Bob reminds me of how many pastors are constantly criticized and maligned for their failure to make everyone happy. (Correction: criticized and maligned for not making the complainer happy!)
I suggest Logos make a "I Like Bob" bumper sticker with the Logos logo on it. Bob: seriously, thanks for being the man!
[Y][B]
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15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)
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