Official: Here's what's included/excluded from the Legacy Fallback License
After many, many, requests, I'm finally able to give more details on what is likely to be included and excluded from the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). I'm sorry it's taken so long.
As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.
The LFL perk will only be given to people who already own a Logos base package or feature set or otherwise qualify for one of the discounted subscription tracks. It won't be offered to new customers.
Some features will be excluded from that license, primarily those that are cloud or AI-based, as they have high ongoing costs that are covered by the subscription payments. Many of you have asked for a list of those exclusions.
The first LFL will not be issued until October 2026, and many more features will be added between now and then. This list only deals with current features (including early access features). If possible, we'll try to identify whether future features will likely be eligible for the LFL when they are released.
So, likely exclusions of current and early access features from the Legacy Fallback License are:
From Logos Premium and up:
- Early access features:
- Smart Search
- Smart Synopsis
- Help Center
- Summarization (including in search results)
- Bible Study Builder AI Questions
- Older features:
- Factbook Tags (apart from most tags in Bibles)
- Community Tags
- Fuzzy Bible Search
- Insert Media in Notes
- Bible Browser
- Atlas Tool
- Media Tool
- Assorted Media
From Logos Pro and up:
- Early access features:
- Sermon Assistant
- Older features:
- Print Library Catalog
- Sermon Manager Import
- Sermon Builder Popular Quotations Sidebar
- Text Comparison Interlinears
From Logos Max:
- Older features:
- Auto-Translation
- Lemma in Passage
- Morph Query Engine (this is different from Morph Search)
- Online Manuscript Dataset
If you already own any of these features, their presence on this list does NOT mean they will be taken away from you. It just means that people without these features will likely not have them granted to them via LFL.
Comments
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
The LFL perk will only be given to people who already own a Logos base package or feature set or otherwise qualify for one of the discounted subscription tracks. It won't be offered to new customers.
Smart imo to keep prices down for new customers. I have one question, however. Are there plans to make the LFL a purchasable product in the future? I think there may be some new customers who would like to purchase it as a back up plan while they can afford the cost in preparation for a possible future when they may not be able to maintain the subscription. Dropping from the full feature set to the free version would be a massive change, especially after one has gathered many years of experience.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
After many, many, requests, I'm finally able to give more details on what is likely to be included and excluded from the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). I'm sorry it's taken so long.
As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.
The LFL perk will only be given to people who already own a Logos base package or feature set or otherwise qualify for one of the discounted subscription tracks. It won't be offered to new customers.
Some features will be excluded from that license, primarily those that are cloud or AI-based, as they have high ongoing costs that are covered by the subscription payments. Many of you have asked for a list of those exclusions.
The first LFL will not be issued until October 2026, and many more features will be added between now and then. This list only deals with current features (including early access features). If possible, we'll try to identify whether future features will likely be eligible for the LFL when they are released.
So, likely exclusions of current and early access features from the Legacy Fallback License are:
From Logos Premium and up:
- Early access features:
- Smart Search
- Smart Synopsis
- Help Center
- Summarization (including in search results)
- Bible Study Builder AI Questions
- Older features:
- Factbook Tags (apart from most tags in Bibles)
- Community Tags
- Fuzzy Bible Search
- Insert Media in Notes
- Bible Browser
- Atlas Tool
- Media Tool
- Assorted Media
From Logos Pro and up:
- Early access features:
- Sermon Assistant
- Older features:
- Print Library Catalog
- Sermon Manager Import
- Sermon Builder Popular Quotations Sidebar
- Text Comparison Interlinears
From Logos Max:
- Older features:
- Auto-Translation
- Lemma in Passage
- Morph Query Engine (this is different from Morph Search)
- Online Manuscript Dataset
If you already own any of these features, their presence on this list does NOT mean they will be taken away from you. It just means that people without these features will likely not have them granted to them via LFL.
Thank you Mark. Are any of these not found in the Full Feature Set?
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Thanks Mark!!!
This should be helpful for those debating the subscription path or purchasing the L10 FFS first.
Will this and ongoing lists be incorporated with the Features file that you posted a while back. The ability to see all features side by side with the noted exclusions would also be beneficial for clarity.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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[Y]
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:After many, many, requests, I'm finally able to give more details on what is likely to be included and excluded from the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). I'm sorry it's taken so long.
As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.
The LFL perk will only be given to people who already own a Logos base package or feature set or otherwise qualify for one of the discounted subscription tracks. It won't be offered to new customers.
Some features will be excluded from that license, primarily those that are cloud or AI-based, as they have high ongoing costs that are covered by the subscription payments. Many of you have asked for a list of those exclusions.
The first LFL will not be issued until October 2026, and many more features will be added between now and then. This list only deals with current features (including early access features). If possible, we'll try to identify whether future features will likely be eligible for the LFL when they are released.
So, likely exclusions of current and early access features from the Legacy Fallback License are:
From Logos Premium and up:
- Early access features:
- Smart Search
- Smart Synopsis
- Help Center
- Summarization (including in search results)
- Bible Study Builder AI Questions
- Older features:
- Factbook Tags (apart from most tags in Bibles)
- Community Tags
- Fuzzy Bible Search
- Insert Media in Notes
- Bible Browser
- Atlas Tool
- Media Tool
- Assorted Media
From Logos Pro and up:
- Early access features:
- Sermon Assistant
- Older features:
- Print Library Catalog
- Sermon Manager Import
- Sermon Builder Popular Quotations Sidebar
- Text Comparison Interlinears
From Logos Max:
- Older features:
- Auto-Translation
- Lemma in Passage
- Morph Query Engine (this is different from Morph Search)
- Online Manuscript Dataset
If you already own any of these features, their presence on this list does NOT mean they will be taken away from you. It just means that people without these features will likely not have them granted to them via LFL.
Blessings in Christ.
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So after 2 years of subscribing.
Will I own
Print library
Preach modes (non ai)
Read aloud
All data sets in L10 full features upgrade
All features in the L10 full features upgrade
Can anyone help clarify
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In a quick comparison from the Subscription Configuration Doc posted by Mark, these appear to be the New Features (only those after the L10 FFS) one would gain with a Fallback License at this time. Mark please correct any error(s):
Premium Subscribers
Dynamic Toolbar
Dynamic Themes
Factbook Passage Study Features
Insights Sidebar
Related Books on Mobile
Related Passages Cards on Mobile
Bible Study Builder
Bible Study Builder Questions Dataset
Get Started Video Card
Pro Subscribers (Features Listed for Premium plus)
TBD
Max Subscribers (Features Listed for Premium and Pro plus)
TBD
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Berechiah said:
So after 2 years of subscribing.
Will I own
Print library
Preach modes (non ai)
Read aloud
All data sets in L10 full features upgrade
All features in the L10 full features upgrade
Can anyone help clarify
If you look at Mark's post of excluded Features, those listed under "Older Features" are the L10 FFS Features that you will not retain with a Fallback License - so if they are important to you - you'd need to consider the purchase of the L10 FFS. If you have purchased the L10 FFS, the Fallback exclusions do not apply to you - if you own the L10 FFS you will have the features regardless of subscribing or not.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
In a quick comparison from the Subscription Configuration Doc posted by Mark, these appear to be the New Features (only those after the L10 FFS) one would gain with a Fallback License at this time. Mark please correct any error(s):
I think that's correct on desktop, as things stand now (i.e., up until v37). On mobile, we've just released Sermon Builder and Sermon Manager for Android to beta, and those aren't on the exclusion list.
But there are likely to be another 17 releases between now and legacy fallback being issued, so who knows what else will be added to LFL between now and then.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
I think that's correct on desktop, as things stand now (i.e., up until v37).
Thanks for confirming Mark!
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:On mobile, we've just released Sermon Builder and Sermon Manager for Android to beta, and those aren't on the exclusion list.
This will be interesting to hear about.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:But there are likely to be another 17 releases between now and legacy fallback being issued, so who knows what else will be added to LFL between now and then.
Hopefully a lot of good LFL qualified Features and "options" like having the choice of Toolbars that you showed in the video [;)]
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
Hopefully a lot of good LFL qualified Features and "options" like having the choice of Toolbars that you showed in the video
One thing to consider is that it would be a significant and ongoing time investment. It may be easy to switch between them now, since the full feature set is still (barely) the most recently launched version. But going forward is an entirely different matter. With every update, both toolbars would likely have to be slightly tweaked to accommodate small changes as they roll out. This likely wouldn't be a profitable investment of their time.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
But going forward is an entirely different matter. With every update, both toolbars would likely have to be slightly tweaked to accommodate small changes as they roll out.
Very true. The planned (smiling) tab-colour customization choice on the new menu bar, might obviate subscribers wanting the old one.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Aaron Hamilton said:Frank Sauer said:
Hopefully a lot of good LFL qualified Features and "options" like having the choice of Toolbars that you showed in the video
One thing to consider is that it would be a significant and ongoing time investment. It may be easy to switch between them now, since the full feature set is still (barely) the most recently launched version. But going forward is an entirely different matter. With every update, both toolbars would likely have to be slightly tweaked to accommodate small changes as they roll out. This likely wouldn't be a profitable investment of their time.
I could understand their taking that position - if they hadn't already stated that non-subscribers will not get the Dynamic Toolbar. Unless that changes and it is introduced to the "free" engine as well - they will be maintaining it for that purpose alone.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
they will be maintaining it for that purpose alone.
But how much maintenance on the toolbar will be required when the only updates a user is receiving are bug fixes to already-owned and -integrated features along with OS compatibility tweaks? I do anticipate the new toolbar being rolled out to all users eventually, but for now I imagine they want it to be a (hopefully desirable) perk for the subscription.
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DMB said:
The planned (smiling) tab-colour customization choice on the new menu bar
tbh I love reading your comments. But I usually don't quite know what to think when I'm done reading (perhaps that's why I enjoy them). Tab-color customization? Where do you get this info? Are you even being serious or is it said (typed) with a subtle smirk? Yes, I know, you're smiling. But then again, you're always smiling... Oh, the challenges of online communication.
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Aaron Hamilton said:DMB said:
The planned (smiling) tab-colour customization choice on the new menu bar
Oh, the challenges of online communication.
Sorry! Just illustrating your point, if a highly desired feature were introduced to the new menu bar, the suggested option idea would be a waste. Although ... if Mark were serious about reducing the learning friction for newbies, coloured tabs would help (using the colour templates).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I Think I understand about the "colored tabs"... which sounds like a good idea to me... I would also like to have a more distinction on the bar between the partitions of the window. Sometimes it really is about the "little things" [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Thanks for this Mark,
Could you clarify because I'm feeling a little slow...
I currently have an old Logos Base Package.
I'm debating upgrading to the L10 FFS. If I do and I'll put it on a payment plan for 6 or so months, will I be required to subscribe immediately to pro on release as well on order to potentially benefit from the fall back license. Or can I hold off 6 months whilst paying for the FFS, then subscribe and begin the two year window then?
Thanks!
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Aaron Hamilton said:
I have one question, however. Are there plans to make the LFL a purchasable product in the future? I think there may be some new customers who would like to purchase it as a back up plan while they can afford the cost in preparation for a possible future when they may not be able to maintain the subscription. Dropping from the full feature set to the free version would be a massive change, especially after one has gathered many years of experience.
I would like to see an answer to this question.
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Kenny Larsen said:
I'm debating upgrading to the L10 FFS. If I do and I'll put it on a payment plan for 6 or so months, will I be required to subscribe immediately to pro on release as well on order to potentially benefit from the fall back license. Or can I hold off 6 months whilst paying for the FFS, then subscribe and begin the two year window then?
The Legacy Fallback perk might not be around forever, but I'm confident that you'll still be able to get on board in six months' time after your payment plan is paid off.
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Christopher Randall said:Aaron Hamilton said:
I have one question, however. Are there plans to make the LFL a purchasable product in the future? I think there may be some new customers who would like to purchase it as a back up plan while they can afford the cost in preparation for a possible future when they may not be able to maintain the subscription. Dropping from the full feature set to the free version would be a massive change, especially after one has gathered many years of experience.
I would like to see an answer to this question.
We do not have plans to make LFL a purchaseable product.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
We do not have plans to make LFL a purchaseable product
[:(] Just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that it be offered as a standalone product, but rather as a fallback plan only offered to subscribers. Regardless, I realize this isn't something you're currently discussing and that it also isn't a pressing matter. Thanks for all the clarity you've been providing recently.
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So it will purely be a subscription model only with no "ownership/perpetual license" for non-logos 10 owners who are not in the LFL track (speaking primarily for new customers, not those who have older versions)? And if it is something that will not be offered forever, does that mean if someone were to get out of a subscription for financial reasons and then come back they lose that, or does that mean there will be a time when LFL be gone completely in the future?
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Christopher Randall said:
So it will purely be a subscription model only with no "ownership/perpetual license" for non-logos 10 owners who are not in the LFL track? And if it is something that will not be offered forever, does that mean if someone were to get out of a subscription for financial reasons and then come back they lose that or does that mean there will be a time when LFL be gone completely in the future?
I admit, the answer is a bit disconcerting. My first thought was they would discontinue the LFL eventually, as it will become more and more obsolete as time goes on and the percentage of subscribers who are full feature owners decreases. If that's the case then it would appear that the LFL exists only to enable a smoother transition with the current client base and is not part of their long-term plan. I hope this isn't the case, and, frankly, I don't understand why they wouldn't sell it as an add-on to the subscription model. It would be a win-win, enabling them to cash in on an added product on top of the subscription while the user gains peace of mind and security for future uncertainties.
Also, isn't it just good practice to be able to offer a viable solution to the long-term user who is worried that after 10+ years of subscribing they will fall all the way back to square one with the free product? This seems like common sense to me. If the product is there, why not offer it? I really hope they give this topic serious consideration.
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I 100% agree. This will also lose the desire to "promote" the program to friends.
If Faithlife takes away LFL, that will hurt their business. I mean, paying money without any long-term return on investment is dumb. It is one thing to help the company; it is another thing to throw money away. For example, I don't use all of my "subscribed" features every day due to being busy. I'm not paying the "subscription" for access, I'm paying the "subscription" for an investment that I can use down the road even if some of those features can't stay. It is one thing to pay a subscription to access billions of songs or movies that will only be used temporarily (most movies are only watched once anyway), but for a program that is used weekly, if not daily...that is a different story.You might be right if they did both, it would be a win-win and a better business. It would help those who don't have money up-front, it would help those in tight-budget ministries, and it would help those who have money. I should also add that there are people on this forum who, like me, want my money spent on things that they can retain. They will say things like "buyer's remorse" without knowing what they are spending on, but the problem is that a subscription isn't buying, it's renting. If LFL goes away, then say goodbye to that group. AI can get a lot done these days for free. I can't imagine what it will be like in the future. I am sure this is on the table for discussion for many software companies.
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The Legacy Fallback License is as new to us as it is to you, so it's especially difficult for us to make predictions about the future. So take what I'm about to say as an indication of how we're currently thinking, not of 100% guarantees of exactly what will happen.
Christopher Randall said:So it will purely be a subscription model only with no "ownership/perpetual license" for non-logos 10 owners who are not in the LFL track (speaking primarily for new customers, not those who have older versions)?
Those are our current plans, yes. As you know, the vast majority of subscriptions do not offer any fallback. But we heard that was important to customers who had already bought into our perpetual model, and we wanted to recognize their loyalty and commitment over the years and help make the transition to subscription easier for them. So, we created this perk for them.
Christopher Randall said:And if it is something that will not be offered forever, does that mean if someone were to get out of a subscription for financial reasons and then come back they lose that, or does that mean there will be a time when LFL be gone completely in the future?
We have no plans to withdraw LFL, but we can't promise that we'll ALWAYS offer the LFL perk. Who knows what might change over time? Maybe we'll come up with something even better? So, in theory, someone who subscribes in X years' time (or re-subscribes) may no longer be offered LFL because it's been withdrawn. Or maybe LFL will still be around in a decade or two. I honestly couldn't predict which. But whatever might or might not happen in the future we would, of course, honor the promise made to people who are already building up qualification for LFL.
But if we were to withdraw it, I think we'd handle it similarly to this transition to subscription – plenty of communication and plenty of opportunity to get on board before the offer closes. That's what we've typically done over the years, and I have no reason to think it would be any different IF fallback changed in the future.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
if we were to withdraw it, I think we'd handle it similarly to this transition to subscription – plenty of communication and plenty of opportunity to get on board before the offer closes. That's what we've typically done over the years, and I have no reason to think it would be any different IF fallback changed in the future.
So in a future, let's say 10 years from now, where the decision is made to withdraw the LFL, how would one who does not own the full feature set go about getting on board before the offer closes? How would one get on board one year from now?
Edit:
I see you divided your answer into two parts and I've confused them. The part about getting on board, if I understand correctly, only applies to full feature set owners who may have unsubscribed or never subscribed long enough to earn the LFL.
Regardless, I hope you realize that a lot of problems were addressed with the LFL, and it would be a shame to not offer it to more users eventually in one form or another. I hope the team keeps this product in their toolbelt in the event that it becomes useful in the future, as I expect it might. You will want to continue to facilitate customer loyalty, an area which is known to be especially problematic for subscriptions. People subscribe for as long as they feel the benefit outweighs the cost, then cut the chord and move on. The LFL is great in that it incentivizes people to stay subscribed for two straight years, perhaps enough time for them to become familiar with the new features and discover the long-term benefits of remaining subscribed indefinitely.
What loyalty incentives do you plan to offer new customers paying full price who come on board? Loyalty discounts? What about offering the LFL to non-full feature set owners who have remained subscribed for 10+ years? You could even rename it from the Legacy Fallback License to the Loyalty Fallback License. My point is that somebody had a great idea with the LFL, and it would be an utter shame to only utilize it to help with transitioning the previous customer base to the new subscription model.
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Thank you Mark for the clarity.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
The Legacy Fallback License is as new to us as it is to you, so it's especially difficult for us to make predictions about the future. So take what I'm about to say as an indication of how we're currently thinking, not of 100% guarantees of exactly what will happen.
Christopher Randall said:So it will purely be a subscription model only with no "ownership/perpetual license" for non-logos 10 owners who are not in the LFL track (speaking primarily for new customers, not those who have older versions)?
Those are our current plans, yes. As you know, the vast majority of subscriptions do not offer any fallback. But we heard that was important to customers who had already bought into our perpetual model, and we wanted to recognize their loyalty and commitment over the years and help make the transition to subscription easier for them. So, we created this perk for them.
Mark, one thing that concerns me with the statement "Those are our current plans, yes. As you know, the vast majority of subscriptions do not offer any fallback.", is it seems to NOT acknowledge that the subscription part only applies to the features, not to the resources people purchase for their libraries--resources we have accepted as having higher prices due to all the tagging, etc., done by Faithlife, to make them more valuable than the same resources purchased elsewhere. Without the option for future feature subscribers to earn/purchase a fallback license, they will lose the value of the higher prices paid for their library resources. That would make it very difficult for me to recommend Logos to potential new subscribers who would have no LFL option, knowing they would be paying a premium for their library resources, only to lose the benefit of those higher resource prices if they are unable to maintain their features subscription, which is what really make their resources worthy of the higher pricing.
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Aaron Hamilton said:
Regardless, I hope you realize that a lot of problems were addressed with the LFL, and it would be a shame to not offer it to more users eventually in one form or another. I
It's an interesting consumer problem. I can only speak for myself, of course. But the way the puppy is growing up, in the last few months, I see 'not subscribing' as being 'done' with Logos-buying (mentally; still using the app). Sort of cuts the 'relationship' over the years. And maybe that's ok ... maybe the close buy-buy-buy that Logos was good at (5 figures and counting) was kind of unique. Now, it's mainly 2-figures monthly question .... keep subscribing?
Rick's point about 'recommending' above ... I'm not sure about that. It's easy enough to download the free engine (still). And easy enough to say, 'Gee, just sign up for the cheapo subscription for a month'. But customer retention, relative to 'buying' ... I think that'll be the primary question.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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DMB said:
But customer retention, relative to 'buying' ... I think that'll be the primary question.
I promised myself not to engage in these threads D but once again temptation wins the day[:O]
Customer retention, I think will not be accomplished at the extremes of the usage bell curve but in the middle.
Logos will accomplish this by concentrating on the things that all users want or need. Primary among these will be Reading Plans.
If a customer is using the app for reading they will be coming back to it day after day and will find the app useful. That customer will not, perhaps be spending much on resources but will want to keep a subscription going. The problem is that when one wants to read a 'book' rather than a Bible setting up a sensible reading plan can be very frustrating. So much so that I have not done it for some time. If reading was my primary focus I would have stopped the moment I tried to read one book of Tom Wright's four volume trilogy. Arbitrary reading endings would have had me dump my subscription.
In terms of customer retention the developers do need to focus on the things that bring most subscribers back to the program day after day.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:
[In terms of customer retention the developers do need to focus on the things that bring most subscribers back to the program day after day.
I believe the point that is missing to this is what about the retention of the long time customers that to be honest helped sustain the company for years with their purchases? Forget about them for the shiny new subscriber base? Leaving behind faithful customers is a risk for any company, possibly more for a company with a narrow customer base as it is....
Adding subscribers while allowing the traditional path would accomplish your point of Logos "concentrating on the things that all users want or need"
Telling long time users subscribe or no new features for you is a slap in the face IMHO...
As I have stated in other posts, I am truly trying to talk myself into subscribing for at least one two year cycle.... BUT - the continued concentration on the "new" or "non-power" user is holding me back.... (I have no desire for the new toolbar at this time, maybe that changes but at this time - I have to change my workflow for the "new" user (who may or may not become a faithful user) (Also never getting an answer as to why we cannot just pay for the 2 years for LFL qualified features only - thus retaining the customers who have no interest in the AI features or temporary books - the only response I've seen so far is that we would miss out on AI and the books.... And if the user does not want those things anyways? No answer - it should save Logos money with no cost of AI tokens)
Before someone chimes in with another misrepresentation, as has been done numerous times - I have given Logos credit for extending the Last Chance Sale and for the limited attempt to respond to customer backlash with the LFL - but there is a customer base that will not be retained due to that decision. Speaking for myself - while I am trying to find a reason to subscribe, I will not just for the sake of doing so. I am also the customer that, once you lose me - I'm done with you.... If my status as a long time customer wasn't valued at "x" time - don't come around asking me to come back if you change your system again.
Again, the thing that can get frustrating is not the change alone - but the comments that are made by Logos and some users who are all in on the subscription along the lines of "the best for all customers" - while in reality, there is a group of customers that is sitting back wondering where their spot in that "all" exists and seeing that it does not!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Rick Ausdahl said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
The Legacy Fallback License is as new to us as it is to you, so it's especially difficult for us to make predictions about the future. So take what I'm about to say as an indication of how we're currently thinking, not of 100% guarantees of exactly what will happen.
Christopher Randall said:So it will purely be a subscription model only with no "ownership/perpetual license" for non-logos 10 owners who are not in the LFL track (speaking primarily for new customers, not those who have older versions)?
Those are our current plans, yes. As you know, the vast majority of subscriptions do not offer any fallback. But we heard that was important to customers who had already bought into our perpetual model, and we wanted to recognize their loyalty and commitment over the years and help make the transition to subscription easier for them. So, we created this perk for them.
Mark, one thing that concerns me with the statement "Those are our current plans, yes. As you know, the vast majority of subscriptions do not offer any fallback.", is it seems to NOT acknowledge that the subscription part only applies to the features, not to the resources people purchase for their libraries--resources we have accepted as having higher prices due to all the tagging, etc., done by Faithlife, to make them more valuable than the same resources purchased elsewhere. Without the option for future feature subscribers to earn/purchase a fallback license, they will lose the value of the higher prices paid for their library resources. That would make it very difficult for me to recommend Logos to potential new subscribers who would have no LFL option, knowing they would be paying a premium for their library resources, only to lose the benefit of those higher resource prices if they are unable to maintain their features subscription, which is what really make their resources worthy of the higher pricing.
Well said - I have heard from the point of view that the other ebook sellers never charge me for their readers, even when new features are added to the application.... One specifically mentioned the outrage of having to pay for light/dark mode improvements that most apps have for free... (I don't need it, so it doesn't affect me - but point taken).
Even with the point made that the feature content created in Logos being more "in depth" - the general satisfaction is not there for many...
For the sake of those that have made the investments we have, I hope that this decision does not backfire for Logos.... Subscriptions are easy to drop - purchases are not...
Risking the alienation of long time customers for the possibility that new users will balance out is a risk that the new Logos seems willing to take - but with that decision - the customers who feel left out... Well it should be understood
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Mike Binks said:
I promised myself not to engage in these threads D but once again temptation wins the day
Customer retention, I think will not be accomplished at the extremes of the usage bell curve but in the middle.
Logos will accomplish this by concentrating on the things that all users want or need. Primary among these will be Reading Plans.
Promises, promises. But your comments always have an interesting edge to them!
I had not considered reading plans. I've never used them personally. I typically am reading 3 books at a time, depending on the excitement! Yesterday was Ashurbanipal's Assyrian treaty threats! An ancient bowed leader: 'Using MY diety for HIS benefit! MY diety picked ME. And blew it! Just not fair.!" Anyway, back to reality.
But I do spend quite of bit of time in the 'readers' world on the big-A. It combines 'well, that was good .... same author?' to 'well, that was good ... same subject?' to 'Goodness, why'd I buy THAT??'. It seems (guessing) to me the software is a convenience ... major UI changes unwanted, and 'features' unneeded. And unfortunately, 'mucho book purchasing' also unneeded.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Frank Sauer said:
Adding subscribers while allowing the traditional path would accomplish your point of Logos "concentrating on the things that all users want or need"
Telling long time users subscribe or no new features for you is a slap in the face IMHO...
My thoughts exactly.
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Rick Ausdahl said:
Mark, one thing that concerns me with the statement "Those are our current plans, yes. As you know, the vast majority of subscriptions do not offer any fallback.", is it seems to NOT acknowledge that the subscription part only applies to the features, not to the resources people purchase for their libraries--resources we have accepted as having higher prices due to all the tagging, etc., done by Faithlife, to make them more valuable than the same resources purchased elsewhere.
FL have stated that resource purchases will continue as is for subscribers and non-subscribers (incl. those who go off subscription), and non-subscribers will continue to receive app updates to ensure compatibility with new OS, and updates/fixes associated with resources.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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When it says early features and old feature
Dose it mean
After to years U get to keep the early access features after 2 years or only old features after 2 years
Also
Is read aloud included?
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Berechiah said:
When it says early features and old feature
Dose it mean
After to years U get to keep the early access features after 2 years or only old features after 2 years
Also
Is read aloud included?
If it is not included on the list of excluded features, then it will be included in the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). Thus, yes, read aloud will be included. Old features refers to Logos 10 full feature set, early access is the current version of the subscription from when it started in March or so until when the official subscription launches on or before November 1st.
The LFL is a unique package of features. It will not include all features from the subscription nor from the full feature set. But it will include features that don't exist yet, being as it will be released about two years from now.
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I am getting more and more disappointed, to be honest.
We were told there would be a legacy fallback license for all customers! And that it was going to include all non-ai or cloud features!
This is no longer the case.
Why?
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Pedro Pozo said:
We were told there would be a legacy fallback license for all customers!
I do not believe this is the case. Can you provide a reference for this statement?
Pedro Pozo said:And that it was going to include all non-ai or cloud features!
What excluded feature do you believe does not make use of AI or the cloud?
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Pedro Pozo said:
I am getting more and more disappointed, to be honest.
We were told there would be a legacy fallback license for all customers! And that it was going to include all non-ai or cloud features!
This is no longer the case.
Why?
I don't remember hearing/reading this anywhere, though I could have missed it (I didn't read all 1400+ posts on this mega thread https://community.logos.com/forums/t/221543.aspx). Can you link to where you got this from?
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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In the first post on this thread Mark Barnes says:
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:After many, many, requests, I'm finally able to give more details on what is likely to be included and excluded from the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). I'm sorry it's taken so long.
As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.
The LFL perk will only be given to people who already own a Logos base package or feature set or otherwise qualify for one of the discounted subscription tracks. It won't be offered to new customers..
👁️ 👁️
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Thanks I appreciate the response
So with pro
Just to confirm
I can have read aloud after 2 years to keep an be mine
Will bible browser be available too?
And if so will all the tags used be there?
Apart from the keep features
Is print library in logos pro subscription? Not to keep but Is it accessible?
Thanks again
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Thanks I appreciate the response
So with pro
Just to confirm
I can have read aloud after 2 years to keep an be mine
Will bible browser be available too?
And if so will all the tags used be there?
Apart from the keep features
Is print library in logos pro subscription? Not to keep but Is it accessible?
Thanks again
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Thanks I appreciate the response
So with pro
Just to confirm
I can have read aloud after 2 years to keep an be mine
Will bible browser be available too?
And if so will all the tags used be there?
Apart from the keep features
Is print library in logos pro subscription? Not to keep but Is it accessible?
Thanks again
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Please forgive me for being a little slow to understand
Dose that mean there apart from them 4 things
Mentioned in logos max that is excluded every thing else from logos 10 full features set is included?
Like
Preach modes
Read aloud
Bible browser
All the tags that come in logos 10 FFS only those 4 things are not included is that right
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Print library is not listed in logos max section
.... Dose that mean it is included in the fallback ? I know people said it's not but .... Are people sure?
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Berechiah said:
Dose that mean there apart from them 4 things
Mentioned in logos max that is excluded every thing else from logos 10 full features set is included?
No. For features excluded, you need to start with "From Logos Premium and up." Everything that is excluded from Logos Premium will also be excluded from Logos Pro and Logos Max (because both of these levels are "up" from the Logos Premium level).
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Berechiah said:
Print library is not listed in logos max section
.... Dose that mean it is included in the fallback ? I know people said it's not but .... Are people sure?
The Print Library is excluded from the fallback license. In the first post, it is specifically excluded from Logos Pro and up ("up" would be Max), and the level of features that are eligible for Premium does not include the Print Library feature. The Print Library is a cloud feature; cloud features are excluded from the fallback license. This restriction applies to all levels: Premium, Pro, and Max.
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Reposting from first page so more people can see. This is also why there is still value inning the Logos 10 Full Feature Set.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:After many, many, requests, I'm finally able to give more details on what is likely to be included and excluded from the Legacy Fallback License (LFL). I'm sorry it's taken so long.
As a reminder, the LFL will be granted to subscribers after two years of continual subscription as a kind of "safety net" if you find you're no longer able to subscribe. That means you can be confident that you'll be able to use many Logos features long into the future. Perks and most books are not included in the LFL.
The LFL perk will only be given to people who already own a Logos base package or feature set or otherwise qualify for one of the discounted subscription tracks. It won't be offered to new customers.
Some features will be excluded from that license, primarily those that are cloud or AI-based, as they have high ongoing costs that are covered by the subscription payments. Many of you have asked for a list of those exclusions.
The first LFL will not be issued until October 2026, and many more features will be added between now and then. This list only deals with current features (including early access features). If possible, we'll try to identify whether future features will likely be eligible for the LFL when they are released.
So, likely exclusions of current and early access features from the Legacy Fallback License are:
From Logos Premium and up:
- Early access features:
- Smart Search
- Smart Synopsis
- Help Center
- Summarization (including in search results)
- Bible Study Builder AI Questions
- Older features:
- Factbook Tags (apart from most tags in Bibles)
- Community Tags
- Fuzzy Bible Search
- Insert Media in Notes
- Bible Browser
- Atlas Tool
- Media Tool
- Assorted Media
From Logos Pro and up:
- Early access features:
- Sermon Assistant
- Older features:
- Print Library Catalog
- Sermon Manager Import
- Sermon Builder Popular Quotations Sidebar
- Text Comparison Interlinears
From Logos Max:
- Older features:
- Auto-Translation
- Lemma in Passage
- Morph Query Engine (this is different from Morph Search)
- Online Manuscript Dataset
If you already own any of these features, their presence on this list does NOT mean they will be taken away from you. It just means that people without these features will likely not have them granted to them via LFL.
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