ATTN: Mark re:sermon assistant tools OR tell me why the Sermon Builder doesn't meet your needs
My concern is that there has been no broadening of the type of sermon/homily supported since the ineffective complaints to the sermon workflows in L7 (Frs. Damian and Devin were involved). I was reminded of that fact by a Lutheran's support for moving the sermon assistant outside the sermon builder. The primary failures of both the sermon builder and the sermon workflow include:
- the assumption of a single passage rather than multiple passages (think lectionary) as a text
- the assumption that the passage is Biblical: progressives have lectionaries that include New Testament apocrypha; Catholic allow sermons on the prayers of the Mass; . . .
- the assumption of a single lectionary - several mainline Protestants use the RCL and the Season of Creation
- the emphasis on the application as the primary sense of scripture ... without a nuanced understanding of application.
- utilizing the tool as a lesson maker is severely limited because of the lack of footnotes and tables.
If even some of these were covered we might see people not currently using Sermon Builder moving towards using it as a keystone of their Logos use. My personal suggestions - I'd love to see pastors speak up as to why they don't find the Sermon Builder useful.
- Quotations should fall within the Sermon assistant. It should have two modes: (1) the current one but possibly enhanced by AI selection of quotes and (2) curated quotes as in Quotation series for Catholics | Logos
- Illustrations should have a second mode drawing on traditional illustrations and teaching tales.
- Applications need a different adult audience break down running from contemplative, social justice activist, prayer-oriented for elderly & homebound, to faith formation (general Christian growth).
- Questions need an option to support both content or discussion questions. The questions dataset need to be expanded to include questions without printed answers to expand the Sermon Builder into a usable Lesson builder. Access to this dataset could be AI enhanced and through the sermon builder.
- A link between the creeds, statements of faith, etc. to the sermon content needs to be built. For many church goers, the sermon is the primary vehicle supporting an understanding of theology.
- Sermons may be for daily services and for Morning/Evening prayer which have somewhat smaller requirements are they are usual less formal and shorter
- Sermons may be based loosely on a weeks worth of readings - Thursday-Wednesday for those using the RCL daily lectionary along with the RCL
Please actively seek the input of those whose sermons don't fit into the Logos model (and may not fit into mine). Don't make cool, glitzy AI features make the Sermon Builder even more narrowly focused on a single style of preaching (and indirectly, of worship).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
the assumption that the passage is Biblical: progressives have lectionaries that include New Testament apocrypha; Catholic allow sermons on the prayers of the Mass; . . .
And lives of the Saints. I've also seen a Catholic priest preach a homily based on the Catechism.
MJ. Smith said:Quotations should fall within the Sermon assistant. It should have two modes: (1) the current one but possibly enhanced by AI selection of quotes and (2) curated quotes as in Quotation series for Catholics | Logos
Agreed. And what about utilizing AI to find and include relevant hymn lyrics in your sermon and other content. This is why the Assistant needs to be freed from the Sermon Builder so that it can be a more holistic tool.
MJ. Smith said:Applications need a different adult audience break down running from contemplative, social justice activist, prayer-oriented for elderly & homebound, to faith formation (general Christian growth).
Great idea!
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Great post by MJ! I am a Deacon and I don't use the Sermon tools at all because they just aren't helpful in developing homilies. I especially agree with MJ's points, being Catholic:
- the assumption of a single passage rather than multiple passages (think lectionary) as a text
- Catholics allow HOMILIES on the prayers of the Mass; . . .
- the emphasis on the application as the primary sense of scripture ... without a nuanced understanding of application.
Also if not covered:
- homilies on the reading including the Psalm;
- I would elaborate on MJ's thought, a homily for school kids vs. young adults vs. geriatrics vs. funerals vs. weddings vs. baptisms vs. a senior living facility (I have done all of them) are dramatically different;
- bulding on Kiyah's comment on Lives of the Saints, (a good one), the feast day/liturgical calendar is extraordinarily important - is it a saint? Feast of our lady - Our lady of Guadeloupe, the Visitation, Our Lady of Sorrows; Christ-centered feasts like Corpus Christi, Exaltation of the Holy Cross; A feast like Day of Prayer for the Legal Protection of Unborn Children, events like Assumption, Ascension....anything on the liturgical calendar! It needs some flexibility too - keep in mind there are universal feast days and local ones to a region only.
Also - illustrations need some flexibility. Some like a funny story - some that might be relevant to a sad local or nation tragedy - some might be specific to the audience (child story vs. geriatric story are dramatically different.) - some that crystallize the topic - check out some of the books on illustrations, they have stories based on topic - if your homily is on "temptation" they have stories related to temptation.
It's a hard project to tackle - it needs a lot of work. But it could be immensely useful if improved!
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You made me think of AI generating potential petitions for the Prayers of the Faithful from the sermon (and related texts).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks for starting this thread. I'm already in touch with a few Catholic priests and deacons about how Logos can provide better support for Catholic homilies. This thread will help further, and I'd welcome further comments.
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Be sure to include some mainline/progressive Protestant preachers - they extend the Catholic use through using multiple lectionaries (think RCL+Season of Creation) and a daily lectionary in support of the Sunday reading (RCL+RCL daily). They also have great visual representations think Treasures Old and New: Images in the Lectionary: Ramshaw, Gail: 9780800631895: Amazon.com: Books
They also have a tradition of prayer creation/selection based on the sermon content - think Pray, Praise, and Give Thanks: Litanies, Laments, and Thanksgivings at Font and Table: Ramshaw, Gail: 9781506418254: Amazon.com: Books This particular concern is less a concern among Catholics who at most have a choice of prayers.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I preach several times a week. I have not found sermon builder helpful. I do not use it. I wish I could.
I put my study notes in a formatted word documents. I might have a study on the Holy Spirit which could be several sermons in one document. I like having all my study notes on a particular topic all in one document. I might have a study on the book of Ezekiel. The Word file might be 80 pages long covering all the chapters of the book. That may take 20 sermons. But I have all my material in one document. I might be doing a Bible study and clearly would want all my material in one document. So I create a personal book and it works very well. I like how I can hover over verses and quickly can read the passage. I like how I can create a link to a resource in Logos as well.
I have tried to import one of my files into Sermon builder and did not like the way my formatting was changed. If I was able to keep my formatting, I would then welcome using some of the sermon buider tools to better my document or create a powerpoint or questions.
I don't think sermon builder was meant for people like me.
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Mark said:
I preach several times a week. I have not found sermon builder helpful. I do not use it. I wish I could.
I put my study notes in a formatted word documents. I might have a study on the Holy Spirit which could be several sermons in one document. I like having all my study notes on a particular topic all in one document. I might have a study on the book of Ezekiel. The Word file might be 80 pages long covering all the chapters of the book. That may take 20 sermons. But I have all my material in one document. I might be doing a Bible study and clearly would want all my material in one document. So I create a personal book and it works very well. I like how I can hover over verses and quickly can read the passage. I like how I can create a link to a resource in Logos as well.
I have tried to import one of my files into Sermon builder and did not like the way my formatting was changed. If I was able to keep my formatting, I would then welcome using some of the sermon buider tools to better my document or create a powerpoint or questions.
I don't think sermon builder was meant for people like me.
"I don't think sermon builder was meant for people like me" captures my own experience. I've been giving it a try again, in conjunction with my testing of Logos Pro. My preaching is lectionary based, and I do not think at all in terms of "illustrations." I switched to Logos from Accordance because of the broader number of resources, especially from the Lutheran tradition (although my library has quite a few Eastern Orthodox and Latin resources, and I like to think of myself as belonging to the pre-1054 tradition, however pollyannic that might sound).
The sense that "sermon builder isn't meant for people like me" gives the larger impression that Logos itself isn't meant for people like me. The thing is, I really want it to be! There's room for all of us. But it seems that the assumption is everyone preaches (or should preach) like American Evangelicals.
Like some of the posters above, sermons in my tradition take into account the larger context of the year; sermons are not part of a "series" but of a season, and the changes in the liturgy from season to season are a broader part of that ongoing conversation. I was excited when I saw a place to enter the Lectionary Day in sermon builder, and then very, very surprised that it didn't recognize my default lectionary, or seem to have any option for using a specific lectionary at all. This could be an amazing tool by enabling the preacher to have quick access to these texts, as well as quickly draw upon, e.g., patristic comments or confessional/dogmatic applications from our libraries. I know that these things are somewhat present in the Guide features, but integrating that into sermon builder would be a game changer.
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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Christopher Esget said:
"I don't think sermon builder was meant for people like me" captures my own experience.
In a post above Mark indicated he is working with some lectionary/liturgical date based priest/pastors/deacons to strengthen this area.
Is it your highest priority lectionary? IIRC that is the key. Unfortunately, it does not recognize that some churches use multiple lectionaries.Christopher Esget said:it didn't recognize my default lectionary
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Christopher Esget said:
"I don't think sermon builder was meant for people like me" captures my own experience.
In a post above Mark indicated he is working with some lectionary/liturgical date based priest/pastors/deacons to strengthen this area.
Is it your highest priority lectionary? IIRC that is the key. Unfortunately, it does not recognize that some churches use multiple lectionaries.Christopher Esget said:it didn't recognize my default lectionary
That's great re. working with some liturgically minded preachers. As far as the lectionary question - do you mean is the lectionary the highest in my prioritized resources in the library? (I'm not sure it's there at all. Maybe that changes things.) I primarily use one lectionary, but I will draw upon others, especially for non-Sunday services or when I'm preaching at other churches. (My church body has a one-year and a three-year lectionary, the three-year being a modified form of the RCL. Most of our parishes use the three-year, but mine is on the one-year.)
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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Christopher Esget said:
As far as the lectionary question - do you mean is the lectionary the highest in my prioritized resources in the library?
Yes, that's what I mean, In the Sermon manager under add sermons (upper right) there is an option to chose lectionaries at the very bottom of the popup.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
In the Sermon manager under add sermons (upper right) there is an option to chose lectionaries at the very bottom of the popup.
Okay, that's really cool. Now, if that functionality were enhanced, we'd really be cooking with gas.
Thank you for helping me!
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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I generally agree with MJ’s major premise: that the Sermon Builder/Manager is just not a serious tool. It is too quirky to become my standard tool for writing sermons (I’m a 3-year lectionary Lutheran) and too limited to be of use for building lessons (PPT is king). It occupies this weird middle space that nobody actually wants to work in. FWIW, I’ve actually begun using Notes more and more in Logos because they are good at what they’re good at: organizing, tagging, archiving, quick retrieval (integrated with resources). IMO, Sermon Builder and Sermon Manager need to be deconstructed and rebuilt from the ground up.
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Matt Doebler said:
IMO, Sermon Builder and Sermon Manager need to be deconstructed and rebuilt from the ground up.
Please, No! I use the Sermon Builder in particular on an almost daily basis, and have found it a really useful tool. I use it both for preaching in churches and preparing lessons for a theological college where I teach. There are bits of it I don't use:
- Illustrations - It never gives me useful illustrations, and I stopped even trying some time ago. Likewise, the illustration resources have never seemed particularly helpful to me, as they have an emphasis on American culture that really doesn't translate well in my context.
- Topics - I preach expositorily, and not topically, so don't have any use for that.
- Slides - I see little homiletic or pedagogical value in reproducing what I am saying on slides, so my slides are produced in Powerpoint to illustrate points visually (apart from reproducing the scripture text).
But these are probably very useful to some people.
My plea here is, please don't completely redesign a tool that is a core part of the workflow of a large number of us, for whom it would be immensely disruptive if the whole thing got redesigned.
I actually find Sermon Builder a fantastic tool, and have been using it ever since it was first introduced. I slightly resent an earlier comment that it's great for the way American Evangelicals preach. It might be, but I'm not American, and I don't preach topical series either. I also don't (and probably never will) use the Lectionary regularly for preaching, and when I do preach in an Anglican or Methodist church that uses the Lectionary, I still use Sermon Builder without difficulty. I can understand that Sermon Manager might be improved by incorporating more lectionary features for those who need them, but I only use Sermon Manager now for planning my own preaching schedule in a number of different churches, of three or four different denominations.
So my message is, please don't go radically redesigning it and thereby disrupting the workflow of those of us who already use it and enjoy using it. By all means add in extra features for those who are tied to lectionaries and liturgy, but don't mess it up for those of us who really value this feature as it is. My only request is for the facility to add endnote citations, so that I can see the source of an idea or quote when revisiting a sermon some time later.
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GregW said:Matt Doebler said:
IMO, Sermon Builder and Sermon Manager need to be deconstructed and rebuilt from the ground up.
Please, No! I use the Sermon Builder in particular on an almost daily basis, and have found it a really useful tool. I use it both for preaching in churches and preparing lessons for a theological college where I teach.
While I agree with Matt Doeber, I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone's workflow drastically disrupted. I tried to use Sermon Builder for preparing sermons this week and found it more frustrating than anything. But I do like a couple of the possibilities, so I hope this feature can be developed into something that has broader usage.
Brother Greg, I didn't mean to be disrespectful. I apologize for causing you offense.
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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Christopher Esget said:
Brother Greg, I didn't mean to be disrespectful. I apologize for causing you offense.
I'm not offended at all and don't worry about it. I just wanted to record that some of us do really appreciate this tool, and to put down a marker that trashing it and starting over would not be a good outcome for us!
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Matt Doebler said:
WIW, I’ve actually begun using Notes more and more in Logos because they are good at what they’re good at: organizing, tagging, archiving, quick retrieval (integrated with resources). IMO, Sermon Builder and Sermon Manager need to be deconstructed and rebuilt from the ground up.
A couple of points of clarification/elaboration:
- It seems to me that Sermon Manager/Builder (SMB) was intended to be the sermon/lesson equivalent of a Swiss Army Knife, i.e., the SMB was intended to possess a wide variety of functionality that maximized its helpfulness to the entire sermon/lesson workflow. The problem I am pointing out is that I don't particularly want to use a multi-tool for writing, designing, and publishing my sermons/lessons. Rather, I would like to use a variety of specialty tools that perform one or two functions within the sermon/lesson workflow exceptionally well.
- For example, when writing my sermon, I would like to have a dedicated sermon composition tool that integrated things like lectionary readings, Notes, the new AI features, scripture search (for quick reference/keyword lookup), etc. In other words, a simple writing tool that allowed me quick access other "stuff" within logos. Another idea would be to build sermon outline templates into this tool, e.g., prompts that would guide a writer through a variety of sermon structures. My overall point is: make this tool all about maximizing the writing process itself.
- Then do the same with the other tools/functions. For example, it would be great to have an AI tool that analyzed a sermon manuscript and created an editable small group discussion guide. Or, it would be awesome to have a dedicated lesson tool that incorporated pedagogical-specific features and integrated better with some of the other Logos tools that we are most likely to use for an interactive lesson (rather than a sermon), e.g., visual media, atlas content, Factbook stuff, etc.
- The point in all this is to suggest that Logos consider a different vision for the SMB--one that doesn't pursue the "multi-tool" model and instead focuses on creating a suite of tools that are each sharply honed for the various tasks that preachers and teachers engage in during the sermon/lesson creation process.
- I also think that this approach would coincide better with Logos' plans to move to subscriptions. Differentiate the tools amongst the subscription tiers. I might want to pay more for a really great sermon writing tool, but I might not care as much about slide creator or the Sermon Rehearsal/Memorization Tool (I just made that up, but it's a cool idea). Or I might want all the tools. The point is that, presently, I don't want to use the SMB at all because it's, frankly, average at doing lots of stuff. What I value are excellent tools that are good at 1-2 things and that I reach for every time. That's why I think Logos should consider deconstructing and reimagining its current direction with the SMB.
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GregW said:
I also don't (and probably never will) use the Lectionary regularly for preaching, and when I do preach in an Anglican or Methodist church that uses the Lectionary, I still use Sermon Builder without difficulty.
I'm not sure from this statement that you understand how a lectionary is used. It is not simply a list of readings/potential preaching text for a particular date, it is a context in which those readings are read which include the previous Sunday's readings (in some Seasons as far back as the start of the season) and setting the context for the following Sunday's readings. It is the seasonal context of those readings and the interplay of the readings to the prayers of the day.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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GregW said:
Slides - I see little homiletic or pedagogical value in reproducing what I am saying on slides, so my slides are produced in Powerpoint to illustrate points visually (apart from reproducing the scripture text).
Hi Greg – I would love to better understand the kinds of slides you are creating in Powerpoint for preaching or lessons at the college. Maybe you could share an example or two?
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Thanks for the feedback, Matt! This is super helpful.
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Christopher Esget said:
While I agree with Matt Doeber, I certainly wouldn't want to see anyone's workflow drastically disrupted. I tried to use Sermon Builder for preparing sermons this week and found it more frustrating than anything. But I do like a couple of the possibilities, so I hope this feature can be developed into something that has broader usage.
FWIW, I tried Sermon Builder again last week, and had a much better experience. I really appreciate being able to insert the content of notes so easily into the body of the sermon. The ease of inserting Scriptural text is also terrific. It's too soon to tell, but this may become my primary method of sermon creation.
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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I know that this is slightly off-topic, but I am very new to using Logos, having recently migrated from paper. Mostly, I have been using it just to speed up access to commentaries, lexicons, and other references. I would like to find a good system for using Notes. If I had a system for using Notes, I would be much more likely to find usefulness in sermon builder. Do you know of any useful guides, Christopher?
Juan
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I know that this is slightly off-topic, but I am very new to using Logos, having recently migrated from paper. Mostly, I have been using it just to speed up access to commentaries, lexicons, and other references. I would like to find a good system for using Notes. If I had a system for using Notes, I would be much more likely to find usefulness in sermon builder. Do you know of any useful guides, Christopher?
Juan
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Hi Juan, and welcome to Logos. I don't know of any particular guides, although I'm sure there are some if you search the forum. When you start a new sermon in sermon manager, it should automatically create a notebook for you for that particular sermon. However, what I have been doing is creating notebooks for Sundays/Liturgical days, not just an individual sermon. I'm on the One-Year series, so for this coming Sunday, I have a Trinity 17 notebook. In future years you can come back to the same notebook and pick up perhaps some loose threads from the previous year(s). I like to leave a note to myself on what I was thinking about after I wrote the sermon, with ideas to explore next time around.
I also have notebooks for particular books of the Bible, that I label according to their canonical order, for example:
OT 01 - Genesis
OT 02 - Exodus
etc.
NT 01 - Matthew
etc.
The above system I picked up from someone on these forums, but I cannot recall who deserves credit.
Finally, I have notebooks for particular classes I teach, such as a notebook for a class in our parochial school, or a Sunday morning Bible class.
I'm sure others are better organized than this, but this is a system that works for me.
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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Hi Juan,
I tried to reply before, but it said my response was flagged for moderation, and I don't quite know why!
Here's what I do: I have notebooks for the Sundays/Festivals of the church year. This allows me to come back and pick up on any threads I didn't use in previous years, and also leave notes for myself for future years about sermon ideas or exegetical avenues that could be used.
I also have notebooks for particular classes I teach, and notebooks for each book of the Bible.
I'm sure others are more organized than I am, but this system works for me well enough. I hope this helps.
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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Christopher Esget said:
Here's what I do: I have notebooks for the Sundays/Festivals of the church year. This allows me to come back and pick up on any threads I didn't use in previous years, and also leave notes for myself for future years about sermon ideas or exegetical avenues that could be used.
Same. I do all my sermon prep in an anchored note (organized under a Sermon notebook). I write the sermon text in a Word doc. After I preach it, the first thing I do on Monday is paste the sermon text at the bottom of the sermon prep note (headed with the title, liturgical date, and congregation where I preached it).
I agree that this system should work well for me in the long run by preserving my exegetical work side-by-side with my sermon manuscript so I can preach again from the same text without repeating my previous theme.
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Matt Doebler said:
Same. I do all my sermon prep in an anchored note (organized under a Sermon notebook). I write the sermon text in a Word doc. After I preach it, the first thing I do on Monday is paste the sermon text at the bottom of the sermon prep note (headed with the title, liturgical date, and congregation where I preached it).
I agree that this system should work well for me in the long run by preserving my exegetical work side-by-side with my sermon manuscript so I can preach again from the same text without repeating my previous theme.
I am mostly writing my sermons also in a word processing app. But that is a great idea to paste the text into a Logos note. I'm going to start doing that.
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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Matt Doebler said:
Same. I do all my sermon prep in an anchored note (organized under a Sermon notebook).
Do you anchor it to the Biblical text? I've been anchoring it in the Lutheran Service Book lectionary, just curious what you're doing.
Pastor, Immanuel Evangelical-Lutheran Church (LCMS), Alexandria, VA
Vice President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod (East-Southeast Region)
Author of (Dis)ordered: Lies about Human Nature and the Truth That Sets Us Free
Personal website: Esgetology
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I anchor each note to the key text the sermon is based upon and I assign a special note icon for all my sermon notes (I also do this for devotionals that I write--using a distinct notebook and note icon). I find this helpful because when I go to a text in my bible in Logos, I am visually reminded any time that I am on a text I've either written a devotional or sermon on. And clicking on the note icon takes me right to the note.
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