Significant design flaw in Dashboard ...

This has gone beyond "shall I laugh or cry?" What major, fundamental element of Christian life that is very Bible intensive is missing from the 4 options?

Hint: does worship fit into your vocabulary? Is there a reason why the weekday readings for the Revised Common Lectionary spend 3 days looking back to the Sunday readings and 3 days looking forward to the next Sunday readings? Is there a reason why the Jewish tradition on some weekdays repeat portions of the Sabbath readings? Is there a reason why many of the magazines and books for in home bible study are built around preparation for WORSHIP?

Sorry for the sarcasm, but this comes across as so thoroughly evangelical in perspective in what should be a thoroughly ecumenical context ...it tears Bible study out of its context of prayer and worship. I might even says it reeks of bibliolatry. End of my rant for the day.

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Justin Gatlin

I would argue that adding a "worship" button would inappropriately imply that the others are not acts of worship. Maybe "today's reading" with a picture of a calendar that opens a layout for the top ranked dated resource, either a devotional or a lectionary.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1314897#Comment_1314897

I would argue that adding a "worship" button would inappropriately imply that the others are not acts of worship.

You are using "worship" in a different sense than I am. The word has multiple meanings (is polysemic): attitude of reverence vs. a religious (corporate) act. I would not presume the use of a lectionary although that would often be true. Sorry I was not clearer. To me, the idea of preparation implied the second sense was meant - another case whether differences in experience come back to bite me.

Aaron Hamilton

What major, fundamental element of Christian life that is very Bible intensive is missing from the 4 options?

This card seems to have the target audiences of the three tiers and three (non-standard) base packages specifically in view: group Bible study for group leaders, write a sermon for pastors, and original language for academics. Presumably, everyone would engage in personal study.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1314916#Comment_1314916

This card seems to have the target audiences of the three tiers and three (non-standard) base packages specifically in view: group Bible study for group leaders, write a sermon for pastors, and original language for academics.

I agree completely. And in my experience, preparation for corporate worship is a fundamental prerequisite for the first (all) tier. While it is obviously a simplification as only models can simply, I find the distinction between doxological models and attractional models of church useful. My complaint is what I see as a marketing issue re: some of the doxological model churches. I asked Perplexity to list Christian denominations that illustrate each of these models.

[quote]Denominations that tend to lean towards the Doxological Model:

Eastern Orthodox Churches
Roman Catholic Church
Anglican/Episcopal Churches
Lutheran Churches
Presbyterian Churches
Reformed Churches

These denominations often emphasize:

Structured liturgies
Traditional hymns and worship music
Focus on sacraments
Emphasis on corporate worship as primarily for believers

Denominations that tend to lean towards the Attractional Model:

Many Evangelical churches
Non-denominational churches
Some Baptist churches
Pentecostal/Charismatic churches
Seeker-sensitive churches (not a denomination, but a movement)

These churches often emphasize:

Contemporary worship music
Less formal services
Topical preaching
Focus on making services appealing to non-believers

Obviously, this is a very broad-brush perspective, but I stand by my observation that the latter is favored over the former to the detriment of a broad appeal product.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1314922#Comment_1314922

Obviously, this is a very broad-brush perspective, but I stand by my observation that the latter is favored over the former to the detriment of a broad appeal product.

Absolutely. While I understand their choice of categories in that they seem to align with the overall marketing strategy, more could be done to cater towards non-evangelical audiences.

I am personally curious what else other than lectionary readings you would hope to find in the "worship" category, were that to be implemented.

I think the word "worship" means too many different things to different people in a setting like this, which may cause confusion, which, of course, is exactly what they're trying to avoid with a lot of the changes that are being made.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1314927#Comment_1314927

I am personally curious what else other than lectionary readings you would hope to find in the "worship" category, were that to be implemented.

I was thinking of churches that often substitute prayer services (morning/evening) for eucharistic services or use only Liturgy of the Hours for weekdays, those who release readings quarterly or annually but without the cyclic nature of lectionaries, or the small denominations that have their own idiosyncratic lectionaries (I have a service book from one such Methodist group in Texas). I've run into some unusual cases where it is topics rather than readings that are pre-assigned. I can even think of an example where the ISSL lessons would serve as a template. If I wanted to push it outside the actual target marketing, I would think of the Lessons of Christian Scientists.

Aaron Hamilton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1314930#Comment_1314930

I was thinking of churches that often substitute prayer services (morning/evening) for eucharistic services, those who release readings quarterly or annually but without the cyclic nature of lectionaries, or the small denominations that have their own idiosyncratic lectionaries (I have a service book from one such Methodist group in Texas). I've run into some unusual cases where it is topics rather than readings that are pre-assigned. I can even think of an example where the ISSL lessons would serve as a template.

That sounds really interesting. I bet a separate tool could be built around the concept of worship as you have laid it out here that would appeal to the much-neglected non-evangelical audiences.

Dave Hooton

this comes across as so thoroughly evangelical in perspective in what should be a thoroughly ecumenical context ...it tears Bible study out of its context of prayer and worship. I might even says it reeks of bibliolatry. End of my rant for the day.

Your objection lacks a proposal as to how a liturgical prayer/worship.perspective could be implemented, bearing in mind the different perspective of evangelicals.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1314934#Comment_1314934

Your objection lacks a proposal as to how a liturgical prayer/worship.perspective could be implemented,

I know that they have been discussing similar concerns with a user group and I know there is a large part of the market that I cannot adequately represent. If they need help selecting among the appropriate implementations, I'll be glad to give my input.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1314939#Comment_1314939

Your objection lacks a proposal as to how a liturgical prayer/worship.perspective could be implemented,

I know that they have been discussing similar concerns with a user group and I know there is a large part of the market that I cannot adequately represent. If they need help selecting among the appropriate implementations, I'll be glad to give my input.

My question was "how" rather than "what", but on reflection I don't care about additional options.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1316460#Comment_1316460

I completely agree with MJ - I love our friends at Logos and what they have created. Yet as we approach Logos 11, I see that we are going to continue to live with this deep design blind spot.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1316480#Comment_1316480

Yet as we approach Logos 11, I see that we are going to continue to live with this deep design blind spot.

As further evidenced by the Bible Lesson Builder continuing the long tradition of studying only a single passage rather than multiple passages playing off each other.

Justin Gatlin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1316483#Comment_1316483

Yet as we approach Logos 11, I see that we are going to continue to live with this deep design blind spot.

As further evidenced by the Bible Lesson Builder continuing the long tradition of studying only a single passage rather than multiple passages playing off each other.

In the Bible study builder, you can enter a new passage and still work on the same document. So while it will only look up references to one at a time, it can be employed to study multiple passages (and I have). I don't really see a better way to do it, since I wouldn't want to find only questions that are tagged with n specific passages. If there are questions about multiple passages, I want it to come up if I search for any of them.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1316483#Comment_1316483

As further evidenced by the Bible Lesson Builder continuing the long tradition of studying only a single passage rather than multiple passages playing off each other.

Yep. Growing up, sermons were a fast moving series of verse puzzle pieces. As kids, we learned the verse groupings. Much later, I attended a 'single-passage' church. Very different. Basically, a few side-refs around a main text. My Bible software was early-on structured around verse-groups relative to beliefs. Logos Text Compare missed a boat on this issue.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1316672#Comment_1316672

In the Bible study builder, you can enter a new passage and still work on the same document. So while it will only look up references to one at a time, it can be employed to study multiple passages (and I have). I don't really see a better way to do it, since I wouldn't want to find only questions that are tagged with n specific passages. If there are questions about multiple passages, I want it to come up if I search for any of them.

You obviously aren't from a lectionary-based tradition. The first questions in many small groups setting are for much of the year:

What is the theme of the Gospel?
How does the first reading relate to the Gospel? (it is chosen for a similar theme of some sort)
How does the responsorial psalm respond to the first reading (or occasionally the Gospel)
Does the second reading happen to relate to the Gospel theme? or is it best to connect it to last Sunday's second reading (the second reading is usually a semi-continuous reading of an epistle)

The questions differ a bit for Advent, Lent, and the season of Easter where the organizational principles are different. And weekday readings are an independent cycle for Catholic but directly related to the Sunday readings in the Lutheran generated daily readings in the RCL daily cycle.

The multiple passages that are studied and preached on are integrated - not simply a string of the pastors' favorites. They are not only integrated within the day but they are integrated over time - and structured around the Gospel accounts. The Synoptic Gospels make up the three-year cycle for Sunday; but the all the Gospels also are read each year at the daily services. No matter what you are studying, it is instinctive to relate back to the Gospels.

Omitting the Office of Readings' cycle of continuous readings through the books of the Bible, this is the devout Catholic's Bible intake excluding the Psalms:

[quote]

It has been reported by Fr. Felix Just, S.J., that the Sunday and weekday Lectionaries contain:

13.5 percent of the Old Testament (not counting the Psalms)
54.9 percent of the non-Gospel New Testament
89.8 percent of the Gospels
71.5 percent of the entire New Testament