I must say that I am not excited about the new subscription plan. I am curious how anyone else feels.
For me personally, as more information has been released and I have gained a better understanding of where Logos is headed, I have grown more and more comfortable with the subscription model. I am to the point where if I had to pick, I would pick the subscription model over the previous model. There's a lot to like about it. But, obviously, plenty of people have a different opinion on the matter.
I don't like it at all. Instead of making the system/software itself better, we're just paying for AI, something that faithlife should do better with their bread & butter engine. I think using AI is a lazy cheap move, instead of creating something new themselves.
That's why they laid off most of their workers, which led to less innovations.
If you know how to do your basic search, you don't need AI stuffs.
As someone who has been a little outspoken about the Subscription "Only" path - I do believe that a subscription "option" is beneficial to a new customer base.
I will also give Logos credit for listening to customers (though in a lesser degree than some of us would like) and responding with at least the Legacy Fallback License.
That being said, I would still appreciate Logos revisiting their decisions in these areas:
While this process has been frustrating and the lack of clarity in many areas had some of us look back on the transition to L4 as a "cakewalk" in comparison - I have seen bits and pieces of attempts to improve by the current Logos leadership - to the level that I am trying to find reasons to give the "new" path a chance - but the concerns I have listed are deterring me at this time....
We may never truly know and there have been some comments that seem to have a "gray" / "between the lines" area - that there could be something holding back some decisions (Investment group expectations? Only they know for sure) - But I hope that in the same way the Last Chance Sale was extended after Mark and others argued for it, some of these other areas could use the same attention.
After all - we all want Logos Bible Software to be strong and fruitful - but some of us see forsaking longtime and newer users who prefer the traditional option as customers is not being fruitful, but leaving "seed" on the table and not planted in the soil. (Same with forcing your users to change their study method)
For those on Connect, it is similar to what we have had for the last couple of years, with hopes to be even better. It sounds like the coming features will be more focused on practical things. Hopefully, the regular income on a broader basis, will help Logos to continue to refine the software in practical ways. Every change has pros and cons.
You are the OP. I would like to hear your concerns.
I am curious how anyone else feels.
I'm fine with it ... no different from Now or Connect, if people like that sort of thing. I don't see subscribing, but then, I barely saw buying features the last few major updates. The features sort of tagged along with great books. The Logos10 sale was pretty nice.
My concern isn't 'me' ... I'm used to sitting on a version for years at a time. Still have Libby! But I'd assume with the UI differing between haves and have-nots, there's going to be a problem, just in shear confusion. Where's this?, Where's that?, How come I don't have? The video showed? It's not a good path forward for any company. I'd have to assume, at some point, either they just subscribe only literal features, or subscribe the whole app.
I've been on the new subscription plan for a while now and I've very happy with it.
I've been a Logos user for many years and although this is a change I've been very happy with how they've communicated everything and what I'm getting for my money.
As I said very happy overall.
Matt
I'd assume with the UI differing between haves and have-nots, there's going to be a problem, just in shear confusion. Where's this?, Where's that?, How come I don't have? The video showed? It's not a good path forward for any company.
I completely agree. Setting it up such that people are using a completely different UI is not a winning strategy long term. It will make trying to get/give help very messy. And the point with the videos is true as well. New help videos will have to be clearly marked to differentiate themselves from the Logos 10 help videos, or else they will cause more confusion than help to non subscribers.
In my view, migrating all users to the same UI is inevitable. I imagine the only reason the current path has been chosen is to provide a short-term incentive for the subscription.
Based on forums comments, it is frustrating to use in comparison.
It's not so bad. The new toolbar is still young (not even out of beta yet), hence many comments focusing on where it could improve. But there are things to like about it too. From what I have seen, it has been getting progressively better. There will not be much of a learning curve for users who are familiar with the old toolbar, as the new one is generally speaking more intuitive and better organized. The main problem to solve is efficiency concerns. From what I can tell the immediate strategy is adding additional hotkeys, which is a good start. But I expect we will continue to see improvements as time goes on.
As someone who has been a little outspoken about the Subscription "Only" path - I do believe that a subscription "option" is beneficial to a new customer base. I will also give Logos credit for listening to customers (though in a lesser degree than some of us would like) and responding with at least the Legacy Fallback License. That being said, I would still appreciate Logos revisiting their decisions in these areas: Allow the traditional purchase option - if the equivalent is possible via LFL - why not just offer the purchase and allow users to not be forced into features and books they may not care about. (AI/non LFL features and the temporary books) Forcing long time users/power users to relearn the software and be less efficient for the sake of new users - IE the Dynamic Toolbar and Insights Sidebar... (If the traditional toolbar is being maintained for non-subscribers anyways - allow it to be optional, rather than ruining the Logos experience for many. Based on forums comments, it is frustrating to use in comparison. We also have video evidence that the choice of toolbars is possible - leaving it as a choice, even if there is a little extra work - should be worth it to keep your long time customers happy with the product) Add a features only option, as we had with the Feature Set options of purchase - again, some users have no interest in the non-LFL features nor the temporary books. For some the option to gain just the features they can keep and spend more on libraries is much more inviting. (An option to buy/subscribe to just the LFL eligible features with a discount considering no access to AI or the temporary books would be a nice option) While this process has been frustrating and the lack of clarity in many areas had some of us look back on the transition to L4 as a "cakewalk" in comparison - I have seen bits and pieces of attempts to improve by the current Logos leadership - to the level that I am trying to find reasons to give the "new" path a chance - but the concerns I have listed are deterring me at this time.... We may never truly know and there have been some comments that seem to have a "gray" / "between the lines" area - that there could be something holding back some decisions (Investment group expectations? Only they know for sure) - But I hope that in the same way the Last Chance Sale was extended after Mark and others argued for it, some of these other areas could use the same attention. After all - we all want Logos Bible Software to be strong and fruitful - but some of us see forsaking longtime and newer users who prefer the traditional option as customers is not being fruitful, but leaving "seed" on the table and not planted in the soil. (Same with forcing your users to change their study method)
Well said, Frank. I have also been a vocal user and for good reasons like you mentioned.
I would still like to have the option to have both the subscription and traditional purchase option. I'm not bad-mouthing those who want a subscription but I still believe the majority of current users are the traditional purchasers.
I am glad they have listened some and at least there is a fallback option. But I also shake my head because in the end they are getting a large amount upfront from many as well as the subscription. I wouldn't have minded terribly to pay a $10 a month maintenance fee to keep Logos healthy and continue buying via traditional purchase. The industry really has changed and I can see the need for them to have some steady income just to maintain and improve.
Only time will tell how this works out for them.
I plan to pass on it.
As I approach retirement, I'm consciously trying to reduce the number of ongoing financial commitments I have, and the ability to make a one-time purchase rather than commit to a subscription has become a deciding factor in my purchasing decisions. For instance, earlier this year I bought DxO Photlab rather than Adobe Lightroom, simply because DxO has a one-time purchase option and Adobe doesn't. DxO has some unique features, and I'm happy with it - but Adobe Lightroom is the more mainstream product. I almost certainly would have bought Lightroom instead (and likely even paid more for it) if they weren't forcing everyone into a subscription model.
But that's just me, and my particular life situation. Others may prefer subscriptions.
If you know how to do your basic search, you don't need AI stuffs
I kinda agree with you, but I'm going to give Logos a chance and subscribe for 2 years. After 2 years, if they have not impressed me, I will simply unsubscribe.
Adobe Lightroom is the more mainstream product
I have been using Photoshop Elements for many years. And I have updated many times. But if they make it subscription I'll just stick with the last version I purchased [:)]
When it comes to photo editing, AI is really changing things. What used to be hard to do is easy now. I wonder if that will apply to Bible software one day?
For those on Connect, it is similar to what we have had for the last couple of years, with hopes to be even better
Having ALREADY subscribed to Faithlife Connect and Logos Now, I have not "purchased" feature upgrades for nearly 10 years. Subscription has 1) kept me totally current and 2) saved me money that I have used to purchase resources relevant to my needs!
Here is a thread with a link to a video showing how different AI searching can be from basic searching, especially for beginners to Logos.
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/225406.aspx
I find AI search and especially synopsis very helpful in my studies as it opens up my library more than I would get out of it from basis or "precise" searching. However, everyone's mileage will vary on its usefulness.
Like many on this forum, I was grumpy about the change... perhaps mostly because I am old and don't like change. I have however, been finding the response and flexibility from FL to be encouraging. I am now all about the upgrades. I have fund some of the AI features to be helpful. I also love the idea that I do not have to wait 2 years for upgrades... I find myself looking forward to the 6 week incremental stuff. I am at peace with subscribing.
I must say that I am not excited about the new subscription plan. I am curious how anyone else feels. For me personally, as more information has been released and I have gained a better understanding of where Logos is headed, I have grown more and more comfortable with the subscription model. I am to the point where if I had to pick, I would pick the subscription model over the previous model. There's a lot to like about it. But, obviously, plenty of people have a different opinion on the matter.
I like that, Aaron, you finally cleared up a lot of suspicions and doubts about the subscription case.
I don't like it at all. Instead of making the system/software itself better, we're just paying for AI, something that faithlife should do better with their bread & butter engine. I think using AI is a lazy cheap move, instead of creating something new themselves. That's why they laid off most of their workers, which led to less innovations. If you know how to do your basic search, you don't need AI stuffs.
I'm glad SOMEONE said it!
...Maybe it would have been more likely that someone would have said it if not for the layoffs.
Personally I don’t agree with this.
I am fairly conversant with Logos Precise search syntax but also find that Smart Searching enables searching for certain things much easier and more powerful.
Of all the hoopla, this one feature is the only one I can see that might have value (again, as far as I can see). The summarizing, etc (in my book) is inherently misleading (similar to an average, being unrepresentative of a distribution).
But as I understand it, the search itself is not AI; the ordering of results is.
That is correct - at least, the last I heard
Although the synopsis of those search results is AI-enabled. And this is, in my view, a really powerful feature.
I am happy with the subscription even though I am not interested in AL. Just for two reasons first of all I want Faithlife to be supported financially. secondly the subscription makes Faithife to realese more features in order to let the subscribers to continue with the subscription and at the same time they will work hard to influence more subscribers. Thiese makes me more excited to look forward.
But as I understand it, the search itself is not AI; the ordering of results is. That is correct - at least, the last I heard Although the synopsis of those search results is AI-enabled. And this is, in my view, a really powerful feature.
If Denise is referring to Smart Search, it is AI enabled together with the Synopsis. So I'm confused by your response.
I was intending to reflect what Mark said in https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221560/1289320.aspx#1289320
In Smart Search, we perform a very loose search without AI. That finds 50 articles that roughly match your query. We then use AI to identify a snippet from each article that most closely matches your query. We don't rewrite any text; we only identify the most relevant existing text in the book. Once we have these snippets, we use AI to re-order them to put the most relevant ones at the top.
Apologies for any confusion.
If Denise is referring to Smart Search, it is AI enabled together with the Synopsis. So I'm confused by your response. I was intending to reflect what Mark said in https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221560/1289320.aspx#1289320 In Smart Search, we perform a very loose search without AI. That finds 50 articles that roughly match your query. We then use AI to identify a snippet from each article that most closely matches your query. We don't rewrite any text; we only identify the most relevant existing text in the book. Once we have these snippets, we use AI to re-order them to put the most relevant ones at the top. Apologies for any confusion.
Both the question and original answer are confusing without the reference, as one could easily conclude that Smart Search is not AI enabled.
My observations:
While I'm not entirely satisfied with the current state, we must adapt to the changing landscape.
Leveraging Logos' Trustworthy Resources:
In an era of misinformation and poor theology online, Logos offers reliable materials for in-depth research.
Adapting to the Age of AI:
The fourth industrial revolution, driven by artificial intelligence, demands innovation and change. Logos must adapt or risk becoming irrelevant. Powerful AI features like Synopsis (smart search), Sermon Assist, and DeepL autotranslate, along with many others, can significantly enhance productivity.
Enormous Growth Potential:
With a growing user base (now exceeding 100,000), Logos has the potential to reach 1 million users within a few years. This growth could lead to substantial revenue.
Revenue Projection([:P]my imaginations):
Based on a hypothetical scenario, if Logos had 1 million users paying $9.99 per month, the total monthly revenue could be $9,990,000. However, this is a simplified calculation and actual revenue may vary due to factors like user churn and additional costs.
The Urgency of Adaptation:
Logos faces a critical juncture. The failure to embrace AI and innovate could have dire consequences, as illustrated by the decline of BlackBerry. It's a matter of "adapt or die."
Maybe I had a bad day or something stupid hijacked my brain. Just pray for me please.
My observations....
There is a lot to what you say. In the existing marketplace growing the user base and change are necessities. No software company survives without embracing and meeting these challenges. There will always be more growth potential at the basics or casual user end so the challenge for Logos will be in meeting the needs of the super-user at the same time.
As best I can figure, the plan (NSP) will benefit new users a great deal and long-time users much less. (I can see some benefits for old-timers as well, being objective, just not as much as new.)
This is a calculated gamble that will most likely benefit the company significantly. Disappointing older users won't hurt them much, as they've put thousands of dollars in the software already and are not likely to spend nearly as much in the future. If they sign up, Logos gets their monthly revenue. If they don't...sayonara; it was nice doing business with them.
Bringing in newer users on the NSP will ensure stable revenue and they won't fuss about the NSP the way the older users have. That's a win-win for the company.
Casting off us old get-off-my-lawn types will not hurt them a bit, I suspect. They already have our money.
"Casting off older users... they already have our money."
Gosh. I have been using Logos since Logos 2, so I'm a pretty long-term user, and I love Logos the way it is, and actually give thanks to God for Logos, because it is a blessing to me. But over the years I have observed that Logos keeps getting better, and when they occasionally mis-step, they try to make it better, and I trust their good intentions, and the pretty consistently good outcomes in improvements, over the years. Long experience gives me no reason to impute such dark intentions to Logos, and every reason to have confidence that Logos will continue to be better and better.
Sure, those of us who have invested a lot of time and effort (and money) over many years to use Logos, and are used to it the way it is, will have some work to do to learn new things, but that's how life is, and we've learned new things in previous versions of Logos, and it's not only been OK, it's just been better and better.
I can see how it makes sense to offer subscriptions, especially now that significant parts of the app will require online access, meaning that we'll be using Logos servers and software on them. It truly won't be the case, anymore, that we'll have purchased an app and just keep using it. We'll now be using online servers and online software, not just an app we bought some time ago. It seems reasonable to me, and my experience with Logos over many years, now, suggests to me that the future is very likely to be bright! I will be astonished if, when I try the new version, I do not find it an improvement, and the subscription model seems completely reasonable to me.
Well, sure! But no (real) complaints ... we'll be 'legacy' Logosians ... free ride (until a new PE anyway). My only complaint (ok, just one) is the current Logos is considerably more buggy than when I 'sat' on Logos7. Bug-iferousness may be an issue looking forward.
The fourth industrial revolution, driven by artificial intelligence, demands innovation and change. Logos must adapt or risk becoming irrelevant.
You will own no resources and be happy?
I already own Logos 10 gold with all features, academic pro, Logos 9 platinum; I spend a lot of money already and own a lot. I'll do it again if I had to. Better than waisting my money on cars or some kind of costly hobby. Subscription or not, doesn't matter to me. I use Logos a lot.
I plan to pass on it. As I approach retirement, I'm consciously trying to reduce the number of ongoing financial commitments I have, and the ability to make a one-time purchase rather than commit to a subscription has become a deciding factor in my purchasing decisions. For instance, earlier this year I bought DxO Photlab rather than Adobe Lightroom, simply because DxO has a one-time purchase option and Adobe doesn't. DxO has some unique features, and I'm happy with it - but Adobe Lightroom is the more mainstream product. I almost certainly would have bought Lightroom instead (and likely even paid more for it) if they weren't forcing everyone into a subscription model. But that's just me, and my particular life situation. Others may prefer subscriptions.
I plan to pass on it. As I approach retirement, I'm consciously trying to reduce the number of ongoing financial commitments I have, and the ability to make a one-time purchase rather than commit to a subscription has become a deciding factor in my purchasing decisions. For instance, earlier this year I bought DxO Photlab rather than Adobe Lightroom, simply because DxO has a one-time purchase option and Adobe doesn't. DxO has some unique features, and I'm happy with it - but Adobe Lightroom is the more mainstream product. I almost certainly would have bought Lightroom instead (and likely even paid more for it) if they weren't forcing everyone into a subscription model. But that's just me, and my particular life situation. Others may prefer subscriptions. I agree 100%! I am in exactly the same boat. I'm just a couple of years from retirement and trying to reduce monthly commitments. I am NOT a fan of subscriptions because they are all about money. Although I like the convenience of subscriptions the provider is in the driver's seat. The consumer always loses in the end. But maybe that is the real problem. Everyone wants God's word to be convenient. There is no substitute for time spent in the Word. God's Word is not a Google database that you ask a question and it spits out an answer. Also, I work in Hi Tech and I DO NOT trust AI. Already I have seen cases where AI steers you in the wrong direction.I have been using Logos for nearly 10 years. Most of that time I was using the Starter Base Package. Last year I upgraded to L10 Silver and the Full Feature Set. No regrets. It's probably enough to keep me busy the rest of my days. But that's just it. I'll have it for the rest of my days without having to pay someone a monthly fee.
Probably, the same for me, but I am not burning any bridges. Things change.
"Seems" to me, the burning bridge is in the next month or so ... which 'track' a person climbs on. After the track decision, then, the next decision is 'stay on track' (for the legacy-ownership of mostly UI/convenience features?).
The irony for 'me', is I have no need to 'get on track'; software works fine and they're mainly investing in newbie-use (which is good). But given, a not-on-track, then the next decision is similar ... the wrong-track expense discourages any lengthy continuance. Try a new feature out for a month or so, and then notice it's not worth it. That's what I do with all my subscriptions. Review and cut.
"Seems" to me, the burning bridge is in the next month or so ... which 'track' a person climbs on. After the track decision, then, the next decision is 'stay on track' (for the legacy-ownership of mostly UI/convenience features?). The irony for 'me', is I have no need to 'get on track'; software works fine and they're mainly investing in newbie-use (which is good). But given, a not-on-track, then the next decision is similar ... the wrong-track expense discourages any lengthy continuance. Try a new feature out for a month or so, and then notice it's not worth it. That's what I do with all my subscriptions. Review and cut.
Right. Change to subscription only is not likely to affect me in the short term. I already got L10 Silver. But what if a few years down the line I want to upgrade again? I am now forced into a lengthy subscription.
I am not totally opposed to a subscription model. But I am vehemently opposed to a subscription ONLY model.
the wrong-track expense discourages any lengthy continuance. Try a new feature out for a month or so, and then notice it's not worth it. That's what I do with all my subscriptions. Review and cut.
A real problem. Thus the need for loyalty incentives. Many companies (think entertainment) count/plan on having this type of fluctuation. Thus the emphasis on big releases from time to time to draw customers back for another round. But this is not what Logos is going for. They have made clear they are aiming for consistency and efficiency, which they believe will be better achieved through a subscription model because (one reason) they won't have to scramble to come up with a dramatic release every two years to incentivize people to buy again. Instead, they can better prioritize the things under the hood. I'm not sure how well this succeeds, however, without loyalty incentives in one form or another. People enjoy feeling that their loyalty has earned them something. Could make a big difference in customer retention.
I've been using Logos since Logos 2, and sure, I get that change is hard, sometimes, but over many years, now, in my view Logos just keeps getting better and better. Some of the new stuff isn't very important to me, but it's a great product that I'm willing to pay for. I am puzzled by the very strong reactions agains subscriptions. Logos Pro won't cost me as much as a Full Feature Upgrade, I think, or if it's more, it's not much more. And I use Adobe Creative Cloud, which costs something like $660 EVERY YEAR. Logos subscriptions are a bargain, and Logos is more important to me than Adobe products. Sure, I hated it when Adobe switched to subscription-only several years ago, because I used to buy a suite and then use it for many years. But the bottom line was simply whether it was worth it to me or not. I love the products, I use them to design, build and maintain my church's parish website, I don't want to have to go through a learning curve on several cheaper products, so I decided it's worth it to me. What's the point of being angry about it? Anger and resentment are spiritual poisons.
Some people in these forums have said there have been layoffs at Logos. If that's true, then it just makes me even more eager to support the people who bring me Logos, which is a blessing to me. If they need to go to a subscription model in order to keep this company productive and healthy, I'm all for it!
I've upgraded every time a new version has come out not because I am desperate to get the latest bells and whistles, but because I am grateful for Logos, and happy to support the company that keeps it going for me. I'm not sure I care much about AI, but my past experience with Logos strongly suggests that if Logos is doing it, it's probably going to be a useful tool. But I intend to subscribe, AI or no AI, because over these years Logos truly has been a blessing to me, and I'm happy to keep supporting Logos.
If you decide the new version isn't worth the price to you, don't subscribe. No problem! No need for anger, resentment, vehemence. If, one day, they offer something you're willing to pay their price for, pay it happily, and be at peace.
I am not angry about it. But I really dislike the direction. I also have an Adobe subscription. I bought the last CS6 some years back right before they switched. It's a love/hate relationship. I love the convenience of always having the latest and greatest but at the same time I hate being tied to a monthly commitment. Most of the time I don't use or even need the new features. But if I ever stop paying I lose the product completely. Therein lies the gotcha with subscriptions. Sure, Logos is attempting to address that with the LFL. But I would still have to pay for 2 years to qualify. And if for some reason I had to stop after 23 months. When I start up again I start from 0.
I was very hesitant to subscribe- but (yep, the preverbal "but clause") I took the leap, went MAX- I'll give them an honest try. So, far like what I see, though it will be a learning curve for this old dog.
The biggest thing for me is re-learning where somethings are at. But, I am learning.
This is a use and see experiment for me.
I'm not sure specifically what you are referring to here but I wondered if https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/29439681440525-Where-do-I-find-on-the-dynamic-toolbar would help with this?
it just makes me even more eager to support the people who bring me Logos, which is a blessing to me. If they need to go to a subscription model in order to keep this company productive and healthy, I'm all for it!
Makes me think of an idea: We should set up a trust fund for Logos-Future. Those who want could subscribe, adding payments to the Logos-Future fund. Subscription could be lower than normal subscription, or people could add more according to their calling. If the coffers spill over, Logos could use the trust fund to support scholarships or free/low-cost subscriptions to Logos for missionaries (etc.). Maybe we need a new thread for that.
The biggest thing for me is re-learning where somethings are at. But, I am learning. I'm not sure specifically what you are referring to here but I wondered if https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/29439681440525-Where-do-I-find-on-the-dynamic-toolbar would help with this?
Yes, it's the tool bars- my brain is going through a rewiring where to look. Thanx for link
Some people in these forums have said there have been layoffs at Logos. If that's true, then it just makes me even more eager to support the people who bring me Logos, which is a blessing to me. If they need to go to a subscription model in order to keep this company productive and healthy, I'm all for it! .... If you decide the new version isn't worth the price to you, don't subscribe. No problem! No need for anger, resentment, vehemence. If, one day, they offer something you're willing to pay their price for, pay it happily, and be at peace.
....
Theophan, I get the feeling you don't like non-subscribers to discuss non-subscribing? Keep in mind:
- Buying books makes money for FL. Enough that they were buying up whole companies. They're not poor.
- There's nothing that prohibits them from selling features. That was their choice.
- And change is fine ... the cheese is just not change for a PE.
it just makes me even more eager to support the people who bring me Logos, which is a blessing to me. If they need to go to a subscription model in order to keep this company productive and healthy, I'm all for it! Makes me think of an idea: We should set up a trust fund for Logos-Future. Those who want could subscribe, adding payments to the Logos-Future fund. Subscription could be lower than normal subscription, or people could add more according to their calling. If the coffers spill over, Logos could use the trust fund to support scholarships or free/low-cost subscriptions to Logos for missionaries (etc.). Maybe we need a new thread for that.
Or a suggestion>vote thingy.
I’m at the point where, if they launch a Verbum version, i’ll consider it. If they don’t, I won’t.
